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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 7:46:41 PM | OP
Interesting question about human nature. Most posters seem to agree that it's a human tendency for some, not a man versus woman thing. I would tend to agree. The critical question is WHAT was the disagreement about. If it was something that is based on a person's character, something like, "I disagree with having the right to have a concealed weapon," and he agreed and you disagreed and you expect him to apologize for that, well, it probably won't happen, it's too much of a character issue for him. If is was something less serious, for example, he went against the grain and proclaimed that M. Night Shymalan's films are silly, and you wanted him to apologize for that, well, surprise, it's still a character issue.
Where the issue of apologies versus "agreeing to disagree" come in is when one or the other is wrong about perceptions of fact, and the misperception led to some hurt feelings or rude behavior. A balanced person will apologize after seeing the error of his/her ways. This will not happen if there is disagreement about whether the action was improper. One of my friend's wife was incensed by the fact that her husband (they were well off), repeatedly confronted cashiers when an item "on sale" was scanned in for the full price. She felt embarrassed by this and he insisted on doing this because he felt like it was a moral obligation to hold the store accountable, and, you guessed it, she demanded an apology for his actions. This might seem funny but he mentioned that this was one of the things that really bugged him about his wife -- her inability to see why he did things like this, not because of the money, but because of the principle.
I mentioned the above example because, and I know this sounds like an old song, communication is important. If after communication it is clear that the values of one leads to behavior that is not acceptable to another, then it's time to move on. At the core of it, it might be a values issue that you are dealing with, and not the inability to apologize. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 7:51:00 PM | | so..the answer to getting feelings hurt, is hurt them back...hmmm, well, throughout your post you deny any error in any of it, you also stated, your ex would never apologize, so does this mean you are taking issues with you to other relationships? yes/no/maybe, just trying to get what your saying straight, seem cloudy at the most part, as far as being correct...just an opinion | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 7:54:51 PM | | so..the answer to getting feelings hurt, is hurt them back...hmmm, well, throughout your post you deny any error in any of it, you also stated, your ex would never apologize, so does this mean you are taking issues with you to other relationships? yes/no/maybe, just trying to get what your saying straight, seem cloudy at the most part, as far as being correct...just an opinion | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 8:44:40 PM | | Gee.After reading some of these responses, it's amazing anybody would ever post a question here. Seems some are working out their own issues | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 9:00:31 PM | The reality from where I see it is that some men don`t really care if you are sensitive and they have hurt your feelings. They don`t feel that you have any reason to be hurt.
So they have nothing to apologise for, so why would they?
If they can always pull out the " Oh, you are just too sensitive" disclaimer, they can justify saying anything. I never expect any kind of apology for any kind of behavior or communication. Nor would I demand it. They aren`t going to apologize because they feel free to say or act in whatever way they see fit. If you don`t like it, it is your issue not theirs.
So then we as women have the choice of how to deal with this. Either accept it and don`t wait for an apology that will never come, or not see him again. Guys are different and don`t care so much about hurting feelings. Bringing things up or trying to get them to see your point of view is just a big waste of time, and they don`t respect you any more. The only thing they understand is if you dump them and don`t take them back. That they understand. Not that they won`t have a new one tomorrow night.
Basically, you are trying to force a guy into saying he is sorry when he is not, and guys don`t force well, You have to be willing to accept or reject their behavior, tell them in one sentence why, or you lose them. Nothing they hate worse than being lectured about emotiona sh!t. With most guys it`s more of a " I`m going to do or say whatever I want, take it or leave it. " You aren`t going to change his ways, and he seldom cares how his behavior is effecting your emotions. Best to leave.
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 9:18:38 PM | | Wildflower: you are so right. Part of the reason most of my girlfriends have absolutely no interest in dating any longer. They just can't be bothered with what you describe. they want to leave those men to women who feel their lives are incomplete without them. In the meantime, these women are living great lives and not missing this BS!!!! | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 9:22:40 PM | OP You gave us some general information about a situation and asked the pond for views and opinions. This is what you are getting, not condemnation nor applause. Just views.
