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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 6:08:36 AM | Rosiag, it's been interesting to read your latest posts on this topic as you know I've followed and posted to this thread for some time. You said you just recently came back from an extended stay with family---I'm happy to hear that you're feeling empowered to make changes---floundering a bit on your resolve is not an 'end' point. I think that you are still in a 'process'...of working through this....so take your time and don't beat yourself up for what seems like a set-back.
A few comments on some recent posts...
Whatever happened to the 'golden rule'? Those that have the gold make the rules? Self -respect is subjective. What makes you think that lies must be involved? It seems in all of these issues, what is agreed upon is established by the those involved. If the agreement is not to leave the toilet seat up, and it is left up, the agreement is broken, she is no longer bound to the agreement. Harsh? Perhaps. Yet, when the agreement is clear, there are no surprised and you keep or violate the agreement with full knowledge of the potential consequences.
^^^Agree ACP.
"Do you honestly think we would be so devastated by a cheating partner if we grew up not believing in monogamy?" Two thoughts: - If going elsewhere was OK, it wouldn't be cheating. Same concept when you break up first. - A non-believer should not agree to monogamous relationships.
^^^To AA's question "No."
^^^Wolftus agree with your points.
There are far fewer reasons to become trapped in an undesireable marriage for financial reasons here. But it is a very simple and very real threat that without careful planning for personal financial security prior to and during the marriage one can stand to lose their life savings and all they have struggle for their entire life, and a vindictive and selfish spouse could use this as ammunition or even simply emotional currency against them. Hence they find themselves trapped in an effectively abusive situation, nonetheless would be far worse for them if they took the financial hit of a divorce settlement and alimony in the US.
^^^While I can see the side of the OP's assertion that of the man staying to avoid financial ruin---it does support an emphasis in NA culture that securing the financial nest is worth living some half life in a relationship and never fully leaving...never fully able to invest in another relationship with another. Money trumps love for some. That, would seem to me to be the real loss here for each to cling to the 'wrong' thing...thinking all along that this was the most important....
honestly this life isn't a dress rehearsal...
^^^I don't think everyone got the memo...sadly.
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 7:25:29 AM | My husband was very ill for several years before he died. No sex really since I was in my middle forties.........he died when I was fifty
My condolences on your loss. Loss of a partner death or divorce is very difficult.
He has been gone for over three years and I still miss him more than I can say. We had a very active sex life until his illness made it impossible to have sex. Did I cheat.......not on your life.
I loved him with all my heart. There was sooooooooooo much more to our marriage than the sex. I love sex, as much and definitely a lot more than many people. I missed it, but I loved him with or without it. The intimacy of a relationship or marriage is not all about the sex, but the closeness, the caring, being half of a whole.
Having sexual needs and desires without an acceptable outlet is challenging for most people. When libido is inhibited, due to illness, emotional and psychological influences, or the natural progression of human development in the lifespan that affects libido temporarily or permanently, the challenge is less complicated. When one partner is not experiencing any of these challenges, it becomes exceptionally challenging. While masturbation is an acceptable outlet for some, research indicates that it is a short term solution as the experience is much less fulfilling as those experiences that include intercourse with a partner.
It is true that marriage is not all about sex. At the same time, sexual interaction, sexual intercourse is an integral component in a relationship regardless of the legal status. It is primarily through sexual intercourse and sexual interaction that men connect (attach and reattach) to their partner, more so than than females who seek emotional connection (attachment and reattachment) before sexual activity.
While sexual interaction and intimacy are requirements at some level in relationships between partners, love and sexual activity are not mutually exclusive. One can love without sex or with sex. One can have have sexual interaction without love or with love.
They function as elements of boundaries and are connected and not connected through each individual's intellectual capacity to do so. Some individuals recognize and make a distinction between love (emotional attachment) and sex (physical interaction with body parts between individuals). In most relationships, regardless of legal status, there is a combination of emotional attachment (love) and physical interaction (sex). Society has created and promoted myths around love and sex promoting the idea that they are inextricably intertwined. This idea continues to be promoted despite the fact that empirical evidence clearly falsifies these myths.
