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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 12:42:59 AM | pro-filer
As we're on the topic of divine right, stop expressing my own views more eloquently than I can manage myself. Forcing that on me isn't your job. Stop it, or else it's Jethro & Jed for you. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 12:49:19 AM |
I NEVER EVER stated cheating was justifiable.
Understanding something does NOT mean I believe it to be moral, acceptable or justifiable. It simple means I can 'relate' to the rational behind the behaviour. I used a hypothetical man as am speaking as a woman. The gender can go either way.
God, the one thing I despise about forums, people labelling and misreading the original post.
I'm still unclear on why you condone infidelity. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 12:55:22 AM | tokolosh1
^^^^^ there is a difference with relating ,understanding, seeing the point, etc than CONDONING.
Just like:
Killing is bad.
Killing in self defense inside yr home property.
killing is bad, but the circumstance makes is understandable....even necessary and even legally acceptable.
^^^ this example is extreme...maybe doesnt even apply.... | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 2:17:23 AM |
This is the part everyone seems to miss. How many guys do we men know...all with the same story..."we used to do it all the time....she was insatiable...we got married and two years later we have "married sex" maybe once a week....
And yet I haven't been able to find one woman to first of all acknowledge this phenomenom, or to be able to explain it from their point of view.
I don't really think this is very complicated. I'm a woman who loves sex, but who started withdrawing sexually from her husband after a few years because I couldn't stand having sex with him. And why? Because I came to see him as a condescending and abusive ***hole (and he was lazy and completely self-referencing in bed). Pretty simple really, and, I am told, a pretty common story--in other words, women don't like having sex with men they don't like having sex WITH. In my case, the sex was affected by the relationship--I didn't like having sex with a man I didn't like as a person. Was I fully AWARE of that at the time? No. It was hard to see what was happening from WITHIN the problem. When I was IN it, I agonized over why I didn't want him--but the one thing I knew was, I didn't want him. And yet, for quite a while, I believed it was a phase on my part and that we would get past that difficulty.
And yet, I can't complain of adultery. As far as I know, he didn't cheat. I, however, did--not "all the way," and only once (kissing but not actual sex). But that was MY moment of realizing that I needed to get out of that marriage....because I saw how close I came and that was NOT who I wanted to be.
This is a VERY difficult thing, because it's an inevitably emotional topic. BUT, one thing that I think is important is the DIFFICULTY, once you realize that there is a problem in marital intimacy, in REALLY sorting it out. And this difficulty, in my mind at least, lies partly (and very significantly) in the different ways men and women react to sex (not necessarily THINK about it, but react/respond). Or maybe I should say, this is how it played out in my marriage, and I think many people can probably relate.
For me, the lack of intimacy in my marriage in its last couple of years stemmed from a real problem in how we related to one another. I felt anger towards him and now I realize that I disliked him as a person and so I didn't WANT him. For me, THAT (our relationship OUTSIDE the bedroom) needed fixing and the healing of the intimacy thing would follow from that. For him, it was the other way around--spice up the sex, and that would help fix the relationship. It's as simple as that. Our marriage counselor told me that men tend to find validation in sex--which makes them feel loved--while women find validation in mutuality within the relationship--which makes them more sexual BECAUSE they feel loved. I know it's not a universal, but insofar as there is truth to that, it makes healing the kinds of problems that lead to a breakdown in intimacy more difficult for sure, because you are working from opposite directions.
And when the intimacy problem IS real and so very difficult to fix (even if you both really want to), I think that adultery, while not JUSTIFIABLE, is likely. Because ALL of us desire to be desired...but ALSO to actually desire others. When I had my kissing close call, what was so tempting was just the fact that I really felt a kind of desire for the man that I hadn't felt in a long time, and it was electrifying. And, looking back, I could understand if just BEING desired would have been intoxicating enough for my husband to stray, because I was not giving him that feeling--even though I understand now why I wasn't giving him that. In short, when two people are not giving each other that thing that is so validating, so stimulating, so WONDERFUL--well, it sucks. And I DO think that people can see their own relationships much better from a distance than they can when they are IN them.
So....it is so incredibly easy to fall into a rut in a marriage, and so very difficult to get out of it. And getting out of it requires a level of commitment that you just rarely have if you don't already feel passionate about your spouse. Why would a women be driven to spice up sex with a man she doesn't want to have sex with in the first place? Why would a man be driven to radically change his behavior for a woman he feels routinely rejected by? Why, when it is so much easier to charm someone new...feel exhilarated by someone new? Yes, there are all kinds of MORAL and ETHICAL imperatives that SHOULD make the difference...but then there is life. And all the pious moral outrage in the world can't change that.
We can all HATE it, and of course, nobody wants to JUSTIFY it, but UNDERSTANDING (at least rationally, if not emotionally) is something else. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 4:33:09 AM |
It's why I will never get married again
If you do it with a girlfriend who believes you are her partner, it is cheating.
