| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 12:32:13 PM |
All over America and the world there are copious authentic bona fide racist and discriminatory actions being reported. Yet when one racist and/or discriminatory report shows unwarranted grounds for whatever reason, it hurts those people that truly need the backing. In my opinion the Gates incident is just such a case. Except, if the fallout from the Gates' case leads to less abusive use of authority through bogus charges by police for ALL people then THAT WILL help the situation move forward.
If the police were to discontinue the practice of filing bogus charges just to "show who's boss" entirely there would be less institutional racism. Police act as their own worst enemy with such practices.
If Gates' claims, correct or incorrect, lead to just that one improvement we will have taken another big step away from racism. | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 12:35:53 PM | So, if it was a white person, under the exact same circumstances, and I mean exact, who was smacked with an illegal Disorderly Conduct as things escalated, what then?
The same exact thing as is happening now. The white person who was falsely arrested could sue Crowley and the Cambridge PD.
Which is the point. The Disorderly Conduct has nothing to do with this being a race issue but of an incorrect arrest given the nature of the conduct for the arrest. The investigation of a black man admittedly breaking into a building has nothing to do with him being black and has everything to do with the break in itself. I agree totally with this being a case of crying wolf and demeaning other real cases of racial discrimination, particularly given the racial comments made by the individual who was arrested. His thoughts were more of a proveable racially discriminatory mindset against a white individual than the reverse...proveable because he admitted to having those thoughts.
Edit: I'll end here by telling you that I do see your points and that what you describe is also a reality. I just don't see it in this particular case. Thanks for the debate - catch you in another some day. TTFN | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 12:42:24 PM |
The Disorderly Conduct has nothing to do with this being a race issue but of an incorrect arrest given the nature of the conduct for the arrest.
It is certainly a race issue. The police have used charges of disorderly conduct to harass black men.
The investigation of a black man admittedly breaking into a building
Wrong, the investigation had nothing to do with a "black" man. It was an investigation into two men, one possibly Hispanic.
Crowley LIED when he said he was told the suspects were black. Crowley LIED about having a conversation about race
But race had nothing to do with it, right? | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 12:44:50 PM | mungojoe said in post 779 "Except, if the fallout from the Gates' case leads to less abusive use of authority through bogus charges by police for ALL people then THAT WILL help the situation move forward"
Good reasoning BUT
What if this case as many have leads to even more unwarranted calls of wolf. What if even more feel that the race card is a good "get out of jail/trouble card" or ??? because of what they saw Gates and the President support. This could very well happen. Especially since the President has given it more merit. Then what happens to all the work of the people like MLK.
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 1:02:26 PM | What if this case as many have leads to even more unwarranted calls of wolf. What if even more feel that the race card is a good "get out of jail/trouble card" or ??? because of what they saw Gates and the President support. This could very well happen. Especially since the President has given it more merit. Then what happens to all the work of the people like MLK. That wouldn't even be a potential issue if Crowley had simply left rather than charging Gates.
It wouldn't be splashed all over the media and internet. We wouldn't be seeing it used as a 'holy grail' by the 'we'll show those minorities and their race-card" crowd AND it wouldn't be there to "give anyone any ideas" (though I think that is a bit of a stretch, people who are inclined to use it as an 'out' for real wrong doing generally already do use it).
That it has risen to such a level is truly only due to Crowley's actions (and the crowd referenced above who saw it as the 'holy grail' of their quest). Without that it would likely have gone the same way most day-to-day situations like that do, between the involved parties and unnoticed by the majority. | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 1:08:17 PM |
because the false arrest on disorderly conduct has a history being used in a way that has a "disparate impact" on black people. As an "expert" on racial profiling, Crowley should know this
But, the reality is, given the continued existence of insititutional racism in the U.S., and PD's particularly, is that Gates had reasonable cause to suspect racism was involved.
Crowley was already guilty of racial profiling & racism before he even showed up at the door.
Trying to use this as proof or evidence of wrong doing or even suspected wrong doing is laughable.
