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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 7:31:23 AM | Of course the arrest could be considered racially motivated.......well, maybe if the Professor had been co-operative anywho....but he wasn't and got arrested.....yawn....how dull!!!
If we are going to address Racism, then consider this:
Why does the whole of the developed world seemingly view the USA as a big pile of overly PC, compensation culture (cry-babies), gun loving, bourbon drinking trash?
BTW..... This is not how I feel about the USA, but honestly, almost everybody I discuss the USA with thinks that the good old U.S of A is beyond help.... | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 7:34:30 AM |
"Good protocol" is irrelevant. Whether Gates' behaviour was "good protocol" or not is irrelevant to the fact that it was legal.. "Good protocol" does not negate the fact that he was not doing anything against the law in Mass.
"Good protocol" is for "good Germans". Here, in the US, citizens don't worship the police they way they do in "police states". Unless you're a rightwinger. The rightwingers do worship the police and believe the police should be allowed to arrest whomever they want for whatever reason they want, so long as "whomever" means "not a rightwinger". | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 7:45:44 AM |
I guess we'll be waiting a long time before one of the apologists explain why racist Crowley lied about having a conversation about race with Whalen before confronting Gates
Who says he lied...you? Ive asked for proof that he lied...no one can show it! After Gates' ridiculous outburst, Crowley filled out his report. He had no reason to believe Whalen would deny having a conversation with him before he entered Gates' house. So of course he's going to fill in events and conversations as they happend. Whalen is the one who is lying about hers and Crowleys conversation. She was probably scared sh*tless when the *cough* President stepped in and when she had been labeled a racist by bloggers everywhere. She's gonna shut her mouth and hope her 911 call will suffice. BUT,,it doesnt. Im more apt to believe an Officer of the Law with an impeccable record and who is highly respected by his peers.
"Good protocol" is irrelevant. Whether Gates' behaviour was "good protocol" or not is irrelevant to the fact that it was legal.. "Good protocol" does not negate the fact that he was not doing anything against the law in Mass.fronting Gates.
Who cares if it was legal or not?? He did not have to go off the way he did! He was irrational and out of control,,,,,how can you not see that?? If he'd have just done as the officer had asked (shown PROPER ID, and not play power trip by showing his Harvard ID) this thread wouldnt exist. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 7:48:40 AM |
This is NOT a case of racial profiling..
This was not a traffic stop, or a neighborhood crime sweep. |Not cleaning of drug infested area. Not security stops at airports,concerts,sporting events.
This was a dispatched call directed to an address period,|NOT a radom stop.
You can attempt to make this a racial profiling stop all you want, but it carries NO weight in this tragic attempt to make it such.
The "OH it was because of my race was the onlyreason I was stopped" cry does not apply.
Right.
I never said this was a case of racial profiling--I was commenting on what racial profiling prevention is supposed to achieve.
Who cares if it was legal or not??
Those of us who appreciate our Constitutional rights care if it was legal or not. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 7:49:24 AM | mungojoe said
"Good protocol" is irrelevant. Whether Gates' behaviour was "good protocol" or not is irrelevant to the fact that it was legal.. "Good protocol" does not negate the fact that he was not doing anything against the law in Mass.
Maybe in Canada Good Protocol towards public servants is irrelevant. . In fact that is why there are certain laws on the books in our Country, which Crowley properly used.
Perhaps Canadian citizens feel good protocol in regards to officers of the law doesn't mean anything but in our country most of our American citizens do.
Not sure about Canada, but in America most people try to their best to respect officers of the law, especially when they are trying to protect our life and property.
Maybe in Canada it is ok scream accusations at officers of the law, but in our country there are laws and most of us Americans have better manners.
op said
To date no one has come up with and logical, factual or reasonable support for Gates original charge of racism.
From Gates own interview it is apparent that Gates had a biased predisposition towards the officer trying to gather information.. Consequently Gates mindset seemed to be the root of all his unwarranted and uncooperative actions. I feel Gates has/had NO "logical, factual or reasonable" corroboration for his charges of racism based on several souces researched, including Gates own interview | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 7:55:07 AM | Who cares if it was legal or not??
People who actually care about lawful rights and the Constitution care. Those things may not mean anything to you since you state "who cares" but to most they are important considerations.