You obviously have the right to your reality, and the personal responsibility to stand up and be responsible for it. Each of us has our reality. If yours is insulted by someone else's, you have the opportunity to explain your position or leave. The other individual has the opportunity to respond as they feel they must. There is no right or wrong, black or white, here in the pond of human frailties. There is a difference of opinion, of realities.
We each react to your words thru our individual prisms. You made a broad generalization and asked for our views, not our validation. I may or may not agree with you. I may agree with Farq! [ed. note: good grief, did she just say that????] I can't make an informed decision without the information. You've listed your feelings, but without details about the patronizing, insensitive, personally minimizing and overtly superior things these men said to you, I can't validate either party. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 9:46:54 PM | I am guessing what happened is that a man said something, your feelings were hurt and you told him so. Then he felt blamed and got defensive.
Perhaps he was careless and insensitive, but he hadn’t intended to hurt you, so he refused to apologize. He wouldn’t accept the blame. But he wouldn’t express regret for your pain either. Worse, he invalidated your feelings, suggesting you had no right to be hurt. And disrespecting your pain hurt even more than the original slight. Ouch. You’d have a right to be pissed.
So where do you go from there (when it's time to go anywhere with this, which may not be yet)? You suggest that many men in this age group have a very hard time apologizing. I’m sure you’re right.
Perhaps men of any age group have a hard time. Maybe even some women. That’s not your problem.
But where you go with this could lead you to certain attitudes that may not serve you well.
If you decide to judge and reject all men because of your experiences with a few, you could fall into a trap that can be difficult to get out.
If you had a few negative experiences with black men, and decided to judge and reject all black men, that would be a kind of prejudice we all recognize as harmful – specially to yourself. And we all know the word for that kind of attitude.
Many men are deeply flawed, but they are not at all deserving of hatred and bigotry. What's happened to you will soon fade in significance. What you choose to do with it will have a much greater impact on your life. Choose well.
And about the pain you suffered - I'm sorry it happened. It sounds like a demeaning, diminishing experience. It shouldn't have happened. I'm sorry. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 10:11:13 PM | Anyone can empathize with your perception of events, but expecting them to apologize for behavior they do not believe justify an apology, is an imposition on how they feel about the issue. You can't circumvent someones feelings because they don't feel like you do about every disagreement.
People apologize when they understand they've done something wrong, trying to make someone feel sorry when they really aren't is futile. It's a normal reaction to become defensive if someone is trying to make me accept wrong doing because they "feel" offended.
Actually if it's done too many times, the other person might think you're trying to manipulate them with your how-come-you-don't-understand-I'm offended displays of discontentment. A lack of knowledge about gender differences in verbal/communicative behaviour will always keep people on the merry-go-round of frustration.
Many people do not have control of their feelings, and just about any thing said or done causes them to feel hurt. Personally I think those type people should stay single, to prevent untold emotionally related problems with other people. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 10:26:43 PM |
The latest situation we sat in my car for an hour while I tried to explain to this man that denying my feelings is disprespectful. he finally said he would not apologize. I told him to get out and I drove away
You kicked him out of your car because he wouldn't apologize???? I think the most important topic of this thread should be *your* behaviour, your reaction and your solution.
If a man ever kicked me out of his car for any reason, I would never, ever be with him again. It's adolescent and controlling in the extreme.
Inability to apologize is not gender specific. Interesting that you make it a gender issue. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 10:38:18 PM | OP
i think you can express your feelings, let someone know that you are hurt or angry or whatever
but
you cannot make them sorry. that has to come from within.
when you encounter this type of behavior, someone who will deny your feelings, minimize them, or deny any wrongdoing, the best thing to do is express your feelings and let the chips fall. you cannot make someone want to see it your way or be sorry.
i think one of my life lessons is to never demand something, like an apology, or taking responsibility, basically manning up. if that is who he is, and that does not work for you, move on to someone who is a better fit. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 11:42:19 PM | The fact that you spent "an hour" trying to convince someone of a different point of view and repeatedly grasping for an apology shows that there is an inability to know how to properly communicate along with a lack of awareness of when to stop expressing yourself. The topic pales in importance to what reads as a co-dependant back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.....