In fact, on any girlfriend, it is cheating.
If you never get close to any woman, you are a player.
And for those who say marriage is just a piece of paper, you can not say this behavior on a girlfriend is not cheating. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 5:38:06 AM | ^^^A bit nomadic & Rosiag both of your posts support and reason on the importance of understanding, something I believe is mostly missing in threads like this. Nomadic, especially appreciated your perspective.
Couples feed into each other the basis for their relationship to sustain itself over the long haul. If someone unwittingly or deliberately doesn't continue to commit to the tacit understanding of what they've agreed to the other---what is sacred to them, it implodes.
Cheating is simply an outward sign of something broken in the agreement and understanding between the couple; this in my opinion is why there is such a slam against those who perpetrate this---because it's outward...it's humiliating. So does that justify? Perhaps not to most....but what is not commonly understood is this...the first underpinnings of the relationships...the attack on the unity and integrity of the couple usually comes not at the hands of the cheater...it comes at the hands of the other.
People who sit back with a holier-than-thou...'there was no reason for the other to do this to me', and rhyme off a whole slew of things that they do for the other...suggesting that they have held up their end of the bargain...simply fail to see what see the damage of changing some aspect of the agreement between them. It's hard to be understanding when there is humiliation involved, but it's even more important to take stock of the role in the breach if you are the one cheated on. The easy thing to do is to go through the rest of your life giving voice to the fact that you were cheated on...and never giving voice even privately to what you did to contribute to it. jmo. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 5:51:37 AM | Sweetest,
I focus in one word that you mentioned: VALIDATION. If one of the spouses is kept sexless and not by choice, he/she start feeling worthless, undesirable, irritated, etc.
Lots of times a lover just gives them that VALIDATION, that they are still alive and wanted. In these cases affairs are conducted without intention to hurt anyone but more to heal the cheater's feeling of abandonment at home. If you read POF....most men seeking affairs prefer attached women in similar situation ( I read men's profile's, I'm sure women post that way too), they mention they want to stay married as well.
Again I'm not here to condone cheating...just to bring up some perspective as to why some cheat. In theory, a true lover is the most selfless relationship. You are together for the love of the other ( love , care,company, special friendship etc ...maybe not even in love) and a good lover's effect might even make it look greener at home. and patch up some of the cracks in the lover's marriage. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 7:08:29 AM | Nomadic,
You have hit the nail right on the head. You stated....
I felt anger towards him and now I realize that I disliked him as a person and so I didn't WANT him. For me, THAT (our relationship OUTSIDE the bedroom) needed fixing and the healing of the intimacy thing would follow from that. For him, it was the other way around--spice up the sex, and that would help fix the relationship.
Bang on.
Men don't get it, when we, as women aren't connected emotionally, we cannot connect sexually. Not sure about men connecting sexually leading to emotional connecting as I don't think that' the case.
I have never strayed, ever, and I recall my last 4 yr relationship where everything began breaking down, we dint talk, etc, I was sleepin on couch as I was mad, etc, he had asked me one night to come back to bed...I thought it was cuz he missed the closeness..No sooner am I in the bed and he's groping me. Blah, made me ill, I told him to get off me and went back to the couch.
Men and women are not compatible....for life anyway.... | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 9:39:10 AM | | Why do you think you should get a divorce just becaue the passion is gone. I am not taking my children away from there father, whom they love, just because I dont love him any more. That seems pretty selfish to me. My husband knows our marriage is over, and has done little to try and save it. I will seek fullfilment elsewhere, but will not destroy the family unit in the process, this what you (and many others ) seem to suggest. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 11:16:54 AM |
I'm a woman who loves sex, but who started withdrawing sexually from her husband after a few years because I couldn't stand having sex with him. And why? Because I came to see him as a condescending and abusive ***hole (and he was lazy and completely self-referencing in bed). Pretty simple really, and, I am told, a pretty common story--in other words, women don't like having sex with men they don't like having sex WITH. In my case, the sex was affected by the relationship--I didn't like having sex with a man I didn't like as a person.
Exactly. I did NOT withhold sex to punish my ex or to get my way....I was just so angry and disappointed in him, I simply could not turn off the negative feelings just because he was horny.
I felt anger towards him and now I realize that I disliked him as a person and so I didn't WANT him. For me, THAT (our relationship OUTSIDE the bedroom) needed fixing and the healing of the intimacy thing would follow from that. For him, it was the other way around--spice up the sex, and that would help fix the relationship. It's as simple as that. Our marriage counselor told me that men tend to find validation in sex--which makes them feel loved--while women find validation in mutuality within the relationship--which makes them more sexual BECAUSE they feel loved. I know it's not a universal, but insofar as there is truth to that, it makes healing the kinds of problems that lead to a breakdown in intimacy more difficult for sure, because you are working from opposite directions.
