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| | Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?Page 8 of 10 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) | Good Lord! How many of you are gonna drag out one or two examples of women in math and science and say that that means that women are as proficient at them as men are. THAT shows a lack of logic.
Overall numbers prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on you. I noticed someone posted my point about the forum imbalance in the science/math section but couldn't explain the imbalance. Or the overall imbalance in how many of each gender working in the hard sciences.
I say blah blah blah not to make my own argument, but to show how you sound with your non-arguments that are actually just opinions. The fact you couldn't understand that only proves my point. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 10:11:46 PM | @castraphe  I read that article but didn't want to post it because it was hinted at previously in this thread.
@thudda sors man. Such is such. In times like these I follow the advice of a friend and enjoy the sweet taste of a cold beer. Gosh...it solves all my problems  | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 10:17:24 PM | By the way read all the messages carefully and read here http://www.psychologymatters.org/thinkagain.html
Like I said already, the forum imbalance is probably due to environmental and cultural upbringing (due to stereotypes, beliefs systems and the the fact that women are subconsciously taught to not venture into scientific fields the same way men are taught to be "MANLY" and un-sissified). Also this "IS" a dating site. Maybe the women are just being prudent by spending their time in the dating section of the forums...just a thought.
I recommend you read the information in the link or my previous posts at the very least. If you can validate your claim by proving my posts irrelevant then you make a logical claim. So far you have yet to do so.
**Edit heh heh posted wrong link | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 10:36:47 PM |
I say blah blah blah not to make my own argument, but to show how you sound with your non-arguments that are actually just opinions.
Are you seriously trying to state that yours are more than that? | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 8/30/2009 11:03:04 PM |
How many of you are gonna drag out one or two examples of women in math and science and say that that means that women are as proficient at them as men are. THAT shows a lack of logic.
Are you incapable of reading? That article covers all the higher math programs in the entire USA. That is not one or two. Why do you keep harking back to logic when you clearly aren't even using it? You're being completely hypocritical.
I say blah blah blah not to make my own argument, but to show how you sound with your non-arguments that are actually just opinions. The fact you couldn't understand that only proves my point.
Hahahaa - are you serious? Can you read your post and show ANY facts except anecdotes, and that more men are on this forum that proves your point? The burden of proof is on YOU, and you have shown NONE. I just quoted an actual thorough study by mathematical institutions, and you completely ignored it. The fact that you're doing the same thing that you're criticizing and that you can't figure THAT out really does make it look like you were just making fun of yourself. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/1/2009 4:49:30 AM |
...probably due to environmental and cultural upbringing (due to stereotypes, beliefs systems and the the fact that women are subconsciously taught to not venture into scientific fields the same way men are taught to be "MANLY" and un-sissified).
Ok, let's assume for a sec that all that is true. Then the questions become why are females so susceptible to all these forces (i.e., why do they give up so easily?), and why do these forces exist and persist in the first place, and who's doing it, and why?
I'd say such hypothetical forces are invisible because at least for some 30 years or so pretty much all the "environmental and cultural" messages have been along the lines of "Girls can do ANYTHING!" (including math/science), there have been special scholarships and other official/institutional incentives specifically designed to get them into the field, etc., etc., and yet it's still a big public issue as to why they're freely choosing to do other things. Like, how can we coddle them even more?
If anything, the overt cultural message has been negative to boys -- that he'll be considered "weird", a dweeby nerd/geek that girls won't want to date cause they'll not find him "MANLY" and that the jocks will pick on and make fun of. Just think of how often trekkies, or those into gaming/anime, are stereotyped as socially inept losers who still live with their parents (invariably in the basement) and couldn't get a date to save their lives. It's fifteen or so years old now, but there used to be a joke told by women about how they wouldn't date Bill Gates even if he was a billionaire... I mean, how much more sissified can the portrayal be? Sheesh, there's even a whole major network primetime TV sit-com devoted to this very notion and the perpetuation of such stereotypes.
Yet the guys seem to persist with their interests in spite of all this constant social disapproval, yet the girls switch to being art history majors at the merest hint that maybe they're not "supposed" to do math or science?