The idea that "cheating" only occurs around sexual behavior is a falsehood. Cheating, by definition, is an intentional violation of the rules of fair play. The rules of a relationship include much more than mouths, breasts, penises, anuses, and vaginas. They include all of those elements to which partners have agreed. It is both humorous and fascinating how violations of the elements of these agreements made by partners in relationships are more or less egregious based on some invisible barometer contained in the minds of those making the agreement. Sadly, most relationships have few clearly defined elements and rely on ambiguously worded verbal contracts called "vows". The fascinating aspect of "vows" is that seemingly, the aspect that seems to be invoked as a non-negotiable violation is that of sexual infidelity. Yet, the rest of those elements contained in predominantly traditional wedding vows that broken and are the elements that tend to lead to sexual infidelity are ignored or overlooked. With few exceptions, if sexual infidelity occurs (without a partners permission) one will find several other elements of those "vows" were violated prior to the "act".
In my opinion, too much emphasis is placed on the depth of intimacy and physical interaction (sex) in contrast to the emotional attachment, and friendship, which is what research suggests is the glue for successful long term relationships (if that is your measure of success).
Sex and emotional attachment is indescribable. Sex without emotional attachment is fantastic release with a host of emotional, psychological, and physical health benefits for all involved.
SELFISHNESS is why people cheat........the h*ll with all the " reasons". There are none....if the love is still intact.
This is patently false. There are a variety of reasons people break their multiple relationship commitment vows of which selfishness is only one of several. The attribution of selfishness to the cheater in this suggestion fails to recognize the selfishness that exists in the other partner that encourages the violation of one or more of the elements of the vows. Further, there are a myriad of behaviors by one or both partners that invite seeking to have needs met outside of the primary relationship. Love (emotional attachment) does not eliminate or substitute for these needs. Love (emotional attachment) is but one context through which needs can be met and is not the sole mechanism or context in which they must be met.
LOVE GONE.......???.......get out, or get out as soon as possible. I know people fall out of love, fire gone out at home, no intimacy, live like brother and sister, yaduh, yaduh.......but to have a man or woman proclaim to LOVE the one at home, and yet still be able to share such an intimate act with someone else is at best B u l l s h i t!!
Again, an assertion with not basis in fact. Depth of intimacy is not measured by any specific act along the spectrum of intimacy. Any intimate encounter, regardless of where it falls on the spectrum can be "such an intimate act" and is not exclusive to physical sexual interaction.
Partners "fall in and out of love" frequently. The foundations of relationships that are mutually fulfilling and are lasting are those that are based on a strong friendships and understanding and accepting their partner(s) as people. Emotional highs and lows (in and out of love) are not good indicators emotional attachment and relationship success.
While your personal opinion is that sexual interaction and love are inextricably intertwined and that is how you function as a human being and in your relationship does not translate as a template or way of being for all other human beings. There's nothing wrong with holding your personal view and viewing your relationship functioning preferences as the best for you and considering having a relationship that separates love (emotional attachment) and sex (physical sexual interaction ) as "B u l l s h i t". Imposing your belief held through your personal lens of bias on other individuals is not okay. Every relationship is unique, is mutually constructed and negotiated by the individuals in them. Those relationships that are constructed and negotiated differently than your preferred relationship construction are not "B u l l s h i t". They are only "B u l l s h i t" to you and those who hold views that similarly align with your own.
Best,
ACP | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 7:36:31 AM |
All I have to say is this.People take vows before GOD ALMIGHTY
Some do. Some do not. It is only applicable to those who subscribe to a views that include a monotheistic paradigm. Other's do not. regardless, whether one does or does not, break one vow, break them all. For those who follow a Judeo-Christian philosophy, it seems that this is not a new idea, e.g. if you break one commandment, you have broken them all.
Thus, the contract is null and void and those involved are now at-risk of experiencing the natural consequences for that violation (s).
Best,
ACP | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 7:43:04 AM |
While I can see the side of the OP's assertion that of the man staying to avoid financial ruin---it does support an emphasis in NA culture that securing the financial nest is worth living some half life in a relationship and never fully leaving...never fully able to invest in another relationship with another. Money trumps love for some. That, would seem to me to be the real loss here for each to cling to the 'wrong' thing...thinking all along that this was the most important....
I do understand, appreciate and applaud this sentiment, truly I do. But the simple reality is, well some of us come from harsh backgrounds and in my time with a very real threat of permanent vagrancy I did meet a great many very good men, vagrants, financially broken and abandoned for their various loves and idealism and vested on a one way ticket to liver failure trying not to think about it. The exprience actually gave me the strength to pick myself up from a very long history of homelessness and even though I didn't believe I could do it, holding down a job whilst sleeping in parks, showering in local clubs and gyms, eating enough to starve a sparrow and working harder than anyone else in the workshop (partly because I didn't want to have to leave work where I didn't feel like a homeless dude, after work of course again I am a homeless dude)...
