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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/20/2009 1:04:31 PM | I can't believe this stupid unfeeling lawyer crap.
What happened to doing what is right simply for the sake that it is the right thing to do?
I agree. The right thing to do is for both partners to follow their mutual agreement and if it needs to change, mutually make the changes and agree to the new. The right thing to do is for neither partner to break their agreement, regardless of what it is. When is component is broken, there is no longer an agreement.
Yes, breaking any of components of that were originally agreed upon is a violation of trust. Sexual or emotional infidelity, contrary to popular belief, is not the only way infidelity occurs, any component of the agreement that is broken with out mutual agreement is infidelity or "vow breaking".
It is better to be very specific in the agreement from the beginning and while those wonderful vows steeped religious traditions are nice, they are also quite vague. Better to be clear than be vague, that way there is no confusion what is expected.
Lastly, who decides what is the right thing? It seems that the decision as to what is or is not the right thing is to be made by the individual making it. That you or others deem something as "not the right thing" in no way makes it not right. It is simply "not right" for you.
Best,
ACP | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/20/2009 10:24:58 PM |
any component of the agreement that is broken with out mutual agreement is infidelity or "vow breaking".
sounds harsh; if you leave the toilet seat up, is she 'entitled' to have sex with anyone she pleases? Do you get a second chance or is it too late after the first offence?
Even if your partner 'deserves' it by whatever behaviour you deem unacceptable , committing adultery shows your lack of integrity, shows your character. Your faulty partner probably did not physically force you and your shiny new partner into position.
Whatever happened to the 'golden rule'? Even if you've lost respect for your unworthy partner, what happened to self respect? And what about the third person in, what exactly are you offering them besides lies and restrictions? Less than charming. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/21/2009 7:41:40 PM |
Whatever happened to the 'golden rule'?
Those that have the gold make the rules?
Self -respect is subjective. What makes you think that lies must be involved? It seems in all of these issues, what is agreed upon is established by the those involved. If the agreement is not to leave the toilet seat up, and it is left up, the agreement is broken, she is no longer bound to the agreement. Harsh? Perhaps. Yet, when the agreement is clear, there are no surprised and you keep or violate the agreement with full knowledge of the potential consequences.
Whether or not the arrangement is or is not charming is up to those involved. It is of no consequence to those outside.
Best,
ACP | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/21/2009 7:53:39 PM | Lifes a B**ch and then you die.... so lets make it harder than it already is? 
Staying in a marriage like that, becoming a liar and a cheat, being miserable and sneaky and all for the sake of not losing money? pfffffft... | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 5:29:48 AM |
What does a spouse (40's 50's) do if they have a cancer ill partner that can barely walk and eat for few years??? Stay celibate??? Divorce her???? Take good care of her/him and if need arises discreetly arrange a friend?
Has our " sex drives' become so important over everything else that this or any other reason justfies cheating?? No wonder I and many like me are so gun shy of the dating process nowadays.
My husband was very ill for several years before he died. No sex really since I was in my middle forties.........he died when I was fifty. He has been gone for over three years and I still miss him more than I can say. We had a very active sex life until his illness made it impossible to have sex. Did I cheat.......not on your life.
I loved him with all my heart. There was sooooooooooo much more to our marriage than the sex. I love sex, as much and definitely a lot more than many people. I missed it, but I loved him with or without it. The intimacy of a relationship or marriage is not all about the sex, but the closeness, the caring, being half of a whole.
To even make him think for one minute I would be interested in seeking out another man for a sex partner........or even a man to spend time with " because of my needs" would have shattered him.
SELFISHNESS is why people cheat........the h*ll with all the " reasons". There are none....if the love is still intact.
LOVE GONE.......???.......get out, or get out as soon as possible. I know people fall out of love, fire gone out at home, no intimacy, live like brother and sister, yaduh, yaduh.......but to have a man or woman proclaim to LOVE the one at home, and yet still be able to share such an intimate act with someone else is at best B u l l s h i t!!
There may be a feeling of not wanting to get caught, not wanting to lose the family unit, pretend to be upright , ....a million other excuses............but there is NO WAY a person that truly loves the spouse of SO can cheat!!!
Cheaters cheat because they CHOOSE to and they put THEIR so called needs and WANTS above eveything and everybody else!!
Call a spade a spade!! | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 9:31:47 AM | ICHI-BON
I felt so embarrassed when I read you posting. You had quoted my earlier comment.
I know when we love our spouses dearly, we can't picture ourselves cheating. I once loved my husband that way. Sadly today I cant say the same.