It's a pretty lame explanation which doesn't bear much scrutiny IMO. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/1/2009 7:03:58 AM |
If anything, the overt cultural message has been negative to boys -- that he'll be considered "weird", a dweeby nerd/geek that girls won't want to date cause they'll not find him "MANLY" and that the jocks will pick on and make fun of. Just think of how often trekkies, or those into gaming/anime, are stereotyped as socially inept losers who still live with their parents (invariably in the basement) and couldn't get a date to save their lives. It's fifteen or so years old now, but there used to be a joke told by women about how they wouldn't date Bill Gates even if he was a billionaire... I mean, how much more sissified can the portrayal be? Sheesh, there's even a whole major network primetime TV sit-com devoted to this very notion and the perpetuation of such stereotypes.
I see...and to that I reply two wrongs don't make a right. Stereotyping the stereotype only perpetuates stereotype.
Lastly these type of stereotypes exist within culture mainly because of belief systems, ideologies, and propaganda. I mean, women had to have women suffrage just to get somewhere in society. Was there man suffrage? Stereotypes aren't going to change just like that. Especially the type that has lasted for eons. I wouldn't be surprised if females are still taught to not go in to the hard sciences by their family and social circumstances (such as marriage and kids). Men, for the most part, are left free to choose what ever profession they like and they are not bogged down by pregnancy and usually have a better network of support when it comes to "science". The only resistance for men is from media, stereotypes and propaganda and less likely family (I'm sure any family would be happy if their son had the archetype of a person that would likely make lots of money in life despite the social classification of "geek". I guess its the same somewhat for females but I would imagine there is more incentive for the male since the male is supposed to be the bread winner). Also remember that the "Geek" stereotype exists for females (albeit less than for males).
I don't understand why this has to be battle of the sexes. I will conclude with what Einstein said about Noether:
Within the past few days a distinguished mathematician, Professor Emmy Noether, formerly connected with the University of Göttingen and for the past two years at Bryn Mawr College, died in her fifty-third year. In the judgement of the most competent living mathematicians, Fräulein Noether was the most significant creative mathematical genius thus far produced since the higher education of women began. In the realm of algebra, in which the most gifted mathematicians have been busy for centuries, she discovered methods which have proved of importance in the development of the present-day younger generations of mathematicians. Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas...
It really makes no sense to perpetuate stereotypes regardless of "feelings" towards it. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/1/2009 10:43:55 AM |
...probably due to environmental and cultural upbringing (due to stereotypes, beliefs systems and the the fact that women are subconsciously taught to not venture into scientific fields the same way men are taught to be "MANLY" and un-sissified).
The thing is many fields get balanced out by women based on how close they are to previous stereotypes - when women start taking "traditional" male jobs it happens in the way you would expect, slowly according to what they're expected into areas they're less expected. Attitudes don't change all at once. Biology and medicine sees a greater percentage of women, but that's because it's less of a stretch from what previous generations of women were doing. The question has to do with abstract, mathematical sciences, and it is like the farthest reaches of a world that was previously denied women, so of course it would take longer to catch up. There are so many options when pursuing academics or higher education that those forces that might encourage women to get into a more practical, more social area of study siphons off more before they get lost in the abstraction of pure mathematics. The fear of isolation in a male-dominated world, and the isolation of maths from life, until more and more of them decide to go down that road. The fact that there are more and more means this is happening.
Since I was in the art world I DID find it interesting that fibre arts is still very female dominated - and the odd thing about this is that there is a great deal of math in fibre, specifically weaving. My weaving instructor had a very interesting story to tell about taking a computer programming course a couple decades ago, which was almost entirely male. She had a VERY difficult time in this class, and not because of the material, but because of the attitude towards a hippy lady taking this course. She was mocked and belittled - and went on to ace the class. She clearly had a very negative experience due to the social factor, and not her ability. The kinds of equations and patterns that can be done with weaving boggles my mind, and it is all math. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/1/2009 7:48:36 PM | To compact on my own arguments on this subject, I found out that several administrators in my company used to work in the lab. None of them got their master's degrees and moved into admin work specifically. When I asked why they stopped going to school and why they got out of the lab they informed me it's because they didn't want to waste the degree because they wanted to be full-time mothers. They say they will not go back into the lab because the desire to discover is too great, and it is more important to raise their children.
