|
|
|
|
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/4/2009 11:41:08 AM |
...for me, a serious relationship could sustain a good long while, with weekends ( Fri night-Mon morning) together, and phone contact during the week.
i've tried it 3 times and it's failed 3 times.
and i'm also tired of it.
i'm also a non-driver and hate putting a travel burden on someone else. i don't want to do that again either. | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/4/2009 11:48:51 AM | To RenassanceMan1950, Msg 39
personal autonomy, by maintaining separate residences Autonomy:
1: the quality or state of being self-governing ; especially : the right of self-government
2: self-directing freedom and especially moral independence
3: a self-governing state
Maintaining separate residences appears to be the only way for a couple to preserve autonomy in the sense of the second definition. In Canada, the state, the law and its lawyers become the third partner on the moment of cohabitation.
The text below is from a Statistics Canada publication titled "Couples Living Apart".
Regardless of whether it is a temporary or permanent arrangement “living apart together” is a way for Canadians to balance their needs for independence with their needs for intimacy. The full article is available at the web site below.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/studies-etudes/11-008/feature-caracteristique/5022702-eng.pdf | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/4/2009 11:51:35 AM |
In Canada, the state, the law and its lawyers become the third partner on the moment of cohabitation.
uh, not quite.
it depends on:
a) the province; and
b) how long you've been cohabiting... | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/4/2009 12:12:50 PM | To Divine Bovine, Msg 53
b) Agreed. Yes, there is a time requirement. I should have said after a time period specified in the relevant law.
a) I am aware that distribution of property is governed by Provincial/Territorial Law, although it may not be general knowledge. | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/4/2009 12:22:26 PM | While there are some places and circumstances in the U.S. also where, if two people live together long enough, there is some exposure of assets to "palimony". There are other legal entanglements as well, such as real estate or rent, etc.. For some, those are considerations.
The OT has more to do with the commitment and monogamous nature of things, and the assumption by many, that "if it's a serious, committed relationship", you "have to" live together. It's the "relationship dynamic", and a realization that it's entirely possible for two people to have a very good romantic relationship, but who might not be compatible "roommates".
For me, I'm sure it's not wise to become 24/7 quickly, and for some couples, it may never be a good idea, although a close, long term, committed relationship is entirely possible, while living separately, IMO. | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/4/2009 12:31:21 PM |
I agree that living together is the fastest way to ruin (the wrong) relationships, but living together is also the best way to develop, nurture and grow (the right) relationships. Living together is the ultimate expression of sharing when the relationship and timing are right.
When the relationship and the timing are right, couples develop "our way" that works for the two of them. Examples: You need time alone; she gives it to you. You don’t want to pick up and she likes a clean house; she picks up. She doesn’t like to mow the lawn; you do it. And so on. Emotionally mature couples in the right time/right relationship find ways to turn "issues" into something that promotes the common good of a loving relationship. Each action to promote harmony is done with love, so it's not seen as a compromise or tit for tat. It's about loving the other person.
^^^Agree with Kay here. Living together is the ideal situation that I'm looking for. And while marriage may or may not be part of it, I simply can't envision less than that. I want to share my life fully. I've spent a good chunk of time on my own and don't need to investigate further what that's all about.
I don't agree that there is any aspersions cast by articulating 'need' so honestly as Renman has...I see it for myself exactly as he wrote it. I don't choose to deflect or posture in a way that makes this seem less than what it is...The right person will feel as I do.
There is a "need" in the heart of most of us, to have "someone special" in our lives, and to love and be loved in return is a very real need, not just a passing "want". | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/4/2009 12:59:21 PM |
Why can't two people be in a monogamous, committed relationship, yet maintain some personal autonomy?
Sounds good to me. I enjoy my "me" time but also enjoy spending it with my SO. I belief that is how we both stay healthy in the relationship. I can't stand "clingy" must see me all the time guys. | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/4/2009 7:08:06 PM | Lil – Msg 20
I'm with you on waiting a couple of years. However, after that, if you love eachother, most folks want to be together 24/7.
There are a lot of practical advantages:
HUGE financial savings in maintaining one home as opposed to two.
Another pair of hands on the end of the 2 by 4.