Since he stayed in the car that long going back and forth with you in the same unhealthy behavior, I'd say you both got along well. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/11/2009 11:58:49 PM | I don't know why is it tough for women to forgive and more importantly forget? Nothing like having an argument from months or years ago be thrown back in our face to back up a point a lady is trying to make. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/12/2009 12:02:17 AM | I have a hard time getting past the fact you didn't get your way about an emotional issue and you made him walk home.
You thought you were right, he thought he was right.
10 minute walk or not, it was rude to do.
And you don't even see that.
You think it was okay because, after all, you were right.
In our lives we are going to run into people who just don't feel the same way we do about issues.
Sometimes, we even stupidly try to have a meaningful relationship with a person who really is too far away from our take on reality for there to be much of any relationship, let alone 'meaningful', and for sure not 'loving'.
You finally realized the man you were seeing was such a person.
Such is life. We're not all matches.
But you couldn't even drive him home? | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/12/2009 12:12:43 AM | Msg 1: "... told me that he ***always*** apologized in his marriage and therefore has a hard time with it now."
- You were shacking up with a total wuss. Further details about him in future posts aren't worth reading.
"I don't find him unusual." - So you only shack up with wusses.
"I find men in this age group to be highly defensive." Not true. However, passive-aggressive wusses can get plain defensive when attacked. Your escalative phrase "highly defensive" is code for "wrongly defensive". Otherwise, a woman of letters could simply write "defensive". Waddup superlatives wid ppl?
"If you upset somebody and they call you on it," - Wow. Stuck in the 70s. You like the phrase "call you on it", don't you? Very over-assertively bourgeois. Bet you think you get your way lots, too.
My turn. Scenarios:
S1. He does or says something wrong or clearly inappropriate. You experience feelings as the result.
S2. He does or says something. You choose to be UPSET (yes, but which variant: Angry, Sad, Worthless, Fearful)
S1: You (eventually) wrongly make your feelings the problem, i.e. before the supposed "wrong". Imagine this business scenario: [A coworker announces to another/others, "Hey, MFer(s) I am really teedoff, and besides that my feelings are really, really, REALLY hurt. Apologize now!"]. Greater problem is a failure to define the wrong.
S1 solution: Succinctly define the problem (the wrong) to him first, without feelings, in 25 words or less. If you can't/won't do this, you are a man hating Old Maid - go directly to Jail. If he disagrees or rejects the problem as defined, dump him, then go out and celebrate with your friends.
S2 solution: Succinctly define your feelings as they stem from what he said or did in 50 words or less (budget roughly 25 words each for his actions, your feelings). Afterward ask him to paraphrase you. If he doesn't sit still to listen, or figuratively "jumps off a cliff" after listening, or cannot paraphrase you, dump him, then go out and celebrate with your friends. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/12/2009 12:34:54 AM | +++find these posts fascinating, especially those from people who feel I have no right to feel what I feel. If I ever caused anybody to be offended,my first reaction would be to apologize for having caused somebody to think I didn't care about them or their feelings. but the posts who say I have the issue- thank you. It reinforces my sense that some people really lack empathy, are very judgemental and my guy was in that camp
This, I believe is your problem - you are displaying signs of "transference" - that is criticism of others for faults you have yourself. You are not listening to what other people are saying (OK some more kindly than others), and assuming you are right - traits you display in the argument you had with your bf. I really wonder just how quickly you would apologise to someone if you felt you had done nothing to apologise for - like the man in question? The old adage "would you rather be right or happy" falls firmly in the "right" category with yourself - to be honest this is something that I have personally been guilty of in a relationship , so I tend to recognise it when I see it.
