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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/30/2009 9:18:29 PM |
Read this entire thread. I have followed this thread since its inception. I do apologize if I missed any pertinent links but I do not recall seeing the one that I posted, although I could be very mistaken.
Dr. Gates DID show his ID. Correct, but would not you, or any other 'prudent' citizen, immediately show it to the police officer under similar circumstances when asked to do so?
Yes--we are grateful for those officers who have to check out potential illegalities. Does being grateful extend to those that impede others who are checking out potential illegalities?
Maybe it goes back to how I was raised but it seems to me that cooperating with the police, particularly when one is certain of their innocence, is preferable to confronting them.
I am certain, as I feel all posters here are, that if Officer Crowley had known and recognized Dr. Gates this thread would not even exist.
Thank you Cool Dude for providing that info, it was greatly appreciated. I will now exit this thread thinking that few, if any, opinions have changed here.
I will say that I have seen what I would have called radical views 'softened' a good bit. Maybe there's a chance for us all after all. | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/30/2009 9:20:26 PM | Regarding this:
he still failed to de-escalate the situation and instead made an improper arrest that was ultimately thrown out. And that is no one's fault but his own.
Officer Crowley repeatedly told Mr. Gates to calm down. Officer Crowley gave Mr. Gates at least two warnings before placing him under arrest, that if he didn't calm down, he would be placed under arrest. Therefore, Officer Crowley did try to de-escalate the situation. In fact, he told Gates what the consequences would be, if he (Gates) didn't comply. Crowley gave Gates a choice...Gates chose...and was arrested. Therefore, Gates' arrest, is no one's fault but his own.
Doesn't anyone realize that dropping the charges against Gates is essentially the Cambridge PD admitting that he should never have been arrested in the first place?
Yeah, you might want to read the thread...I know it's pretty long...but somewhere between page 10 and 30, I'm sure you would find the answer to your question (that the Cambridge PD didn't drop the charges).
~ds~ | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/30/2009 9:24:58 PM | Melophone said "Doesn't anyone realize that dropping the charges against Gates is essentially the Cambridge PD admitting that he should never have been arrested in the first place?"
It was not the Cambridge Police dept that dropped the charges, it was the DAs office.
According to most reports the charges were dropped after Gates and the Police Dept/Crowley(?) came to an mutual agreement. A mutual agreement that appeared to mean nothing to Gates.
Just after the charges were dropped Gates and his Lawyer said that they were suing for racism/racial profiling. It was also after this time that Gates and his Lawyer went on media spree, giving numerous interviews on TV and etc.
From Professor Gates own statement it can be seen how Gates felt he was being discriminated against. (remember this is the publication Gates is editor in chief of).
"Now it’s clear that he had a narrative in his head: A black man was inside someone’s house, probably a white person’s house, and this black man had broken and entered, and this black man was me.”
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,1
I say again that I feel that Crowley was NOT acting in a racist manner towards Gates. Neither do I feel that any of Crowley actions were based on race.
On the other hand, Gates was being uncooperative and confrontational towards police who were trying to protect his life and property. From Gates own interview statement and other reports I've read I feel that it is evident that Gates was acting in a prejudices manner towards Gates.
4realRU, you brought up some legitimate concerns in your post, especially considering the recent letter from Lashley.
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/30/2009 9:42:47 PM | Now you begin to see just how many lives Crowley as affected because he couldn't be professional enough or smart enough to just leave after he had Gates ID. If you want to go back to the root cause you need to rewrite that sentence to read: Now you begin to see just how many lives Gates has affected because he couldn't be civil, respectful, intelligent or smart enough to conduct himself properly.
Ummm... no
And
Here is how the events should have transpired:
Crowley: Cambridge PD, We are investigating a report of a break in.
Gates: I live here
Crowley: May I see some identification please.
Gates: No problem, here you go.
Crowley: Thank you, have you seen any signs of a break in? We received a report of two men trying to forcibly enter the premises.
Gates: That was probably my Driver and Me.
Crowley: Ok, if you are sure there was no break in, we are done here.
Gates: Thank you for your quick response.
