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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/18/2009 2:55:58 PM | but there are things going on that we don't have a clue about, detectable by humans or not, but that still have an effect on us, past, present or future
That's purely an assumption, and one which by definition is entirely devoid of supporting evidence. It's not within the purview of science to evaluate concepts for which there is neither evidence of existence, nor influence.
or is there nothing going on that we can't detect, that could effect us in some way?
Unimportant. If we can't detect any influence, does it matter? Do we care?
Do you avoid smacking a mosquito because her great grand-daughter might one day fly into the eye of a would-be assassin, ruining his aim? Doubtful. You have no reasonable way of measuring or predicting that event, even though the objects and effects involved are very real. Why give MORE consideration to things which aren't even demonstrably real?
forget it, just want to know what the consensus in the scientific world was on if there was always something here, or not, eg. energy.
because if not, than we are here by magic, no?
but if something was here for ever, then it makes sense, to me, anyway.
Well, none of that actually has any bearing on evolution. The origins of the universe are another matter. We can trace back to tiny fractions of a second after "creation", but we simply lack any means to go back further other than conjecture. One is free to throw deities into the equation of course, but that really doesn't provide and meaningful answers, since one is then left with an overly complex, undefined, unexplainable entity with no predictable influences. If we work back through predictable definable mechanisms, why would we suddenly through the opposite into the mix as an "answer"?
It does make a certain sense that existence is "forever", but when it comes to origins of the universe, there are many things which are logical but still don't make much sense from our relatively limited perspectives. | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/18/2009 3:10:58 PM | | relatively limited perspectives, you hit the nail on the head! | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 5:57:28 AM | Frogo - I have always been wondering how mutations caused limbs to get here and I was thinking about it today. I wanted to ask you a question that actually makes sense more than growing arms out of a torso.
So what I was thinking about is that, were the legs connected to each other completely and were the arms originaly connected to the torso *along with the hands* So that when the mutation happens, it simply splits the arm off instead of growing a new one. Now that the new limbs are not connected in this way, they can build various bones such as the elbow or the knees.
Im not a biologist myself.. but this makes sense. | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 6:21:12 AM | Verzen:
http://homepage.mac.com/wis/Personal/lectures/limb-evolution/LimbEvolution.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090323212021.htm
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0401_040401_tetrapodfossil.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4638587/ns/technology_and_science-science/
Short answer: No, not really that way at all. Kind of the reverse of what you suggest, in fact. The underlying structures evolved first, as part of the gill structures, then were duplicated and co-opted as fins and eventually limbs.
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 6:34:47 AM | Well, that's what I meant is that since we were all some sort of fish at the start, fins broke off from the torso of the beast. But legs would of had to split down and break off as well.
An example of what I mean and a reverse condition that reverse this is what is known as "mermaid syndrome"
I just suck at explaining things lol =P | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 7:05:50 AM |
The origins of the universe are another matter. We can trace back to tiny fractions of a second after "creation", but we simply lack any means to go back further other than conjecture.
thanks for admitting that. that means all possibilities as to "creation" of the universe are on the table. this would include an intelligent deity (aka: God).
One is free to throw deities into the equation of course, but that really doesn't provide and meaningful answers
are you kidding me?!? if it was determined that an intelligent deity created the universe, wouldn't that thow us into a whole new realm of "meaning"?
since one is then left with an overly complex, undefined, unexplainable entity with no predictable influences.
oh well, if that's what ends up being the case ... then it is what it is. it would then be time to re-evaluate everything we thought we knew. does that unnerve you for some reason? | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 7:13:44 AM | | fish - saying god created everything gives us as much answers about the universe as saying a giant pink elephant farted the universe into existence. Same amount of evidence too. | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 7:31:52 AM |
saying god created everything gives us as much answers about the universe as saying a giant pink elephant farted the universe into existence.
or i suppose we could make another idiotic claim and say verzen created the universe (no proof you didn't right?). thankfully discerning minds have the capacity to understand real possibilities. apparently some others don't .
if you want to have an intelligent conversation, i would be glad to oblige. otherwise you have made the "ignore" list. congratulations | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 8:12:51 AM | Assuming that Darwin thought up the word evolution is the problem. He found out some interesting phenomena and it was used to justify many things it has nothing to do with. It's mixed up and polarizes by religious zealots whose goal is to control people and that fits into the agenda of materialists who want to control the game of the economic agenda. The schools are run by that economic agenda so the kids are taught to be little cogs in the system and taught to follow the leader.
But the point is, there is a lot of information about truth that is suppressed. The capitalistic economic system cannot support changes in technology to maintain itself so it has to be controlled by the people who are making the money.
If you want that changed, don't buy into it. Step to the side. | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 12:33:50 PM | I guess I don't understand the problem here. Where are we?
