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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/1/2009 1:05:13 PM | Personally I am glad that he has been refused 'parole' again .. he should end his days in the nick. Well done Jack Straw. His son apparently thinks that our legal system is appaling - presumably he thinks that people like his dad should be allowed to rob a train, kill a guard and then live it up in Brazil for 30 years in a marriage of convenience, making a fool of our 'appalling ' legal system and Slipper of the Yard - that all sounds fair ... not ! Not to mention an awful Phil Collins film .....
If he had taken his medicine when he should have, he would have been out and free twenty years ago .
Let him rot . | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/1/2009 1:13:20 PM |
If he had taken his medicine when he should have, he would have been out and free twenty years ago
Seconded, with knobs on at least in the olden days crims were sentenced to their just deserts not just 2 weeks cleaning the graffiti off the bridges coming into Paddingtion | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/1/2009 1:34:26 PM |
Whilst agreeing that Biggs should be locked up it somehow grinds with me and doesn't sit right that his much needed cell space could be taken up with more serious offenders , I.e some of these MP's who have fleeced this country of much greater amounts of money and have been at large for 12 yrs now !!
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/1/2009 2:00:03 PM | I don't agree with Ronnie Biggs being held nowadays either.
Given his age and his physical state I'd say he would be no real threat as a free man, and as a free man he'd probably only be released and free for a few months anyway before he passes away. It's not as if he's going to get a new firm behind him and roam from town to town, knocking over banks, post offices and trains as he goes, now is it?
And a couple of points regarding the actual robbery itself, in the interests of accuracy:
1. Ronnie Biggs was NOT, repeat, NOT the mastermind who planned and led the Great Train Robbery. That spot belongs to a London villain named Bruce Reynolds, who came up with the original idea and put together the gang and the resources needed to do the job.
2. Ronnie Biggs was, in fact, a pretty small-time felon, not some violent strong-arm man like 'Mad' Frankie Fraser or Freddie Foreman (known in the criminal world as 'The Undertaker', I'll leave to your imaginations the reasons why). Biggs was brought into the robbery team late in the planning stages, and only because he knew a train driver who might be available for a share of the loot. If it hadn't been for his knowing that train driver, then Biggs would have been highly unlikely to have been brought into the gang at all. Biggs was, to all intents and purposes, out of his depth, really, small fry swimming among sharks.
3. It wasn't Ronnie Biggs who coshed the train driver. It was in fact Buster Edwards who did the beating, not Ronnie Biggs.
4. The beating itself, which was NOT committed by Ronnie Biggs, but by Buster Edwards, came as a result of Biggs having chosen a train driver who had been retired for some years. Thus, the train driver Biggs brought in was unable to actually drive the train, which was fae more modern and complex than he was used to. That doesn't justify the beating, but, in the minds of the gang, it made forcing Jack Mills to drive the train to the rendezvous point where the cash was removed necessary, as none of the gang could do that job themselves.
4. This comment is just my personal opinion, but I'd say that Ronnie Biggs is still in jail not so much because of what he did as because of who he is and what he represents. If there's one thing the Establishment can't abide, it's an unrepentant villain who not only commits a serious crime, but evades the consequences of that offence and then proceeds to stick two fingers up, again and again, at the Establishment as a whole. Like the Kray twins (and I'm no fan of theirs, either), I feel he's being held up as an example of 'crime doesn't pay' (which is a fallacy to begin with, in a lot of cases) rather than because of any criminal status he either holds or may once have held. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/1/2009 3:32:16 PM | above i agree..
however.. the guy is/was taking the piss.. Hes gettign the medical care he needs.
if he is released can we expect a round of shows about him - flaunting the law ?
Jack straw is a decent guy that knows the law...I think he probably made the right decision. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/1/2009 3:36:55 PM | I believe the sentences were as harsh as they were because of the amount and the loss of face the robbery caused. In those days, regular armed robbery received much shorter sentences than now.
However, he hasn't done much time, he revelled in his notoriety and if he had more money, he would never have come back. I say let him rot.
But, the country is broke. Worse crimes are punished less severely. That others who commit crimes should be executed and others receive long sentences does not matter. He should do a fair share of his porridge and if he dies, then so be it. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/1/2009 3:41:48 PM | I agree that he has flaunted himself in the press and made monkeys out of the police and judiciary, the evidence for that is there for all to see.