Yes. It's funny, because I do not need to be in love to have sex. I have had fantastic sex with men without being in a relationship. Those guys couldn't do anything to hurt or upset me because they were not important to me on a personal level...but once feelings are involved, there is the potential for negativity. Once those negative vibes enter the dynamic, all thoughts of sex are off, for me.
I wonder if I (or nomadic, who posted this) HAD gone the route of just giving my ex exactly what he wanted, when he wanted, how he wanted....would it have made a difference to him? If he was "high" on the great sex, would he have treated me differently out of the bedroom? Would he have respected me more, been more loving, helped out with the kids instead of flaking out in front of the TV? Hmmmm...I guess I will never know.
Good post, nomadic. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 12:01:22 PM | [uote]1. You give the impression it is unfair for a man to have to share half of everything upon divorce. If a marriage isn't a partnership from the very beginning, what is it?
2. Out of fear of losing half, the man is willing to risk losing everything. Adultery is a one way ticket to divorce court and I doubt the judge would look very kindly on the one who committed it. In what way does this make sense?
3. Lack of intimacy at home. Whose fault is that? He blames the wife, but who has asked the wife to confirm? The fact he is willing to lie to her, deceive her, and break her trust in him ought to be a clue ...
exactly
If a guy has no intimacy at home then neither does she! A healthy, happy woman does not deny intimacy... she looks forward to it. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 12:39:04 PM | While I believe the ladies who are posting that the sex drive with the husband was lost due to neglect or abuse on his part, I really have trouble believing that the millions of marriages in which wives hold out on sex with their husbands are all due to that.
And that is very subjective. Anybody can find stuff to justify that.....not taking out the garbage, watching too much TV, not going out enough, heck Lucy cut have cut Desi off for life because he would not let her be in the show!
It still seems to come down to a control issue, ladies, and if you don't get everything you want, you cut off sex, and that just is not love.
of course, major exceptions for being called stupid, total disregard of your needs, never being around, etc. That I understand. That is major stuff. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 1:12:18 PM | | I wonder why these women who lost interest in sex with their husbands stayed in the relationship? Do these women also expect him not to cheat in that case? He shouldn't of course - he should leave or they should, but certainly they are contributing to the problem by staying. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 1:50:01 PM |
It still seems to come down to a control issue, ladies, and if you don't get everything you want, you cut off sex, and that just is not love.
Maybe men should cut off sex until they get everything they want, just to even things up?
I still say a happy, healthy person looks forward to sex, why deprive yourself ? How can something mutually enjoyable be used as currency?
... unless it was never mutually enjoyable? In which case, you've got bigger problems than an overflowing garbage can. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 2:11:04 PM |
While I believe the ladies who are posting that the sex drive with the husband was lost due to neglect or abuse on his part, I really have trouble believing that the millions of marriages in which wives hold out on sex with their husbands are all due to that.
I'm sure there can be any number of reasons why a woman might stop feeling desire for her husband. I have a friend who, after years of her husband behaving like a child (tantrums when he doesn't get his way, irresponsible behavior, etc.), essentially thinks of him as one. He is infantilized in her mind, and she isn't turned on by children--so, she isn't turned on by him (this actually happens a LOT, guys). It's also perfectly possible that irritating or nasty habits, things that get on your nerves, just build up so much that it's hard to get past them: if you seriously get on my nerves, I'm not likely to want to have sex with you. I'm not saying it's "right"--but it is real.
And that is very subjective. Anybody can find stuff to justify that.....not taking out the garbage, watching too much TV, not going out enough.... It still seems to come down to a control issue, ladies, and if you don't get everything you want, you cut off sex, and that just is not love.
And this is what I see as the myth--that a woman who wants to have sex with her husband would deprive herself of that pleasure just to punish or control him. I realize that BELIEVING this might be comforting to many men--ANYTHING but the hard truth that she just doesn't like having sex with him--but, honestly, NONE of the women I know see it in these terms (he doesn't do this so.....no nookie for HIM!). Now, it MIGHT be that a man who won't take out the garbage or who watches too much TV is exactly the kind of slug for whom a woman might lose desire .... but that isn't because he watches too much TV or doesn't take out the garbage--it's because he's THAT GUY (the slug).
I still say a happy, healthy person looks forward to sex, why deprive yourself ?
Whereas I believe that a happy, healthy person would necessarily be repulsed by the idea of being penetrated by a person she doesn't like or respect. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 2:26:54 PM | RosiaG, my last comment was made tongue-in-cheek, which probably didn't come across in my post. 