Sharing the sh*t work is so much easier a lifestyle. (Right now, I do all the handyman maintenance, repairs, gardening, housework, cooking and work at a job. It gets exhausting.)
And let's not forget the emotional advantages (if you love one another). Unscheduled petting, talking, laughing and making love.
I agree on both points – the practical advantages and the emotional ones, not to mention the time savings and reduced stress by not having to commute from one place to the other.
Having experienced both types of LTR, I don’t think, we can say one is better than the other. It really depends on the particular circumstances and personalities of both parties. One type can lead to another, but sometimes it’s just better to leave it at the first stage.
But what I will say is, that they are two entirely different things. Especially, in the emotional category - I couldn’t even count all the niceties that in a good 24/7 relationship far outweigh the few minor irritations from too frequent contact.
RenMan – Msg 24
Yet, my real life experience has been that to take a relationship of 6 months, that is really a strong, good relationship, but then thrust it into 24/7 can create stresses and discord about daily living issues, that have little to do with a romantic love connection.
True, but sometimes the living apart arrangement can create unnecessary stresses and complications which affect the romantic love connection.
| |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/4/2009 7:13:17 PM | | oh i sooo agree on this one. ive tried bending myself backward so many times for others that ive damaged myself and made myself boring. theres a great song by a singer/songwriter called K.T. Oslin. its called "live close by, visit often" my motto. indivuality makes us both interesting and strong. why, oh why do women want to change us men into something were not? ill stay lonely and sad rather than sell my soul, and im a very loving person and very accomadating. ill give 100% but im a man and i want to stay that way. | |
|
| |
dnto
|
Joined: 6/10/2007
Msg: 61 | |
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/4/2009 8:13:48 PM | I agree with you sweetest; kay9876 in post #10 nailed it for me too.
RenMan, if I use your example in post # 8 of dishes and clothes, I think that when you really care for someone you will want to do what they want done. That is not compromising. When you ask yourself why something bothers them and put yourself in their shoes it sometimes becomes clearer. So if it’s important for the woman you are with to have a tidy house then it just is. Find a win-win . Perhaps that pan that you know will be easier to clean after it has soaked, put some water in it and put it out of sight in the oven until you want to clean it. Those clothes, well You buy a nice clothes hamper with lid on it and put it somewhere that is close for you and put your clothes in it. If you trip over it in the dark on your way to the bathroom, that is Your problem. These things will show the woman that you are with that you “have taken the time” to really get to know her and care about making her happy. Just like dating. It takes time to show someone that you have observed and really listened and can show them that you are willing to do some of the things that make them happy… because you want to make them happy. You’ll want to ‘Make it hassle free’… for Them. You’ll soon find that many of those that initially wanted to ‘go slow’ are now rather more in a hurry to take things to the next level. They have seen that you aren’t just going to high-tail it home to avoid something but instead deal with it. Remember, Anyone can go ‘fast’ and anyone can also handle the helm when the seas are calm.
BTW, thanks 4 all seasons ca for the link in your message #52. Guess now we don’t have to worry about using FWB anymore in this situation when the ‘official’ term is LAT (Living Apart Together).
I will admit that I am probably looking at a LAT relationship in my future since I live in a small town and am going to retire in less than 3 years at the 'young' age of 54. Hopefully, it will be a short-term arrangement. | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/4/2009 8:32:48 PM | if I use your example in post # 8 of dishes and clothes, I think that when you really care for someone you will want to do what they want done. That is not compromising. When you ask yourself why something bothers them and put yourself in their shoes it sometimes becomes clearer. So if it’s important for the woman you are with to have a tidy house then it just is. Find a win-win . Perhaps that pan that you know will be easier to clean after it has soaked, put some water in it and put it out of sight in the oven until you want to clean it. Those clothes, well You buy a nice clothes hamper with lid on it and put it somewhere that is close for you and put your clothes in it. If you trip over it in the dark on your way to the bathroom, that is Your problem. These things will show the woman that you are with that you “have taken the time” to really get to know her and care about making her happy.
I absolutely agree with all of that, as I agree with Kay9876 concept that a couple living together will find an "our way", and the "our way" will inevitably be "her way", because, if I'm living with someone I care about, I will want to make her happy.
