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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 11:27:03 AM |
I am a Canadian and let me tell you that racial profiling is alive and well. I (am white) and was a punk for many years and guess how many times I got stopped by the cops... 1 time. My friend, who is brown has been stopped dozens upon dozens of times. Both of us tend to walk around at all hours looking conspicuous.
Must be a Canadian thing. I had long hair for years and wore black t-shirts with heavy metal band logos on them, and I got stopped, questioned, and harassed by cops all the time when I was younger. They always asked me if I had drugs on me. On one particular traffic stop, a friend of mine that was in the car with me (female) was even pulled aside and asked if she was being kidnapped.
Conversely, my best friend in high school who was black and wore button up shirts all the time got pulled over exactly once. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 11:41:15 AM |
On the other hand, though, I find it odd--an almost 60-yr-old nicely dressed black man in a fancy neighborhood is hardly the "profile" of a criminal
Not typically, but where I work there was a guy there (felon with a mental illness) that went around every day im dress slacks, button down shirt tie and a nice jacket. There was another guy there that would go jogging in a three piece suit. How someone is dressed doesn't always mean anything. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 11:42:24 AM |
It was definitely racism on the part of the police.
That is your opinion. There is nothing factual that you can rely upon to support your assertion.
Gates, and his driver, had already entered the premises from the back (and unloaded the luggage) before he tried to open the front door. All the police had to do was knock on the door, and the driver would have answered and affirmed that Gates lived there.
The driver was gone before the police got there from the accounts that I have read.
Gates had the opportunity to identify himself and he chose not to. Had Gates identified himself when asked by the Police none of this would have had to happen. Gates chose to act like an a$$hat and make a scene. The Police did nothing wrong or nothing racist. They were doing their job and a suspect refused to cooperate and in doing so made a scene.
Explain how racism played any part in this. Support it with fact and not your opinion. The Police were called to a house where there was a report of two Black men breaking into the premises. Upon arriving at the house they find a Black man in the premises. The Black man then refuses to identify himself, accuses the Police of racism and is generally loud and uncooperative. Yes, he eventually provided identification. However, that does not dismiss the disorderly behavior and thus he was arrested. Simple process that race had nothing to do with.
Had it been reported that two White men were breaking into the house and Gates was subsequently hassled you might have a basis to cry racism. But that was not the case.
Gates created the entire incident by not following the lawful directives of Police Officers responding to reports of a crime. He may be a Harvard Professor but he is not above the law.
Plus, seeing as how everyone here knows who he is, it seems odd that the racist police from his town didn't know who he was.
Everyone knows who he is? I think you are overzealous in that statement. In a town full of academics I am sure he is no more well known than many of the other Professors at Harvard. And just to be clear, there are other Black Professors at Harvard and other black men in Cambridge. You can in no way infer that everyone knows him.
Gates brought this all on himself. All he had to do was provide identification and say " Thank you, Officers, for responding so quickly". Instead, he chose to be an a$$hat knowing that he could fall back on the cry of racism and he would be able to get away with whatever he wanted.
And the police have dismissed their case, which proves that Gates did nothing wrong.
Even you can't believe this statement.
The dismissal proves that pressure was probably exerted by Harvard on the Cambridge Police Department to drop the case. It proves that the Department decided to drop the charges rather than face the multitude of law suites and charges of racism. and they did this so they would not have to deal with fellow A$$hats Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.
The amazing thing is that the Cambridge PD are the ones being seen as the bad guys in this incident when Gates felt that he was above the law and was not required to cooperate with law enforcement.
Where is your proof of racism? Did the Police utter and racially derogatory statements? Did they use the "N" word?
People need to get it through their heads that racism is not involved in everything that happens to Black people. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 11:54:26 AM | NoBush;
I was going to post the same article in rebuttal. I do have to say that perhaps the professor did overact. He had just returned from a long trip from China to find that he could not immediately enter his home. How frustrating is that?
In this case after Gates showed his identification the officer should have given his name and badge number as requested.
