|
|
|
|
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 9:39:02 AM | Many many years ago in 7th grade we were taught both theories. This was a school in the out laying areas of Houston, Texas.
To me that would be the better compromise, especially if the teacher does it correctly. A good teacher would not knock either theory but give good research on both theories, with time for questions but not classroom debate. This would leave the students with some discussions to bring home and discuss with their parents and friends.
In college it was another story. We were told the following week that evolution would be the topic. We were informed that evolution was part of the Anthropology curriculum and there would be no debating it. Our professor said that there would be time for questions. She would not take any controversial type questions nor allow a full blown debate to happen . If by any chance it became a full blown debate we would all be assigned a 10 page essay on the topic of her choice. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 9:50:15 AM |
Many many years ago in 7th grade we were taught both theories.
"Both" theories? Evolution is the only theory. Creationism/ID is NOT a theory in the valid scientific sense of the term, but just a bunch of right-wing religious bullshit with no basis in anything. (Remember, the bible is a work of fiction with a few historical references. It is by no means any sort of authority on anything, whatsoever!) | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 10:17:30 AM |
The fact of evolution is the basis of all biology, and by extension of all applications of biology (notably including medicine.) Trying to learn biology or any anything related to biology without it is like trying to learn physics without math.
Anyone who seriusly believes the absolute falsehood that evolution has not been conclusively proven is either tragically brainwashed or a complete f***ing idiot.
Pretty much.
You would think this nonsense would have been settled at the Dover trial. When Micheal Behe was laughed out of court when he made his pathetic attempt for intelligent design.
Its gets proven time and again that it has no basis in reality. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 10:19:32 AM |
To me that would be the better compromise, especially if the teacher does it correctly. A good teacher would not knock either theory but give good research on both theories, with time for questions but not classroom debate. This would leave the students with some discussions to bring home and discuss with their parents and friends.
creationism is NOT a theory. Its not even a stance. Without evolution it cannot stand on its own. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 10:32:17 AM | Having taught both creation science and evolution I can say without fear that I dont believe either of them are true. Both theories have holes in them that, if it were not on this subject and by those who support them, would not hold up at all as ever proper scientific theory let alone facts. For example: meta evolution, or the evolution within one type of creature is a proven fact. For example if evolution did not exist when did wild poodles roam the earth? answer is never. we bred em. As for the theory of evolution. From what I have read, and I have not read that extensivly. The odds of evolution going from non living matter to current evolutionary level of man would be about the same odds as hitting the lottery three weeks running with the same numbers. possible but im not taking the bet. In additon to that when it comes to scientific proof we can neither prove divine creation or random selection as the cause for life as we cant go question god on how he did it. nor can we take a rock and make it turn into a man. bottom line it cant be observed and cant be replicated. therefore scientifically speaking creation or evolution must always remain a theory.  | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 10:43:16 AM | Intelligent design is a theory, although it does not go against evolution necessarily. Also, it does not necessarily suggest the existence of a deity of any sort. Based on the premises of ID, it is possible that aliens from a distant galaxy seeded the earth with DNA and let life evolve from that.
But we all know that ID is just religion in disguise and is used solely to push a strictly religious agenda under the guise of science. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 11:19:30 AM |
Why am I not surprised that you're from Texas?
Sorry to burst your bubble but I was not born in Texas and was only in Texas for about 7 years, ..Most would probably consider me a Californian. Yet where I hang or hung my hat has nothing to do with the matter.
That is why I say it is better to attack the Post rather than the Poster...You get a lot more mileage.
Both Creationsism and Evolution are considered THEORIES
As pointed out by some on here and other places there are some very good THEORIES behind what some call Creationism and some call Intelligent Design. There are also some very good THEORIES behind what some call Evolution.
That is why I am for the teaching of both THEORIES.
Since there is a wide variation in the meaning of Theory I decided not to include a defination of theory in my post. It looks like the word Theory would make a good debate in itself. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 12:02:02 PM | | I believe that ID is a theory, but not evolution. Evolution is a fact. And I don't believe that ID should be taught in schools as a theory. There is a theory that the mob killed JFK, but I don' t think that theory should be told to children to explain how the president was assassinated. Some theories are outlandish and baseless and don't belong in the education system. ID is one of them. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 12:23:03 PM |
I believe that ID is a theory, but not evolution. Evolution is a fact.
Wrong and wrong!
Evolution is a theory based on observation and hypothesis and is still changing.
Creationism/ID is a set of statements with no backup or possibility of challenge.
In science a theory is put out there and other scientists try to prove/disprove it, recently Stephen Hawking changed his view of his own theory regarding Black Holes. A theory is never a fact, it is a set of ideas that reflect current thinking from the evidence/observations available.
Science never has a problem challenging a theory based on new evidence/observations, this is not the case with Creationism/ID which is faith-based. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 12:48:22 PM |
Wrong and wrong!
Evolution is a theory based on observation and hypothesis and is still changing.
Creationism/ID is a set of statements with no backup or possibility of challenge..
