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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 7/31/2009 12:35:36 PM |
Don't think I didn't notice your dishonest editing of what Gates said. You actually went out of your way to take out the words (see the elipsis in the quote) that prove you wrong, which shows your intent to deceive us about what Gates said about his arrest.
Here is the Entire Quote from Gates' interview in "The Root". Unlike the other incorrect version this contains all the words and punctuation. It does not change the point that was being made. It was done in legal format in order not to lose further focus on the point being made from an overly long writing. It was not done for spin.
The point was that Gates believed and assumed everything Crowley did including the arrest was due to him being black.
"But really it’s not about me—it’s that anybody black can be treated this way, just arbitrarily arrested out of spite. And the man who arrested me did it out of spite, because he knew I was going to file a report because of his behavior. He didn’t follow proper police procedure! You can’t just presume I’m guilty and arrest me. He’s supposed to ask me if I need help. He just presumed that I was guilty, and he presumed that I was guilty because I was black. There was no doubt about that." http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,3 http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,2 | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 7/31/2009 2:17:50 PM |
Some keep insisting Crowley lied in his report. Where??? That is only their opinion. There is NO PROOF of that whatsoever.
The person (that would be the 911 caller) denies ever telling Crowley the things he said she told him.
If Crowley is stating things were said which weren't said then he would be lieing. That's pretty straight forward.
Because Whalen denies it, does not prove Crowley lied.
I'm still not entirely convinced Crowley lied on the report. At the least its a case of he said/she said unless we have witnesses to back up Whalen's claim she did not mention two back guys.
And considering Whalen and her lawyer are inconsistent with her story on not talking at Crowley at all makes her statement suspect. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 7/31/2009 5:29:16 PM |
Wonder away. It didn't happen like that, so what is the point of 'what if'? I thought the 'point' was obvious, apparently not. We'll never know what Dr. Gates' reaction would have been had Sgt. Lashley been the first on the scene, that is a given.
I simply took the exact same what if liberties that Dr. Gates stated in his interview. "he demanded that I step out on the porch, and I don’t think he would have done that if I was a white person."
We'll also never know what would have happened had Dr. Gates been white, another given. Dr. Gates sees none of this happening had he been a white person. I see none of this happening had Officer Crowley been a black person. And herein lies the rub. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 7/31/2009 5:44:53 PM |
We'll also never know what would have happened had Dr. Gates been white, another given. Dr. Gates sees none of this happening had he been a white person. I see none of this happening had Officer Crowley been a black person. And herein lies the rub.
I think the rub is that throughout the whole process Gates seems to blame this whole affair on him being black. (apparent in various part of his interview and statements). Yet not once did Crowley say anything to Gates that indicated that Crowley felt this way Anyone looking at this scenario, knows how it is usually played out and Crowley did what he did by the book. Was Crowley acting or speaking in a racist manner? In my opinion Crowley was not acting in type of prejudice manner towards Gates. | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/31/2009 7:04:02 PM | simple. he's been abused by racism for so long that it's hard to see the "innocence" in a situation that is commonplace. But which one? Racial profiling is as commonplace as the officer's standard procedure.
Actually both of them were out of line. He was probably mouthing off and in RETALIATION he was arrested. That is an abuse of power by the officer, which I've experienced more than once myself. The police will cover for their own and make up lies to make their story look better. I don't trust any of the "conversation" that the police say happened, since they lie all the time to cover up their misconduct and the lady who reported the incident does not corroborate the police description of a black man.
Obama hit the nail on the head when he said if cooler heads had prevailed this would not have happened. Both Professor Gates and the officer who arrested him were out of line. | |
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| Racism........... Really? Posted: 7/31/2009 8:59:54 PM | I'm' amazed.
The discussion of this topic has indeed polarized to the point of each (or most) posters demanding that their comments be taken as fact.
One poster even says he has over a decade of experience with defense attournys and procedes to give extremely bad advice in conversations or even a confrontation with law enforcement officers or authority. It's getting to the point of being ludicrus.
An officer responds to a potentially dangerous situation. Handles it as best he can with an unco-operative person at the scene. Winds up arresting an outraged most likely racists motivated person. (How else could one explain Gates' irrational actions?) The DA drops the charges, why we aren't told.
President O-dumb-azz (not original, I know but it fits here) screws up and stupidly sticks his nose into it and makes it a national incident.