1. God took a week to create the world 6000 years ago. Evolution is a load of baloney. Most of what we 'observe' to be older than 6000 years is an illusion.
2. The creation story needs a little flexibility to interpret correctly. God did it, but he took a while longer. Evolution is marginally less baloney. It happens as 'microevolution', but the idea that evolution causes speciation is laughable. God made every single species on earth.
3. The basic 'design' was created by an 'Intelligent Designer', but the entire development of modern species occurred pretty much as evolutionary science suggests, but guided along by the "Intelligent Designer".
4. The universe and all that is in it came about as a result of the natural expression of the physical laws of energy and matter. No designer was necessary and evolution was either inevitable or asynthesis of one of many possible scenarios. An option for God still exists, with wide range of iterpretations of precisely what God is. This seems to be the closest view to the Western religious establishment.
Sorry if I missed a few options out..... feel free to edit! | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 12:39:26 PM | So, after 55 pages of argumentum ad nauseum......
Quietjohn2 just summed it up beautifully.
Well done. | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 12:50:15 PM | | Yup, John, that pretty much does it. Well done, sir. | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 1:09:19 PM | And please don't forget that EVERY ONE of those options is equally "predictable" by inclusion of a deity.
God did it - instantly.
God did it - slowly.
God did it - with a guiding hand.
God did it - by setting the rules, starting the engine, and leaving.
In other words, what explainability or predictability do deities bring to the table? None - all answers are equal, and thus no supernatural "explanations" actually explain anything. In all cases, we're back to square one, with science providing the only answers which ARE consistent and predictable, with or without deities. | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 2:29:34 PM | Aw, FrogO, give Him / Her / It a break! - and all the folks who need to believe that something greater than ourselves is watching over us. Like you say in your last sentence, science is science, with or without deities, so why even worry about it - unless, of course, it is used to manipulate reality.
I have to confess, even without a 'God', there is something wonderful, awesome and even 'spiritual' about the circumstances which brought us to where we are. And which will unoubtedly guide us into an unknown, yet inevitable future. For me, science, in demonstrating the awesome logic of existence, opens my eyes to the wonders of creation in stark contrast to the bland acceptance of existence under the banner of 'God did it'. Whoever / whatever 'did it', it's pretty darned neat! And science makes it even more so. | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 2:43:22 PM | | Yes John, it's the Transcendent again (keeps rearing its head). You can believe in it, experience it and be amazed by it, and still not believe in God ;). I think that's what some people mean when they say the word God. | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 3:49:20 PM |
I have to confess, even without a 'God', there is something wonderful, awesome and even 'spiritual' about the circumstances which brought us to where we are. And which will unoubtedly guide us into an unknown, yet inevitable future. For me, science, in demonstrating the awesome logic of existence, opens my eyes to the wonders of creation in stark contrast to the bland acceptance of existence under the banner of 'God did it'. Whoever / whatever 'did it', it's pretty darned neat! And science makes it even more so.
Beautifully, and eloquently put. | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 6:32:49 PM |
I have to confess, even without a 'God', there is something wonderful, awesome and even 'spiritual' about the circumstances which brought us to where we are. And which will unoubtedly guide us into an unknown, yet inevitable future. For me, science, in demonstrating the awesome logic of existence, opens my eyes to the wonders of creation in stark contrast to the bland acceptance of existence under the banner of 'God did it'. Whoever / whatever 'did it', it's pretty darned neat! And science makes it even more so
I agree with Diva ,very well put John , life is indeed "pretty darned neat " | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 6:34:51 PM | | Twister - Has anyone told you that your picture makes you look like a bond villain? | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 9/21/2009 7:32:19 PM |
Twister - Has anyone told you that your picture makes you look like a bond villain
hope you pass that message along to someone in Hollywood Verzen...
I could end up on letterman ..
say it started with a message from a guy named Verzen..lol | |
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| Evolution.
Posted: 10/21/2009 12:38:18 PM | Going back to the question of useful additions of genetic material. I found these statements on the Wikipedia page for Decorin. Better citations are there for Wiki-sceptics.
Decorin is a small cellular or pericellular matrix proteoglycan and is closely related in structure to biglycan protein. Decorin and biglycan are thought to be the result of a gene duplication. This protein is a component of connective tissue, binds to type I collagen fibrils, and plays a role in matrix assembly.
Infusion of decorin into experimental rodent spinal cord injuries has been shown to suppress scar formation and promote axon growth.
Decorin has been shown to have anti-tumorigenic properties in an experimental murine tumor model and is capable of suppressing the growth of various tumor cell lines. There are multiple alternatively spliced transcript variants known for the decorin gene. | |
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