I don't agree, for the simple that that nearly EVERYTHING is subject to change and therefore would constitute as "theory"-- which then becomes a pointless term. Biology is not a theory, but it is based on observation and hypothesis and is always changing. Ever heard of the theory of biology? I haven't. Biology, like evolution, is just fact. There are a slew of caveats and quailifiers to that though.
ID is a theory mainly because of the concept of Irreducible Complexity. It makes sense, in "theory", because it states that complex things must have been created by something even more complex. It uses logic and actual observation to help legitmize itself as a theory, however, it does fail as a matter of fact when put under scrutiny. But on the surface it is a sound theory. It is far better than "goddidit" which is not a theory at all. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 12:50:31 PM | I think I was very lucky in how I was taught and brought up. I had a professor who personally showed me the limitation and the power of logical proof. He showed me how to write out proof tables and use axioms postulates and theorems to prove something. He did this through geometry but I think its the most powerful thing I've ever been taught.
There was really important lesson he taught me. And he put it like this. Imagine only being able to see the 1% of an elephant. You'll probably see its dark gray skin. How it lacks luster and seems creased. Now you will go away and describe exactly what you see. Now imagine another person viewing only the eye of the elephant. It seems reflective, round and may be dark brown in color. Now that person goes away and describes what he has seen. The two meet and know they have been looking at the same thing. But one is adamant that what he has described is the thing he has seen while the other contends that it's not.
I think evolution is the same way. Its a very young science. Biology (in comparison to math and physics) is a very young science also. Neuroscience has just come on the scene and we're just beginning to get a view of how the human brain works. All in all we don't know enough to be drawing conclusions. It is reasonable for high schools only to teach what they know and not what can be debated. College however is a place for exploring the fringe of topics like evolution.
Also he taught me another thing which I found interesting. It was the lack of communication between sciences. Evolutionists seems to always lean on the assumption that life is a deterministic series of non random events which leads to a mutation and over time a different species. They seem to forget the two slit experiment, uncertainty principle, probability waves and the mere fact that something happens the way it happens because we look at it. Also altruism, benevolence the reason for dying and human nature, ethics, morality, beliefs, philophosies and the list goes on are not easily explained by evolution. The lay man will look at evolution and attempt to explain these things through it. And therein lies the mistake.
I have met many Bible believing church going hallelujah praising evolutionist. They understand that any matter pertaining to God is unprovable since it is a universal negative and that evolution is a means of explaining how a phenomenon works. They also do not agree with creationists as they understand that they too are trying to use something to explain what it was not meant to explain. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 1:20:16 PM | coveredinpaint:
In science everything is a theory until it is proved inconclusively to be so. Biology has many caveats and qualifiers because not all events can be explained.
ID is not a theory because it is not based on observation but an idea. ID was created because Creationism had too many religious connotations. The use of the word 'must' is not something that is prevalent in the scientific community, a better word is 'could'.
My background is in science, lots of physics and chemistry in school. I now write test software in the defense industry and we do not accept many things as fact. We test and retest and retest using many different scenarios until we are sure we can say "it will work very nearly all the time". I have seen test systems display problems many years after deployment because there was a set of circumstances that we had not thought of or allowed for.
A fact is only something that exists until someone disproves it. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 1:27:23 PM | intoart, got any proof of evolution for me?
notice, no bad words.
you haven't got any, and never will, because there isn't any.
gonna give me the 100, 000 pages of proof answer?
anyone? frogo?
dukky, tell me, what I want isn't available, is it? | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 1:38:41 PM | thrums,
ID is not a theory because it is not based on observation but an idea.
Also not true. Scientists have observed bacterial flagellum which have incredibly small, yet efficient, mechanical parts that function at near optimal efficiency given their size and make up. A perfectly reasonable theory is that something designed these, and that they didn't just come about out of random chance. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 1:51:45 PM | coveredinpaint
Also not true. Scientists have observed bacterial flagellum which have incredibly small, yet efficient, mechanical parts that function at near optimal efficiency given their size and make up. A perfectly reasonable theory is that something designed these, and that they didn't just come about out of random chance.
Not true, a theory not only tries to explain observations but puts forward hypothesis of further changes. A theory says if action A happens then reaction B will happen. If enough scientists can duplicate the experiment then the theory is plausible until someone else puts forward contradictory data. A theory is only a fact until conflicting data appears.
Evolution holds to that paradigm, ID does not! | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 1:56:57 PM | @ aremeself...
Seen any reports about antibiotic-resistant bacteria lately...? That's evolution in action.
Look at a poodle, or a chihuahua, or a pit bull - they are products of evolution by artificial selection... so why is evolution by natural selection so hard to accept...? | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 2:03:23 PM |
@ aremeself...
Seen any reports about antibiotic-resistant bacteria lately...? That's evolution in action.
Look at a poodle, or a chihuahua, or a pit bull - they are products of evolution by artificial selection... so why is evolution by natural selection so hard to accept...?
The examples you quote are genetic engineering not artificial selection. Natural selection is a species adapting to its environment without external influence. We bread white mice for scientific study yet they could not live in the wild without evolving, something the animal rights groups forget when they attack a laboratory and release them! | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 2:16:43 PM |
Not true, a theory not only tries to explain observations but puts forward hypothesis of further changes. A theory says if action A happens then reaction B will happen. If enough scientists can duplicate the experiment then the theory is plausible until someone else puts forward contradictory data. A theory is only a fact until conflicting data appears.