Police do not have the right to just arrest on a whim because they are being "called names", at least not in Mass.
He did not have to go off the way he did!
Gates may not have HAD to but it was his right under the Constitution and legal under the laws of Mass. to do so. Sorry if that is inconvenient to those who want to "show those minorities and their race-card a thing or two".
She was probably scared sh*tless when the *cough* President stepped in
Obama may not be a small man and I know some people, because of their mindset, find all black men "intimidating" but "intimidating" is one of the last descriptors that immediately leap to mind about him. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 7:56:34 AM |
Who cares if it was legal or not??
Americans do. Criminals and conservatives don't
He did not have to go off the way he did!
Neither did you
He was irrational and out of control
No he wasn't
how can you not see that??
I'm not psychotic | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 8:04:24 AM |
Those of us who appreciate our Constitutional rights care if it was legal or not.
Well now,,why dont we all just act like raving lunatics and start yelling at police officers when they are trying to help us.... I mean why not? Its legal right?
Un-freakin-believable. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 8:12:36 AM | 'Lunatic'.
How appropriate.
Gates was arrested and the charges were dropped.
The charges were dropped because he had done nothing illegal.
Those of us who appreciate our Constitutional rights care about those kinds of things.
It is unfreakin'believable to me that someone would not question being arrested for not breaking a law. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 8:40:38 AM | geeleebee said
It is unfreakin'believable to me that someone would not question being arrested for not breaking a law.
I agree with on this point that people should question an arrest if they are not breaking the law.
That is where my agreement ends. In the questioning beeing arrested when not breaking the law, it is helps ones case to be cooperative and civil.
I have searched, yet cannot find where anyone says that Professor Gates was illegally arrested for disturbing the peace. In fact I can't find where anyone says the charges were dropped because Gates was wholly falsely or illegally arrested, even in the statement from his lawyer.(just maybe his lawyer was concentrating on Gates' racial allegations too much).
One of Gates’ attorneys, Walter Prince, said he spoke with the Cambridge Police Department before they decided to ask prosecutors to drop the charges. “I believe the matter has been resolved at this juncture and both sides are satisfied,” Prince said. http://www.wbur.org/2009/07/22/gates-charges-dropped-2
In a joint statement, Cambridge and the police department said they made the recommendation to the Middlesex County district attorney and the district attorney's office "has agreed to enter a nolle prosequi in this matter," meaning that it will not be pursued. http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/21/massachusetts.harvard.professor.arrested/index.html
Police dismissed the charges Tuesday"This incident should not be viewed as one that demeans the character and reputation of professor Gates or the character of the Cambridge Police Department," said Kelly Downes, a spokeswoman for the department. "All parties agree this is a just resolution to an unfortunate set of circumstances."Downs said race was not a factor in the arrest, which she called justified. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106860000
Disorderly conduct charges will be dropped against Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr., according to the Middlesex District Attorney's office. http://www.wickedlocal.com/cambridge/news/x135762569/Report-Charges-dropped-against-Henry-Louis-Gates | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 8:56:32 AM | | First allow me to say upfront that I believe BOTH men used poor judgment which exacerbated the situation. Being a white female who has gone off on a cop and been arrested for it, I don't see this as an instance of prejudice or racial profiling. It was a instance of a black man drawing on his and his race's collective experiences with racism in response to the 'final straw' of a bad day. I don't believe racism or profiling were taking place but I can certainly understand why Gates perceived it as he did. However, his (over)reaction did not serve him well. I don't believe Crowley went there with ill intentions nor do I believe his own poor judgment was a result of the color of the skin of the man with whom he was dealing. I do believe he was angered and offended by Gate's behavior, and at some point made the snap, poor decision to agitate/inconvenience Gates by remaining longer than necessary. He also was wrong to arrest Gates on charges he had to know in his many years of experience would not be upheld and filed by a Mass. prosecutor. He should have just walked away but I can see how his and his professional colleageus' collective experiences contributed to his own final straw moment. Perhaps he should have arrested Gates for interfering with an officer/investigation. Perhaps that would make everyone happier or might have had a snowball's chance in h***. I don't really believe that's what he should have done... just throwing something new out for folks to argue about. Heh! | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 9:12:56 AM | Good thought out points WindRoper
Crowley was trying to walk away and it apparently didn't look like Gates was going to calm down. No one knows how much longer Gates would have gone on ranting, but at what point does someone finally step in. Actually I was surprised that one of his neighborhood friends didn't try and see if Gates would calm down for them. Maybe they were just too shocked by the behavior.