And I get condoning vs understanding.  | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 2:27:25 PM | | To me Cheating is. A Man or a Women Who Seeks out and Trys to Make another Women/Man think you are interested such as Flirting/Touching/Overly Doing Compliments/Giving More attention to another person. When you do this you will give the wrong impression and the person will think Hmm he/she is interested and anything could happen. They could flirt back or seduce you lol or maybe do nothing at all (Depending on who is being flirted upon)..Ive seen this happen A LOT! SO Yea To break it down anything You do to make the other person think you are Interested then being more then just friends..Is Pre-Cheating. Cause only person your suppose to be Flirting/Touching/Complimenting (More times then usual) and Giving your attention to is your BF/GF/Husband/Wife JMO | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 2:28:28 PM | I have met people where it wasnt "cheating" . They wanted it that way and both knew about it. Not sure I could ever understand or relate to that.
Not many people can. Most people are incapable of a form of honesty and trust which would allow it. Be honest. Are you religiously committed to monogamy? Is there actually a physical or emotional damage caused by intimacy with more than one partner, or is it a "moral relativity" issue to you and the upbringing, society and religion you are accustomed to? How can "serial monogamy" be so much more graceful when it often requires cheating the first to be with the second? If you honestly and faithfully move from one to the next, good on you, but why hurt one to be with another unless it is required by the blinders of the first whom will end up with another (or nobody) unless they see the other side. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 6:20:27 PM | I have never purposely withheld sex from a partner to control them. I became turned off by the rest of the relationship, and as a result, had zero desire to be intimate. Suggested counselling, tried to communicate, bla bla, and was taken as nagging/****ing/
Never did I stray. I left, after trying so hard to make it work. Sex became a chore, a duty and I hated feeling that way.
Some people are just addicted to the 'butterflies' and the high of a new romance so when it dies down, the need to find another to start the cycle all over again. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 6:29:18 PM | | If he doesn't want to lose everything he's worked so hard for he needs to sit down and have an actual conversation with her about where the intimacy has gone and why. Together, they need to figure out how to get it back!!!! It's not impossible. Wonder if he's even talked to her or tried to restore the intimacy? | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 6:29:20 PM |
Whereas I believe that a happy, healthy person would necessarily be repulsed by the idea of being penetrated by a person she doesn't like or respect
agreed, but the happy part might dwindle when said slug makes his move - it's hard to even look happy when your lip is curled up like that and your eyes are rolled back and you're muttering nogoodrottenlazysonofa whyisitalwaysmethathastocleaneverything justoncewoulditkillyatopickupyourdamnsocks | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 6:39:37 PM |
injustice to those of us who've been through hell with someone who blackmailed us with sex...or the lack thereof. My belief is that the sacred circle of trust is often broken by the other person before someone decides to go cheat to deal with it.
tip: it is not necessary to deal with 'broken trust' by committing adultery
If a guy bumps into you in a crowded bar, are you entitled to beat the shit out of him? Or, if I carelessly dent your car, are you entitled to purposely smash mine to bits and push it over a cliff to deal with the first dent?
another tip ( cause I'm feeling generous ): if someone's blackmailing you for sex, just say no thanks and move on to a more willing partner. Why on earth would you want to have sex with someone so reluctant? | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 9:03:59 PM |
I wonder why these women who lost interest in sex with their husbands stayed in the relationship? Do these women also expect him not to cheat in that case? He shouldn't of course - he should leave or they should, but certainly they are contributing to the problem by staying.
It is possible because it was in my case, that they stay because they honestly want to work through problems and have a healthy relationship, i.e. to live up to their marriage vows. Problem with that is that both parties need to recognize that there is a problem and do something about it. Some partners don't allow you to do that, any type of discussion devolves into a diatribe of all of the wrongs of the relationship rather than working through whatever problem is on the menu.
It is also not that easy to walk away and declare something beyond fixing when there are children involved. It is also difficult to determine how much worse one must live with before throwing in the towel. I think when either party gets to the point that they see no hope they do leave. | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 9:15:52 PM | | It's a difficult position to be in. Morally you know it's wrong. The idea of marriage is that you have a best friend, soul mate, intimate lover, etc, etc to rely on in your life. What happens when one of them decides not to be intimate any more? This is my situation at the moment. I have tried many times and many different ideas. We've done counselling to no avail. I am here because we have 2 beautiful children together that I cannot fathom to be apart from as they are my life. Because I am in this less than ideal situation and I have a partner that refuses to be intimate with me does that mean I should live a life without any intimacy? For me it has nothing to do about the money. I would live in squaller to ensure my kids have everything but if I left they wouldn't have me (this was threatened to me in one of our fights!). Single or married try and imagine a life without any compassion, any intimacy, any love. Not a very appealing thought is it? So sometimes being married and searching something else out doesn't make that person a horrible person, maybe they are just trying to be happy and take control of what they are in control of! | |
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| Justifying Cheating?
Posted: 7/4/2009 9:16:17 PM | | My dog told me she was the anti Christ and that I should feck the hell out of her. | |
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