Good Lord! How many of you are gonna drag out one or two examples of women in math and science and say that that means that women are as proficient at them as men are. THAT shows a lack of logic.
Overall numbers prove otherwise. The burden of proof is on you. I noticed someone posted my point about the forum imbalance in the science/math section but couldn't explain the imbalance. Or the overall imbalance in how many of each gender working in the hard sciences.
I say blah blah blah not to make my own argument, but to show how you sound with your non-arguments that are actually just opinions. The fact you couldn't understand that only proves my point.
Your interpretation of the data is lacking logic, and the fact that you can't understand that only proves my point. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/4/2009 7:50:54 AM | there are more women entering the field because of higher pay and a strong interest in math/science. i have never been good at math but enjoyed science. i dropped out of a medical career because math (algebra/calculas) was too intimidating. but, i made good grades in my science classes.
my art teacher shared with us a quote from Einstein : imagination is more important than knowledge. boy , this was so powerful. i luv einstein. in one of his books i read years ago he is said that his first wife was smarter but didn't advance her career because of their kids (one was disabled). | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 4:24:22 AM | I worked as a school council volunteer primarily directing fundraising initiatives for several years at my son's school. When he was in Gr. 8, and in his final year there, I developed a lunch hour brown bag kind of program for girls in Gr. 7 & 8 girls to come in and have a rather informal 'chat' around science and math and options with women who had careers in science, math, medical or engineering fields. I wanted to do this because during the previous year some of the standardized tests were revealing some drops in achievement for girls in this area, and doing this seemed like something positive.
These lunches were never that well attended....and it was hard to get more of the girls interested...and to give up some of their 'outside the school'...lunch time. The girls that showed up however were always clearly keen, and the speakers were always so impressed with the level of interest from them. The program had a lot of support by parents...but it seemed hard for some of them to translate that to their girls.
I was told by some of the girls themselves...that some of their peers didn't see academic achievement as something as beneficial...especially when being popular seemed to matter more. Being popular for a girl didn't seem to exist along the same plane as being considered smart---and for many girls it's just much more important to be seen as popular...hands down. After hearing this I thought that this engagement with girls around math/science needed to start earlier...well before the thoughts of pandering for boys attention became a reality.
As for myself, I hated math but was always interested in science. My parents gave me the 'out' in Gr. 11---and this is something I still resent them for doing. When I asked them about it much later, they said they'd figure I'd get married and wouldn't need it....I still believe if it had been one of my brothers that had struggled, they would have found a way to get him through it...(tutors)
What's funny is that I've met versions of my story several times in my life in several women that I know--their parents like my own giving the girl in family a pass on the 'hard stuff'...My dad who is now retired worked in the medical field...I've always been a bit fascinated by his work but was limited by choices that were made in high school as to what direction and path I could follow. Still interested... | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 5:30:52 AM | A dear friend of mine was recently drummed out of the Anthropology department because she would not play by the rules of the good old boy network. It was not sufficient for them to merely ensure she was denied tenure, but they had to go on to manufacture all sorts of false charges to destroy her career. Her sin in there eyes, was that she would not submit to sexual harrassment and exposed it.
I don't buy the biological arguments being made here by the guys. It is a boys world in the math and sciences and there is a "no gurls allowed" attitude, or if allowed, only at a lower and subservient level.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/09/19/report_finds_bias_keeping_women_out_of_science_jobs/
"``Compared with men, women faculty members are generally paid less and promoted more slowly, receive fewer honors, and hold fewer leadership positions," the Academies said in a statement. ``These discrepancies do not appear to be based on productivity, the significance of their work, or any other performance measures."
Female minorities fare the worst, the study found.