However, if I were Professor Gates I would apologize for my behavior if I did ,indeed, got out of hand. We all have been tired and frustrated at times and say and do things that we regret later.
The police officer was doing his job, I know that I would applaud an officer showing up to prevent a burglary at my home! However, he carried his out authority a bit too far, he should consider apologizing for his actions also.
In summation apologies on both sides are warranted. Sometimes we should take the HIGH ROAD in life when it comes to human error or misunderstanding. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 12:02:44 PM | I do have to say that perhaps the professor did overact.
Perhaps, but I see no credible evidence to support that
He had just returned from a long trip from China to find that he could not immediately enter his home. How frustrating is that?
That isn't what happened. Gates had already entered the house through the back door.
We all have been tired and frustrated at times and say and do things that we regret later.
There is no credible evidence that suggest Gates behaved improperly
The police officer was doing his job
How do you know the police officer behaved professionally? It sounds to me like this police officer lied about Gates not identifying himself in order to cover his own butt, arrested Gates though he did nothing wrong, and then had his arrest dismissed because it was based on a lie.
However, he carried his out authority a bit too far, he should consider apologizing for his actions also.
If he abused his authority, he should lose his job. I think it reflects well on you that you wish no one any harm in this, and just want to see any misunderstandings resolved. However, I can't help but be concerned about the public danger presented by a police officer who abuses his authority.
Gates could refuse to identify himself over and over, and it would never threaten anyone's safety but his own. But if a cop makes a habit of abusing his authority, then people can get hurt, and even killed. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 12:03:23 PM |
Even you can't believe this statement.
The dismissal proves that pressure was probably exerted by Harvard on the Cambridge Police Department to drop the case. It proves that the Department decided to drop the charges rather than face the multitude of law suites and charges of racism. and they did this so they would not have to deal with fellow A$$hats Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.
The amazing thing is that the Cambridge PD are the ones being seen as the bad guys in this incident when Gates felt that he was above the law and was not required to cooperate with law enforcement.
Where is your proof of racism? Did the Police utter and racially derogatory statements? Did they use the "N" word?
People need to get it through their heads that racism is not involved in everything that happens to Black people.
Very well said....Better than I put it...
Where were all of these so called witnesses (driver) the night of the incident. If the police were being so rude to the professor why didnt the driver interfer then. (Am I the only one finding that part strange)?
Does anything the professor and the lawyer say make sense. Is there any evidence that the police department has been or were picking on this professor(even these two officers?) No this sounds like a case of a guy very tired after a long trip who accidently locked himself out and got a bit pissed at the wrong people. People who happened to have been trying to help him.
People put yourself in the situation. You just t got back from a long trip, found you are locked out of your house, took you ?? long to get in. Are you a happy camper---If you say yes then you are lieing.
Berfore you can even get settled in the police come to the door interogating you for Id and etc..Now what is your state of mind?..( Knowing me as a woman I would probably just start crying! What would you do? Quite a few men and women I know would lose it, and a few women I know would do like me and just start bawling.) | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 12:05:32 PM |
In this case after Gates showed his identification the officer should have given his name and badge number as requested.
However, if I were Professor Gates I would apologize for my behavior if I did ,indeed, got out of hand. We all have been tired and frustrated at times and say and do things that we regret later.
The police officer was doing his job, I know that I would applaud an officer showing up to prevent a burglary at my home! However, he carried his out authority a bit too far, he should consider apologizing for his actions also.
In summation apologies on both sides are warranted. Sometimes we should take the HIGH ROAD in life when it comes to human error or misunderstanding.
According to the police report, the officer did provide his name and I believe badge number as well more than once. Gates kept asking for them as if he didn't hear them.
What exactly did the officer do that was wrong in this scenario? I'm all for offering apologies if you're actually in the wrong, but I'm not seeing what the offficer did that was actually wrong here. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 12:18:50 PM | Why was he arrested in the first place?