Or does being impartial to a case mean anything anymore? | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 1:43:52 PM |
“Now it’s clear that he had a narrative in his head: A black man was inside someone’s house, probably a white person’s house, and this black man had broken and entered, and this black man was me.” http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,1
Overall I feel that evidence that I have seen Does Not support any racist actions or thoughts on the part of Crowley. When you add in the fact there are no statements anywhere, even by Gates or his attorney where Crowley said anything racist to Gates. I Do Not feel Crowley acted or thought in any racist way.
I do feel that Gates had some biased racist feelings from the moment he opened the door to Crowley, which I back up with his own interview statement. Who knows what was behind Gates' rationale for his thoughts and behavior. Whatever it was, it does not excuse his unashamed disregard and obnoxious behavior for someone who was trying to protect the residence Gates lived in. | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 3:46:37 PM |
At this point, and until Crowley can demonstrate otherwise, the bogus, B.S. arrest and the apparently 'fudged' report are as close to a "smoking gun" as you are likely to get in such a situation. And the only way to clear that up is for Crowley to admit to abusing his authority because he was too thin-skinned to walk away from "name calling".
But, the reality is, given the continued existence of insititutional racism in the U.S., and PD's particularly, is that Gates had reasonable cause to suspect racism was involved.
Crowley's action THROUGHOUT the incident speak to his motivations and are fully germaine to the question of racism, not just the ones his supporters can "hang their hats" on.
I believe Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson might have a job for you somewhere. You're clearly very adept at twisting things to their perspective. | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 5:27:08 PM | This is a letter from Sgt Leon Lashley one of the officers with Crowley and who spoke up for Crowley. Looks like he is now considered an "Uncle Tom" , betrayer and other things due to his support for Crowley.
Its about 1min 10 secs into the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP7ujiJ1Sjs | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 6:28:43 PM |
Crowley was already guilty of racial profiling & racism before he even showed up at the door.
Crowley wasn't guilty of anything. He hadn't been charged with anything that I knew of. Now Gates on the other hand was being charged with disorderly conduct before any of us even knew what the hell was happening over there in Cambridge MA!! | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 6:41:29 PM | Crowley wasn't guilty of anything. He hadn't been charged with anything that I knew of. Now Gates on the other hand was being charged with disorderly conduct before any of us even knew what the hell was happening over there in Cambridge MA!!
Gates is/was going to sue Crowley on the basis of racial profiling and/or racist.( not sure anymore) When the disorderly conduct charges were dropped, it appeared all was cool with both. Then Gates picked up the ball again and went on a media rush and the suit was on again. So is Gates going to still sue Crowley we don't know. Was Crowley racial profiling or being racist? I don't think so from what I have read and seen. To me it seems like Gates was calling wolf and escalating a non-racial incident.
Now to top this off another officer of the force that was with Crowley is now being labeled an "Uncle Tom" and considered by some a betrayer to his race. (see post 789 for video). | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 7:00:03 PM |
Now to top this off another officer of the force that was with Crowley is now being labeled an "Uncle Tom" and considered by some a betrayer to his race. (see post 789 for video). Now you begin to see just how many lives Crowley as affected because he couldn't be professional enough or smart enough to just leave after he had Gates ID.
He just HAD to file the bogus, B.S. charges over being "called names", apparently 'fudge' his report, bringing what otherwise would have been a minor incident to national notice.
Regardless of his motives, racist or not, Crowley has caused this. | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 7:01:54 PM | | well i can say this....Obama had the better choice of beer tonight, blue moon and sam adams light are horrible beers and bud light is drinkable but i prefer guiness, but they said they can agree to diagree in the "beer summit" | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 7:19:20 PM |
Now you begin to see just how many lives Crowley as affected because he couldn't be professional enough or smart enough to just leave after he had Gates ID.
You might want to view the video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP7ujiJ1Sjs Lashley said he stood behind Crowley and feels that it was Mr Gates fault. Opps... Lashley also went on to say that Professor Gates need to reflect over the damage that Gates has caused.
For those who have not seen the video Lashley is the black officer that was at the scene during the arrest. | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 7:25:15 PM | I am reluctant to post the following simply because I am not 100% certain of its validity. I am not at all familiar with this site but came across it while doing a bit of research concerning this matter. Also, I seriously doubt this is the entire interview as it seems to address only that which someone with an agenda would wish others to see. The extreme brevity of this 'interview' is what makes me question this.