I could turn this into a book and it's beside the point which is...good values are very important, they're wonderful when you can afford them or can land a feller or a job to afford them for you, hey and on the streets even some fellers will land fellers to afford them, you know what I mean?
The point is good values are wonderful when you can afford them but there are entire hordes of vagrants in parks and sleeping on roadsides or up the railway tracks who simply weren't in a position to afford their good values.
And they're really nice guys (okay personality disorders aside but that's circumstantial). Some are in fact quite talented.
So I learned some of my values about manhood. They're a little different to just having good morality. They also involve determined responsibility. And one, of equal importance to any other, is the responsibility we each have to ourselves.
Get altruistic about it if you want, leave your purse by the table first if you don't mind though. Cast off your worldly possession and go find Christ, feel what it's like to be crucified, vilified, ostracised, incised. The written word will call you hero, the world will call you feral.
Nobody cares why you ended up where you are. Just that you're there. It's a truth. So make sure you wind up somewhere okay first, deal with whatever second.
This is what you just have to do when a marriage degeneracy threatens to take all you have, everything, and change your lifestyle to something far less desirable, one you fought up the stream for. Firstly you might not ever make it back. Secondly the fall could be further than humane.
Good values are wonderful, when you can afford them or they are afforded for you. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 8:22:00 AM |
While I can see the side of the OP's assertion that of the man staying to avoid financial ruin---it does support an emphasis in NA culture that securing the financial nest is worth living some half life in a relationship and never fully leaving...never fully able to invest in another relationship with another. Money trumps love for some. That, would seem to me to be the real loss here for each to cling to the 'wrong' thing...thinking all along that this was the most important.... I do understand, appreciate and applaud this sentiment, truly I do. But the simple reality is, well some of us come from harsh backgrounds...
...the point is good values are wonderful when you can afford them but there are entire hordes of vagrants in parks and sleeping on roadsides or up the railway tracks who simply weren't in a position to afford their good values.
I especially found this poignant...
So I learned some of my values about manhood. They're a little different to just having good morality. They also involve determined responsibility. And one, of equal importance to any other, is the responsibility we each have to ourselves.
Get altruistic about it if you want, leave your purse by the table first if you don't mind though. Cast off your worldly possession and go find Christ, feel what it's like to be crucified, vilified, ostracised, incised. The written word will call you hero, the world will call you feral.
Nobody cares why you ended up where you are. Just that you're there. It's a truth. So make sure you wind up somewhere okay first, deal with whatever second.
^^^There's in particular a harsh truth with the line immediately above...
You're right of course and I see that now. There must be an inherent responsibility to 'self' first to ensure our needs too in what you term 'marriage degeneracy'....I have never quite had an opportunity to think on it from this perspective...more times than not, it comes across as an overarching attempt at greed---in some instances it is of course simply that. Some of the men that I've met subsequent to my own divorce are of the ilk to ensure that both parties were 'settled' and more importantly, fairly so in their own marital degeneracies...it made me think of them especially fondly for being so. Anyway, thanks V. I learned something. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 10:26:53 AM |
Rosiag, it's been interesting to read your latest posts on this topic as you know I've followed and posted to this thread for some time. You said you just recently came back from an extended stay with family---I'm happy to hear that you're feeling empowered to make changes---floundering a bit on your resolve is not an 'end' point. I think that you are still in a 'process'...of working through this....so take your time and don't beat yourself up for what seems like a set-back.
Sweetest
Thank you for the advice...I am reading and thinking and im trying to picture myself divorced and free...full of energy to start a new life. I feel soon I can go to downtown Dallas and file the divorce papers. It will be painful, but I think I want to never give up on love and at this point I'm at a point of now return in my marriage. 20 years invested and soon gone, but at least maybe I will be more at peace. Lots of those years were good, I have to say.
I went to church today and specially pray for guidance...I have faith that God will show me the way.
Thank you! | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 11:58:48 AM | Argentum Crinis Philogus
I read all of your replys to my post.............however long...and I stand BEHIND all of what I wrote before.
SELFISHNESS can begin with either party, that is true, but NOTHING, NOTHING justifies cheating, going outside of the relationship for one's own gratification.
I know there are "open relationships" .....but then they would not be considered "cheating".