But, regarding his medical care, he is currently a prison inmate, a convict, and the Prison Service has a legally binding 'duty of care' to ALL inmates, irrespective of their crimes or personal circumstances. They may not like having to spend a small fortune on him, but they are legally obliged to.
I doubt very much, given his age and his desperately serious medical condition, that he'll ever be flaunting himself before the media again. He's simply too old and frail to cope with all the brouhaha that the current media market for true crime requires (and yes, as a true crime wirter myself I admit to being a part of that business) .
What's far more likely, even though the story of the Great Train Robbery has pretty much been milked dry by writers, broadcasters and film-makers by now, is that we might see those who knew him well (and knowing what I do about the true crime business, quite a few who barely knew him at all) eyeing up a few nice book deals, radio interviews, personal appearances, TV and film rights and so on, for when he finally does pass away. I really don't see Biggs himself as either a threat to society as an active criminal or as being able to spend his last days profiting from what remains of his reputation as a criminal. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 2:25:44 PM | So the message from some of our Forum Members is......
It's perfectly OK to be a memmber of a ruthless and violent gang
It's perfectly OK to rob the country of what is the equivalent of some £20 odd million
today
Its perfectly OK to escape from custody for 30 years and live a live of luxury and debauchery
Its perfectly OK to stick 2 fingers up to justice
Its perfectly OK to expect to be released after all of that
Hmm, if you are all correct I think I'll be looking very closely at my local Bank next week! | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 2:46:17 PM | You have to remember that some people veiw the great train train robbery with biggs in brazil sticking two fingers up at the authorities..along the same lines as the italian job, a movie with good old british mini's racing around sticking two fingers up at the italians.
The difference obviously, one is movie fantasy....the other is cold blooded thuggery
some people have difficulty knowing the difference, especially when they've never seen thuggery.
I dont feel sorry for Biggs.....i wont feel sorry if he rots in jail, | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 3:07:45 PM |
Hmm, if you are all correct I think I'll be looking very closely at my local Bank next week!
Let me know if you need a getaway driver .. I could do with a jaunt to Brazil  | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 3:16:53 PM | I don't think that anybody is saying that what Biggs did was 'perfectly OK', as you put it. I'd also say that it's a mite dishonest to suggest that they are and put words in their mouths.
It is, to me anyway, wrong that Biggs should be confined when there is no real need to do so. He's of an age and health status that both make it virtually impossible for him to commit or conspire to commit any further offences. His age and infirmity also make it incredibly unlikely, given the physical and mental demands of a publicity tour, that he's going to be doing the rounds and coining it in on the strength of what remains of his reputation, a reputation which, as I've already explained, is nowhere near that of some master criminal. Even if he were physically and mentally capable of returning to a life of crime and were ready to do so, the vast changes in the British underworld that have occurred since he was last active would render him obsolete and almost certainly unable to arrange or take part in any major (or, to be honest, minor) offences.
Rather than wanting vengeance on some frail old man, a man who was, comparatively speaking, a pretty minor criminal compared to the rest of the firm that robbed the train, I personally don't see any point at all in confining him and wasting a five figure sum of taxpayers money, per year, to keep him inside until he dies. And I'd go further than that. He has affronted the Establishment. The Establishment have long memories and a vindictive streak a mile wide towards anyone that makes them look inept and stupid, both of which Biggs did. His continued incarceration has little, if anything, to do with justice or the law. It's just the powers that be wanting their pound of flesh, that's all, and choosing to take it in the most inhumane of ways.
Biggs is no longer a threat to society, that should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about his situation. Therefore he should be allowed to live out his final weeks and months, and I doubt he has a great deal of time remaining to him in his condition, with some degree of dignity.
Oh, and by the way, have you ever heard the phrase 'Justice, Not Vengeance'? | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 3:21:36 PM |
It is, to me anyway, wrong that Biggs should be confined when there is no real need to do so.
I believe he was sentenced to more than 8 years?! Therefore, there is a need for him to be confined, until he finishes his minimum sentence and becomes eligible for parole or until he dies.