I would be very interested in reading the text of the entire interview if anyone could link me to it? I'm not the computer person that many of you others are.
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=206964;article=407053;
All further comments are based only on the above information.
Yes, it was mostly an interview concerning Dr. Gates' Mother and her views many years ago but it also says a great deal about Dr. Gates and his views as a young man. In particular I bring this to the table. From the above link, " I mean, Malcolm X was talking about the white man was the devil and standing up in white people's faces and telling them off. It was great." He goes on to say that his Mother smiled and said Yes.
Those recollections were from 1959 but still quite vivid during this 1994 interview. Could Gates' and Crowley's upbringing have had some influence on what happened here? I feel that's the root of all that transpired but I also believe that the one person who escalated the situation was Dr. Gates.
That wouldn't even be a potential issue if Crowley had simply left rather than charging Gates. Another way to word that would be, "Would it even be a potential issue if Dr. Gates had presented his identification upon request to a uniformed police officer?"
The fact that he was in his own home at this time holds little weight when the police officer who arrived was responding to a 911 call about a possible B&E at said address.
I can't help but wonder what reaction Dr. Gates would have displayed had Sgt. Lashley been the first on the scene? | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 7:29:34 PM | For those that missed Crowley's press conference here it is he did an excellent job. Crowley did an excellent job. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/32228540#32228540 | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 7:47:58 PM |
Another way to word that would be, "Would it even be a potential issue if Dr. Gates had presented his identification upon request to a uniformed police officer?" Read this entire thread. Everything you've posited has been asked, answered, rebutted, and responded to.
Dr. Gates DID show his ID. At THAT point, all the police officer had to do was leave.
The fact that he was in his own home at this time holds little weight when the police officer who arrived was responding to a 911 call about a possible B&E at said address. No--the fact that Dr. Gates was in his own home and showed his ID carries ALL the weight. Yes--we are grateful for those officers who have to check out potential illegalities.
I can't help but wonder what reaction Dr. Gates would have displayed had Sgt. Lashley been the first on the scene? Wonder away. It didn't happen like that, so what is the point of 'what if'? | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 8:02:09 PM |
Now you begin to see just how many lives Crowley as affected because he couldn't be professional enough or smart enough to just leave after he had Gates ID.
If you want to go back to the root cause you need to rewrite that sentence to read:
Now you begin to see just how many lives Gates has affected because he couldn't be civil, respectful, intelligent or smart enough to conduct himself properly. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 7/30/2009 8:03:42 PM | I'm just amazed at all the people who try to say Dr. Gates is at fault for what happened that day. Even if he was being cross and shouting up a storm, that's not a crime when you're on your own property. And let's not forget that it was Sgt. Crowley who was on the clock that day. It is his DUTY to react calmly and diffuse tense situations like that. He is trained to do as such and when he fails to it is no one's responsibility but his own. So while perhaps both of them behaved badly that day, only one was being paid not to. Sgt. Crowley is therefore inescapably in the wrong.
The arrest was thrown out anyway, meaning all his supervisors thought it was the wrong things to do as well. Why are we still arguing this? | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 8:12:40 PM | geeleebee said "]Read this entire thread. Everything you've posited has been asked, answered, rebutted, and responded to. Dr. Gates DID show his ID. At THAT point, all the police officer had to do was leave."
4realRU's comment/question was one that I was just wondering about after hearing Sgt Leon Lashley's letter today. What if it had been Lashley at the door?
It does look like some on here still need to read the police reports. http://www.thebostonchannel.com/download/2009/0720/20120754.pdf
Gates showed his ID After first refusing. Once Gates showed his ID Officer Crowley radioed Campus Security and LEFT!!!! At That Point Professor Gates Should Have sat down and cooled down INSTEAD Gates followed Crowley outside escalating the issue further with his loud rants directed at Crowley and ?? Gates was warned not Once but Twice to calm down prior to being arrested. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 7/30/2009 8:21:33 PM |
Why are we still arguing this?
