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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/2/2009 4:36:43 PM | | I'm all for free range piggeries and chickens, but the animals will be subjected to more diseases and given stronger vaccines in order to survive. I'm not being negative here, that's just the reality those farmers have to deal with. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/2/2009 5:54:30 PM | ^^^ Sorry but that is not reflected in the real world. This is something I have done a lot of reading about and I can assure you that intensively farmed animals are far more prone to disease. They are given antibiotics regularly in order to overcome the increased risk of disease and infection that comes of overcrowding and unsanitary conditions, and injuries sustained due to in-fighting and stress and lack of exercise and lack of sunlight and fresh green grass. They have significantly shorter lifespans.
When I bring home ex-battery hens for rehabilitation, they are not well girls, and I wouldn't be yumming about an egg that came out of their ravaged and depleted bodies. They can barely walk and are covered in sores, and their red combs are white. They breathe like Darth Vader from living in dusty sheds, can't perch for the first few months, and if they live that long they usually suffer reproductive prolapse and require veterinary assistance. Never seen any of that in the chooks born and raised here.
And their eggs are like paper. With my other chooks, I can throw one of their eggs in the air, and it doesn't break when it hits the ground. See now that's an egg! 
My free range animals don't live on antibiotics unlike intensively farmed ones and they are not diseased. In fact, when it comes to the sheep, I don't even treat for flies...no chemicals on my sheep at all... and they have no problem. I just get them crutched and shorn in appropriate seasons.
Edit: Chooks are often taken to be these stupid robotic creatures. At one stage had an ex-battery hen who, unusually, survived for several years. She ended up a very healthy girl after a year here and was the boss. At some point, I bought home these new ex-battery hens. Now these new chooks were competition...for food and resources...and they were weak and pathetic. She could have taken them out with a single peck to the head. But what she did was stay by their side for a few days, talking to them like a mother hen does to chicks, and showed them where the water and food was and tried to encourage them to walk around. Then she would just sit with them and chat away. She was quite free not to be with them, so it was her choice. Somehow she recognised their plight, maybe their smell reminded her of her own past, perhaps she took pity because she'd been there.
She later went blind, and she also overcame that challenge in some of the most creative and intelligent ways. She had all these systems for finding her way around, plus a certain amount of memory from when she could see to go on I assume. She was quite amazing to watch. Some animals just stand out as being particularly bright, and to think of the 2 years this compassionate and intelligent bird spent in a tiny cage...well I just think it's awful.
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/2/2009 6:56:38 PM | Um, No.
Free range still incur these problems....
* Crowding is still a factor
* Predation from hawks, foxes and dogs
* Urban pollution from excess chook poo run-off
* Eggs less clean
* disease problems due to contact with the ground
* Cannibalism does occur
* Eggs are more expensive | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/2/2009 6:57:46 PM |
I'm all for free range piggeries and chickens,
Actually anyone considering ethical choices when shopping for meat would be best to completely disregard the term 'free range' there are no regulations on what constitutes free range, so long as the animals aren't confined to a single tiny cage for their whole life they can carry the label. There only needs to be some access to the outdoors for farmers to be able to consider there animals 'free range' this can mean anything from total access like Naamahs chickens, to, farms where the the animals are kept in grossly over crowded cages and barns and allowed a tiny amount of access to a small gravel out door area. So, many of the free range animals that we buy at the shops may well have only spent a few days in their entire lives in the outdoors.
'Australian certified organic' though not ideal, is a better label to look for, the criteria to become certified organic is quite well regulated and there is well defined conditions (such as how much space per animal) in which animal must be living under. Levels of chemicals used in farming practices are also regulated.
'Free range' is a loose undefined term used for marketing by helping us to have warm fuzzies without having to think too deeply.
Here's another good marketing term 'Organic Grain fed Chickens' the chicken are still kept in appalling conditions, they just get fed organically grown grain....among other things.
Personally I think sex is a much better marketing tool, at least we get to see some hot naked chicks. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/2/2009 7:18:07 PM |
Free range still incur these problems....
* Crowding is still a factor
* Predation from hawks, foxes and dogs
* Urban pollution from excess chook poo run-off
* Eggs less clean
* disease problems due to contact with the ground
* Cannibalism does occur
* Eggs are more expensive
Read Julian's post...most of your list is more to do with what it is they are allowed to call 'free range'. I am using the term as we all know it should be used, not as per the marketing spin-doctors.