I also learned (eventually) that giving out for an hour or more to a harrowed lump of male flesh, whether they did need to apologise or not, only makes them defensive, and yourself angry and frustrated. If you do this to him a lot - insisting that he apologises to you for faults you have perceived either rightly or wrongly - your relationship will end, and end badly. Think about that. So he was wrong - if the situation wasn't life threatening, let it go. If it wasn't about theft, deciet, infidelity or abuse of any nature - let it go, its not worth it. Believe me, you're not always right! Communication is about both parties to the discussion accepting that the other has a point of view - something women are generally very good at doing with their girlfriends, but not with the men in their life. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/12/2009 1:34:43 AM | Funny, I always apologized to my ex-wife. I apologized for the F'd up stuff that she did that pissed me off. See, she was a master at turning the conversation from her misbehavior to my tone at addressing her. I was too controlling and spoke down to her etc. In this way, she didn't need to deal with her bad behavior.
For example, she was a stay at home mom and I started telling her to take one night off each week and go do something without the kids. Then she started going to the local bars and made a drinking buddy friend of a divorced guy she met at the bar and then started staying out until 0400 when the bars close at 0200. The multitude of times that I confronted her about this behavior, she turned the conversation around to how I was talking to her about it. As you might imagine, I was pretty upset by these behaviors and I was loud and forceful in my speech. Instead of addressing the issue of her behavior, she instead would switch the discussion to my "blasting her" and thereby avoid having to take responsibility for unacceptable behavior. Once I got control of my tone and word choice, then she would twist things around and assert that nothing was going on, that the only reason I was upset was because of my upbringing, and that no one else but me would have a problem with her behavior and that I was controlling and trying to control her.
The funny thing is that she got involved with two men after she had decided that we were getting divorced, but, had failed to mention that little tidbit to me. One man is our age(early 40s) and divorced, while the other is ten years younger and never married. I believe that she would agree with the OP's premise and that neither of her new guys or me are capable of apologizing etc. I also know that both of her new guys see in her the same things that I did, namely her inability to accept responsibility for what she does.
To bring this back to the OP, my ex-wife sees her two current guys and me as being men who treat her badly in verbally talking down to her and treating her like she's stupid. However, all three men have the same complaint of her, that she won't take responsibility for the things she does and that she is ever so adept at twisting things around so that it's our fault.
While the OP's rant is probably satisfying and strikes a chord with some, I suspect that a neutral third party would see some responsibility falling on her shoulders as well. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/12/2009 2:32:27 AM | .
I agree with msg 37, and would like to add that I wouldn't apolgize
either if I didn't do anything wrong.
If he such an insensitive clod who won't apologise for hurting your
feeling why do you care. He's not the man for you.
Move on and find a guy that will apologize on command,
or take him farther from home.
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arie46
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Joined: 6/13/2009
Msg: 44 | |
| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/12/2009 3:29:59 AM | Relating the new guy to the husband? Not good. I do however, see your point! Standing up for yourself is paramount, just not try to do the overkill thing.
Even though ten minutes from home? You already spent and hour talking. Drive him home. He would have been the biggest loser. Men hate being chastised. Heck we hate it! That good old power and control wheel.. I'm all for empathy, but the end result? IS how do you feel??
I think principles are important, standards, expectations as well. But if sitting in a car (one hour) having a discussion that went absolutely no where? Waste of time. I would have dropped him within 10 minutes history or not if in fact there was no feedback. Leave him with a smile!
My bad?
A | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/12/2009 4:58:25 AM | Thank you OhDriver. Finally, somebody with the compassion and empathy to get it. I would never refuse to apologize to anybody who felt that I hurt or offended them. I was with a wuss- as one poster said. And I am no longer with him. His ex left him for the same reason I told him to get out of my car. I should have known better.
And true. It's not just men, but women too. Just that I pick my friends well and have never experienced it with women but have heard many complaints from them about men.