If Gates is as stupid as he acted then he might sue for false arrest but would be laughed out of court and not only have the arrest on his record but the indignity of losing the lawsuit. He should be more worried about his job status after this incident.
I don't think Gates is stupid all the time. So I doubt he would really sue.
After watching Officer Crowely have a "press conference" I am impressed at the self restraint and confidence he has. He not only does his job with obvious profesionalism but can handle an irate racists slander him and handle a (at least in this case) stupid president try to shift focus and blame for this whole silly incident upon Crowley's shoulders.
Crowely comes out as a somewhat celebrity. Gates comes out as foolish. Obama comes out with plumeting popularity ratings!
The teachable moment? What was learned? Confucious say... keep mouth shut and foot won't fit in it. Whata' Country!!  | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 5:48:01 AM |
No, we KNOW that Gates didn't break any laws, which is why he isn't being charged with any crimes LIE, tin foil hat wearing "liberal think"
Gates' said he was being falsely arrested, and so did his lawyer LIE, tin foil hat wearing "liberal think"
Neither of them have said that. You seem to see things that aren't there, while not seeing what is LIE, tin foil hatwearling "liberal think"
Wow, this is fun. You don't actually have to debate or do any kind of reasoning! Just put everyone who doesn't goose step with you into a neat little box! woo hoo
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 7:21:29 AM | Here is an interesting perspective on this whole mess;
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/01/opinion/01herbert.html?_r=1&em=&pagewanted=print
August 1, 2009 Op-Ed Columnist Anger Has Its Place By BOB HERBERT Cambridge, Mass.
No more than five or six minutes elapsed from the time the police were alerted to the possibility of a break-in at a home in a quiet residential neighborhood and the awful clamping of handcuffs on the wrists of the distinguished Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr.
If Professor Gates ranted and raved at the cop who entered his home uninvited with a badge, a gun and an attitude, he didn’t rant and rave for long. The 911 call came in at about 12:45 on the afternoon of July 16 and, as The Times has reported, Mr. Gates was arrested, cuffed and about to be led off to jail by 12:51.
The charge: angry while black.
The president of the United States has suggested that we use this flare-up as a “teachable moment,” but so far exactly the wrong lessons are being drawn from it — especially for black people. The message that has gone out to the public is that powerful African-American leaders like Mr. Gates and President Obama will be very publicly slapped down for speaking up and speaking out about police misbehavior, and that the proper response if you think you are being unfairly targeted by the police because of your race is to chill.
I have nothing but contempt for that message.
Mr. Gates is a friend, and I was selected some months ago to receive an award from an institute that he runs at Harvard. I made no attempt to speak to him while researching this column.
The very first lesson that should be drawn from the encounter between Mr. Gates and the arresting officer, Sgt. James Crowley, is that Professor Gates did absolutely nothing wrong. He did not swear at the officer or threaten him. He was never a danger to anyone. At worst, if you believe the police report, he yelled at Sergeant Crowley. He demanded to know if he was being treated the way he was being treated because he was black.
You can yell at a cop in America. This is not Iran. And if some people don’t like what you’re saying, too bad. You can even be wrong in what you are saying. There is no law against that. It is not an offense for which you are supposed to be arrested.
That’s a lesson that should have emerged clearly from this contretemps.
It was the police officer, Sergeant Crowley, who did something wrong in this instance. He arrested a man who had already demonstrated to the officer’s satisfaction that he was in his own home and had been minding his own business, bothering no one. Sergeant Crowley arrested Professor Gates and had him paraded off to jail for no good reason, and that brings us to the most important lesson to be drawn from this case. Black people are constantly being stopped, searched, harassed, publicly humiliated, assaulted, arrested and sometimes killed by police officers in this country for no good reason.
New York City cops make upwards of a half-million stops of private citizens each year, questioning and frequently frisking these men, women and children. The overwhelming majority of those stopped are black or Latino, and the overwhelming majority are innocent of any wrongdoing. A true “teachable moment” would focus a spotlight on such outrages and the urgent need to stop them.
But this country is not interested in that.
I wrote a number of columns about the arrests of more than 30 black and Hispanic youngsters — male and female — who were doing nothing more than walking peacefully down a quiet street in Brooklyn in broad daylight in the spring of 2007. The kids had to hire lawyers and fight the case for nearly two frustrating years before the charges were dropped and a settlement for their outlandish arrests worked out.
Black people need to roar out their anger at such treatment, lift up their voices and demand change. Anyone counseling a less militant approach is counseling self-defeat. As of mid-2008, there were 4,777 black men imprisoned in America for every 100,000 black men in the population. By comparison, there were only 727 white male inmates per 100,000 white men.