Crowding...would result due to greed. I can recognise when my animal housing is at capacity.
Predation...In 9 years I have lost one chook to a python and one chook to a fox and one duckling to a bird of prey. Three losses out of countless boids that have done time at Naamah's farm. In all three cases, I learned, adapted, modified...because I give a toss.
Urban pollution...insufficient cleaning practices, not enough thought to secondary production options...chook poo from healthy chooks = Dynamic Lifter. People out my way bag horse/chook/sheep poo and sell it.
Eggs less clean...insufficient nesting facilities being provided. Besides, when it comes to human health, a bit of dirt or poo on the outside of a healthy egg is far less harmful than antibiotics on the inside of an unhealthy egg.
Disease...see 'crowding'. Animals will inevitably have occasional health issues, but a direct comparison of intensively farmed and proper free range animals will show you that the intensively farmed ones are far more prone to disease. It's a fact.
Cannibalism...see 'crowding'. When chooks are not stressed and crowded, they are quite nice to each other apart from occasional spats.
More expensive...and there you've nailed the thing people perceive as the real problem. Each of us has to ask ourselves if we are willing to pay a little more so as not to be giving our financial support for animals to be treated cruelly. It's a question of humanity, given that we place ourselves above other species. Some decide that part of being human is to not condone or support cruelty. Others deny it's anything to do with them or look for rationalisations. Others distract from the issue itself by getting angry at the ones who decided not to support cruelty...and call them 'animal libbers' and 'greenies', like that's a bad thing.  | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/2/2009 7:56:00 PM | I've had a go at keeping chooks here.... in night pens or just feral.... and they've all been taken over the years.... by whatever hunts chooks....
even the last standing "evil" big red rooster, that was a good survivor ...
was gone from the pen one morning, 6 ft high wire.... not a feather on the ground?... or prints on the ground.... or so much as a sound....
it's cheaper to buy eggs at the shop for a few bucks a dozen..... and the odd roast chook...
it was better when my neighbours chooks did their daily rounds of my place... and often laid some eggs for me if I spotted the nest early enough....
that all ended when they came down looking for all the eggs that were supposed to be in their pen.... I think the chooks are prisoners now.... sigh
or have been eaten too.... and the neighbours are buying their eggs now ....
less stressful... I reckon... you can get kinda attached to your chooks... and it's never a good feeling if they get taken... | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/3/2009 6:43:35 PM | Free range farms are not any healthier, nutritionally the meat is same. Compared to caged birds, free-ranging hens had more bacterial infections (the most common cause of death), more parasites, and more viruses. They were also more likely to become victims of violent pecking and cannibalistic attacks.
I'm not advocating caged birds here, just pointing out the obvious fact that while some of us get a nice warm fuzzy feeling buying free range eggs and meat, the truth is far from enlightening. I don't know much about organic aspects.
Hope you enjoyed your scrambled free range eggs with extra E. coli. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/3/2009 6:55:53 PM | ^^^ Just curious, do you have a source to cite for that, or is that your opinion? If it's quoted from a source I'd be interested to read it in its entirety. If it's opinion...obviously you are entitled to it, but it's easy to refute with facts.
Hope you enjoyed your scrambled free range eggs with extra E. coli.
Thanks. Very sporting of you to say.  | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/3/2009 7:02:09 PM | | Obviously you would wish to refute it, your whole argument is based on that. What's with the roll eyes smilie.... it can run rampant in a free range farm, or is that bacteria omitted in all your links? | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/3/2009 7:06:05 PM |
Free range farms are not any healthier, nutritionally the meat is same. Compared to caged birds, free-ranging hens had more bacterial infections (the most common cause of death), more parasites, and more viruses. They were also more likely to become victims of violent pecking and cannibalistic attacks.
sigh Yes you're right...mostly... but as I said in my last post there are no regulations governing what constitutes 'free range', so in some instances the free range farms produce healthier chickens but in most cases the term is used as a marketing tool.
From my own personal experience I can say that some free range chickens are much healthier, I lived on a free range chicken farm for couple of years and the chickens were healthy and happy, because they had enough space and their needs were adequately met. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/3/2009 7:10:00 PM | Obviously you would wish to refute it, your whole argument is based on that. What's with the roll eyes smilie.... it can run rampant in a free range farm, or is that bacteria omitted in all your links?