Deal done and we would not be in this thread...........
Ummm... no
Gates was exercising his constitutional right to free speech in a manner that is protected by Mass. law.
Legal precedent in Mass. clearly shows that the kind of behaviour Gates' engaged in has been repeatedly determined to be protected speech and not "disorderly" or illegal.
It is the height of disingenuousness to try and dictate that Gates' MUST relinquish his rights because you disagree with what he said or how he said it.
The only person who was acting outside of established law that day was Crowley when he drew Gates outside and wrongfully arrested him in contravention of his Constitutional rights and the laws of Mass.
This unwavering support for the abuse of police power and the quoted statements clearly show a total lack of regard for the legal rights of others and a complete disdain for the Constitution. Crowley's abuse of authority is more suited to a police state than a democratic nation, but from many of the comments on that thread you would think that some Americans actually want that.
Officer Crowley repeatedly told Mr. Gates to calm down. Officer Crowley gave Mr. Gates at least two warnings before placing him under arrest, that if he didn't calm down, he would be placed under arrest. Therefore, Officer Crowley did try to de-escalate the situation. In fact, he told Gates what the consequences would be, if he (Gates) didn't comply. Crowley gave Gates a choice...Gates chose...and was arrested. Therefore, Gates' arrest, is no one's fault but his own.
How do you figure that threatening to arrest someone who has done nothing illegal amounts to de-escalation? If anything, he only made matters worse.
Yeah, you might want to read the thread...I know it's pretty long...but somewhere between page 10 and 30, I'm sure you would find the answer to your question (that the Cambridge PD didn't drop the charges).
Good idea, especially since the charges were dropped at the SPECIFIC REQUEST of the Cambridge PD and the City of Cambridge. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/30/2009 9:48:19 PM | | sooo mung what it boils down to is you prefer utter chaos and hollywod street wars instead of law and order to a degree where the citizens are free to roam and not worry about police action. i want you to walk up to a RCMP and spit on his boots and call him a racist and see what happens, after all you support this behaviour | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/30/2009 10:00:00 PM | I haven't read the reports. I haven't heard the tapes. Other than Gates I don't even know the names of the others involved in this non story. If this guy isn't a Harvard prof we don't even hear this story.
What I do know is regardless of who is right and who is wrong every story like this sets back race relations. The more traction it gets the worse the setback. By the time we do have the full story the outcome will not mater because the damage will have been done.
The only one's who will profit from this story are....... the media | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/30/2009 10:02:35 PM |
sooo mung what it boils down to is you prefer utter chaos and hollywod street wars instead of law and order to a degree where the citizens are free to roam and not worry about police action. i want you to walk up to a RCMP and spit on his boots and call him a racist and see what happens, after all you support this behaviour
Nah he would only spit at an officer if his life was in danger from a criminal and the officers were trying to save his life.
Hey I will be the first to admit, Racism is not dead, It is alive and kicking. But if there was any Racism that night it was Gates who was using it.
I will be the first to admit that there are some bad cops and some prejudiced police. But Crowley was neither one that night, nor has Crowley ever showed any indication of being a bad prejudiced officer.
Guys get it straight --- Gates unjustifiably tried to use the race card against a honest upright Cambridge officer: Sgt Crowley. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/30/2009 10:10:04 PM | Nah he would only spit at an officer if his life was in danger from a criminal and the officers were trying to save his life.
First--that is a personal attack.
Debate the issues, don't debase those posting.
Hey I will be the first to admit, Racism is not dead, It is alive and kicking. But if there was any Racism that night it was Gates who was using it.
You were not there.
You do not know what happened.
You can only surmise along with the rest of us.
I will be the first to admit that there are some bad cops and some prejudiced police. But Crowley was neither one that night, nor has Crowley ever showed any indication of being a bad prejudiced officer.
And you know this--how?
Or, is this another example of surmising?
Guys get it straight --- Gates unjustifiably tried to use the race card against a honest upright Cambridge officer: Sgt Crowley.
Sgt. Crowley may well be the best of the best. In this situation, he didn't choose to exhibit that.