From the way it sounded from police reports and some of the neighbors, Gates behavior kept escalating from inside of the house to the outside. Maybe like a cold splash of water to the face, Crowley did the only thing he could in order to de escalate the situation, cuff Gates. Apparently that didn't work until Gates was finally sitting in a police cruiser.
But I DO NOT think that this was a case of racism against Gates, no matter how one approaches it. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 9:27:36 AM |
Crowley did the only thing he could in order to de escalate the situation, cuff Gates.
The right thing to do would have been for Sgt. Crowley to get into his car and leave.
He didn't do the 'only thing' he could--he did the most convenient thing--arrest
Dr. Gates, who was not breaking the law.
People can 'what if' forever, but it doesn't change Massachusetts law.
Dr. Gates was not breaking the law.
When one does not break the law, one should not be arrested. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 9:32:46 AM | Killene, I've heard so much but seen so little actual evidence and I certainly was not there to ascertain the facts for myself so I can only offer conjecture in response to some of your comments. For instance:
I've heard that Crowley asked Gates to follow him outside, not that he tried to walk away. I've heard that Crowley in the process of radioing in (I believe to verify the ID he had been provided) stated he believed the man to be the lawful and legitimate tenant. If that is true (and after confirming no one else was in the house and Gates was not acting under duress since he had been told of TWO suspicious persons but only found one man... as it is my understanding the driver had already departed), Crowley would have been better served by having thanked Prof. Gates for his time and patience, apologizing for any inconvenience (even if neither was heart-felt), and leaving. But our own experiences, issues and stubborn pride get the best of us sometimes. I know I've certainly BTDT. I've heard Gates was a fairly new tenant... so maybe his neighbors do not know him or at least well enough to be familiar with his communication style, issues or moods, much less to interject themselves into the situation.
I also do not believe it is a case of racism or profiling. I do not believe it is a case of false arrest. I would only agree with it being false arrest if the party had done nothing that could even be loosely miscontrued. Gates was uncooperative to say the least, and Crowley allowed that behavior to cloud his judgment. Many expect more of persons of authority. I even say it myself sometimes. But the truth of the matter is we all are just fallible humans. Our position in life does not always translate into better and more effective judgment 24/7. We can WISH it did, but it doesn't.
Dr. Gates was not breaking the law. When one does not break the law, one should not be arrested.
Gee, I frequently enjoy your comments and have respect for your opinions. However, in this instance, I believe you also may be experiencing a too-close-to-the-forrest moment. Gates' actions could be considered as interfering with an officer/investigation. Police sometimes will arrest a person for one thing (burglary) but the DA will end up filing a different or lesser charge (possession of stolen property) cuz all the points of law are not there within the record to support the officer's original recommendation. I'm not saying Crowley was perfectly right to arrest Gates, and I agree with you that Crowley had other options and should have taken one of them. But I do believe the record as I understand it to exist at this moment would have supported a different charge and the prosecutor was correct to decline to pursue the matter. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 9:40:30 AM |
In the questioning beeing arrested when not breaking the law, it is helps ones case to be cooperative and civil.
With 11 years working for criminal defense attys', I can say with certainty that you're wrong about that. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 9:51:04 AM |
With 11 years working for criminal defense attys', I can say with certainty that you're wrong about that.
Sounds impressive ... until we find out what you actually do for criminal defense attorneys. What is your job title?
Because if you just deliver their mail or answer their telephone, then I don't care if you work 45 years for them, your opinion has no more weight than of someone who works in a laundromat. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 9:54:53 AM | Seems that so many on here feel that Gates did not break any laws (which by the way is NOT the subject matter of this thread).
Yet in many reports, and statements there seems to not be anyone directly connected( not ever Gates lawyer) who says Gates was Falsely arrested. Seems Gates lawyer would have brought up a false arrest in one of his many statements. Gates and his lawyer seemed to be trying to prove the arrest was racial.