While whites use illegal drugs at substantially higher percentages than blacks, black men are sent to prison on drug charges at 13 times the rate of white men.
Most whites do not want to hear about racial problems, and President Obama would rather walk through fire than spend his time dealing with them. We’re never going to have a serious national conversation about race. So that leaves it up to ordinary black Americans to rant and to rave, to demonstrate and to lobby, to march and confront and to sue and generally do whatever is necessary to stop a continuing and deeply racist criminal justice outrage.
The author of this article seems to know what he is talking about. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 7:34:33 AM | ^^The bigots don't want to talk about how the racist cops arrested a black man who committed no crime.
I bet they were just as happy when the govt killed Randy Weaver, and think he got what he deserved | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 7:34:55 AM |
The author of this article seems to know what he is talking about.
Much of what this author has to say is true for any number of black persons in America and other races, but this author is also biased (he's purportedly a friend of Mr. Gates) and also wasn't there to know what transpired in this particular case. Mr. Gates has an agenda and this was a perfect platform. It could have been handled better by both individuals involved. One has to learn that not every issue in life revolves around his race and the other has to be more mindful to not be so reactionary when someone is deliberately goading him - whether they be black, white or any other variation of colour. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 7:52:06 AM |
Much of what this author has to say is true for any number of black persons in America and other races, but this author is also biased...
The fact that the author is a friend/acquaintance of Dr. Gates does not negate the truth of what he wrote. The two are mutually exclusive.
Bob Herbert is a columnist who has written eloquently of the anger and violence and racismin America today, among other topics. Read more of his work: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/bobherbert/index.html | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 7:52:52 AM |
Here is an interesting perspective on this whole mess;
Nicely written editorial, nevertheless it lacks quite a few known facts from the police reports, various neighborhood witnesses and Professor Gates himself.
Except for the missing facts I feel Bob Herbert wrote a nice editorial testimony on his colleague and friend Professor Gates' incident.
In keeping with the thread's question, I still do not feel Gates was a victim of racism. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 8:08:43 AM | killene said
Except for the missing facts I feel Bob Herbert wrote a nice editorial testimony on his colleague and friend Professor Gates' incident. Well said. As a editorial writing from a friend and colleague I too found it a nice editorial perspective on Professor Gates.
The fact that the author is a friend/acquaintance of Dr. Gates does not negate the truth of what he wrote. The two are mutually exclusive. Even the president himself was smart enough to say that the professor was a friend and he might be a bit biased. Obama said "Skip Gates is a friend so I may be a little biased here" (about 50 secs into the video). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4orlwM1AFE&feature=PlayList&p=8ABE5920A79F9D44&index=5 | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 8:09:27 AM | nevertheless it lacks quite a few known facts from the police reports, various neighborhood witnesses and Professor Gates himself.
This article is not a report--if the reader misses that salient fact, then the entire point Bob Herbert is making, is lost.
Bob Herbert is a columnist--the point of the piece is not a debate on the guilt or innocence of Dr. Gates, but the history behind, and the legacy of, some racist acts in America, and the lessons we can/need to learn from those acts.
The only thing I would change about what Bob Herbert said, is this:
Black people need to roar out their anger at such treatment, lift up their voices and demand change. I would change 'Black people' for 'All Americans'. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 8:10:03 AM |
He demanded to know if he was being treated the way he was being treated because he was black.
He could have just as easily asked if he was being treated this way because he was being obstinant by initially not providing his ID and because of his sarcasm throughout. The article by Mr. Herbert, which does outline the plight of many people in America, also encourages militancy, which is precisely what Mr. Gates was doing - as I said, a perfect platform of his own creation for his own agenda. It would be more believable if it wasn't of his own creation. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 8:13:03 AM |
The bigots don't want to talk about how the racist cops arrested a black man who committed no crime.
And the apologists want to believe that every Police Officer is a racist and that every arrested Black person is innocent, and arrested solely on the basis of race.