After being shown the ID, Sgt. Crowley should have gotten into his car and left.
Going 'round and 'round about this is futile.
By the way, Dr. Gates is an honest upright citizen of Cambridge, who had no arrest record. ('he shoulda given the officer his ID'--he did--'he shoulda kept his mouth shut'--it isn't against the law for him not to--'yeah, but...'--pffft) | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/30/2009 10:20:30 PM |
How do you figure that threatening to arrest someone who has done nothing illegal amounts to de-escalation? If anything, he only made matters worse.
I would not say threatening him, but giving him a warning. From my understanding, officers were attempting to calm him down inside the house prior to going outside.
Then when they went outside thats when he started to giving him verbal warnings.
I don't agree with using warnings as a primary method to deescalate a situation. But in this case, I believed they tried inside the house. Then if it does not work, then obviously they have to use more strict measures.
In some cases, arrest is used to calm a situation. In domestic violence cases between husband and wife. Some new laws require one has to be arrested ( Or similar course of action ) to get them separated till they cool off. If not, when they leave it could get worse & possibly killed.
Another might be where in a large group situation where one or a few people are troublemakers and might start a riot. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/30/2009 10:42:30 PM |
Sgt. Crowley may well be the best of the best. In this situation, he didn't choose to exhibit that.
After being shown the ID, Sgt. Crowley should have gotten into his car and left.
Going 'round and 'round about this is futile.
Yes it is so furtile when Some people keep printing it all wrong over and over.
Some people NEED TO READ THE POLICE REPORT and Gates' interview in "The Root" (the online magazine co founded by Gates)
Gates refused the first time to show his ID..(in report of Crowley and Figueroa)
When Gates did show his ID Crowley radioed campus security and LEFT (in Crowley's report)
Gates FOLLOWED of his Own Free Will ranting and screaming at Crowley and anyone else that was outside. ( and both police reports, Gates talks about this in "The Root")
Gates continued shouting even after two warning(Crowleys and Figueroa's Rpt)
Again I say that from all indcations I DO NOT Feel Crowley acted or spoke in any racist manner. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/30/2009 10:53:20 PM |
Gates FOLLOWED of his Own Free Will ranting and screaming at Crowley and anyone else that was outside. ( and both police reports, Gates talks about this in "The Root")
Gates continued shouting even after two warning(Crowleys and Figueroa's Rpt)
Again I say that from all indcations I DO NOT Feel Crowley acted or spoke in any racist manner.
Two separate issues:
Read the many, many posts that cite the law in Massachusetts--it was not/is not illegal for Gates to yell at the officer.
I haven't stated anywhere in this thread that I thought Crowley's actions were racist. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/30/2009 11:01:13 PM | My word I leave to watch some TV come back to find people are still writing it all down wrong.
All one has to do is read the police reports.
The interview Gates did for his online paper appears to even back up some of the erroneous statements being made in the various posts.
About the only thing Gates doesn't admit to in his interview is raising his voice. It's not just the police officers that heard him yelling, various neighbors standing around heard Gates yelling inside the house and outside of the house.
It can even been read in Gates interview that he had prejudiced thoughts about what the officer wanted, yet not voiced by the officer (guess Gates was a mind reader). Gates even says in his interview he felt he was in trouble. (Why).
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,1 | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/30/2009 11:14:07 PM | It's not just the police officers that heard him yelling, various neighbors standing around heard Gates yelling inside the house and outside of the house.
And that's illegal in Mass, given that the courts have ruled such actions aren't "disorderly", in what way, exactly?
We get that you FEEL that people should loose all their rights (or at least the ones you don't agree with that time) whenever the police are involved, but how you FEEL has nothing to do with it.
According to the legal precedence in Mass., and by his Constitutional rights, Gates' did nothing illegal. And unless you have no regard for the rights of others, the law and the Constitution you cannot possibly conclude logically that Gates' did anything other than what was completely legal for him to do. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/30/2009 11:38:48 PM | mungojoe said "We get that you FEEL that people should loose all their rights (or at least the ones you don't agree with that time) whenever the police are involved, but how you FEEL has nothing to do with it"
Actually I and probably many others feel that anytime an officer stops and questions you, good protocol would call for one to be cooperative and compliant, even when they feel they are not guilty of any wrongdoing.