I would wish to refute it because I am interested in facts, and I have read enough to recognise that what you are saying is not backed up by evidence. Genuine free range produces healthier birds and eggs.
If you make a sarcastic comment I think I am quite entitled to roll my eyes.
I don't have any interest in getting into an exchange of pointless barbs with you, but would be interested to hear more regarding the topic...animals/animal intelligence/our treatment of them. If you have a source to cite for your earlier comments I would really like to read it. Do you? (Because as Jules says, it seems you are not reading about genuine free range.)
EDIT: RE: Post below: Glad that's been clarified then. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/3/2009 7:13:37 PM |
sigh Yes you're right...mostly... but as I said in my last post there are no regulations governing what constitutes 'free range', so in some instances the free range farms produce healthier chickens but in most cases the term is used as a marketing tool.
From my own personal experience I can say that some free range chickens are much healthier, I lived on a free range chicken farm for couple of years and the chickens were healthy and happy, because they had enough space and their needs were adequately met.
I agree that the birds are healthier in a free range environment, I had personal experience in both aspects(caged and free range) and free range is by far a superior method.
I hope the regulations are brought into play to see that this practice is better managed, regulated and scrutinized. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/3/2009 7:31:37 PM | E. coli was not a sarcastic comment!
"Genuine free range".... lol, now I've heard everything, my argument is litter-based and free-range systems compared to cages. Same point applies sorry, both types of farms are subject to what I have already stated.
There is no secret here, it's a point that has been made quite public. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/3/2009 9:14:27 PM | I happily admit to knowing nothing about chickens and the way they are farmed, so I had to Google up research to support Questios assertion that
Compared to caged birds, free-ranging hens had more bacterial infections (the most common cause of death), more parasites, and more viruses. They were also more likely to become victims of violent pecking and cannibalistic attacks.
And here is what I found... http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/free_range_chickens_more_prone_disease_study
"Free-range chickens are more prone to disease than chickens kept in cages, according to a study published in Acta Veterinaria Scandinavica. This also applies to all chickens kept in litter-based housing systems."
And this...
The authors emphasize that, because of the change in housing systems that occurred between 2001 and 2004, many of the farmers caring for these flocks lacked the experience and knowledge that would have prevented the higher mortality and disease rates. According to Fossum, “birds kept in indoor litter-based and free-range housing are more prone to disease but measures can be taken to counter this.” Fossum adds,“the health of Swedish laying hens kept in these systems has improved as the farmers have become more experienced in managing the new housing systems.”
So, these 'free range' health problems occur where farmers are unused to new systems of farming? But it's ok, because humans are so incredibly intelligent and we supposedly adapt to change and find new ways of solving problems. Though, I suppose if you find cage farming 'acceptable' there is no use putting grey matter to good use in adapting to change? | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/3/2009 9:34:45 PM | Sorry for double post, but I couldn't face all that re-formatting the quotes stuff... migraines make me lazy. Nothing a Bex, a cup of tea and a good lie down won't fix though. Anyways... I thought this link was worth a read in relation to the current debate: http://www.off-grid.net/2009/01/25/well-duh/
"Flock size was part of the problem, Fossum said. Cages held a maximum of 10 birds. But free-range flocks sometimes contained as many as 35,000 chickens. Even though these chickens had the freedom to hop outside and roll in the dirt, they were more likely to bump into each other, fight, and share diseases."
And this quote in relation to that statement...
"Ahhh, now this may be the problem, you think? Any time you have mega huge numbers of animals living together (as nature NEVER intended), you WILL have problems, disease, parasites, bacterial infections, excess aggression..."
Free range eggs? Well, I personally feel mis-led by the "free range" label and I don't quite feel so warm and fuzzy buying them now.  | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/3/2009 9:38:07 PM | | ^^^ Try researching 'organic' produce...or better still find someone with their own chooks and see if you can buy some | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/3/2009 9:42:11 PM | | i find this rather interesting....as i never knew about the "so called" free range stuff wasnt really that good......the ex's father kept a few chickens and they gave great eggs.....and i tend not to buy my meat from woolies or coles as i prefer my local butcher anyway....much better quality and better price...i might do some research into organic growers and producers......unless miss naamah would be willing to part with some of her animals produce?? lol | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/3/2009 10:01:25 PM | find someone with their own chooks and see if you can buy some
I wouldn't feel competent to look after my own chooks, but I might know a couple of people who would sell me a dozen eggs every now and then. Eggs that come from truly 'free range' chickens. For instance, have you got chickens? Could you post me an egg from Qld coz I wouldn't mind an omlette next week?