Therein lie the seeds of destruction, though. I am, by nature, accomodating, and in a relationship, want to make her happy. However, I also want to feel "at home", and not to always be living in "someone else's" home, even if we bought it together. Which is why, for me, I feel an increasingly desperate need for alone time, when I'm living with someone.
I don't want to have to always be focused on what she wants in "her" home, nor always focused on her wants and needs. Sometimes, I just want to be a guy, comfortable in my own space, and not having to be "attentive". If I have my own place, then I don't have to worry about hurting her feelings, if I don't pick up after myself all the time, or leave some clothes on the floor. When I'm spending time at my place, I don't have to remember at 3AM to put the toilet seat down. If I can't sleep, and want to watch TV at midnight, I don't have to worry that I'm hurting someone's feelings, by not coming to bed.
I was married for 20 years, so I do know how to live cooperatively, but that was when there were children we were raising as co-parents, and there was a higher purpose to making it work 24/7. Even then, I insisted on having 3 hours on Sunday during NFL season, and that was often "challenged". Once you're living with a woman, in my experience, it seems to be hurtful for most women, if a man tries to carve out a "my time" zone.
Now, though, without that "higher purpose" of raising children, the three times I've tried a "live with", I've found that having to live all day, every day, focused on what someone else wants in "her" home, leaves me yearning for my personal space, and ultimately, it's been the undoing of what had been a very nice relationship.
So, it comes down to looking at 24/7 as the assumed "goal", and I wonder "why?", unless you just naturally fit together in daily living, and if you don't, what does any of that have to do with a monagamous, serious, romantic connection? | |
|
| |
| |
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/4/2009 10:08:28 PM | I have friends that married and divorced each other twice! They finally concluded that they were madly in love with each other, they simply could not stand to live in the same house!
Their solution? They both sold their individual homes, bought two empty lots - side by side - and each had a home built on the new lot. They have been happily married, while each maintains their separate residence, for more than 2o years!
Now that's what I call committed - or perhaps should be?? | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/5/2009 7:18:49 AM | 4 all seasons said: Maintaining separate residences appears to be the only way for a couple to preserve autonomy in the sense of the second definition. In Canada, the state, the law and its lawyers become the third partner on the moment of cohabitation.
I was just recently reading about a case here in Quebec about a woman who was living with a man for over 10 years.. Quebec does not recognize common law marriages and all she could get was child support for the children they had together.
thecatsmeoww | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/5/2009 7:31:50 AM |
Kay9876 post #10--By the way, sharing chores has a lot to do with a loving relationship. I truly miss the days when taking care of the yard and other "outside duties" were not on my list of weekly responsibilities. Mowing my lawn, weed eating, spraying for bugs and weeds, putting gas in my car, clearing the driveway of snow, and taking care of household repairs can be, in the right circumstances, viewed as loving acts by a man with a caring attitude.
And the part about putting gas in my car ... That's just romantic. Anything a man does beyond the usual "man stuff," can be considered to be at the level of romance. It demonstrates deeper consideration for the partner and a willingness to go the extra mile.
Many in this thread have referenced this post as their ideal of how it can be. It was a brilliant post, but I have a different perspective.
When I've been "involved" with a woman, but not living with her, it is a "romantic" show of affection, if I go over to her place and mow her lawn, fix something at her house, etc.. When we're living together, though, it's merely among my "responsibilities", and no longer is seen as a gesture of affection.
In reference to putting gas in her car, again, when I was married it was merely fulfilling an expectation. In fact, there was one time that I had neglected to check my ex wife's car, and she ran out of gas. You know who was "to blame" for that, of course?
couples develop "our way" that works for the two of them. Examples: You need time alone; she gives it to you. You don’t want to pick up and she likes a clean house; she picks up.