Open communication between partners of any legal standing is the key to a wonderful relationship. Usually when a union is broken.........again selfishness....one or the other is so intent on getting their own way, that there is no leeway or room to compromise....or give preference to the other partner. I don't know about all marriages , but ours worked so well because we honestly truly preferred the other to ourselves. If my husband was hurting, I was hurting, if he was happy, I was estatic,........call that what you will, but it was amazing how love works when you care more for the other than yourself....when you are willing to say...maybe I would prefer to do this, but I would rather do what he likes this time. It is a give and take that I would venture to say 90% of population have never even got a part time clue to what a relationship like that feels like.
I would have never dreamed I could have it....but I lived it...so I know is possible. Demanding ones own way...is the easier way to destroy a relationship. Love, when both parties are committed and surrendered to the vows they made.........is a win win situation.
I am not so sure about what you were trying to convey about the differences in how a man and a woman interact.....or if you were trying to say that sex can be fullfilling without emotional attachment.??? I for one have never found that to be true. My husbands were not the only men I was ever with........ I however have never been with one...or for that matter ever even met one that can have a one night stand, a short relationship, fling....whatever without SOME emotion. I don't care what ANYONE says........I don't buy it.
Sex or mastubation still has to have some sort of attraction to the one that person is with, or an image in their mind of who they are imagining being with.
As far as the " get out " part and your assertion that intimacy is not only the sex act.....if you re-read my post you will find that my description of intimacy with my husband was not ONLY the sex act, but the love, the caring, the being half of a whole.
And as far as my B U L L S H I T.............I still say the same. It is my OPINION, and that is what we are on the forums for.....our views and opinions.....because everything else can not be considered " fact" when dealing with human emotions, consciences, moral standards, ...or lack of them...........
The other thing is the
integrity of one's word....when they took thoses VOWS.
I left my first husband because of physical and mental abuse ...and the danger to my children. Even then I sought out counseling from a licensed marriage counselor before I proceeded with the divorce.
We have a throw away, instant gratification society in which few can find lasting happiness because we are so used to looking for the next best thing..we fail to realize that what we have, with sometimes minimal work can be salvaged or renewed.
While , you also have your right to your opinions.....I stand by mine. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 1:06:21 PM | There is no justifying cheating. If you were married in a church and made vows to your partner - then you are lying to the person you are supposed to love.
This is different from an open marriage where people stay together for various reasons such as money, children or due to a business. If both people are open to that kind of an arrangement, and everything is in camera then I don't see a problem, as long as both people can live with it. I have friends who do this and it was kind of difficult for me at first, but over time I became ok with it.
I have a problem in so called "no intimacy" marriages where one person sneaks around behind the back of the other, and they hide what they are doing. To me this is cheating as one person is breaking their wedding vows.
For me, I have been in a "no intimacy" marriage, but chose to leave when the kids were grown, instead of cheating. For me, my word is everything and I meant the vows I took when I got married. I like who I see in the morning when I brush my teeth, so for me cheating was never an issue - not to say that the opportunity did not present itself, numerous times. I feel really good, knowing I left a bad marriage with my integrity and self-respect intact. It really makes dating now, much easier, as I can usually see the traits of cheaters easier than I did earlier.
Being cheated on is not pleasant, and in the first of my 2 marriages I was cheated on, so I know what that feels like, and would never do that to another person. The person being cheated on, goes through hell when they find out, as they begin to blame themself and its really a terrible blow to their self-esteem. I can't see how one person could say they love another person, and then hurt and betray them so, by cheating on them. If they are so unhappy, they should just leave the marriage. I would have been in a better financial position being married, but I believe my emotional health and having the opportunity to find that one special person, better than any bank balance or empty lifestyle, regardless of how good. However, this is only my opinion and opinions vary.
I also believe that I am worth more of a man's time than leftover scraps as a married man usuallys spends holidays, vacations and weekends with his family. I would not be happy being second on a man's list, while he expected to be number one on my list. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 1:07:48 PM | Im sitting reading this thread and it finally hit me that some people here try and justify cheating, or try to come up with reasons why people cheat? if the world renown psychiatrists and psychologists cant agree why people cheat whats makes you think it can be solved in this forum?
I don't think we can or should postulate what a relationship should be like. People are different and so are their needs and the type of relationships they choose to engage in, There are a million reasons why a partner would cheat some simple some not so simple but the bottom line is the cheater is selfish, I dont care if your background is judeo-christian to Islamic to atheist , a cheater is a cheater.
