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| Evolution. Posted: 7/20/2009 10:35:36 PM |
That's a dangerous statement to make because it leaves people with the erroneous idea that "proved" theories become scientific laws and that isn't really correct.
Science is observation. There is a thing called the scientific method.
1. Intuition 2. State a hypothesis 3. Test the hypothesis 4. The hypothesis becomes a Theory if it is affirmed in observation 5. Theory becames fact or law if, through observation, it is implied by the theory, that the phenomena will occur every time it is observed.
The important thing to understand here is that step three cannot be skipped if we are talking about science. Galileo didn't go from 2. to 5. wen he determined the acceleration due to gravity. It's impossible to skip any of these steps, and it would be illogical to do so.
Notice the word "implied". | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/20/2009 10:46:52 PM | | Many MANY people in here have stated that a scientific theory does not become a scientific law if it continues to be proven through evidence. A scientific law is an observation. A scientific theory is how that observation occurs and it's causes. A scientific theory can not became a law. I don't know where you heard it could but whoever told you that was wrong. | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/21/2009 12:00:57 AM | FROGO
is that a shrimp turning into a shrimp?
did it adapt for some reason?
could that have been designed in it?
sorry if I am on the wrong track.
anyways, where does a person start!
there is a bit of stuff in the universe. and on earth, is there only 1% of stuff left that was already here at one time in the past? seems to me we are devolving, seriously!
if you guys can sit there in front of your little computor screens, and nod your heads up and down in unison, agreeing that that it all happened basically by itself, when there are more combinations for the ingredients of life to go through for the creation of a simple form of life then there are electrons in the universe, well, I don't know what to say next! | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/21/2009 12:46:26 AM |
Many MANY people in here have stated that a scientific theory does not become a scientific law if it continues to be proven through evidence. A scientific law is an observation. A scientific theory is how that observation occurs and it's causes. A scientific theory can not became a law. I don't know where you heard it could but whoever told you that was wrong. I don't like it but you're right. The big boys over at national academy of sciences says a theory doesn't become a law. And they also state "the fact of evolution" is an accurate logical term. They also say something about a theory explaining why and a law only describing a specific occurrence with constraints blah blah blah.
Galileo didn't go from 2. to 5. wen he determined the acceleration due to gravity. It's impossible to skip any of these steps, and it would be illogical to do so. As illogical as it seems its what the big boys at NAS say. The big boys are always right. Its a good thing though. Now I can go outside pick a random event formulate a mathematical theorem and market it as a law. Its a blessing in disguise :D
if you guys can sit there in front of your little computor screens, and nod your heads up and down in unison, agreeing that that it all happened basically by itself, when there are more combinations for the ingredients of life to go through for the creation of a simple form of life then there are electrons in the universe, well, I don't know what to say next! Sad to say but yes they can, and why? Because nanotechnology, biology, evolution, abiogenesis and neuroscience are all hinting at something far different from anything any religious text or creationist can conceive. As it stands now it is becoming increasingly likely that "all this" happened by itself. A creationist only hope is taking up alternative views like CTMU (cognitive theoretic model of the universe) by Christopher Langan and even then much of what is believed from religious texts has to be abandoned to make way for such theories.
Lastly has there been any documented evidence where an animal has evolved outside of its family (like a lion becoming a bear for instance)? I understand adaptations and mutation within a family of species but would like to know if the evidence exists for species evolving into other species.
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/21/2009 8:44:11 AM | Reading People's History of the United States, I'm more concerned about how we're not being taught history in our classrooms. Not that we all need to feel terrible about being an American, but simply because the truth should matter.
if you guys can sit there in front of your little computor screens, and nod your heads up and down in unison, agreeing that that it all happened basically by itself, when there are more combinations for the ingredients of life to go through for the creation of a simple form of life then there are electrons in the universe, well, I don't know what to say next! Something Richard Feynman once said: "You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!"
Lawrence Krauss also talks about this in Physics of Star Trek, about how the "impossible" happens continuously in our daily lives. If you think about the odds of you sitting there reading this right now wearing exactly what you're wearing now with every strand of your hair exactly where it is and the blades of grass outside bending or twisting the way they are creating distinct shadows not to mention the chair you're sitting on and the materials it's made of and where and when those raw materials were first extracted or created and by who and you would end up owning this chair and the dust in the air hanging exactly where it is at this moment... every second of your life, if you choose to sit their and itemize every detail and their probability, what are the odds that it would be this way? Who could have predicted? | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/21/2009 9:03:17 AM |
I sincerely hope you're just kidding! Is it really that bad in the US? Yes it is. When the other gentlemen here say that they had "heard" of evolution, they mean only that they heardabout it, or saw a poster. (assuming that they are my age or older and live in the US).