Sounds fine in theory, but it's not consistent with the reality of my experience. If she likes a clean house, and a man doesn't pick up, she takes it personally, and is hurt. If something needs to be fixed, and he doesn't do it right away, she interprets that as meaning that he doesn't think she's important. She wants to go shopping, and it's NFL Sunday, and I remind her again that "the holy day of football" is inviolate, she interprets it as meaning that her wants and needs are being "dismissed", and so on. | |
|
dnto
|
Joined: 6/10/2007
Msg: 68 | |
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/5/2009 8:30:53 AM | RenMan, obviously our life experiences have been different. For the most part, the women I have been involved with have that stereotypical, female ‘nurture’ manner that will not let me ‘outcare’ them no matter how hard I try. In the end though we do find the “our way” that Kay9876 described and not the ‘her’ way that you have experienced and take to be the norm. When the goal of reasonableness is kept in mind, I think that one can avoid the “insisted” and “challenged” dynamic that you described in your msg #62.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely agree with the requirement for some ‘my space,’(and time) I just don’t think it necessarily has to be at a separate ‘my place’ in the end. And the time that you don’t spend driving to and from ‘my place’, can garner you a lot more time in that ‘my space’. Everybody (women and men) has their own individual needs (not wants) as to how big and how often that ‘my space’ has to be and it will likely change over time. That need has to be expressed and respected if things are going to work out.
There are lots of scenarios when the Living Apart Together (LAT) arrangement makes the most sense and many of these are described in the article cited in Msg #52. If those scenarios don’t describe one’s situation, then you could ask yourself why you ‘need’ a separate ‘my place’ even after, say 12 months. If you realise that it is just what works best for you and isn’t just an excuse for not committing, then you should be up-front about it and it will become one of your ‘conditions’.
Why would you want to commit? When she walks from that bathroom at 3:05 AM on a midweek morning and you catch a glimpse of her naked body in the shadows and she returns smelling of toothpaste and your favourite perfume and snuggling up to you happy because you were thoughtful enough to leave the toilet seat down, you’ll know why!
"Grief can take care of itself, but to get the full value of a joy you must have somebody to divide it with." Mark Twain. | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/5/2009 8:45:55 AM | When I was married (for 18 years and lived with him for 4 years before that), the yard and outside duties (mowing, trimming, putting gas in my car, snow removal) were all my duties. He couldn't take care of household repairs. I replaced ceiling fans, light switches, ceiling light fixtures, electrical outlets, etc. I still do all of that today. Friday, I installed a 7 ft. solar lamp post on my deck, repaired the handle on my Weber Grill, replaced the pull-chain light fixture in my son's walk-in closet, and replaced the light switch in my bedroom. I saved myself a lot of money by being able to do these simple, fast installations and repairs. :)
I don't think that when the relationship is "right" that magically, you will want to live with the person. One person here complained that the woman wanted every sock picked up, every pan scoured as soon as he was done cooking...well, some of us [women] are not like that and are more relaxed. I clean up my kitchen, but sometimes I rinse the dishes and put them in the sink and then the major clean up is late that evening or the next morning. I have better things to do in life that chase dust 24/7.
My motto is now and has been for the past 6 years...I want him to keep his own place so when I get sick of him I can tell him to go home! And, he could do the same to me since I'd have my own place (and I have no doubt that he absolutely would tell me that...HA!). I won't say I'll never get married or live with someone again, but that will not be the issue that validates any relationship for me. If it happens, it happens, but it isn't my ultimate goal now. | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/5/2009 8:53:54 AM | callmelori said: My motto is now and has been for the past 6 years...I want him to keep his own place so when I get sick of him I can tell him to go home!
I think that is a place many men/women live in today.. Until I get tired of your face being in front of mine.. is the new commitment.. lol
thecatsmeoww | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/5/2009 9:09:14 AM |
I don't want to have to always be focused on what she wants in "her" home, nor always focused on her wants and needs.
I've had many years of co-habitating experience... not sure if you're just codependent by nature or you've managed to hook up with some real control freaks, but your view of being someone else's slave and a visitor in your own home seems rather extreme to me.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy having my space too. It's nice to be able to do whatever you want, whenever you want -- without discussion. But I really do miss the feeling of "our home". Things I did were so much more special when someone else was appreciating my efforts. I cared more about having food in the refrigerator, making the house nice -- than I do now living alone for 5 plus years.