I'm a meat and egg eatin', milk drinkin' consumer and I think it's a shame that I can't buy these foods in good faith that animals weren't forced to endure a cruel life in order to provide for me. I would hope that one day the animal's interests were held in as high regard as my money at the supermarket checkout. It just seems to me that cruelty to any living creature, animal or human, is wrong... even if they are as thick as a coat of paint and dumber than Paris Hilton. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/4/2009 1:51:23 AM | | Not just birds but sheep . I go toa Community Lounge on a big main thru road and huge trucks CRAMMED full of poor bewildered sheep tear past all the time and the stench from these pissing themselves with terror sheep literally turned me against eating much meat . As I'm not a vegetarian , I scrabble round for any protein I can get . Humans are not humane . | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/4/2009 2:21:52 AM |
What's with the roll eyes smilie.... it can run rampant in a free range farm
What can run rampant ?......roll eyes smilies??.....damn them.
And here I was starting to think all my "Free range" money had gone to waste and I was now riddled with bacteria. Hearing the whole story certainly makes a difference....luckily.
Totally agree with you about the sheep trucks nevaagin, luckily we dont see many of them up this way, but the cattle train chugging past me is always enough to ruin my day completely.
To me the bird brains are the ones who cant see past the end of their noses and wont practise ethical consumerism...its not rocket science really. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/4/2009 3:28:52 AM | | As a dumb ass cement smoother ,i had the predicament of building a chook shed,an add on to the 5 already in operation.80mx 25m with a 2m pit running through the guts acting as a shit /waste tray.these chooks all of 18wks are laying eggs,fed whatever u need to get a chook to be able to perform this amazing feat? now my point!!!!!!!! the fertilizer /shit which has god knows what in it,is bought by a local landscape turnout ,mixed with topsoil and sold to the regular backyard vege grower/lawn/potplant grower .probably been goin on for ever, but as i maintain my vigil in concreting every surface i can find.i shudder to think that the next post will proably tell me the sugar cane that makes my rum is hydro cane,omg i might get some organic hemp rope and neck myself . | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/4/2009 3:58:11 AM | | hello... there is a species of crow in Japan that lost its natural food source through urban development. The council planted rows of a nut tree down the main road that the crow can not crack... so they wait at the traffic lights and when a car stopps they place the nut under the wheels.. when the traffic clears they eat up... the ability to adapt so quickly amazes me. Read some of the other comments here and alot of debate goes on whether and to what level animals have intelligence. I agree with you but I dont think that really is MY main issue and intelligence is subjective anyhow... The quickest processor in the world is not a super-computer but a squid that for defence can change its colour and shape. Saw them place one over a black and white checkered tank bottom( a pattern and colour scheme unknown to it) and in front of your eyes it became black and white checkered so quickly... I forget the speed at which it processes information and reacts but i remember it was way way quicker than any computer.. Anyhow to me intelligence has no bearing on whether you feel fear and stress and pain and alot of creatures we cultivate experience an entire life of this.... simple really... is that ok or wrong? Free range should not be an option but just the way its done. .. and for those who go with the humans being superior and **** the animals there are valid reasons to change your ways... pump young chickens full of steriods, watch em grow unnaturally fast, send em to KFC and feed em to your kids? | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/6/2009 5:31:40 AM |
The authors emphasize that, because of the change in housing systems that occurred between 2001 and 2004, many of the farmers caring for these flocks lacked the experience and knowledge that would have prevented the higher mortality and disease rates. According to Fossum, “birds kept in indoor litter-based and free-range housing are more prone to disease but measures can be taken to counter this.” Fossum adds,“the health of Swedish laying hens kept in these systems has improved as the farmers have become more experienced in managing the new housing systems.”
^^^ Thanks for digging out the whole story, LULT. I figured there had to be more to it and it was very interesting to hear where all that was coming from. Clearly in that case it wasn't the methodology at fault, but rather its application by particular farmers.