The are many times when one is approached by an officer of the law. Sometimes it is because we are a suspect and sometimes when we are a witness. No matter what the reason one should be as civil and accommodating as possible to these officers in order not to escalate the situation.
Gates escalated a simple police investigation to make sure his property and life were safe into a crazy non-warranted furious irate tantrum on his part. Thus after two warnings while outside the house, Gates was arrested on a disorderly conduct charge.
I do not feel that Gates was treated in any racist manner nor do I feel that Gates' arrest was due to his race.(Subject Matter of Thread). | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 10:14:52 AM |
Seems that so many on here feel that Gates did not break any laws
No, we KNOW that Gates didn't break any laws, which is why he isn't being charged with any crimes
Yet in many reports, and statements there seems to not be anyone directly connected( not ever Gates lawyer) who says Gates was Falsely arrested.
Gates' said he was being falsely arrested, and so did his lawyer
Gates and his lawyer seemed to be trying to prove the arrest was racial.
Neither of them have said that. You seem to see things that aren't there, while not seeing what is
The are many times when one is approached by an officer of the law. Sometimes it is because we are a suspect and sometimes when we are a witness. No matter what the reason one should be as civil and accommodating as possible to these officers in order not to escalate the situation.
Very bad advice.
http://books.google.com/books?id=mvlXStpeSVEC&pg=PA385&lpg=PA385&dq=%22Police+stops%22+advice&source=bl&ots=cQxw7bL9QP&sig=6qHsnU2dmIQcNZ4RLJYJYITTTBc&hl=en&ei=lSVzSvGVOcSOlQfllaHmCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
a defense lawyers most sacred piece of advice is this: Don't talk to the police unless yo clearly weren't involved and you want to help the police solve it. And even then, it's not a bad idea to politely demur until you have your own attorney or public defender by your side
There was no crime, so Gates had no reason to cooperate with the police | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 10:31:41 AM | NoBushLover said
Neither of them have said that. You seem to see things that aren't there, while not seeing what is
Gates co-founded an online magazine called "The Root" which he is co editor. On July 21, 2009 at 5:34 PM (about 4 days after the arrest) they posted an interview with Professor Gates called "Skip Gates speaks"
In that article Gates says
But really it’s not about me—it’s that anybody black can be treated this way..... He just presumed that I was guilty, and he presumed that I was guilty because I was black. There was no doubt about that..
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,2 | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 11:12:33 AM |
Gates co-founded an online magazine called "The Root" which he is co editor. On July 21, 2009 at 5:34 PM (about 4 days after the arrest) they posted an interview with Professor Gates called "Skip Gates speaks"
In that article Gates says
But really it’s not about me—it’s that anybody black can be treated this way..... He just presumed that I was guilty, and he presumed that I was guilty because I was black. There was no doubt about that..
Yes, but notice that Gates said that 4 days AFTER he had been falsely arrested. What do you expect someone to say after his constitutional rights have been violated. Do you expect a citizen to start praising the actions of those who violated his rights, just because the violators wear a badge on the uniform, both of those items being paid by the citizens!
Wake up! This is the 21st century, not the middle ages. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 11:38:43 AM | A couple of things (sorry if I'm repeating what others have already said):
I keep seeing posts about how Sgt. Crowley warned Mr Gates many times before arresting him for disorderly behavior...as if that was supposed to calm him down--how does that work when it's obvious that Sgt. Crowley was a contributing factor to that behavior? It's like if I have a dog that always barks when it sees strangers. If a visitor comes over and steps into my back yard, I'll get non-stop barking from my dog until the stranger is out of sight...it doesn't matter how many times I tell the dog to shut up, so I'm just going to tell my guest to go inside--problem solved. Sorry that Mr Gates was the dog in that analogy, but you get the point. One of the other officers, if not Crowley himself, should have realised that leaving would restore calm.
At first I thought it was all pride and ego with Mr Gates, but I forgot something very important..."FEAR". Some people believe that as long as you are innocent, you should always cooperate with the cops--I'm one of them, but I know there are some horror stories out there. Unfortunately, the cops have a bad reputation when it comes to dealing with minorities. So a black man seeing a cop on his porch, and that cop telling him to step outside, that equals "horror story" to some. I could see a black man, who is alone and afraid, being loud so that people would pay attention...maybe if the driver was still there, or he had friends over while this was going on, it wouldn't have caused him to over react (assuming the officer didn't think they were all guilty of B&E LOL). After reading his statement in that interview, I can see how a little bit of fear, pride, and ego all contributed to his "conduct".
