| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/5/2009 9:48:50 AM | Landra wrote:
I view marriage as a legal, social, religious and moral commitment and sacred covenant
I see "living together" as a matter of convenience.
This I agree with; could not have said it better.
That piece of paper (approval from the State) that folk talk about, that is not what defines a marriage. When you stand before Family, Friends, and yes, God, standing next to your betrothed, to say your vows -- that's what creates a marriage. What makes a marriage is all that happens next.
TK
{Landra: Preach it sister, preach it} | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/5/2009 4:22:41 PM | Spokenfor- I totally agree with you. In fact, when explaining why marriages fail I usually reference the "disposable society". This very reason is WHY I made the post I did. Yes, there are some "old fashioned" people out there that believe it's forever and will weather the storms so to speak, but it seems like in today's world we have lost alot of our impulse control. This has also led to the stigma of being a divorcee to be lifted so the fear of being a black sheep is all but nonexistent.
I also blame much of it with the ever growing necessity to have both parents working just to provide a reasonably comfortable lifestyle. It's little wonder the flames of passion get snuffed out when you both get home from work and have a mountain of chores that have to be done.
And then the taboo subjects.
Woman's Lib.
Looking over the history of marriage it's only been in the last 50 years that women were truly considered equals. 1950 and before it was unheard of for women to do anything other than be a stay at home mom and be subservient to their men. It's a fairly major paradigm shift, so it's little wonder that an institution that relied on defined gender roles doesn't seem to work as well as it once did.
Organized religion
Organized religion doesn't have the same gravitas it once held. There was a point in time that it was believed that a divorce or adultery meant an eternity drowning in a Lake of Fire.... That's a pretty powerful motivator to get people to work through their problems.
Sex and the sexual revolution-
You don't need to wait for marriage, it's not a sacred act for procreation only, new demands on keeping it new and fresh.... etc etc etc The sexual side of relationships has changed as well. It's no wonder so many marriages fail when cheating is so common place.
Pandora's Box was opened.....
The thing is we cannot close the box and turn the clocks back to the "simpler, gentler" times. But who would if they could? I love independent women. And think it took too long to get where the sexes are at(of course there is still work to do). Should anyone be forced back into servitude?
Since society will probably not regress, then it's time for marriage law to progress to reflect the realities of today's world. If you look through the CDC or Census statistics fewer people are getting married than ever before and more are getting divorced. if the trend continues it won't be long until marriages are thing of the past...much like dowry's.
Taken from Census Bureau- number per 1000 people per capita
year marriages divorces
1900 19.2 2.0
1950 18.3 5.0
2007 11.3 6.8
(To be clear, my intent is not to be a misogynist...) | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/5/2009 4:27:36 PM |
My SO and I were having a general conversation yesterday about people getting married versus maintaining a committed long term relationship. We've both been married before and we each have our own opinions about the advantages and disadvantages of each decision. I was just curious about what ya'll thought about this topic.
We always hear folks say things like "it's only a piece of paper." Aside from that, what do you think is the difference between being a committed couple living together and being a married couple?