No, it's not. Riki seems to be under the misimpression that his experience is the same as everyone elses
Evolution is not introduced as science until College here.
Evolution is introduced in the 5th grade.
Some scools may be different, but not in Michigan.
They are different in Michigan. Riki seems unaware that public schools in the US are under local control, and don't have a state-determined curriculum.
If you ask people around here whether or not they "believe" (silly, isn't it?) in evolution, an overwhelming majority of people that have never attended college will say "no".
Actually, the #'s are the same for people who attended college.
Here in the states, Politicians have learned that the best way to keep evolution from being viewed as the theory
Not true. In NY, the politicians defend the teaching of evolution.
Our scool boards then vote that they will not allow evo. in the classroom without intelligent design as well.
This statement shows just how off base Riki is. In the US, it's the school boards which initiate the teaching of creationism. School boards are elected in elections that are typically ignored by most people, making it easy for a small group of people to get someone elected to the board. Creationist mount stealth campaigns to get creationists elected to the school boards (without publicizing the fact that they're creationists) and once elected, change the curriculum to include creationism.
And please not how Riki just contradicted everything he's been saying up til now. Until now, Riki has been arguing that schools do not teach evolution at all. But in that last quote, Riki admits that evolution *IS* being taught, but the creationists want to add the teaching of creationism to the curriculum
The truth is that no one is calling to eliminate the teaching of evolution. Not even the creationists. They are just demanding that creationism be taught alongside evolution.
I find it odd that someone would make up facts in order to argue that we should teach the facts about evolution. That sounds like something the creationists would do | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/21/2009 9:14:01 AM | I know what you mean, but we are talking about all of the "coincidences" to make that one thing, life.
could only happen one way.
eg. correct earth size. correct sun size. correct atmosphere. correct moon. correct spin correct electromagnetic force. correct rate of expansion of the universe, believe it or not [If the universe expanded slower, I don't think it would, faster, and it would be over] correct a billion other things, without one of which there would no life. you know, life! | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/21/2009 10:00:22 AM |
Evolution.
Why do you suppose that the volumes of facts and data in support of evolution have been repressed in public schools. I know that religious leaders are opposed, but they aren't enough to persuade the boards to not teach the theory.
Not sure what school system you went to OP, but I was taught everything there was to know about evolution (as was currently understood at the time) in mine.
What was the question again ? | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/24/2009 10:11:42 AM | starting to see how you guys are thinking.
its like somehow, of course, everything was there, now, try and stop life from forming! what? IT WAS THERE! you know, there. | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/24/2009 7:22:22 PM |
could only happen one way.
eg. correct earth size. correct sun size. correct atmosphere. correct moon. correct spin correct electromagnetic force. correct rate of expansion of the universe, believe it or not [If the universe expanded slower, I don't think it would, faster, and it would be over] correct a billion other things, without one of which there would no life. you know, life! Tell that to all the people on all the countless lifeless worlds in the universe.
The only reason you can contemplate the question in the first place is because you happen to be on one of the apparently rare worlds hospitable to life. People elsewhere never question it ;) It's a question which is essentially egotistic.
its like somehow, of course, everything was there, now, try and stop life from forming!
That's essentially so.
what? IT WAS THERE! you know, there That's not.
The chemical building blocks of life form quite readily, all on their own, even in space. They react all on their own to form new compounds, which repeat the situation. Where there is energy available, as from sunlight, other radiation, heat, exothermic chemical reactions, etc, additional reactions take place.
Given energy [stars and geothermy] and a solution to facilitate it [mainly liquid water], complex chemistry is inevitable. Life is just self-sustaining complex chemistry. If you consider the amount of energy, raw materials, and water available, and the time periods, it's hard not to see life as more or less inevitable. | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/24/2009 9:03:15 PM | The materials and mechanisms exist, period. We don't have hundreds of millions of years and a lifeless watery planet to play with. Why don't you show us ONE divine creator? Just one? Any one? no?