Isn't that how it works for everybody else? And let us not forget that this is a man who rubbed his "freedom" in the face of the British police for years while he was safely out of reach.
What exactly would he do if he was "released" anyway? He's in a hospital bed, in a normal hospital where his family can come and go as they please. His release would simply mean the guards leaving the room and him yet again succeeding in getting one over on the British justice system. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 3:32:00 PM | | i think that if ronnie biggs is ever released he should donate all the royalties from that record he made with the sex pistols to charity..it will help show he is now a reformed character and a constructive member of our great british society.. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 3:36:49 PM | I disagree, I'm afraid.
You used the words 'need for him to be confined' which suggests that it's actually necessary as though he were some sort of threat or potential threat to the general public. He isn't, his age and medical problems both make his being an active criminal impossible.
And it's not always how it works for everyone else, either. It's quite possible for inmates to be granted early release on compassionate grounds, provided they are deemed to no longer be a threat to the public, which Biggs certainly isn't now and, given his lowly status on the underworld totem pole at the time of the robbery, it's debatable whether he ever really was.
Regarding his flaunting of his freedom, that was a big mistake on his part. He should have been discreet and stayed well away from any kind of publicity, then maybe the powers that be wouldn't be being so spiteful and vindictive now. That's the real reason why they won't let him go. It's got nothing to do with public protection and everything to do with his having made those at the top look inept and incompetent. And if they couldn't manage to bring him back after all this time, and couldn't even hold him securely in the first place, then that is exactly what they were. It's hardly rocket science to work out that anyone facing a thirty year stretch might choose to go over the wall if they have or can make the opportunity, now is it?
If he was granted his freedom, I doubt very much that he'd be doing anything other than having the opportunity to die with a little dignity which, for me anyway, is something that I wouldn't deny to anyone. I really don't see how he'd be 'getting one over on the British justice system' by lying in a hospital bed for a few months and then being given a proper burial. Oh, and you'll find that, as a British citizen, he has the legal right to use the NHS if he so chooses and, as a British prison inmate, the authorities have a legally binding duty of care towards him and every prisoner, irrespective of their crime or sentence. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 3:36:56 PM | Oh, and by the way, have you ever heard the phrase 'Justice, Not Vengeance'?
Yep, its a good one that, but doesnt have quite the same ring as 'if you cant do the time, dont do the crime', or 'live by the laws of our society and preserve your liberty'.
Ronnie Biggs only returned to the country that he'sbeen taking the piss out of for years to recieve the best free treatment for his ailments, hoping that the soft arsed British public would see him as some sort of folk hero, as opposed to a low life theiving scumbag, and campaign for a lenient sentence or even a get out of jail free card, but it hasnt worked, things have changed since he escaped justice, this country has its fill of NHS tourists, why should he be treat any better? | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 3:43:34 PM | Because, and as I've said before, he's still a British citizen, which gives him the legal right to seek medical treatment in his home country if he wishes. He's also a British convict, meaning that the prison system has a legally binding duty of care towards him and every prison inmate without regard to their crime or sentence.
It's a very simple case, regarding his health problems and his treatment, of the law being on his side, simple as that. The authorities may not like it, they probably don't, but the law is the law and the law says he is entitled to the treatment he needs and is getting. The authorities can't refuse him the treatment he needs and is legally entitled to, simply because he made them look like idiots and is a criminal. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 3:48:04 PM |
It's a very simple case, regarding his health problems and his treatment, of the law being on his side, simple as that. The authorities may not like it, they probably don't, but the law is the law and the law says he is entitled to the treatment he needs and is getting. The authorities can't refuse him the treatment he needs and is legally entitled to, simply because he made them look like idiots and is a criminal
He is not being refused any medical treatment, only his freedom, and quite rightly so. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 3:52:33 PM | He robbed this country (with his pals) of a large sum of money and then disappeared to have fun with it
He hasn't paid any taxes in this country or contributed to society in any way, shape or form but this country is still giving him the best treatment possible ... obviously excellent treatment as his death was imminent in 2005 when his lawyers were trying to get him an early release, yet amazingly four years on he is still alive and kicking.
Now, as you point out, he is a British citizen and therefore he must abide by British Law, same as he is accepting British Medical treatment. He was given a 30 year sentence, he has served 8. I don't care that he's ill or dying or whatever, the point is his punishment is loss of freedom and he is damn lucky that his family have unlimited access to him in his hospital bed.