I admire people like Ichi-bon , she stood by her husband and didn't stray, Im sure many folks would of told her " go on girl dont deprive yourself you have needs, dont let life pass you by" but she CHOSE to stay faithful, and to that she can hold her head high and look into her next partner eyes knowing she stay true to her self and her beliefs.
It reminds me of a good buddy of mine who lost his wife to brain cancer in 1998, he could of easily went out and taken care of his physical needs but he did not..and that has nothing do with his judeo christian values, to him it was simple, cheating is a no no. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 1:35:54 PM | well,this is what you get if you'll waste all yoour money whhile being married and refuse to see what might happen if things are not going well.
I used to call this kind of situation"married yet single"-only the bills are the uniting factour-no more marriage for me!I have retired from that mess ! | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 2:37:57 PM | I used to think that the response to cheating vs. not cheating was black and white, but have come to realize over the years that even in this there may be shades of grey, depending on the circumstances of those involved. As my mother always said, "Nobody knows what truly goes on inside a marriage except the two people who are in it" - to which I might add, "and sometimes not even both of them."
I don't automatically and totally condemn all cheaters like I used to. It's still distasteful, but having had several close friends go through this from both sides - the cheater and the cheated-on - I've seen that in more cases than not, the partner being cheated on is no perfect saint either (male or female). OTOH, none of the cheaters whom I personally know are into simply bagging every warm body that happens to be available; each seemed to have found some kind of missing connection with someone other than their spouse.
I'm not condoning cheating but have come to realize that sometimes it's more complex than it seems. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - which, of course, is followed by "Go, and sin no more." | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 2:48:46 PM | Sorry Pittsburghvixen, you're talking double talk, you're sounding like a politician
that's the problem with cheaters ( not saying you are one) but it is simple , it is black and white the person who cheats knows its wrong PERIOD.
Doesn't matter why they cheat they CHEATED, or CHEATS, most folks dont take responsibility anymore, its easier to blame the partner for not giving them what they are missing, oooh booo hoooooo hoooooo, they were the ones who pick the partner in the first place? no.
Try sitting in my office listening the people who have been cheated on , caught STD's, or worse attempted suicide because they were distraught from finding out their partner cheated and blew their world apart.
When I hear these people come up with excuses why they cheated they should be taken out in the back yard and whacked. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 2:56:47 PM | | Ok Mahogany, but where does one draw the line? If you've been cheated by once, it's understandable you're most likely a victim...but what about the second and third time, are you still a victim of someone's wrong doing? | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 3:15:29 PM | Arabianangel, look at this scenario, 50% of marriages end in divorce, of the 50% that are still married how many of them are happy ? how many of them are just content, how many of them stick around because they dont want to alone?
That tells me most people pick the wrong partner, most folks want to get married, start a family and pick the one that they think is the best possible partner, and then the child comes , the hubby gets puts on the back burner and blah blah blah, you know the rest of the story.
Ok Mahogany, but where does one draw the line? If you've been cheated by once, it's understandable you're most likely a victim...but what about the second and third time, are you still a victim of someone's wrong doing? if the person meets people who keeps cheating on them, then the common denominator is that person, what is that person doing to attract cheaters?
Off topic, its like a few of my clients who comes to me and whine when they lose money in the stock market, and then they blame the stock market, the government, Wall street ( Bay street if you live in Canada) when I specifically tell them DO NOT INVEST IN THE STOCK MARKET until you take a basic accounting course and learn how to read a balance sheet and a proxy statement and before you invest your money in the market know the difference between a trader and a investor | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 3:41:35 PM | "what about the second and third time, are you still a victim of someone's wrong doing?"
Angel:
Replace cheating with rape or mugging. Perhaps you do something to attract, but do you want it to happen? No. Is it still wrongdoing? Yes. If you can tell me how to switch off that beacon that attracts cheaters, please do and I'll listen. I would call myself a victim if it happened ten times.
And like rape, there are repercussions for your life. You distrust honest people. Your sex life has a different priority. You hesitate to commit to a relationship. A cheater does more damage than just terminate a relationship, steal some money and leave a VD behind (or whatever happens around that time). There is a time-released damage that stays with the victim for the next relationship, possibly many more. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 3:50:13 PM | The *cough* man *cough* in that scenerio is a very, very weak person. In that scenerio he is staying in an unsatisfying marriage due to wanting to keep "all" of his material possesions. Pathetic, liar and a cheat.....but oh yeah, a hot rod in the sack.