It is usually good protocol that when a officer of the law is making sure that you and your residence are safe to be as cooperative and courteous as possible.
In Gates' interview he himself even admits to being uncooperative and difficult.
Acting in any other manner will usually escalate the incident, make one look suspicious and/or bring upon charges that otherwise would not be brought, including even being arrested as in the case of Gates.
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 2:51:56 AM |
Here is how the events should have transpired:
Crowley: Cambridge PD, We are investigating a report of a break in.
Gates: I live here
Crowley: May I see some identification please.
Gates: No problem, here you go.
Crowley: Thank you, have you seen any signs of a break in? We received a report of two men trying to forcibly enter the premises.
Gates: That was probably my Driver and Me.
Crowley: Ok, if you are sure there was no break in, we are done here.
Gates: Thank you for your quick response.
Deal done and we would not be in this thread...........
Crowley: Ok, if you are sure there was no break in, we are done here.
Gates: Yea like I told you before, It's JUST me and my driver here.
Oh-Oh...now its on... | |
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| Racism........... Really?
Posted: 7/31/2009 3:54:20 AM | "Up until this time there has been no report, even media report that I can find that Crowley made any statement/s to Gates in regards to race."..............
There doesn't have to be any mention of race for an act of racism to take place. The idea behind racial profiling prevention is to make sure that individuals aren't harrased or profiled for being a particular color.
This is NOT a case of racial profiling..
This was not a traffic stop, or a neighborhood crime sweep. |Not cleaning of drug infested area. Not security stops at airports,concerts,sporting events.
This was a dispatched call directed to an address period,|NOT a radom stop.
You can attempt to make this a racial profiling stop all you want, but it carries NO weight in this tragic attempt to make it such.
The "OH it was because of my race was the onlyreason I was stopped" cry does not apply.
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 4:05:03 AM | In Gates' interview he himself even admits to being uncooperative and difficult.
Acting in any other manner will usually escalate the incident, make one look suspicious and/or bring upon charges that otherwise would not be brought, including even being arrested as in the case of Gates.
EXACTLY,
and evident to anyone on an elementary level that has caught any of those "cop" shows that have been on tv the last 3 decades when you see a normal police situation escalated by some loud mouth idiot. Usually warned by the officers ahead of the arrest.
BUT, from a Professor with a lifetime of speeches/writtings/classes on racial relations can't muster this concept
PLEASE....
Gates calculated this move IMO.
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 5:45:05 AM |
It's not just the police officers that heard him yelling, various neighbors standing around heard Gates yelling inside the house and outside of the house.
That is absolutely correct. I dont care if its legal (as a select few keep trying to point out), or illegal, the point of that matter is,,,Gates was CLEARLY over-reacting to the whole situation and over what? Being asked to show his ID!! Jeeeeeeez! He totally disrespected an Officer of the Law who was doing his job, by carrying on like some 3 yr old having a tantrum.
Some keep insisting Crowley lied in his report. Where??? That is only their opinion. There is NO PROOF of that whatsoever. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 6:24:30 AM |
Now you begin to see just how many lives Crowley as affected because he couldn't be professional enough or smart enough to just leave after he had Gates ID.
If you want to go back to the root cause you need to rewrite that sentence to read:
Now you begin to see just how many lives Gates has affected because he couldn't be civil, respectful, intelligent or smart enough to conduct himself properly.
Ummm... no
Ummmm yeah....... Just because you disagree does not make it so. Since when did you become the arbiter of what is right and what is wrong. Gates behavior was the root cause of this incident. No matter how many times you state the contrary position Gates behavior is the root cause of the incident.
Gates was exercising his constitutional right to free speech in a manner that is protected by Mass. law.
Exercising free speech and behaving properly and with respect are vastly different things.