If I lived in a country where the gumment wasn't involved I'd say marriage is a wonderful thing. But in the U.S., marriage is a contract between a man , a woman and the government.. If there is a problem, the government is going to be on her side... The governement doesn't get involved in marriage in every culture. That is the way it should be ..' a blessed event'... not a notarized one... | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/5/2009 7:52:44 PM | There is a time to get out fast and easy, and it would be a good thing even for you to not
be restricted. And, really you never are, you can get a divorce on demand unless
there is a third party who wants their interests protected. Let's just say
you and I are married. We truely love each other. I have just been diagnosed with a disease that has a $350,000 treatment that has a 60% success rate. Our insurance will cover half of it. The 175,000 that must come out of OUR pockets will come out of the equity of our home which will only cover 60,000 of that. I end up dying, burial costs are 10,000 added to the 115,000 still owed for the medical expenses. We are both 67 years old. You are now 125,000 in debt, homeless, and have half the income you used to have. Had I been able to divorce you before getting the treatment, you'd still have the house (I would have given my equity to you), and you wouldn't have any of my debts. I couldn't divorce you because the state we live in requires we live in
seperate households for two years before even filing for divorce (they don't do this so we can try to save our marriage). This marriage contract only benefits third party creditors, not you. The only way you would benefit is if you or I divorce each other. Society (whether government, church, family, etc) restricts my choices, even when I am trying to help us (mostly you). Commitment isn't based on a marriage contract, it is based on what you do to each other, and for each other. When one of the partners wants to restrict the other by limiting their options out of fear or it's too easy for them to get away, that should raise a flag. The husband that says I love you, so if you ever leave me I'll hunt you down, is the same thing as the wife who says if you leave me I will take every nickle you ever earned, and then some. These people don't love you. They are only thinking about themselves and their own needs, and you will provide it for them. So, my position is to do good things to each other, love each other; but don't ever lock yourself in. Marriage is a big step, and it really isn't necessary if you love each other. Now they (society, which includes all of us) want to go beyond community property or common law marriage, and establish living-together agreements, and not just for same-sex. Who do you think benefits from that? They flower it up with medical/life decisions, inheritance rights, and every other thing the surviving
partner wants. The surviving partner is also going to get the liabilities, and there might
not be an inheritance. We keep trying to back away and tell them to leave us alone, and they keep trying to find a way into our front door and tell us we must. Since we seem to keep putting something in place for all partners, how about something for those who don't want to be held liable. How about every parnership of more than 2 years is considered a marriage, and for those that are more than 2 years we must have a legal non-commital agreement in effect. That would really protect yourself, and would really simplify everything. Who do you think wouldn't like that? They'll say whatever it takes to flower it up and get you to say "I want that." In the past if you weren't married, you were single. Now, you can't say you're not married without offending somebody. Just out of curiousity, for you single females out there that own your own homes, when you bought your house (or even buy any financial instruments), does the contract identify you as "An unmarried Woman." My contracts always say "An Unmarried Man." I guess they're trying to give me an inferiority complex. I even had a clerk insist that I had to put my non-existent wife's name as co-owner on my CDs or it was in violation of the law. Always trying to get their foot in the door. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/5/2009 8:06:25 PM | I know a guy (he is divorced btw) that states that "marraige isn't anything but a piece of paper and he would never get married again!!!" - BUT he has a second child with a woman that he lives with and has been with for years. After his bold statement, I asked him "so I take it your not married" and he says "hell no!" - but then I procede to find out he has the girlfriend at home with the kid, living in his house.
So, my point here is that he lives with her, has a kid with her, it's his girlfriend, but because he doesn't have that "peice of paper" he acts as though he is free to date other woman, act unmarried, act like he isn't in a serious relationship. My thoughts are, since it's "just a piece of paper", according to him, couldn't he technically be married then? | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/5/2009 8:38:36 PM | | footballmom, in some states he'd be considered common-law married. And I don't know why he thinks he'd be any better off if they split up now, after living together and having a kid than if he were married. I know people who've lived together and had kids and still had to get attornies and basically go through the equivalenet of a divorce, when they split. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/5/2009 8:42:41 PM | | I've never had a strong desire to get married but I'm not against it either. I'm perfectly capable of maintaining a relationship without the need of a marriage license. But for some folks, they want things in writing. Just depends on whatever floats your boat I guess. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/5/2009 10:33:40 PM | Wow. I know it's not a popular view lately but I really am surprised so few people made the argument on basing marriage on anything other than a piece of paper. Yea, it's a license. Yea, it has legal repercussions. But to me, even a marriage in a courthouse wouldn't count. Sure that piece of paper is signed and the vows are exchanged. But I think marriage is so much more than that. I do see it as a sacred covenant in the eyes of God. I came from a family who didn't believe in divorce exactly for that reason. To this day my mom and dad still aren't divorced even though she stands to gain so much. It was her choice and she decided to just end it with a legal separation. And I totally agree with the disposable society. I think too many people get married for all the wrong reasons to begin with. Everything's become too "instant gratification." If it doesn't work, chuck it, get a new one, don't fix it. But I just can't help but see it as a spiritual commitment as well and think the common law thing has only played into downplaying marriage in general.