Staying home, raising kids is hard work too. Maybe if he hired a housekeeper, she wouldn't be so tired. The raising kids years can be so difficult on any marriage. If two people who really love and respect each other can make it through this difficult time, I think that both will be satisfied once the kids are grown.
If I was a SAHM and had not acquired the education and/or skills to have my own career while I spent many, many years raising his kids, I'd expect alimony too.
Thankfully, I don't have this problem. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 3:57:12 PM |
There is a time-released damage that stays with the victim for the next relationship, possibly many more.
And this is why they keep attracting the cheaters, they get stuck being a victim that they subconciously start attracting victimisers....believe it or not, some people are comfortable remaining 'victims'. I once knew a woman that was cheated on by her husband, it happened over 15 odd years ago, but still this woman would tell the same story over and over again about her pain, and how wrongly she was treated, in fact she would search for people that were willing to listen to her story, she wanted empathy so much that she litterally became addicted to it and constantly attracting men that would cheat on her......until she met me, yes I did show some compassion, but I also shocked her out of her senses when I said , you like being the victim don't you?, she was shocked by what I said and thought I was ruthless...but when I asked her why she keeps dating the same type of guys, her pattern became obvious to her...
Not too sure what ever happened to her, we no longer had anything in common because the truth is I can't relate to people that consistently play the victim card... | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 4:25:21 PM | quote] Sorry Pittsburghvixen, you're talking double talk, you're sounding like a politician that's the problem with cheaters ( not saying you are one) but it is simple , it is black and white the person who cheats knows its wrong PERIOD.
Of course they know. That is why they lie and sneak around, and secretly divert resources away from the family and towards their cheat-partner.
Doesn't matter why they cheat they CHEATED, or CHEATS, most folks dont take responsibility anymore, its easier to blame the partner for not giving them what they are missing, oooh booo hoooooo hoooooo, they were the ones who pick the partner in the first place? no.
So true. When I found myself in a bad marriage, I left. I admit, it took me while, but ultimately I did what I had to do. I take full responsibility for my life, and my choices. So, if things are tough in some ways now, I suck it up. It is much better than sacrificing my self esteem in an empty marriage.
Replace cheating with rape or mugging. Perhaps you do something to attract, but do you want it to happen? No. Is it still wrongdoing? Yes. If you can tell me how to switch off that beacon that attracts cheaters, please do and I'll listen. I would call myself a victim if it happened ten times.
You would? If you picked ten partners who cheated on you, you would see yourself as the victim? Wow.The common denominator would by you, no?
And like rape, there are repercussions for your life. You distrust honest people. Your sex life has a different priority. You hesitate to commit to a relationship. A cheater does more damage than just terminate a relationship, steal some money and leave a VD behind (or whatever happens around that time). There is a time-released damage that stays with the victim for the next relationship, possibly many more.
You know that beacon you claimed not to recognize in yourself? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
See above.
It sucks that the only one who can fix you is you, but that is the way it is. If you feel this way, you need to fix it and fix it now. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 5:52:41 PM |
I used to think that the response to cheating vs. not cheating was black and white, but have come to realize over the years that even in this there may be shades of grey, depending on the circumstances of those involved.
Exactly right. My last ex and I had an open relationship; in the end, I felt much more betrayed and cheated on by him than I did by the man I was married to, and with whom I had a monogamous relationship - except when he was boffing other women. Deceit is what hurts, not a physical action. My ex-husband may have cheated on me, but at the time he was married to an immature and selfish woman - his emotional needs were most certainly not being met, even if his physical ones were. My last ex, however, was deliberately deceitful and manipulative - his hurting of me wasn't because I neglected him or his needs, but because he wanted something other than me. Hurt me a lot more than the more 'traditional' cheating my ex-husband did. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 6:09:22 PM | Exactly right. My last ex and I had an open relationship; in the end, I felt much more betrayed and cheated on by him than I did by the man I was married to, and with whom I had a monogamous relationship - except when he was boffing other women. Deceit is what hurts, not a physical action. My ex-husband may have cheated on me, but at the time he was married to an immature and selfish woman - his emotional needs were most certainly not being met, even if his physical ones were. My last ex, however, was deliberately deceitful and manipulative - his hurting of me wasn't because I neglected him or his needs, but because he wanted something other than me. Hurt me a lot more than the more 'traditional' cheating my ex-husband did.