He was on his property and the right.The officer should have left a bad situation well enough alone.
Now the officer has been humiliated...likely had to apologize to Gates and has probably hurt his chances for advancement.
All because he was going to embarrassed by an "uppity Black man" (and Black,I'm sure, wasn't his choice of words).
This shows how poorly the police in even an upscale area are trained. A supervising officer should have been called to defuse this situation.Now the entire department has egg on its collective face.
I'm not surprised by most of what I have been reading on here for responses.
It's amazing how most "White" Americans who only faced one or incidents of prejudice in their whole lives can feel that they have the ability to tell others what is racism and what is not. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 12:22:49 PM | BushLover, your idea of "credible" and "evidence" and mine are not the same, then. You have the prof saying he overreacted and the police overreacted; you have the cop saying the prof overreacted (but keeping mum on whether he thinks he overreacted himself). They just disagree as to the EXTENT of the overreaction. (I assume you believe the lawyer for the prof to be more "credible" than the officer in the case.)
but I'm not seeing what the offficer did that was actually wrong here.
If he abused his authority, he should lose his job.
I'm not sure about LOSE his job because he lost his temper (as did the prof), but certainly incur some sort of penalty--dock in pay, black mark on his record, have to go to classes or something.
But if a cop makes a habit of abusing his authority, then people can get hurt, and even killed.
And then you go overboard, as is your wont. ONE incident of losng one's temper isn't a pattern of abuse of authority. (ARGH, I can just hear the semantic arguments boiling in his head now.) | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 12:38:20 PM |
I do have to say that perhaps the professor did overact.
Perhaps, but I see no credible evidence to support that
The Police report is not credible evidence enough?
Why are you so willing to believe gates and dismiss the Police report? What reason do you have to dismiss the police report other than your own assertion of racism?
There is no credible evidence that suggest Gates behaved improperly
Again, you have a Police Report as your credible evidence. You have no credible reason to dismiss that as the truth other than your own opinion.
How do you know the police officer behaved professionally? It sounds to me like this police officer lied about Gates not identifying himself in order to cover his own butt, arrested Gates though he did nothing wrong, and then had his arrest dismissed because it was based on a lie.
And how do you know the Police Officers did not behave properly? How do you know Gates obeyed the Officers lawful requests to provide information? You don't know. You are just stating your opinion.
NBL, I have considered the possibility of racism. Have you even for one moment considered that things transpired just as the Police said they did and that there is no racism involved?
If he abused his authority, he should lose his job. I think it reflects well on you that you wish no one any harm in this, and just want to see any misunderstandings resolved. However, I can't help but be concerned about the public danger presented by a police officer who abuses his authority.
The police abused their authority? Now that is funny in this instance. Where do you see any abuse of authority. They have a suspect that refused to cooperate. They have all the legal authority to ask for identification as well as arrest someone for disorderly conduct when they get belligerent and loud.
If he abused his authority, he should lose his job.
Following your logic should gates then lose his job for conducting himself as an a$$hat and tarnishing the reputation of Harvard?
Gates could refuse to identify himself over and over, and it would never threaten anyone's safety but his own.
Refusing to cooperate with a lawful request can get people hurt. Had gates continued his refusal to provide identification he could have been subject to tasing or being physically subdued. The Officers and/or bystanders could have been injured. The officers did not know who he was and as far as they knew they were looking for two black men suspected of breaking into the premises. Please, don't let fact interfere with your opinions.
But if a cop makes a habit of abusing his authority, then people can get hurt, and even killed.
You seem to be inferring that the officers involved may have a history of abusing authority. By now, if the Officers involved had anything in their records to suggest this it would be in the media. Nothing to support your contention has come to the surface.
Again I will ask you......why do you assume that this is racism just because gates is Black? Were any racial slurs used? There are no allegations to support this. Are there any reports that the Officers used any abusive language or were physically abusive in any way? No eye witnesses have come forward to claim racism. Gates and his Attorney are the only ones that have mentioned racism.