I'm not miserable by any means. But if I had my preference, I would gladly choose to give up my selfish need for control of MY home to share space and enjoy the rewards of having OUR home. | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/5/2009 9:13:06 AM | Ren, I've seen you state it time after time "her house". That certainly wouldn't work for me, it's either "our house" or an important part of compatibility is missing. And if that part is missing, well, it's just the beginning to what could be called a doomed relationship. Other issues will surface.
I can only base my experience on a marriage that lasted almost 38 years. She was a small woman 5' 2" and her weight varied between 118-125. I realized from the onset there were certain things she couldn't do i.e. lawn maintenance, although at times we did sit and weed a garden together. plant vegetables etc. But she lacked the physical strength to do some things. I didn't mind and they certainly weren't assigned chores. Whenever I felt like it I'd hire lawn maintenance crews.
She also realized I was not only a man, but a man with flaws. Yep, I'd leave my socks laying around at times, and not on a daily/weekly basis but I was guilty of leaving the toilet seat up! Until she used it one night and I realized it's not only an inconvience to them, but can also be a hazard as well. Two bathrooms worked well for us.
As far as autonomy goes, well, we kept it. In a sense we may have become one, as far as mutual goals. But we also knew and realized there were things we did/liked independent of the other, and neither of us needed permission from the other!
Football/baseball games, well I certainly enjoyed thoughs more than her, at least at first. But there was never a feeling that either of us, regardless what it was we wanted to do was "inviolate" of the other, nor did either of us feel we were being "dimissed" if our wants happended to , for a better word clash. It's pretty simple when two adults understand that an important event like the super bowl as an example only comes once a year....yet shopping can at least wait until the game is over..or they take it upon themselves to just do it. That's called making concessions, also part of a good relationship.
She didn't expect me to give up those week long hunting or fishing trips I'd occassionally go on with the "guys". That was part of my autonomy. Neither did I expect her to give up hers, whenever she made plans or went to a "girls" thing, I was perfectly capable of fending on my own.
All I'm saying is if a person expects their love to give up total independence for a relationship...it's not only unfair, but again, probably a recipe for disaster.
One thing I can be sure of, our relationship would not have lasted had we made a decision to spend our lives in separate domains. Of course, that's just me. | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/5/2009 9:48:38 AM | Rick, it's not just you. That' s the gist of it isn't it? What do you allow to supersede the us?
It's true that the nitty-gritty can wear at the parts...if you let it. Build in arrangements that cater to needs for autonomous space and time for each in the new 'ours'...a 'his' or 'hers' bathroom, separate offices or dens and even bedrooms....along with some separate trips...is better by far than being separate at 'hers' or 'his' ...Living together is about intimacy and a sharing and intertwining of lives...silly! Isn't it???? .
dnto ^^^good points and post. I like the Twain quote. | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/5/2009 4:00:23 PM | If I felt I wouldn't want to live with someone it would speak volumes about the level of love and regard I held (or didn't hold) for them. That's just me tho'... and I have ended relationships in the past when I realized I would never feel that way for them. At a core level, I want a relationship, not recreation.
But that doesn't mean we have to (nor should we) give up our independence or autonomy completely. This morning my fellow said, as he'd been working the last few Sundays, he'd come to watch my daughter's hockey game tonight. My response was "Are you sure, you haven't had much alone time lately?" He said I was right and he'd see how he felt closer to when it was time to leave tonight. I enjoy having him there, and we have a great time together... but balance dictates we ALL need time for ourselves as well as time together. | |
|
| Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship?
Posted: 7/5/2009 5:22:27 PM |
callmelori Post #69---I want him to keep his own place so when I get sick of him I can tell him to go home! And, he could do the same to me since I'd have my own place
There is an important point in there, I think. In a relationship, at just the 6 month mark, often there are conflicts that start to come into things, as the "honeymoon" phase wears off. There are times, when allowing some time to dissipate hurt feelings goes a long way to healing.
If you're living together, small "issues" can fester and escalate. I know that I tend to get annoyed, if we've talked something through, but she's still giving me the "cold shoulder", or huffing and puffing, indicating anger with her every move. Then, to go to bed next to someone pissed off at me, starts to make me want to "shut down" emotionally.
I really try to avoid negativity, and living with someone, who is angry, is a very negative atmosphere. All of that is avoided, if, I can just go to my place, and allow a little time to bring a fresh perspective. | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