And no, til death do us part shouldn't mean til I decide it's cheaper to kill you than divorce you either  But, I know everyone's entitled to their own opinions. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/5/2009 10:45:41 PM | The piece of paper changes everything. So, it is not just a piece of paper. One of my female friends broke up with her guy after 6 years. At 5 and 1/2 years, they got married.
I have too many stories. I am a proponent of not getting married under the eyes of the government; forget about a contract made by some government. It seems to be more of a ownership or "title" to a car. The government piece of paper is out of date. I do not want to feel like that I am being owned.
Commitment is the only way to go and have the freedom to leave when you want. This makes people work to maintain the relationship. The "title" throws out the freedom part and people don't work hard, because they have gotten what they want. Something is lost after the legalize marriage thing. Our divorce rates are a testament to this.
I would be more likely favor the route of church wedding or spiritual wedding without government involvement. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/5/2009 11:03:10 PM | | OP there is no difference..it's people who make to be different..isnt suppose to be any difference..people just make it to be different..marriage is a psychological thing | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/5/2009 11:12:30 PM | I side with landra2 and feel the same way. LTR doesn't have the level of commitment. It's also easier to walk away.
No its not easier to walk away..that is a very silly notion MANY people have..sure maybe its hard to walk away PHYSICALLY but emotionally/mentally its very easy to walk away. Anyway, ever wonder why divorce is so common?..if it was harder to walk away why are so many people getting divorced? and so many married people cheating?.. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/6/2009 4:00:17 AM |
...what do you think is the difference between being a committed couple living together and being a married couple?
if you split, one doesn't cost money, and the other one does. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/6/2009 4:04:48 AM | | I rather jump the broomstick. You get to wear the dress of your dreams, and have a party for your SO, friends, and family. There is no messy paperwork, and it is all natural with no one to condemn you. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/6/2009 4:00:09 PM |
I rather jump the broomstick. You get to wear the dress of your dreams, and have a party for your SO, friends, and family. There is no messy paperwork, and it is all natural with no one to condemn you.
uh... Don't know about other men.. but when I dream I'm not wearing a dress... I think if those are your reasons you should change your fish to a self-fish..  | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/6/2009 5:08:44 PM |
We always hear folks say things like "it's only a piece of paper." Aside from that, what do you think is the difference between being a committed couple living together and being a married couple?
Legalities. That's the only difference I can see. Like Rune said, Lawyers make more money of splitting marrieds than they ever would from splitting couples.
It seems the more time that passes the more we see marriage becoming quite antiquated in its own right. Marriage used to mean something, but now hardly anyone takes their vows seriously anymore or they just don't even bother like they used to once upon a time.
Marriage is dying a slow death. I think it may have a lot to do with the "hit and run" marriages we see so many of these days, combined with a clear disparity in divorce laws that is making marriage unappealing to more and more people. Never all, but a good lot of them.
I suppose this plays a big role in why more and more people are just opting to co-habitate instead of actually walking the aisle. Marriage has virtually no merit at all for a man (I honestly can't think of even ONE benefit...)...but for a woman she can go from Skid Row to Beverly Hills with just a divorce settlement.
No surprise to me that so many are choosing to ignore the "White Mile" these days. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/6/2009 5:32:04 PM |
We always hear folks say things like "it's only a piece of paper." Aside from that, what do you think is the difference between being a committed couple living together and being a married couple?