You are just assuming that the Officers involved were White. What if the Officers were Black, Hispanic, or Asian? would that change your opinion of the incident? | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 12:47:59 PM |
The fact is that Gates had already gotten into the house BEFORE he started working on the front door.
Yes... but he was messing with the door, before he used the back door... He himself said it was stuck, he went through the back, turned off the alarm and then with the driver unjammed his door. This is how I heard it.
There shouldn't have been a problem... He lives there... But the fact that someone saw him and called 911? Things happen like this a lot. The police had to go and do their job.
What happened after this... you have his word and the cops word.... Guess we will have to wait and see what really happened... if we ever will.
My impression is that someone who has just flown back from China... a long trip... was tired... and than angry he couldn't get his front door open when he got home... (He immediately called to complain) You know he wasn't a happy camper... He could have let his displeasure out on the cop... or the cop was a racist and just wanted to mess with him... who knows?
But it is easy to see that a lot of people in his state of mind might have just had a laps and let his anger take over. It's too bad... either way. If he did get verbally abusive... I know it is no excuse... But I think they should drop the charges on him...
Look, it's about 14 hours China to the west coast... you lose a day, than about 5 hours plus the 3 hour time change you lose going east... It was probably one hell of a trip... to only get home and find your door stuck... Than police showing up... while complaining about your door.
I would cut the guy some slack... perhaps the police could have been more observant... and could have handled it better...
Who knows? We weren't there. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 1:26:40 PM | I always make a judgement on how someone is dressed, groomed, etc. Then again, I am trained to. Not for survival purposes, but for assessment purposes. However, I carry it further and allow that to flow over into my personal life.
Anyone who does NOT assess how someone is dressed/acting/groomed is either lying, or the perfect victim. That doesn't mean that I disdain or uplift someone in my mind based on how they are dressed, whatnot, but I do calculate their threat, and how I treat them, based on it.
For instance, if a man in a hoodie with his hands in his pockets approached me today on the street while I was jogging, I would probably adopt a defensive stance or put my own hand in my pocket in anticipation of a possible assault on my person. (It is 100* out and there is no reason for him to be dressed/acting this way).
How someone is dressed doesn't mean anything, definitively, but it can give a clue to a larger picture. All of this "PC" junk will get you in trouble sometimes. The rest of the world can lock-step into the new century treating everyone the same because "That's how it should be", and I will quite contentedly keep treating people in a manner that keeps me safe while trying to also respect them to the best of my ability.
PS> Police where I live have recorders on them. It records the entire conversation that you have with them. That would settle it definitively, however, with such a high-profile person, I highly doubt the truth will come out definitively as to what happened, one way or the other. Donations can be made, people bought. I don't trust either party. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 1:39:03 PM | , your idea of "credible" and "evidence" and mine are not the same, then
Of course. I'm a reasonable person who agrees with the police that there was no credible evidence to charge Gates with a crime. You, on the other hand, think Gates admitted to "overreacting' when that is just some fantasy of yours.
just disagree as to the EXTENT of the overreaction.
No, you are wrong. Gates does not admit to over-reacting. Gates behaved appropriately throughout the incident, which is why he isn't being charged with anything
I'm not sure about LOSE his job because he lost his temper (as did the prof), but certainly incur some sort of penalty--dock in pay, black mark on his record, have to go to classes or something.
It has nothing to do with losing ones temper. That's no crime
What is a crime (or at least should be) was arresting Gates because the cop made a mistake. That's an abuse of authority.
And then you go overboard, as is your wont. ONE incident of losng one's temper isn't a pattern of abuse of authority
And then you go fantasizing, as is your wont. It has nothing to do with losing ones temper. It has to do with arresting people who did nothing wrong.
Losing ones temper is not a crime. Nor is it a crime to not show ones identification to a police officer. The officer had no grounds to arrest Gates. And that's why you won't say a word about the arrest, and try to distract attention from the arrest with false claims about tempers being lost.