Objective evidence for actual materials and mechanisms: 1 Objective evidence for deities: 0 | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/24/2009 9:52:48 PM | http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=814372 hmm.. Apparently RNA (similar to DNA) Can form spontaneously in labs?!? You don't say!
A fundamental but elusive step in the early evolution of life on Earth has been replicated in a laboratory.
Researchers synthesized the basic ingredients of RNA, a molecule from which the simplest self-replicating structures are made. Until now, they couldn’t explain how these ingredients might have formed.
“It’s like molecular choreography, where the molecules choreograph their own behavior,” said organic chemist John Sutherland of the University of Manchester, co-author of a study in Nature Wednesday.
RNA is now found in living cells, where it carries information between genes and protein-manufacturing cellular components. Scientists think RNA existed early in Earth’s history, providing a necessary intermediate platform between pre-biotic chemicals and DNA, its double-stranded, more-stable descendant.
However, though researchers have been able to show how RNA’s component molecules, called ribonucleotides, could assemble into RNA, their many attempts to synthesize these ribonucleotides have failed. No matter how they combined the ingredients — a sugar, a phosphate, and one of four different nitrogenous molecules, or nucleobases — ribonucleotides just wouldn’t form.
Sutherland’s team took a different approach in what Harvard molecular biologist Jack Szostak called a “synthetic tour de force” in an accompanying commentary in Nature.
“By changing the way we mix the ingredients together, we managed to make ribonucleotides,” said Sutherland. “The chemistry works very effectively from simple precursors, and the conditions required are not distinct from what one might imagine took place on the early Earth.”
Like other would-be nucleotide synthesizers, Sutherland’s team included phosphate in their mix, but rather than adding it to sugars and nucleobases, they started with an array of even simpler molecules that were probably also in Earth’s primordial ooze.
They mixed the molecules in water, heated the solution, then allowed it to evaporate, leaving behind a residue of hybrid, half-sugar, half-nucleobase molecules. To this residue they again added water, heated it, allowed it evaporate, and then irradiated it.
At each stage of the cycle, the resulting molecules were more complex. At the final stage, Sutherland’s team added phosphate. “Remarkably, it transformed into the ribonucleotide!” said Sutherland.
According to Sutherland, these laboratory conditions resembled those of the life-originating “warm little pond” hypothesized by Charles Darwin if the pond “evaporated, got heated, and then it rained and the sun shone.”
Such conditions are plausible, and Szostak imagined the ongoing cycle of evaporation, heating and condensation providing “a kind of organic snow which could accumulate as a reservoir of material ready for the next step in RNA synthesis.”
Intriguingly, the precursor molecules used by Sutherland’s team have been identified in interstellar dust clouds and on meteorites.
“Ribonucleotides are simply an expression of the fundamental principles of organic chemistry,” said Sutherland. “They’re doing it unwittingly. The instructions for them to do it are inherent in the structure of the precursor materials. And if they can self-assemble so easily, perhaps they shouldn’t be viewed as complicated.” | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/24/2009 9:58:38 PM | First claim false.
Second claim more or less true.
However, refutation of a workable theory requires either a disproof [which is lacking], or a superior alternative [which is lacking]. The only alternative offered is divine creation, for which there is zero evidence, and flawed logic. Since divine creation is the only alternative thus far, falsifying that alternative is relevant. Chemistry works. Life is chemistry. The building blocks of life exist without requiring life beforehand. Ergo, the materials and mechanisms exist. Bury your head in the sand all you want. | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/25/2009 12:10:16 PM | To the OP. It's not as bad as you think. Teachers in Canadian, Catholic Secondary Schools have been teaching evolution and it's theories since at least 2000. To with hold the information from students is a product of the community, region, and cultural designation.
We'll all come around eventually (and most likely still end up looking at God for answers). | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/25/2009 2:35:46 PM | You can't use Robert Shapiro as a source. He is a creationist and he is not fit to do peer reviewed studies. The reason being is that creationists have absolutely NO proof for their claim, but they instill the highest level of skepticism if the study could prove evolution. What this means, is that they have the burden of proof SO HIGH for evolution that no matter what, it could NEVER be proven to them.. yet their burden of proof for creationism is near non-existent to the point that they are considered a VERY biased source. An example of this would be similar to saying "Creationism is real and not evolution"
"No, evolution and abiogenesis explains why life is here"
"Well, where is your proof for your claim? I need ALL the transitional fossils that have ever appeared, I need you to recreate abiogenesis in the lab and I need to see a elephant give birth to a monkey!"