I have my best friend husband sick of cancer for 30 months, she didn't even go to the b/room if he needed something... she made her life's only purpose giving him all the care and love until his last day. I'm sure she thought exactly like you.
I don't ever want to justify cheating, ever...sometimes and since I'm not God, I want to understand it or explain it.
But yes, your posting touched my soul and I felt not adequate. My situation is of a bad marriage and I can blame both for it. Maybe my next step has to be getting the courage to divorce and this way i will be free to do as I wish to seek happiness....
Im just to scared to be alone. Money is not in the picture as an issue to stay.
I'm not being hypocritical, but you got me thinking. Some of my fierce beliefs have been questioned.
G. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 9:46:58 AM | | All I have to say is this.People take vows before GOD ALMIGHTY.If you do not honor those vows.Your a lier by all means.Use all the excuses you want,your still a lier.Your life is a lie,everything about you is a lie.Thats what is wrong with society.Its full of dengenerates and I refuse to be part of it. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 10:17:03 AM | | i did a ten year sentence got out with just the clothes on my back .....gave everything....no need to fight.....i want to be happy and knew what it was gonna take...cheating behind ones back is sin......but if its out in the open from the start a different story......a real cheat is a slimeball thats a player doesnt matter who hes with when opportunity come he takes...... | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 10:19:36 AM | I can't believe the crap am reading in this Forum.
Lawyer talks, rights and obligations, action-reactions, causa-effects etc etc
Wake up people! With that sort of mind frame, no wonder most of you are single and will stay that way unless your lawyer is present and a detective follow both members at all times, negotiating power and assets, applying vengeance and revenge, looking paranoiacly for "something" etc etc
What a disgusting world you guys must live in! and All of this is first based on the ME principles and nothing else! (well, fear for some too, but we enter the realms of defects...)
So she takes an hour to get dress instead of 10 minutes? is your life will stop? and who will die if the toilet seat is up instead of down?
Those are MINOR disagreements and yes, I agree that the other person should be more tote full , but hey! you want to have altruism from others and act selfness at the same time? Come On!
Is there anything in the universe worth losing integrity and self respect for? NO! So why cheating or lying? I tell you why people really do it: GREED. To obtain something that you do not have while not letting go what is deficient. Sure, the guy is an jerk, but the house we live in..Sure, she is cold as a fish in bed, but she take care of the house; and all of those pathetic excuses I hear everyday:
Self centered people who refuse to end or truly solve a problematic and prefer to indulge into a placebo or acquisition without realizing the true cost or impact of there decisions.
DHU! it is like saying there is Justice in laws! Or that rights and freedom do not come with obligations, responsibilities or even work; That one thing can take precedent over everything else and that it is justification enough for every negative actions or reactions.
A couple is made of 3 entities: 2 complete individuals and the couple itself. Yes there is mutual consent and agreements between the two, but also there is the tolerance and adaptation part that all couple must work on, without mentioning communication, TIME TWO as there is two individuals that form the third entity: the couple.
There is also a value to things, and some things like trust, integrity, self respect or honor; are priceless to have, easy to lost and cannot be bought back; either you have it or you don't.
Who is to decide what is right and what is wrong in those cases? it is not god, not laws, not even you! It is by morality, integrity, common sense (no pun intended), respect and justice. Those knows no age, wealth, religion, politics, locations or even social cast; they are universal, untainted and absolute.
Is cheating Ok by any of those? NO., not even by any standards or perspectives! | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 10:53:53 AM | | justify?...well I don't know...I was with a woman who broke up with me over and over..so i'd go out when we were broken up..just hangin out, a few meet and greets but no love...she ended up leaving me because i was a 'cheeter" ....turns out she had met someone online and had been in contact when w were still together....go figure | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 12:27:59 PM | Hey Just want-I see there have been lots of wonderful insightful responses, from equally wonderful folks on here. I don't need to repeat them-there is already much agreement as you can see for yourself in response and I concur!
I just wanted to humbly add the following-I feel like all of us inherently know when something is wrong or hurtful already. When folks are blinded to their own sense of right and wrong tho, it makes me wonder about that person, how and when did they lose hope/ faith in truth, goodness, fairness about life and their existence? In a sense, broken people unconsciously continue to act out and say " I am broken and I need healing to return to whole" This is part of the dynamic when men and women cheat and enable each other to avoid their own growth and maturity. Much to chew on ha. Happy ponderings to you :) | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 12:35:34 PM | | well i know it's just my opinion but i dont agree with cheating one bit. i mean guys suck sometimes and if he's really not happy then he would leave his wife. i personally value happiness over money so if he was truly unhappy then he would have left. maybe he just wants to have his cake and eat it too | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 12:45:39 PM |
Wow, hats off to you...Why do men get burned so badly? I can see child support, but alimony as well?? Perhaps I am a neive soul...I hafta say, if it were me, I am not sure how I would handle it. Never walked a mile in the shoe, can't say.