I think there's absolutely no difference except that some people are religious and some like symbolism. You are either committed to another person or you're not (obviously that can change over time due to a myriad of circumstances, resulting in splits). I don't even think that legalities in this day and age play any major role when all you have to do is live common law fir six months to have a majority of the legalities attached to you as though you are legally married. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/6/2009 10:18:33 PM |
but for a woman she can go from Skid Row to Beverly Hills with just a divorce settlement.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Uhhh, no. That is definitely gender neutral. Just because most of the time it's the man that gets taken doesn't mean that's how it happens. She has to marry INTO Beverly Hills. Otherwise, half of a man who can't afford it doesn't mean a damn thing. And second, this is what prenups are for. A woman, if she makes more than the man, for sure is getting taken to the cleaners in a divorce settlement. She sure as hell isn't taking half his stuff and getting alimony. So if you wanna put it that way, blame your own society for paying most women even this day in age 75% of what a man earns. That is just so very very wrong. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/6/2009 10:36:52 PM |
blame your own society for paying most women even this day in age 75% of what a man earns.
Well if they only do 75% of the work, why would they get paid 100% of the same wage?
Guess you never thought of that huh? | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/6/2009 10:42:53 PM |
what do you think is the difference between being a committed couple living together and being a married couple?
The cost of the split-up?
Personally, I think there's more committment with marriage...and I've never been married. It's just so easy to shack up and move in together. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/6/2009 10:55:53 PM | LTR without living together would be perfection. I know some couples who are truly in love and committed to one another, but have opted to retain their own "space", not to mention their own stuff...they vacation together, and eat dinner together most nights, and know and care about each other's children and families. They are there for each other when one is ill, or needs moral support. They don't appear to fight much--perhaps they know when it is a good time to retreat to their own quarters.
The couples I know who do this successfully are more in my parents' age group than mine, but ideally, that's what I would like. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/6/2009 11:03:16 PM | I can hardly believe the depth of some of the answers on this thread. Some of you need to pat yourselves on the back for providing some real perspective and informational web content.
Spicynicegirl,
I was reading somewhere that it can become a huge hassle if you're living in a defacto relationship and suddenly one of you becomes seriously ill (hospital situation). It happened to this couple and because the woman wasn't his wife there were all sorts of complications.
It is one of the main justifications for "Gay Marriage." Most other reasons are just excuses and fanfare. The hospitals and insurance companies treat gay couples like second class citizens. That part is certainly unfair.
For me, marriage is for the children. The kids need a family unit and the type of support structure that comes with one. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/6/2009 11:04:15 PM |
Well if they only do 75% of the work, why would they get paid 100% of the same wage?
Wow, just wow. This is my last post to you because this kind of ignorance is only breeded by too deep of an anger and hurt for me to take on. A woman and man, with the same gpa graduate law school. There is a very VERY real chance the woman is going to be offered a lesser salary than the man. That's just fact. Look up the statistics. Look up the averages. And don't spew any more crap that the man is working more. Reality is a retarded wakeup call especially when EVERYONE is paying the same amount for law school.
I am THE furthest thing from a feminist. But I've seen women work way harder than me, and WAY harder than a lot of men and get crap in return. It EXISTS. It shouldn't. You sound like just another man tryin to ride the coattails of someone successful pretending you're doing them a favor. Get over yourself. You get what you put in. Period. Always has been my opinion, always will be. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/6/2009 11:16:35 PM |
This is my last post to you because this kind of ignorance is only breeded by too deep of an anger and hurt for me to take on.
And we're all thankful that the "wah wah wah they make more than her" claptrap will cease so the rest of the class can get back to the topic.
Marriage vs. LTR...who was next in line? | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/7/2009 1:49:00 AM | Marriage is for the other people you love: Your parents, your siblings, your kids, your neices and nephews, your grandchildren. Marriage is about Family. If you get married, it means you commit and everyone who loves you both can understand that you will be together. Like a team, a couple, etc.
If you are just roomies or F buddies or palsie-walsies, then - how is everyone else supposed to know who you two are?
Marriage is a commitment you make and, an arrangement you make for the sake of all the other people you love. | |
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| Marriage vs LTR
Posted: 7/7/2009 1:49:17 AM | | I agree with Spoken For. Already anticipating the break up means there is no real commitment to begin with. When the going gets tough, the Hedonist goes running. | |
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