With the constitutionally guaranteed right of free speech, I can stand up in a crowded movie theater in the middle of a movie and yell " This movie F'n sucks, the Ex Wife is the killer and all of you that don't see that are stupid". I have the right to free speech that allows me to say that. However, I would then be thrown out of the theater for my behavior. Some times behaviors that are conceptually legal/allowable are inappropriate for a specific situation. Gates behavior, while legal, was inappropriate for the situation.
This is exactly what Gates did. he stood up in a crowded theater and yelled "fire" when there was no fire.
The only person who was acting outside of established law that day was Crowley when he drew Gates outside and wrongfully arrested him in contravention of his Constitutional rights and the laws of Mass.
How Gates went outside is a point of contention. It is unclear if he followed Crowley or was asked outside.
This unwavering support for the abuse of police power and the quoted statements clearly show a total lack of regard for the legal rights of others and a complete disdain for the Constitution. Crowley's abuse of authority is more suited to a police state than a democratic nation, but from many of the comments on that thread you would think that some Americans actually want that.
Oh for FFS, get off of your high horse. This incident is not about constitutional rights, abuse of authority or any other high browed concept you can conjure up. What it is about is an arrogant, self righteous man that decided he was above the law and his reaction to the lawful orders of a Police Officer legally doing his job.
Gates was given every opportunity to be cooperative and comply with the requests of Officer Crowley but he chose to be confrontational and uncooperative. Gates behavior is the root cause of the entire incident. There can be no denial of that fact.
This thread is going off track again. We need to focus back on the racism, specifically the lack thereof, in the Gates incident. Everyone has become so side tracked with the legality of the arrest that the original premise of the thread has been lost.
To date no one has come up with and logical, factual or reasonable support for Gates original charge of racism. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 6:26:32 AM | | I guess we'll be waiting a long time before one of the apologists explain why racist Crowley lied about having a conversation about race with Whalen before confronting Gates. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 7:02:53 AM | Oh for FFS, get off of your high horse. This incident is not about constitutional rights, abuse of authority or any other high browed concept you can conjure up.
Of course it is.
How can you possibly consider that arresting someone for doing somethng that is completely legal is NOT a violation of his civil rights?
How can you possibly consider someone being arrested for exercising his right to protected speech is anything but unconstitutional?
Because you disagree with what he was saying? Since when does that remove the legality of his action?
What it is about is an arrogant, self righteous man that decided he was above the law and his reaction to the lawful orders of a Police Officer legally doing his job.
Who was acting legally, not "above the law". The law in Mass. clearly indicates that his behaviour was not illegal. Just because you WISH it was doesn't make it that way.
Actually I and probably many others feel that anytime an officer stops and questions you, good protocol would call for one to be cooperative and compliant, even when they feel they are not guilty of any wrongdoing.
"Good protocol" is irrelevant. Whether Gates' behaviour was "good protocol" or not is irrelevant to the fact that it was legal.. "Good protocol" does not negate the fact that he was not doing anything against the law in Mass.
Acting in any other manner will usually escalate the incident, make one look suspicious and/or bring upon charges that otherwise would not be brought, including even being arrested as in the case of Gates.
And THAT is a violation of his rights.
Gates was given every opportunity to be cooperative and comply with the requests of Officer Crowley but he chose to be confrontational and uncooperative. Gates behavior is the root cause of the entire incident. There can be no denial of that fact.
How can Gates' legal act possibly be considered a legitimate "root cause" of Crowley's illegal one? Since when has a legal act ever been able to serve as a justification for an illegal one?
I dont care if its legal (as a select few keep trying to point out), or illegal
Clearly Gates' rights rights are meaningless to those who would try to use his arrest for a legal act as a springboard to "show those race-card players a thing or two".
I'm not overly surprised that some cannot see where Gates' was justified in expecting to be the victim of racial profiling when the legal and Constitutional rights of others are so meaningless to them. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 7:22:21 AM |
Some keep insisting Crowley lied in his report. Where??? That is only their opinion. There is NO PROOF of that whatsoever.
The person (that would be the 911 caller) denies ever telling Crowley the things he said she told him.
If Crowley is stating things were said which weren't said then he would be lieing. That's pretty straight forward. | |
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