A long, long time ago (cue "Miss American Pie"), a husband whose wife cut him off emotionally and sexually could state that in front of a judge and get less punitive divorce terms.
The women of my generation insisted that this stop, and so it did. If you look through this thread, you'll notice that most of the people adopting a hard-line stance against the OP are in their middle forties or older. The demands of the women of my generation are, well, pretty much everything. It has also ever been so; that is the generation of women who really enjoyed calling men Male Chauvinist Pigs for opening doors for women and who now are frustrated that men are not courteous. It is a bad generation, and women in it half expect the new liberation of women and also half expect the old deference of men toward women, without, of course, giving said men any credit, empathy, or respect.
You and younger people are in an interesting but unenviable position of cleaning up from the mess the unthinking members of my generation and somewhat older left for you. At least, however, you don't remember from personal experience the old days, so you might have a chance at rebuilding based on equity rather than convention. The women of my generation, however, are lost. They expect the moon and the stars in exchange for hurling turds. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 6:57:17 PM | RosiaG
Dear, my post was not meant to embarras anyone. I feel your pain, I have been in a marriage before that was a living hell. He was a literal millionaire, he thought his money meant he owned me also. When I left, I took two kids, two carseats, and what I could get in the back of a Toyota, .....told him to keep the rest..........that he needed it worse than I did. In fact I told him I was a better man than him,and I would prove it to him!!
Talk about bull headed.......yeah I am!!
Many times I regretted only that I didn't force him to make some kind of agreement to help my kids thru college. He was a snake.............still is.
But the afraid of being alone. I am not going to even pretend it was easy.
But once you get past most of the pain...........I was happier living in a house that was in a bad area, needed extensive repair, and I ate many meals that I would regergitate at now, but the funny thing is..........AND I mean this with all my heart.....I was happier than I ever was with him.
Don't let what you fear drag you down..or make you stoop to his level. You are worth soooooooooooooo much more than that!!
There are MEN out there........not just males pretending to be one.
My late husband Ray was a wonderful man , I mean a jewel of great price..........different from my first husband as night and day!!
I wished all my life I had met and married him when I was younger!
I raised my kids basically alone. My ex told them all there lives they would amount to nothing. He refused to give them any of the advantages because they were WITH me.
My kids put theirselves through college because I couldn't.
My son is an E-8 Master Sargeant in the Army, graduated four year degree in two...and...my daughter , even though she is a brittle diabetic, her and her husband adopted my grandson ( on my profile.yeah I am PROUD), she is a teacher, works part time as a manager at Target in Indiana, lives in a brand new house built for them, etc.
My kids, including my daughter Heather,she is mine not by blood, but by heart,........... are all " johnny on the spot" if I need them...
I have told them so often that I am so proud of where they came from, and what they made of themselves................so much more than I ever accomplished. But they all tell me that they get their strength and grit from me! My son evens tells his troops, if you think I am tough..let me get my mom!!
That is my claim to fame. I shudder to think what kind of people they would have been if I had stayed with their dad for the safety of not being alone!!
NOW he is proud of them and calls them HIS children. If you are that unhappy....get out!!
Cheating is not the answer. You ruin your own soul when you do that!
Best wishes!! | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 9:07:59 PM | Ichi-bon,
By no means I thought you meant or intended to make me feel bad. I must tell you I have been battling with my actions for months. I just came from a 40 day visit to my Mom back home ( South America). This visit has shown me that there is nothing better than the pure love. At the same time I feel I don't have that. My love for hubby is tainted by infidelity and too much lack of respect from both parties.
There is a lot I can't really post here, it is just too long and somewhat private.
Nothing justifies infidelity. Now I know, or better said now I accept it. Unfortunately I already took that route, and yes...it only wore out my soul. You cant even imagine how bad I felt when I saw my sister and her family...and in general all my family.
Anyhow, I feel empowered, and husband is not wanting to file the divorce, he wants me to do it and this way it all staled. I think he is planning something...he is not a bad person but he can be vengeful. I want to be free to find happiness, alone or in someone's company.
By the way, I worked so hard all my life and we did accomplish financial peace, which is better than financial wealth. Presently I decided to take time off, it's been 18 months.