I don't know why you are being so defensive over this guy ... when you think about it what exactly has he contributed to society or this country?
Zilch
Nada
Sweet FA | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 3:53:35 PM |
the country that he'sbeen taking the piss out of for years
Exactly!
He's been thumbing his nose at Britain for 30-odd years. Making records with the Sex Pistols, and conducting interviews in which he stated that he was proud of what he did in 1963.
Well, this is Britain's chance to say "Well, you bas-tard, thumb your nose at us now".
I hope he lives long enough to serve his sentence in agony........fcuk him!! | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 3:56:04 PM | In your opinion, and you're enitiled to your opinion. I just happen to disagree with it for all manner of reasons.
Personally, I like to assess a case on its merits or lack thereof, and make as objective, calm and dispassionate a decision as possible. Biggs is no threat to the public, he is physically incapable of returning to a life of crime, he is physically incapable of profiting from his previous life of crime and is, to put it bluntly, not long for this world.
As I said before, the Home Secretary has the authority to grant an inmate early release on compassionate grounds, including grounds of failing health, if he so chooses and if the inmate is deemed to no longer be a threat to society. Biggs is no longer a threat to society, is in rapidly failing health and, as such, should be granted his release on those grounds as far as I'm concerned. Instead, we have a Home Secretary who seems determined to ignore the objective evidence and opt to settle score for the powers that be, and do a bit of political willy waving while he's at it. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 4:02:47 PM | I'm just being objective and stating that, as far as his health treatment goes, all he's doing is exercising the same legal rights as any other British citizen has.
And I don't recall having defended his actions, explicitly or otherwise, at any point, either. I'm not a defender of criminals at all. I happen to write on true crime as a part of my job and the Great Train Robbery is one of the cases that interests me.
I don't think that Biggs is an especially productive or useful citizen of this country, no, but if you look at the case objectively and dispassionately, Biggs is no longer any kind of threat to society. In which case there seems no actual need to lock him away for what remains of his life, just a few deflated egos in high places that want their pound of flesh out of him because he embarassed them and made them look bad. Hardly, to me anyway, reason to take a man who is on his last legs and make what little remains of his life as miserable as possible. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 4:02:56 PM |
Personally, I like to assess a case on its merits or lack thereof, and make as objective, calm and dispassionate a decision as possible. Biggs is no threat to the public, he is physically incapable of returning to a life of crime, he is physically incapable of profiting from his previous life of crime and is, to put it bluntly, not long for this world.
Just bad timing really, if he'd come back sooner....around 1970, he would have had his quality years after completing his third or half sentence, but he chose to leave it until his health was declining, for all the reasons that you are quoting, just as well not everyone is falling for it. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 4:07:30 PM | As I said before, the Home Secretary has the authority to grant an inmate early release on compassionate grounds, including grounds of failing health, if he so chooses and if the inmate is deemed to no longer be a threat to society. Biggs is no longer a threat to society, is in rapidly failing health and, as such, should be granted his release on those grounds as far as I'm concerned
using that theory every prisoner in the country would be released when they got old and frail
Sorry, he got 30 years, he hasnt done half that.
tough.
VVVVV the man is a violent thug, who has shown no remorse, but instead has shown publicly that he is proud of what he did.
why should any compassion be shown by the Home Sec, Biggs hasnt shown any, so therefore could be in no way said to be rehabilitated.
he isnt a threat... so what.
he needs to serve is time that he was rightly sentenced to. | |
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| Ronnie Biggs refused Parole again
Posted: 7/2/2009 4:13:03 PM | Of course they wouldn't, and nobody is suggesting that they would either. It's also ignorant and dishonest to suggest that that's the case when it so patently isn't. Early release on compassionate grounds is not an automatic right, nor is at able to be used as a 'get out of jail free' card either.
Compassionate release is very rarely granted in this country, and only then if an inmate can satisfy the relevent authorities that they are no longer a threat to society. The Home Secretary has it in his power to grant such a release, it's in his gift to do that. I merely pointed out that there is no objective reason for him not to, and no threat to the public if he chooses to do so. | |
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