"Well, where is your evidence?"
"I don't need any... I have faith"
Great logic there eh? In order to be trustworthy, the burden of proof must be equal for BOTH SIDES. | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/26/2009 9:03:07 AM | Actually they have made RNA in the lab from non organic material. RNA contains the exact same components as DNA does only it's single stranded. More than likely RNA then evolved from it's single strandedness .
Edit: Damn I was beaten to it | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/26/2009 9:21:01 AM | | They didn't make RNA in the lab from non-organic material. They didn't even make RNA from non-complex organic material. They DID recreate self-replicating RNA with pre-existing enzymes that contained many nucleotides. This is very important and proof that they are seemingly on the right track, but still not quite to the point of making a roadmap from the 'primordial ooze' to 'life'. | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/26/2009 9:34:57 AM | Bottom line is that both creationism and evolution are currently considered theories. Why not just teach both and satisfy both sectors.  | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/26/2009 9:46:36 AM | Why stop at the Jewish creation myth when there are so many others to teach our children.
http://www.magictails.com/creationlinks.html | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/26/2009 9:49:30 AM | Because creationism is NOT science and not a scientific theory. It should be presented in science courses as a prime example of false claims and what science is not, but not as a legitimate alternative.
Dwayne T Gish' "Evolution - The challenge of the fossil record" is used as such in a university course "Vertebrate Paleontology". It doesn't even take any instruction or knowledge of logical fallacies to see how laughably bad it is as "science". The general public, however, can be a lot more gullible.
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/26/2009 10:22:18 AM |
Bottom line is that both creationism and evolution are currently considered theories. Why not just teach both and satisfy both sectors.
No - bottom line is that evolution is SUPPORTED by a evidence from a wide range of fields, from biology to paleontology through to virology. Creationism is not supported by anything, and only seeks to cast doubt on everything that's been done thus far.
As I've said in other threads - if you want to teach Creation, do so in a Comparative Religions class where it belongs... it has no place passing itself off as a science.  | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/26/2009 12:35:58 PM |
Bottom line is that both creationism and evolution are currently considered theories. Why not just teach both and satisfy both sectors.
There is a major difference in a scientific theory, which evolution is, and a regular every day theory. Creationism wouldn't even make it as a scientific hypothesis. | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/26/2009 10:40:11 PM | Evolution is not repressed in public schools at all. In many private schools, yes. It is either repressed or taught in a manner that disregards the scientific foundation for it.
The big problem isn't evolution being not being taught, but things like intelligent design/creationism being taught as some form of scientific theory which it is not. But we also live in a country where more people are concerned with who wins American Idol or Survivor, so it's really no surprise. | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/27/2009 4:46:53 PM | frogo;
yes, life was inevitable, was the answer I sermised.
so, these chemicals that the stars form by fusion etc. [sounds like no big deal] end up on all planets, I presume, kind of itching to arrange them selves in the proper order to form life, and some how start reproducing, and turn into higher life.
of course atmosphere etc. all has to be there. [I GREATLY simplifyed the requirements]
thanks for your time. | |
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| Evolution. Posted: 7/27/2009 7:48:00 PM |
posted by: OMGWTF Uh huh. But where'd the first spec of goo evolve from? Abiotic processes? Okay, but where'd that goo evolve from? [/QUOTE]
OMG are you kidding me? Google Dr Stanley Miller. Do some reading on pre biotic chemistry. Early earth...4.5 billion years ago. then a cooling period. atmosphere made up of oxygen, hydrogen, methane, amonia. lots of volcanic and lightning activity. So you have a billion years of lightning firing thru an atmosphere of those gases creating amino acids in the oceans. Once you have all that mixing it up together..amino acids, oxygen, hydrogen, water..your gonna have life. And without supernatural intervention. Dr Miller did an experiment to duplicate the early pre biotic conditions of earth, and was able to produce at least 20 different amino acids. Thats how you get life from nothing. Single celled organisms form fist...a million years later more complex organisms. Your problem I think is your too impatient to wait. You want the whole deal proved in front of your eyes in a matter of hours or less. And since you cant see it your going with the only remaining explanation...goddidit! | |
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