What happened after this... you have his word and the cops word...
We know the cops word isn't credible because even his fellow officers didn't believe him. That's why they dismissed all charges against Gates
Even the other cops realized that the cop was lying about what happened. (Here's where the posters who hate cops show their hostility by portraying the police as being cowards who wont charge a criminal because they fear what Sharpton will say) | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 1:56:02 PM | NBL....you are living in a dream world where what you say is fact no matter what reality says.
Gates behaved appropriately throughout the incident, which is why he isn't being charged with anything
Gates did not behave appropriately throughout the incident. had he behaved appropriately there would not have been an incident. Gates refused to show identification to the Police upon a lawful arrest. Gates is reported to have shouted "I will see your Mama outside" to the Police Officer when asked to step outside. Gates immediately responded with accusations of racism when asked to present identification. There are three examples of inappropriate behavior.
What is a crime (or at least should be) was arresting Gates because the cop made a mistake. That's an abuse of authority.
Please inform your curious fellow forum members what mistake the Officer made.
The Officer was investigating the report of Black males breaking into a house. They found a Black male in the house and asked for identification. The Black male refused to produce identification and became disorderly and was arrested. Where was the mistake? There wasn't a mistake except on Gates part in assuming that he did not have to cooperate with the police that were there to protect his property.
We know the cops word isn't credible because even his fellow officers didn't believe him. That's why they dismissed all charges against Gates
Even the other cops realized that the cop was lying about what happened.
Again, just a wild assumption on your part. You do not know why the charges were dropped. A plea deal could have been worked out. Gates Attorney could have offered to not pursue a racism charge in exchange for the Disorderly conduct charges to be dropped. Harvard could have pressured the Cambridge PD to drop the charges. Or the Cambridge PD could have simply decided it was not worth the time, effort and money it would take to pursue these charges.
You don't know why the charges were dropped. But then again, you never let fact interfere with your opinions and forum posts.
NBL.... I know you won't respond to my post, as you often ignore those that post factually against your opinion ridden tirades. However, I would find it very interesting to see how you can support your assertions with fact. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 2:29:40 PM | The dismissal proves that pressure was probably exerted by Harvard on the Cambridge Police Department to drop the case. It proves that the Department decided to drop the charges rather than face the multitude of law suites and charges of racism. and they did this so they would not have to deal with fellow A$$hats Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.
All of that is "proved" by the dismissal?
Are you sure? Do you have any public statement from the police stating exactly that?
Couldn't it just as easily (and much more confidently) be said that they dismissed because they KNEW the officer acted inappropriately and would likely lose both the case under charge AND the ensuing lawsuit?
and they did this so they would not have to deal with fellow A$$hats Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.
This comment sounds suspiciously like a racially derogatory comment. At this point neither is a party to the (dismissed) criminal charge or the as yet unfiled lawsuit and yet you assume that avoiding them is, by some unfathomable leap in logic, a "proven" cause for dropping the charges. It is amazing how the most seemingly off-hand remarks can expose underlying motivations like flying a flag. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 2:31:40 PM | The professor was tired. He had a bad day. He had to break into his house after a long trip. The professor was pissed. The officers invaded the professors pissed off space. Hence the officers got the professors anger.
Thats the way it looks to me. The officers were trying to do their job and the professor was too tired and too pissed to see that . Rather than apologize the professor decided to compound it by label his issue a racist issue.
If the professor had been white and the cops black would the story be different?
If the professor had been black and the cops black would the story be different?
If the professor had been white and the cops white would the story be different? | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 2:58:33 PM | Not one post in this thread has shown one fact that points to this incident as racist or shown where any racism is involved.
The simple facts that Gates is Black and that it is assumed the Officers are White are the only things that lend any potential for racism.
The Officers may have been overzealous but there is no proof of racism.
Please show some facts and proof that any racist actions took place. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 3:06:06 PM | Couldn't it just as easily (and much more confidently) be said that they dismissed because they KNEW the officer acted inappropriately and would likely lose both the case under charge AND the ensuing lawsuit?