There were circumstances at home that didn't allow me to work. Real big and real major and this also added to my need of taking time off. To give the next step I must get at least a part time job. I applied to one. I'm a well prepared person, but something mentally is preventing me to look for a job. Hopefully the empowering will also work there.
I don't need much to live, a small place and a car.
Thank you for the good and clear advice...its much appreciated and registered.
G. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 9:31:11 PM | | honestly...this life isn't a dress rehearsal..money is probably one of the very most pitiful reasons to stay together. I'd rather be poor and happy than that person who waits perpetually for .....'til it shines' | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 9:39:48 PM | Look OP, there is no justification for cheating, anyone who says there is justification is really f*ckin naive or just plain stupid.
Man has worked very hard for many years, nice house, kids, material possessions, etc, but has no intimacy at home. Chooses to stay in the marriage as he knows the alimony will crush him, she stays home, raises kids, and he will lose half of everything he has worked so hard for. So he seeks intimacy outside the marriage. Bullsh1t, because the loser picked the wrong mate so he's worried about alimony?? if the idiot gets caught I think Alimony will be the last thing he would worry about.
I absolutely hate admitting this...BUT...I can actually see their point? Any opinions would be appreciated. if you agree with that, well that tells me the kind of person you are, there is no justification for cheating, youre unhappy in the relationship, either fix or get out, this bullsh1t about alimony and taking half, guess what happens if she catches him, or worse yet he brings home a gift that keeps on giving, I hope the spouse doesnt catch it. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 10:03:43 PM |
Man has worked very hard for many years, nice house, kids, material possessions, etc, but has no intimacy at home. Chooses to stay in the marriage as he knows the alimony will crush him, she stays home, raises kids, and he will lose half of everything he has worked so hard for. So he seeks intimacy outside the marriage.
Both partners will lose what they have worked for. At least the guy (in your scenario) has a job. The wife who stays home with her children for years cannot be expected to walk into a good paying job. She will need some support. Divorce is hard on both parties, but if you are truly not happy and want out, be prepared to pay. Divorce is something you buy, and it is expensive.
Being a cheater is low down and dirty, and I have no respect them. BTW, it isn't only men who feel robbed of intimacy in their marriages. I have lots of women friends who say there is little connection between them and their mates. Most of them see leaving as a preferable option to cheating, although I also know some women who have cheated. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 10:07:44 PM | I’m on the side of the "no justifications for cheating" BUT...just because it's unjustifiable does it make it wrong or right? Religion is unjustifiable; war is unjustifiable does it make either right or wrong? Look around you, people still kill in the name of peace, people still live in fear in the name of religion..We don't look at either case as being cheated on, because we've bought into the idea...it's become 'normal'...Do you honestly think we would be so devastated by a cheating partner if we grew up not believing in monogamy? The answer would most definitely be NO, so what makes cheating hurt so much? I believe it hurts because it goes against our ingrained BELIEFS...So do we point the finger at our cheating spouse, or should we point the finger at our own set of beliefs?
Disclaimer....I'm just looking at things from a completely different perspective, I, like everyone else would ALSO feel a sense of despair if I was cheated on... | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/29/2009 11:32:07 PM | "Do you honestly think we would be so devastated by a cheating partner if we grew up not believing in monogamy?"
Two thoughts:
- If going elsewhere was OK, it wouldn't be cheating. Same concept when you break up first.
- A non-believer should not agree to monogamous relationships. Oh, and I read that polyamorous people can be cheated on, too (not an expert myself, just stating).
Yes, I think every person who is lied to hurts. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 12:20:37 AM |
- A non-believer should not agree to monogamous relationships.
Sure...but are they agreeing to never change? And in that same agreement are they accepting the wishes of the person who decides to leave the relationship without any repercussions? So hypothetically will my partner accept that there may come a time where I may no longer want to be in this relationship? If the answer is yes, then will it also be written in the agreement that he will have no emotional anger or revenge when the time comes for me to walk away?" But but but....how can that be"? You ask, "Off course he's going to hurt and be angry, it's only natural"......Yes, it is only natural, but isn't changing also natural? Don't we naturally change over the years? How can I be expected to keep my end of the bargain, remain monogamous when change is inevitable? Just like pain is unavoidable? | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 1:42:11 AM | | Well spoken. I would like to add that What is wrong with making your word a bond?Why would i want to be with someone that i couldnt believe what they emphisized to me and we both agreed on. as in specificly dating as a couple as my last experience she was waiting on her anulment we were dating for over a year and she had gotten a $9000 ring from me too.we were always together. i held her high.Then of all things Get this shes been on POF on her blackberry i think she contacted every one in 10 states. well no harm no foul i asked her what was up she stated harmless fun when board. i went over to her house like she had asked me to do that morning to mow the grass . and i had stayed there till 4am went to work got off at 11 went there shes not there wont answer phone and the computers still running with a screen shot of map quest directions to a local hilton hotel.its not like we were married are anything she said. this after all is the same person that layed in bed with me every night .since we both are catholic and she stated when we met i have to have aman that lives by gods rules . i only got sex about 2 month and every time it straight to confess and she made me feel even guiltyer by saying woman arnt objects and on and on you get my point.to wind it up some people just crack under pressure do you forgive are do you forget? | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 3:25:25 AM | "are they agreeing to never change?"