Someone far more scholarly than I, who looked into that study more thoroughly, has also explained to me (and I hope my basic translation does this justice) that the results of that particular study showed a much broader range in quality of outcomes than was expected or considered normal. So, whilst normally you might have only a slight variance between farms...I’ve been told that with this study, at one end of the scale, there were free range farms that were showing fantastic results much better quality than cages, and at the other end of the scale, free range farms showing terrible results, much worse quality than the cages. So when someone simply averaged out the results ... well it looked like the free range wasn’t as good.
In case I am not explaining it very well in words, I’ll give an example (bear in mind these are simplistic made-up figures based on ratings out of 10, purely to illustrate the concept I’m getting at...)
If there were three caged method farms: One that rated 6, one that rated 7, one that rated 8. ~Average would be 7.
If there were three free range method farms. One that rated 1, one that rated 5, one that rated 10. ~Average would be 5.3
So if someone merely presented those averages, without the background info...yeah, you would think, well caged must be better....
But hang on...with free range, one farmer got a 10. No caged farm achieved that. So all you need to do is teach the other 2 farmers how to replicate what that farmer is doing, and we then have three farms rating 10. A distinct improvement from the rated 6, 7 and 8 quality farms we had before. Ta da!
So as I understand it, that’s pretty much (a smaller scale version of) what has occurred in the interpretation of that research... and that’s why just looking at the averages in this case does not tell us the whole story. In fact, it would have been more accurate had they compared the best results from each category...to ascertain how the best of one compares to the best of the other, and therefore pinpoint the better method overall.
Anyway, when fully explained the results show that the ones getting it right, at the fantastic end of the scale, have proved what is actually possible...to produce far better quality products with free range than the cages ever managed to. It was the ones not doing it properly that were bringing the average down and giving free range a bad name.
So those of you who were about to throw that warm and fuzzy feeling out the window, maybe let it stay a bit longer...feed it some free range eggs for brekkie in the morning.
Anyhow to me intelligence has no bearing on whether you feel fear and stress and pain and alot of creatures we cultivate experience an entire life of this.... simple really... is that ok or wrong? Free range should not be an option but just the way its done. I totally agree with you Lex...shouldn't matter about being intelligent or not given that they feel pain and fear. It's just that I've encountered a lot of people who will just reject any notion of that an animal might suffer at our hands on the grounds that they are "just dumb animals", so I figured it was an angle worth discussing....in my mind, a myth worth debunking. Alex just seemed a really good example likely to appeal to even a few diehards who will only ever judge an animal's worthiness based on how much "like a human" it can manage to be.
I guess it would just be nice to think that some of those folk who currently feel really detached about cruelty to animals could realise that those "dumb animals" we cram up and scare the hell out of and cage and deny sunshine and earth and manipulate and injure and manhandle and transport, are actually experiencing all of that with the same degree of intelligence and awareness that a human child would, if you did the same scary and painful things to them. Just another angle is all. | |
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| Who are you calling Bird Brain?
Posted: 7/6/2009 8:41:26 AM | Thanks for this thread. It's been interesting and relevant to me. I don't like the idea of buying "free range" eggs that are a complete misrepresentation of what this implies and know now to look for the regulated labelling.
As for the intelligence question, I think the significance would probably be in learning the structure of the brain and how it relates particularly in medicine. The Frontal Lobe for example may be almost absent from a bird's brain, so cannot be entirely attributed with cognitive function. This is very significant in understanding extinct hominid species for a clearer picture of the evolution of modern civilisation.
For example, H.Erectus and H.S.Neanderthalensis exhibit quite complicated cognitive ability in the archaeological record, however due to the comparatively exaggerated development of the Frontal Lobe in modern H.S.Sapiens (signified by brain cavity shape), it is assumed all the significant development of modern civilisation and its concepts belong solely to modern humans.
Experiments like this done with Alex suggest this is not the case. And the assertion was indeed a contention to the strict archaeological record in the first place. Plus it achieves little more than to base social sciences firmly in anthropic principles, which is subjective to say the least (abberant behaviour for example, may be reasonable behaviour where it is neither criminal nor damaging, something many circles would challenge).
I do think this kind of research can help our political development, which would appear at some instances to lag well behind our technological. Not just to help animals and other life on Earth, but to help the way we treat each other too. Most political bodies as I see it are in severe need of some humility to something other than popular marketing, particularly in economic terms. | |
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