Because just about everything you wrote is incorrect.
I'm just amazed at all the people who try to say Dr. Gates is at fault for what happened that day
I am more than amazed at the number of people that feel Gates has absolutely no culpability in the events that transpired.
Hates Gates not chosen to be an asshat the entire affair would not have happened. But no, the esteemed Professor Gates had to start falsely accusing the Police of racism when they were investigating a reported break in at his residence!
FFS, does Gates behavior make sense on any level????? All of us, long ago, learned that it was right and proper and in our best interest to cooperate with the Police in the event we had an interaction with them. Apparently gates felt that this did not apply to them
Here is how the events should have transpired:
Crowley: Cambridge PD, We are investigating a report of a break in.
Gates: I live here
Crowley: May I see some identification please.
Gates: No problem, here you go.
Crowley: Thank you, have you seen any signs of a break in? We received a report of two men trying to forcibly enter the premises.
Gates: That was probably my Driver and Me.
Crowley: Ok, if you are sure there was no break in, we are done here.
Gates: Thank you for your quick response.
Deal done and we would not be in this thread...........
Gates had to prove a point and accuse Crowley of racism.......... Why could he not just be cooperative? What was he hiding? What was he trying to prove? | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 8:22:11 PM |
I am reluctant to post the following simply because I am not 100% certain of its validity. I am not at all familiar with this site but came across it while doing a bit of research concerning this matter. Also, I seriously doubt this is the entire interview as it seems to address only that which someone with an agenda would wish others to see. The extreme brevity of this 'interview' is what makes me question this.
Its seems to be accurate, found the actual interview on c-span.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AR9MycHnGg
I'm just amazed at all the people who try to say Dr. Gates is at fault for what happened that day. Even if he was being cross and shouting up a storm, that's not a crime when you're on your own property. And let's not forget that it was Sgt. Crowley who was on the clock that day. It is his DUTY to react calmly and diffuse tense situations like that. He is trained to do as such and when he fails to it is no one's responsibility but his own. So while perhaps both of them behaved badly that day, only one was being paid not to. Sgt. Crowley is therefore inescapably in the wrong.
Its funny people try to blame Crowley for Gates bad behavior by saying he should defuse the situation. Gates is a fully grown man responsible for his own actions.
People need to start being more responsible for their own actions.
He is trained to do as such and when he fails to it is no one's responsibility but his own
Again, how about Gates be responsible for himself and not someone else.
I suggest anger management classes to start?
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 8:55:57 PM |
Again, how about Gates be responsible for himself and not someone else.
Sure, he should. But when two people, one a just civilian and the other a paid servant of the people, get in an altercation, who is ultimately responsible? It's always going the guy getting paid. Just as people say Obama should not have made a personal comment on the event because he is a public official and his words have stronger impact than those of a private citizen, the actions of a police officer hold more weight than those of an average joe. Even if things went down *exactly* as Sgt. Crowley wrote in his report, he still failed to de-escalate the situation and instead made an improper arrest that was ultimately thrown out. And that is no one's fault but his own.
Doesn't anyone realize that dropping the charges against Gates is essentially the Cambridge PD admitting that he should never have been arrested in the first place? | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/30/2009 9:13:30 PM |
Sure, he should. But when two people, one a just civilian and the other a paid servant of the people, get in an altercation, who is ultimately responsible? It's always going the guy getting paid. Just as people say Obama should not have made a personal comment on the event because he is a public official and his words have stronger impact than those of a private citizen, the actions of a police officer hold more weight than those of an average joe. Even if things went down *exactly* as Sgt. Crowley wrote in his report, he still failed to de-escalate the situation and instead made an improper arrest that was ultimately thrown out. And that is no one's fault but his own.
Policemen are not trained councilors or Psychiatrists. They can only do so much to try to deescalate a situation. Since gates was yelling so loud most of what Crowley said probably was not heard. And it doesn't always work if they don't want to listen.
Gates has to be held accountable for his own actions if all else fails.
Actually several officers were trying to calm him down to no avail.
My BS detector has been honed after years of smelling it and this is one situation where its going off right now. | |
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