Evolution holds to that paradigm, ID does not!
This is just arguing about what the word "theory" means. Semantics. Nothing more. But you're still incorrect because...
From merriam webster dictionary
theory: 1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2: abstract thought : speculation
Those are the first two definitions straight out the dictionary. You can get into all these "if/then" statements and hoopla about this, that, and the other. But for the simplicity of the argument, ID meets the very definition of the word "theory". | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 2:19:32 PM | scorpio
I managed to avoid studying evolution in school, and in university. At my faith school, we were encouraged to think, especially about the faith that was taught.
That's WHY I question evolution. Not that it isn't possible. Just that I was raised to think... ...like a religious enthusiast who accepts absurd and unsubstantitated religious claims at face value and is skeptical of things that you find unsavory, even if they are supported overwhelmingly by evidence.
This attempt to try to convince us that your skepticism is based on critical thinking instead of religious indoctrination fails for a couple reasons.
One is that you're not coming up with an alternative to evolution. Evolution elegantly explains what we observe in biology, paleontology, biogeography, etc. To question it
without having a better explanation is foolish. If you want to get rid of the ToE, simply come up with a better explanation for the things that it explains.
Two is that critical thinking doesn't mean mindlessly questioning something repeatedly forever as you do with evolution - questioning is a part of critical thinking, not the totality of it. I could question the existence of earth and question every piece of evidence in support of it but that wouldn't make me a critical thinker. Critical thinking also involves examination and evaluation; it involves having an open mind and objectively following the evidence to a logical conclusion. Anyone who stops at the 'question stage' is not a critical thinker.
coveredinpaint
ID is a theory mainly because of the concept of Irreducible Complexity. It makes sense, in "theory", because it states that complex things must have been created by something even more complex And yet when we observe nature, the opposite is what happens. Even creationists admit that the fossil record shows that complexity is increasing as time goes on - starting from simple bacteria in lower layers leading up to complex creatures in shallow layers. IC and ID are not scientific theories, they are conjecture.
A perfectly reasonable theory is that something designed these, and that they didn't just come about out of random chance. Nobody is saying that they evolved randomly. Except creationists for some reason.
As I mentioned in another thread recently, those who think evolution is random do not understand Biology, Biochemistry or Genetics. The position of cells is not random, it is coded by the genes and controlled by chemical concentrations in the cells. In biochemistry, things attract, repel, combine, break apart, and interact in all kinds of non-random ways. And even creationists admit that natural selection is not random - for example, do infertile creatures have just as high a chance to sire offspring as fertile ones? | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 2:32:44 PM | @ thrums...
The examples you quote are genetic engineering not artificial selection.
Regarding the dog breeds I mentioned, they're the result of *selective breeding*. You choose the animals with traits you want, and allow them to have offspring. That is the ESSENCE of artificial selection. Genetic engineering is, from what I've come to understand, the direct manipulation of the genome in order to produce the traits you desire. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 2:52:55 PM |
dukky, tell me, what I want isn't available, is it?
No it isn't. In nature, a theory can only be falsified (proved false), it can never be proved true.
If you want proof, stick to math & logic. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 3:36:10 PM | | Do you mean in science everything is a hypothesis until it meets strict standards of observational evidence and then it becomes eithe r a theory or a law? Because a scientific theory is different from an plain everyday theory. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 3:41:00 PM |
don't know how many times it has to be said, but evolution [changing species] has not been proven.
doesn't matter how many volumes have been written.
Thats a great point, so are primates, humans and gorillas the same species? We all have the same skeletal structure and organs. The only difference is the size of our brains. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 3:44:18 PM | | we can't interbreed with any of the greater apes due to the fact that they have 48 chromosones and we have 46. So no, we aren't the same species. Attempts at breeding both species together in a laboratory go back into the early 90's and have constantly failed. | |
|
| Evolution.
Posted: 7/20/2009 3:45:30 PM |
Sorry to burst your bubble but I was not born in Texas and was only in Texas for about 7 years, ..Most would probably consider me a Californian. Yet where I hang or hung my hat has nothing to do with the matter.
That is why I say it is better to attack the Post rather than the Poster...You get a lot more mileage.
Both Creationsism and Evolution are considered THEORIES
As pointed out by some on here and other places there are some very good THEORIES behind what some call Creationism and some call Intelligent Design. There are also some very good THEORIES behind what some call Evolution.
That is why I am for the teaching of both THEORIES.
Since there is a wide variation in the meaning of Theory I decided not to include a defination of theory in my post. It looks like the word Theory would make a good debate in itself.
I think there is more evidence and studies done on Evolution than there is on Creationism.
Isn't Creationism just trying to win by "DEFAULT" and is not really that interesting.
Its far more interesting actually studying Evolution and trying to prove, analyze, and observe evolution in progress. | |
|
|
| Page 2 of 50
|
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41 |
|
Home
login 