And those who said I shouldn't have tried to make him see my point of view, I don't agree. If somebody doesn't get it, I think I have an obligation to talk long enough to get to resolution. In this case, he finally stated his position clearly- something he wasn't doing all along. That was the information I needed to judge his character. It took him that long to tell the truth. Until then, he was avoiding and deflecting. I needed the truth and I got it. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/12/2009 5:01:22 AM |
The latest situation we sat in my car for an hour while I tried to explain to this man that denying my feelings is disprespectful. he finally said he would not apologize. I told him to get out and I drove away (he was a 10 min walk from his home).
No big deal, I'm sure the guy was more than grateful for being able to get out of this situation, I would have hopped, skipped and jumped from a much longer distance. 
Basically, you are trying to force a guy into saying he is sorry when he is not, and guys don`t force well,
Nothing they hate worse than being lectured about emotiona sh!t.
^^^^^^^  Northern Wildfire......Wiser words have not been spoken 
I don't think it's that we don't care how our behavior has affected your feelings, we are sorry that your feelings are hurt, we just don't understand your sensitivity or your eagerness to get that point across to us, and some one very wise once said this
Nothing they hate worse than being lectured about emotiona sh!t. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/12/2009 5:08:36 AM | Ohdriver very nicely captures the good side of the "I'm sorry if when I did XYZ, you felt upset/sad/patronized" kind of apology. It does offer a way to acknowledge another's hurt even when you did not intend any harm and at the same time offers you an alternative to the defensiveness that comes from feeling that you are falsely blamed.
As long as these powers are used for good, not the evil of sidestepping responsibility when we do mess up and hurt someone, then all is ok.
I'm not sure how you "teach" this stuff to another adult . . . model the behavior yourself? Then walk (or drive) away if they are not interested or willing to consider another way of approaching conflict? | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/12/2009 5:19:52 AM | | I tried to explain to this man that denying my feelings is disrespectful well you are doing the same thing If he doesn't fell the need to apologize then you are asking him to say what you want to hear. so you are disrespecting him and making him walk home was really mature he will really be ready to just tell you things you want to hear now. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/12/2009 5:31:56 AM | you have a thick skin, yet you know when you're being patronized.
and then: "I have had more round and round and round discussions with men who I feel have upset me who will minimize or deny my feelings."
and then: "...he finally said he would not apologize. I told him to get out and I drove away (he was a 10 min walk from his home)."
i'm just stringing together a picture here based on what you've said, but i have a hunch that your skin is not very thick at all... at least when it comes to certain issues that you feel a need to discuss repeatedly. but the discussion never gets anywhere does it (as you said).... or at least, it doesn't end in the result that you wanted. which apparently has something to do with a man acknowledging your reality. so did you acknowledge his? i wonder... and when an hour-long debate about your feelings doesn't provide you with the payoff you wanted, now the guy has to get out of the car and walk home? but you have a "thick skin".... WTF!
excuse me but i smell drama.
maybe your perspective is a little warped. maybe somebody you've just had a no-win , dead-end discussion with sincerely does not believe that he should have to be painted into a corner to apologize for a situation that is entirely of your own making. i said maybe! or maybe you're making a mountain out of a molehill. or maybe, you're just not very good at communicating your feelings. maybe you're leaving stuff out, and maybe it's all a misunderstanding, because you left stuff out.
so there's a disconnect here, and it's yours, because it keeps happening to you, which means you should own it and quit trying to make other people responsible for your feelings.
since you've admitted it's an ongoing issue, i think at least a more dispassionate review of the reasons for your feelings and the contrary feedback you're getting from other people about them is in order. i think that's something that will require nothing less than a bit of very honest self-inquiry. | |
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| Why is it tough for men to say I'm sorry.
Posted: 7/12/2009 5:32:56 AM | The collective wisdom in this thread is literally awesome. I'm in awe of many of you who have posted here. Most of all Krebby, but so many of you have posted wise words and there is much for me to learn here.
One thing I actually do know: either like/accept them the way they are or move on. It's impossible to change anybody. Fifty hours in the car isn't going to make someone change. Only thing we can change is ourselves.
And there is one other thing I do know: there are some good single men out and about. Generalizing one man's behavior to all men is just, well, wrong. | |
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