Ok , call me super naive here, but you were cheated on by your husband.and then you engage in an open relationship which if I understand it right...gives both of you the freedom to have sexual affairs with whomever you please..and you stay together as a couple????????
And you are surprised and hurt that he found someone else. Did you think he wasn't " fishing".
I hear all about the " open" relationships and if someone really feels it works for them.more power to them>
But I can't imagine EVER thinking it would be OK for the man I love to be holding, kissing, caressing someone else, making love to them, etc.
If there are those that can honestly F*ck someone else just for the sake of doing it......I am soooooooooo still in the dark ages. ( I am gonna get blasted for that ONE)
When I got to bed at night with the man i love..........been three years since he died, but I had the complete assurance in me and he had in him......that we were with exactly who we wanted to be with,thankful for our love and still cuddling after all those years... the overwhelming feeling of that kind of love and intimacy is undescribable.
Why do people continually do the same thing looking for a different result. I am so sorry you are hurt, no one wants to see anyone hurt......but ME thinks you are worth much more than what you project your self as. Remember, YOU are the prize......not the garbage can for men that use and abuse you.
And as far as the first marriage....seems you blame yourself.........still. If his emotional needs weren't met, then why not come to you with that and try to work it out. Don't take the blame for his cheating!! JMO........we all have one. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 6:50:44 PM | | Mahogany - perhaps we can agree to disagree on this. I wasn't trying to be political on this subject; I just said that while in the past I may have seen it just as black-and-white as you do, I no longer feel that way in every case. I also don't think that every cheater deserves a pass. Sometimes the reality is a dark grey or an off-white, and the people involved are not automatically 100% evil losers because of their struggles (and yes, believe it or not, some of the cheaters do struggle with their choices). They are as human as you and I. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 7:00:10 PM |
But I can't imagine EVER thinking it would be OK for the man I love to be holding, kissing, caressing someone else, making love to them, etc
I found this erotic actually, in some circumstances. May do so again, some day, who knows?
And you are surprised and hurt that he found someone else. Did you think he wasn't " fishing".
For the first 5 of the 7 years we were together, no I didn't. After that, I wasn't certain, but believed in his assurances. In hindsight, I'd say he was "fishing" for the last year or so we were together. Deliberately monogamous relationships fall apart, too - sometimes without any sexual fidelity on anyone's part.
If his emotional needs weren't met, then why not come to you with that and try to work it out
What makes you think he didn't? Or, if he didn't, that he even could? He wasn't any older than I was so his ability to deal with relationships wasn't any better. And, if he did express to me his needs, what makes you think I even would have heard him? Looking back now, my guess would be that I was so focused on ME that I wouldn't have given him the time of day. He was supposed to be the MAN, the STRONG one and solve our problems, even the ones created by me.
Seriously, I was NO fun to be married to at that time.
Don't take the blame for his cheating!!
I'm not; I'm taking the blame for being an immature and selfish 19 year old and recognizing (too late) how that affected the other person in the marriage. It's usually a lot more instructive to look at oneself than the other person, when relationships aren't going well and that's something I learned well after I was married.
The point is that everyone is different; in MY life and my philosphy, sexual infidelity is not the worse or the only kind of infidelity. Sexual infidelity is, for me, usually a symptom of problems, not the cause.
YOU are the prize......not the garbage can for men that use and abuse you
Seems to me that you are making assumptions here based entirely on how you feel about sexual fidelity. While I appreciate that you believe you are thinking about my best interests, your mores do not apply to me, so please don't judge either myself nor my situation by them. Our different feelings about the importance of sexual fidelity vs. emotional fidelity and relationship agreements doesn't automatically make one of us lacking in self-esteem. Some might feel that my self-esteem is better than average - and yours - given that I think about the relationship itself, relative to my needs/desires/beliefs, rather than following the rest of the sheeple who have one set of rules for everyone and are unable to consider any other experience as being valid. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 7:05:52 PM | "If you picked ten partners who cheated on you, you would see yourself as the victim?"
Exactly, because they did not come with a tag that said 'cheater' and I picked them for it. If I knew how to pick em I would rather avoid them. Somehow (why?) being an easier target does not make you less of a victim.