I'm not going to call the arrest unlawful, although I do agree that it wouldn't stand up in court--especially since the police weren't called out there because Mr Gates was disturbing the peace--in fact, they were a contributing factor, even if unintentionally. I think the motivation behing the arrest was that Mr Gates got under Crowley's skin. Crowley gave a warning thinking that would shut this guy up, but that's a challenge Mr Gates answered. At that point he almost "had to" arrest him...LOL
Some of you are arguing the race angle, defending Crowley, some are arguing the Constitution was violated, defending Gates...why aren't you all laughing by now? Seriously, it's old enough now to be funny. Think about it, Gates causes a commotion to get peoples' attention so that he won't be mistreated by the police, and Crowley forces himself into a situation where he has to arrest Gates on charges he knows won't stand...so they both lose! It's like the story where the woman sells her hair to buy a chain for her husband's watch, but he sells his watch to buy a comb for her beautiful hair--it's tragic, but funny at the same time!!!! LOL | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 11:44:41 AM | why aren't you all laughing by now? Seriously, it's old enough now to be funny... it's tragic, but funny at the same time!!!! LOL
We were looking at the pics of the four beer-a-teers last night and my bf said "Wouldn't it be funny if Crowley and Gates gave each other the thumbs up and one of them said 'I TOLD you we'd get into the Whitehouse! And beer to boot! Cheers, dude!" 
P.S. I would be interested in hearing exactly which one of Gates' constitutional rights some think was violated. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 12:04:32 PM |
NoBushLover said
Neither of them have said that. You seem to see things that aren't there, while not seeing what is Gates co-founded an online magazine called "The Root" which he is co editor. On July 21, 2009 at 5:34 PM (about 4 days after the arrest) they posted an interview with Professor Gates called "Skip Gates speaks"
In that article Gates says
But really it’s not about me—it’s that anybody black can be treated this way..... He just presumed that I was guilty, and he presumed that I was guilty because I was black. There was no doubt about that.. Don't think I didn't notice your dishonest editing of what Gates said. You actually went out of your way to take out the words (see the elipsis in the quote) that prove you wrong, which shows your intent to deceive us about what Gates said about his arrest. Here's the ENTIRE quote But really it’s not about me—it’s that anybody black can be treated this way, just arbitrarily arrested out of spite. And THE MAN WHO ARRESTED ME DID IT OUT OF SPITE, because he knew I was going to file a report because of his behavior. He is clear that the arrest wasn't racial. He is clear about why he was arrested, I'll repeat the man who arrested me did it out of spite Gates was arrested out of spite, not race. And why would Crowley arrest Gates "out of spite". because he knew I was going to file a report because of his behavior Next time, why don't you try a less transparent way to spin? | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 12:07:09 PM | Would someone please show where anyone directly connected (Police Chief, Gates, Gates' lawyer, DA and ??? )with this case has said that this was an ILLEGAL arrest. Depending on whom you talk to some might say it was not the wisest but I fail to find anyone directly connected that says it was an ILLEGAL arrest.
Hey an Illegal arrest is a lot easier to prove that an arrest due to racism, so why wasn't Gates or his lawyer talking about that.
In Gates and his lawyer's various interviews and media appearance they have kept pointing to the fact this was done because Gates is black. Read the interview in the paper that Gates is editor in chief of. Not once does he say anything about it being ILLEGAL only that it was an arrest because he is black.
It is due to these various unprovoked judgmental statements by Gates, along with various other reports and articles that I DO NOT feel that any of Crowley 's actions were in any way racist .(thread topic).
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 7/31/2009 12:10:03 PM |
why aren't you all laughing by now? Seriously, it's old enough now to be funny.
You know what, countree? You are absolutely right! lol Ive personally enjoyed reading thru and participating in this thread, but yeah, its time to let it go. lol I guess we can all agree to disagree, and thats fine with me. :)
With that,,,im done! lol
Btw,,,this really was a great thread. :) | |
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