``We found no significant biological differences between men and women in science, engineering, and mathematics that could account for the lower representation of women in academic faculty and scientific leadership positions," said Donna Shalala, president of the University of Miami and head of the committee that wrote the report.
The study was compiled by all the National Academies -- the National Academy of Sciences, National Academy of Engineering, and the Institute of Medicine -- The institutions advise the federal government.
``It is not a lack of talent but an unintended bias . . . that is locking women out," Shalala, a former secretary of the US Department of Health and Human Services, said at a briefing. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 6:02:32 AM | | So to sum up the situation as I see it, there are many reasons that only a few women are involved in math and science careers, ranging from incompatible priorities (i.e., family comes first), to a lack of interest in those subjects, to ongoing sexual barriers (either conscious or subconscious by male-dominated institutions), but there is certainly no evidence for a lack of capacity. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 7:35:20 AM | There have been advances in women entering fields that were previously closed to them, but if you think that prejudice and stereotypes still don't exist, you are wrong. And the advances are much more recent that you think.
When the fourth top job in the company I work for was vacant, a group of senior managers were out drinking after work talking about who would get the job. One of the applicants was a woman. One of the men said "She'll never get it, she's a chick".
He wasn't sympathizing. He was gloating.
Nobody said a word. The next day I was called to a meeting with her and she announced she would no longer be the sponsor for one of my projects as she had got the job.
I took great delight in telling him and the other guys about her appointment. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 7:35:42 AM |
As for myself, I hated math but was always interested in science.
This is another reason why people in general end up quitting school before ever becoming a scientist. Many people don't realize that science is mathematics. You cannot be a scientist without understanding and using most mathematical theories. I use algebra and differential calculus on a daily basis, and I'm fairly low on the scientific totem pole in biochemistry.
I was told by some of the girls themselves...that some of their peers didn't see academic achievement as something as beneficial...especially when being popular seemed to matter more. Being popular for a girl didn't seem to exist along the same plane as being considered smart---and for many girls it's just much more important to be seen as popular...hands down. After hearing this I thought that this engagement with girls around math/science needed to start earlier...well before the thoughts of pandering for boys attention became a reality.
This is true, to a point. I attended several different K-12 schools, and being popular depended upon a certain level of academics at several of them. I still was the only girl in my AP calculus class, and the only "non-social-outcast" in AP Chemistry. There were quite a few girls in my AP Biology class. When I got to college, women started out as plentiful in the lower-level science courses, and all the ones who couldn't get the math changed majors from biochemistry to a more general science degree or changed to med students. I don't know how much mathematics a doctor needs to use on a daily basis, but my assumption is that it's a lot less than I have to use. Then, many of the ones who did get it, dropped out because they got pregnant and wanted to put their kids first and be a mom. Many of the ones who finished their degrees don't work in the field because they are moms.
I really don't think it's so horrible. Children need their parents. If you plan on having children, it's really worth it to wait to get into your field until you are comfortable with your child's level of independence in school. If you stick to a plan, you can keep your mind honed in current science practice and your mathematical skills, so when you return to your field you aren't behind.
For a woman who wants kids, it really should be degree -> entry-level work -> kids -> return to work. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 8:31:57 AM | Around the time I was 18, I was trying to plan my future. My mother had died when I was a wee child and my father was not versed in how to communicate with his kids, so all my planning was made with other girls my age. I was a scientist and couldn't see myself switching to the arts like a lot of my friends (boys and girls). The conundrum was how to build a career and have a family and the timing around the two. At that point I thought that if I had kids any later than 26, then I'd risk not having any at all. In the end, I did as Heteroic mapped out: degree - entry to work - family - back to career, with some overlap in the family and career. And I had my kids a lot later than in my original plan.
Do boys have these crises of conscience when trying to decide what to do with their lives? I really don't know the answer to that one.
It is not impossible to have family and career, but the conditions must be right: a flexible career or a husband who wants to take on at least half of the nurturing.