"accepting the wishes of the person who decides to leave the relationship without any repercussions?"
Sure. And I'll agree to a lot more because in 5 minutes I can change my mind and not be bound by my word. You make it really easy for me to live a single life in a 'committed' relationship and not feel bad about cheating on you. I'll just print out your last post and frame it above the bed.
Sorry, that is not how I work. Get out at any time. Agree on changes to the agreement. But don't think of changing terms one-sided and without letting the other one know. And to anticipate the next loophole: If he agrees to Italian (thinking of food) that does not give you the right to do Sylvester Stallone... | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 4:22:29 AM |
Sure. And I'll agree to a lot more because in 5 minutes I can change my mind and not be bound by my word. .
Wolftxus...You've totally missed the point of my post. My post IS reality, not what I want, not what most lovers want..But never the less it is reality. The biggest promises can be broken, do we sit there in despair and cry about a cheating partner or do we come to terms with understanding that no matter how big the promise people DO change....wants, needs, desires all change. I don't think it's the "cheating" that hurts people, as much as it's our expectations that our partners will always remain the same that really hurts....perhaps if we stop making our partners feel so guilty about the inevitable changes that are likely to occur they wouldn't feel the need to cheat, they would feel comfortable to end things without having to face the guilt of cheating...
Sorry, that is not how I work. Get out at any time. Agree on changes to the agreement. But don't think of changing terms one-sided and without letting the other one know.
And this is EXACTLY my point, would you allow them to be comfortable enough to let you know when they decide to change the agreement, or will you make it virtually impossible for them to do so, that they feel the need to do it behind your back?
You make it really easy for me to live a single life in a 'committed' relationship and not feel bad about cheating on you. I'll just print out your last post and frame it above the bed
On that same post you're going to frame, can you add this bit in too....
Cheating is CAUSED by the fear of guilt....If we allowed people to come and go into our lives voluntarily without giving them the 'guilt treatment' there would NEVER be a need to cheat...
Once again, I do NOT condon cheating, but I do condem guilt treatment towards people's choices. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 5:04:12 AM |
Man has worked very hard for many years, nice house, kids, material possessions, etc, but has no intimacy at home. Chooses to stay in the marriage as he knows the alimony will crush him, she stays home, raises kids, and he will lose half of everything he has worked so hard for. So he seeks intimacy outside the marriage.
I am hearing this so often, as a single person, I ask, why do u stay? The above reply is what I hear.
I absolutely hate admitting this...BUT...I can actually see their point? Any opinions would be appreciated.
If there wasn't a valid point this thread wouldn't be 12 pages long. Sometimes people's aversion to things is an attempt to convince themselves of an automaton morality about it.
The US bible belt is well publicised. It is fairly likely for irrational morality to appear in US culture.
The "above reply" is not only a matter of clear reasoning, it is also a very common circumstance particularly among US e-friends I'm in correspondance with.
It happens less in Australia because we don't have alimony and divorce settlements are far more conservative affairs, essentially there is only child support payments to worry about and these can be negotiated against demonstrable income and the reasonable cost of living.
There are far fewer reasons to become trapped in an undesireable marriage for financial reasons here. But it is a very simple and very real threat that without careful planning for personal financial security prior to and during the marriage one can stand to lose their life savings and all they have struggle for their entire life, and a vindictive and selfish spouse could use this as ammunition or even simply emotional currency against them. Hence they find themselves trapped in an effectively abusive situation, nonetheless would be far worse for them if they took the financial hit of a divorce settlement and alimony in the US.
Given this is a horror story not quite typical and certainly not as common as it is likely to be used for justification of cheating in a marriage (the real reason being simple laziness and cowardly behaviour), however it does happen pretty much exactly like this, I know of one such individual personally who is caught in precisely this kind of predicament. And yes they haven't seen sex for nigh on ten years and damned if they aren't lonely for intimacy and seeking it incognito. And I say more power to 'em!
I support this individual I reference for example, fully. | |
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