This is exactly what happened. The cops are covering for their buddy, who they know is close to getting his butt thrown off the force. And soon, the racists will insist that Gates and his supporters are the racists, because that is what they do. The racists always accuse the victims of being racists.
The Cops who abuse innocent people often accuse the victims of not cooperating or complying with the police. Similarly, the racists accuse the victims (and their supporters) of being racists. It's all about projection
The other argument you should expect is the "But you can't read his mind, so how do you know he's a racist?" ploy | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 3:18:12 PM | This comment sounds suspiciously like a racially derogatory comment.
Welcome to the Off-Topic Forum...
...........................................Can I dot the T, and cross the I...
Gates says he was dis-ed...The Po-Po dropped all charges...see ya in Court...
Rights are a beautiful thing, Let a Jury of Professor Gates' peers judge him...And the Police. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 4:47:37 PM |
Not one post in this thread has shown one fact that points to this incident as racist or shown where any racism is involved.
The 'facts' are interpreted in an endless configuration of 'I think'.
I think that Dr. Gates was in his own home when the police arrived.
I think that Dr. Gates was pissed off about being asked to identify himself in his own home.
I think that the police could have checked the I.D.
I think that the police should have noticed that Dr. Gates was on the phone when they arrived--seems like something one would do in one's own house.
I think that once things went outside and Dr. Gates expressed his displeasure, the police should have gotten into their car and left--not suddenly decided to threaten him with arrest, which only exacerbated the situation.
The simple facts that Gates is Black and that it is assumed the Officers are White are the only things that lend any potential for racism.
Did you assume that the officers were White?
If you check the story, you'll see a handsome Black police officer standing in front of Gates's home. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 5:28:25 PM | Ok here is a link to a picture of Gates.
This guy does not look calm, cool and collective.
http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/photo-taken-neighbor-Thursday-July-16-2009-Henry-Louis-Gates/photo//090721/480/0fb799e524bc46ddab7ba290713aec51//s:/ap/20090721/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_analysis_3
Hey if you cuff me for being angry I probably won't cool down. But if I'm cool, calm and cooperative, I think as a mature adult I would remain cool calm and collective.
This is not a picture of a guy who is cool calm and collective.
He did look like a guy who feels he is beyond reproach on the Campbell Brown Show.
Seems that the story keeps changing and changing. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 5:35:39 PM |
In summation apologies on both sides are warranted. Sometimes we should take the HIGH ROAD in life when it comes to human error or misunderstanding
^^^ The best post in this thread.
In my opinion, I think it is a case of prejudice and reverse prejudice (if there is such a thing). In one respect, the police should have let this entire ting blow over while they stood in the gentleman's house. In the other respect, for Gates to comment "This is what happens to black men" most likely pissed off the police.
Possibly, the police followed through with their behaviour because they sensed there was going to be an issue, regardless. If not about being black, I think Gates would have made it an issue because of his professional status...... I've dealt many years with those who think they're special and above reproach just because they have professional titles.
As one poster put it:
Some people are so book smart that they are dumb when it comes to real life
To support my thought Gates did respond with:
"You don't know who you're messing with,"
^^^ That's an act of intimidation. I'd think the Police reaction would have been, "We'll show you who you're messing with."
All seriousness aside:
"This is what happens to black men in America."
^^ When I read that I immediately chuckled and thought, "What? Black men in America get drivers who carry their luggage?"  | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/21/2009 5:36:03 PM | I really think things are derailed on this thread... how can a conversation possibly be guided by "information" or "facts" such as what we assume someone's state of mind (and BEHAVIOR) is based on a photo? Seriously, guys, c'mon.
I really think the biggest worth of this thread is using the incident as a springboard for a bit of a larger conversation. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have any kind of coherent conversation based on random assumptions. It's actually getting kind of bizarre, I think. It is as though discovered "facts" are hunted down and assumed in order to validate one's opinion. | |
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