I've heard the platitude that girls care more about their popularity than their grades, but it wasn't my experience in highschool. In my enriched science and math classes I was with the smart girls and their identity very much revolved around their scholastic abilities. So much so, that I was humbled by their intelligence...that's why I don't buy it that girls aren't as good as boys in math and science. My girlfriends were and are brilliant and there have been very few men that I've known that could have measured up to their intelligence. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 8:56:34 AM |
I don't buy the biological arguments being made here by the guys. Well, it depends what you are trying to say here. One, or perhaps 2 posters here have suggested that women have INFERIOR abilities in some areas. Others have suggested that men and women ARE different. Including their brains. The latter, I have no problem with. It seems ludicrous to think that all of the physical differences between males and females aren't accompanied by equally abundant cerebral differences. And science seems to be on the side of differences. Of the very few arguments for 'sameness' was Pink Brain, Blue Brain: How Small Differences Grow into Troublesome Gaps and What We Can Do About It By Lise Eliot.. (http://www.newsweek.com/id/214834). Eliot is a college professor with a list of 6 peer reviewed works which ended it 1995. Since then, she has chosen to write books, apealing directly to the public rather than subjecting her ideas to peer scrutiny. You gotta wonder.......
The real bottom line to me is not that males and females are different - it seem ludicrous not to think so, but that we should even be concerned about it. ABILITY is what counts and both men and women seem to posess that in abundance. To generically deny ANYONE the opportunity do something at which they excel is to deny us all of the contribution that person could make. Measure the ability, not the sex, race, or whatever other bias can be invented.
But that doesn't imply that men and women are equal in their performance. That doesn't make them generically smarter or less smart. It just makes them different. And smart people should recognize and take advantage of those differences - remembering that there are HUGE overlaps between the abilities of men and women. That means many momen will be better than many men in a particular area, even when both perform well. Again compare abilities, not sex (race, etc.).
Having said that, I would agree that an unwarranted sexual bias still exists in academic pursuits. Sweetest has an interesting viewpoint...
for many girls it's just much more important to be seen as popular...hands down
I think I'd agree with that - and have seen it both socially and academically. It may be one of the most relevant points to the OP. In fact, my personal survey would be that the successful women are those who have overcome their desire to be liked - at least by their peers. I also wonder if their response to not getting that peer approval is less conciliatory than men. I've seen situations like those described by Earthpuppy and they all seem to be much uglier when women are involved. Perhaps male aggression (I think well documented, not just my sexist bias) provides many more opportunities to practise conciliation and avoidance of conflict, particularly in no-win situations.
to ongoing sexual barriers
It is a boys world in the math and sciences and there is a "no gurls allowed" attitude, or if allowed, only at a lower and subservient level.
Both seem to be true, yet I don't meet many male who openly exhibit such gender bias, or reveal it in any private conversations that I have encountered. Is it just a small minority of males rather than a pervasive male mentality to keep women out of their world? As we see even in these forums, a few people will stick doggedly and passionately to the stranges of ideas. But it's a whole different issue than a generally accepted position held by a majority - and it needs a different approach to correct.
One somewhat hidden aspect of gender bias is the part played by females in all of this. I've witnessed a few cases similar to those described by Earthpuppy. Two, I would say were initiated by male faculty. One in Texas where tenure was denied to a woman who later became a facuty Dean at another University. One in California where the woman moved to another university and disappeared into oblivion. Neither were particularly conciliatory when it came to disagreements with other faculty. I'm seeing a similar behavior with a male colleague right now, where, despite advice to be more conciliatory, he just seems determined to fight the system and will probably lose his job. Maybe generically, women are more conciliatory, but that isn't necessarily a great positive. 'Conciliatory enough' is all you need to be.