Y'all can harp on the common denominator being me, but you have neither told me why I attract them (I don't have a 'cheat on me' tattoo on my forehead) nor how to spot them (like 'look for an orange dot on their earlobes'). And given the statistics on cheating, odds are pretty good that out of 40 women 10 are cheaters. Heck, according to ArabianAngel people change and it is somehow OK to cheat, if they feel too guilty to leave (I probably got that wrong, but I cannot understand justifications for cheating anyway). So I'd have to pick a person who is not just decent now but who I trust won't switch to the dark side later. I am not a psychic so I fail to see how female mood and behavior changes can be pinned on me. Methinks it is just another twisted logic to rationalize why cheating is not the cheater's fault. Remember, the door is always open. You can leave, don't have to deceive and cheat...
I'll say something very provocative now that I'm sure will be used against me:
According to your logic the Jews in Nazi Germany were no victims. The common denominator was them.
(I just hope you have enough common sense to deny that.)
My point is that repetition of injustice does not make the victims less so. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 7:23:43 PM | I read all of your replys to my post.............however long...and I stand BEHIND all of what I wrote before.
Yes, having faith in one's own opinion is important and at the same time, ignoring facts that contradict that same faith in one's opinion leads to an unsubstantiated and unsustainable opinion.
but NOTHING, NOTHING justifies cheating, going outside of the relationship for one's own gratification.
I agree. As long as the mutually agreed upon relationship contract is mutually maintained, there is no justification for cheating ( breaking any vow) contained within. At the same time, once the mutual agreement has been violated in any form, there is no longer a valid agreement and as a consequence, any actions taken can no longer be defined as "cheating" or "infidelity". One cannot violate a contract that is no longer in force.
I'm really not sure about the comments regarding your "get out" statement and my response beyond clarifying that depth of intimacy is not related solely to sexual interaction, therefore your reference to sexual activity as being "that intimate" is an invalid measure since equal and more depth of intimacy can and is achieved outside of sexual interaction.
I am not so sure about what you were trying to convey about the differences in how a man and a woman interact.....or if you were trying to say that sex can be fullfilling without emotional attachment.??? I for one have never found that to be true. My husbands were not the only men I was ever with........ I however have never been with one...or for that matter ever even met one that can have a one night stand, a short relationship, fling....whatever without SOME emotion. I don't care what ANYONE says........I don't buy it.
Let's not confuse emotions and emotional attachment. They are different things. Humans are emotional beings and while humans emote, it is not mutually exclusive to attachment. Your experience is limited to your reality and while your experience suggests that emotion at some level is required for sex to be fulfilling for you. Your individual experience is not generalizable to all human beings. It is only valid for you and a percentage of the human population that experience emotions and sex similarly. Yet, you again have confused "emotions" and "emotional attachment" and sexual interaction. If humans did not emote, sexual interaction would be quite boring and more of a chore than a pleasure. Experiencing emotion is significantly different from experiencing emotional attachment.
You are quite free to not "buy it" the world refused to buy that the earth was round for centuries despite the empirical evidence that proved otherwise. Some people don't want to be confused by the facts others find no confusion in facts. People generally align with the views that help them feel safe within their personal worldview.
The other thing is the
integrity of one's word....when they took thoses VOWS.
You seem to be confused. I am not advocating that any one should violate their contractual agreement or "vows" as you write. At the same time, the "vows" are only valid as long as they mutually maintained. When one partner violates one, they have violated all at which point, there is nothing left to break and there is no violation of one's integrity. So if your verbal agreement (vows) contain the commitment to never withhold sex from your partner and you violate that vow, the entire verbal agreement is void--Game over as they say.
Let's not forget that not every relationship includes "vows".
There are a multitude of ways for "cheating" to occur. It is not limited to sex.
One should stand by their opinion and should only alter it when they are convinced by the evidence that change is warranted.
Best,
ACP | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 8/30/2009 7:51:24 PM | "At the same time, once the mutual agreement has been violated in any form, there is no longer a valid agreement and as a consequence, any actions taken can no longer be defined as "cheating" or "infidelity"."
I can follow your logic, but I am missing the part about the communication. When she spreads her legs for another against our agreement, she knows right away that the mutual agreement has been broken and is void. However, most cheaters don't tell right away. In fact, some are so sneaky as to lie about it, leaving me under the impression that the agreement is still in effect. Therefore I would still call it cheating until she tells me or I find out. After that it doesn't matter what you call the agreement, because the word I have for the relationship is 'over'.
Do you agree that both the communication of terms as well as of violations of terms plays a role? If she called me right before the penetration and said "I am about to fornicate and you are not here." I would not call it cheating, because I can react accordingly. | |
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