Perhaps the most shocking example of gender bias I have ever witnessed was again in California where a talented female professor was denied tenure and moved on to become a company senior vice president in the aerospace industry. Her sole opposition was the female head of the department she was in. Through a prolonged campaign of sheer persistence and political manipulation, she managed to get a popular female faculty member thrown out. It was shocking, but I've heard of many similar examles since then. I half-dismissed such reports over the years - until this thread reminded me of them. A little Googling seems to confirm what I had been told. The book, Globalization and women in academia: North/West-South/East By Carmen Luke discusses this particular form of gender bias and suggests that perhaps the worst offenders may be other women (Chapter 8 is available online and dicusses this). I have no particular axe to grind on this topic, but it seems that the elimination of gender bias will be inevitable until ALL contributors to its continuing presence have been eliminated. Jealousy among women colleagues may be a nasty pill to swallow, but its damaging effects can't even be addressed until its extent and effects are recognized. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 11:27:08 AM |
A little Googling seems to confirm what I had been told. The book, Globalization and women in academia: North/West-South/East By Carmen Luke discusses this particular form of gender bias and suggests that perhaps the worst offenders may be other women (Chapter 8 is available online and dicusses this). I have no particular axe to grind on this topic, but it seems that the elimination of gender bias will be inevitable until ALL contributors to its continuing presence have been eliminated. Jealousy among women colleagues may be a nasty pill to swallow, but its damaging effects can't even be addressed until its extent and effects are recognized.
I'm sorry, but jealousy is not gender specific. If it were limited to women, then you wouldn't see so many cases of a boyfriend or husband killing his girlfriend or wife because she's left him for another man.
Jealously exists when 2 people are competing for the same goal. In the workplace, that would typically be recognition or promotions. If there is, in fact, a trend of women impeding other women from succeeding in academia, I would argue that the reason this is happening is that there exists an imbalance of genders in that discipline. For example, if you had a female-dominated office with 1 male worker, his recognition (however subconsciously) might come from the relationships he's established with his colleagues. You can imagine how that man would feel if another man was hired and that man drew some of the attention away from him.
I suspect that in any discipline where there is a gender imbalance, jealousy could exist. The damage, of course, would be if that jealous individual had the power to eliminate the new "threat". I would maintain, though, that it's the gender imbalance that creates that situation and not the gender of the jealous individual. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 1:00:14 PM |
I'm sorry, but jealousy is not gender specific. If it were limited to women, then you wouldn't see so many cases of a boyfriend or husband killing his girlfriend or wife because she's left him for another man.
It depends on the source of jealousy. Women tend to be jealous of each other for subconscious reasons, and can be very vicious and catty. Is this the case of men? | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 1:36:02 PM |
so many cases of a boyfriend or husband killing his girlfriend or wife Hopefully, the struggle for career positions won't come to this!
Is this the case of men? That's a good question, though one I don't really have an answer to. Nope - I don'tthink I'm even going to go there!! 
I would argue.... You have a very valid hypothesis, but the point is that we need to base actions on knowledge and understanding, not conjecture. It would be a good point to research. In the most eggregious case I described, the woman in question displayed a positive bias towards female employees within her own group - more than 80% of her subordinate employees, so it isn't just the desire to be the only female in an all-male environment. There were already several other females in relatively high positions on parallel tracks in addition to the one she chased out. The book I cited also described anti-female bias by a woman who was leaving and helping to choose her replacement. It certainly isn't the only problem, but it seems worth investigating how big a problem it is. - even at the level of 'nerdy'girls at school. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 3:03:57 PM | You're right. It was conjecture on my part and it might be accurate or perhaps not...One thing is for sure, though, before there were any women in the workplace, there were "old boys clubs", where a guy had to fit in or he didn't get promoted.
Now that women are taking on management positions, some of them are acting just like those men did back in the day. It's really not that surprising. I do take your point, though, that women shouldn't just automatically blame men for gender discrimination, when we ourselves don't always support each other, even when we should.
Heteroic: I do agree, too, that some women can be catty. Men tend to be straightforward and sometimes rude when they don't agree with each other. In some ways I'm jealous of that trait. | |
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| Why aren't there more women involved in math and science?
Posted: 9/5/2009 3:37:29 PM |
Heteroic: I do agree, too, that some women can be catty. Men tend to be straightforward and sometimes rude when they don't agree with each other. In some ways I'm jealous of that trait.
Now that I think about it, I don't know many men that are calculating and passive-aggressive either. lol | |
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