Try a dose of reality. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 8:14:05 AM |
The bigots don't want to talk about how the racist cops arrested a black man who committed no crime. I bet they were just as happy when the govt killed Randy Weaver, and think he got what he deserved your view of the world is black white you package everything and everyone with labels
if one thinks Crowley didn't racially profile, they're a "bigot" Crowley became "racist cops" but Gates, who at the least provoked the police office, becomes the "black man" then you try to make some connection to the Randy Weaver case- and then try to link people who think Crowley didn't act in a racist manner with those who think Randy Weave got "what he deserved"
you are so slanted by your belief that all liberals are wise, honest and perpetualy right in all things all conservatives are dumb, dishonest and always wrong it is no wonder that you are totally biased against Crowley and you would have believed anything that Gates said because your world is so..... black/white good/bad
you have no objectivity any more a characterture-
truth will never be obtained through your way of thinking Fox News isn't always wrong and MSNBC isn't always right they are both as slanted as you are~ | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 8:21:05 AM |
And the apologists want to believe that every Police Officer is a racist and that every arrested Black person is innocent, and arrested solely on the basis of race. Nice try... but a complete strawman, when one can't argue the point, simply invent a point to argue.
No one on this thread has said anything close to the position you attempt to attribute.
Try a dose or reality. Good advice, considering the "point" you have tried to make is a fabrication that can't be found in the thread. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 8:42:04 AM |
nevertheless it lacks quite a few known facts from the police reports, various neighborhood witnesses and Professor Gates himself. (from post 867) This article is not a report--if the reader misses that salient fact, then the entire point Bob Herbert is making, is lost. said by geeleebee A while back in order not to overload a post with print I condensed a quote using legal format. However the words left out did not change the meaning of the quote. The misquote in this post however does change the meaning of what IS written in post #867. Please note first 3 words of the sentence.
Nicely written editorial, nevertheless it lacks quite a few known facts from the police reports, various neighborhood witnesses and Professor Gates himself. (from 867) As I said before Professor Gates' friend wrote a nice testimonial editorial, which does not change my opinion on the issue of the thread's topic.
In reference to post 873, Professor Gates stated he felt he was arrested due to being black.
He just presumed that I was guilty, and he presumed that I was guilty because I was black. There was no doubt about that." http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,3
I feel Sgt Crowley did not treat Gates in a racial attitude or manner | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 8:54:32 AM | I pointed out that Bob Herbert and Dr. Gates being friends changes nothing about what Herbert said with regard to racism in America. His editorial is not a 'testimonial' to Dr. Gates--and the fact that you think it is, validates my suspicion that you missed the point of Herbert's words.
The friendship between Dr. Gates and Bob Herbert, and Herbert's editorial on racism and its effects are mutually exclusive.
To be clear: I believe that Sgt. Crowley believes that he is not a racist. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 8:58:32 AM | | The fact that Gates and Herbert and friends and much of their life is a cause (not a bad cause) points to the fact that they can both be over-zealous, as a number of people can be when they have a cause. Not every black man is treated poorly just because many are. Not every cop is a racist because some are. Often those who cry racism are racists themselves. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 9:10:30 AM |
The fact that Gates and Herbert and friends and much of their life is a cause (not a bad cause) points to the fact that they can both be over-zealous, as a number of people can be when they have a cause. Not every black man is treated poorly just because many are. Not every cop is a racist because some are. Often those who cry racism are racists themselves.
Who is asserting that every Black man is treated poorly? Who is asserting that every cop is racist? A fine example of hyperbole.
Being overly zealous is not a 'Black Only' one-way street.
Often those who cry racism are racists themselves. Statistics? Source? Or, just an opinion? | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 9:20:25 AM |
I feel Sgt Crowley did not treat Gates in a racial attitude or manner
You can feel whatever you want!
Hopefully in the near future, when Sargent Crowley and Professor Gates are able to meet and discuss the events of that day, and they agree to let us know exactly what happened, we will know what transpired then.
For now I will stick to the known facts: Crowley arrested Gates for no good reason, so much so that the Cambridge P.D. Commissioner and the City of Cambridge recommended to the D.A. to dismiss the charges.
You can go around repeating, without really knowing what happened inside that house, that Crowley didn't act this or that way. Gates has said that when Crowley asked him for identification he closed the door and went looking for his wallet in the kitchen and came back to the door to show the ID to Crowley.
What happen after that is still really murky. We have the Crowley report, but we now know that it is suspect because Crowley put in it things that didn't happen.
So, feel as much as you want, but I would be asking questions about what happened inside that house: Why did Gates become so upset? Did Crowley say or do anything to cause Gates' reaction? Did Gates feel disrespected in his own home?, etc...
These questions can be truthfully answered only by Crowley and Gates if they decide to cooperate to help America bridge the racial divide. Anyone else speaking about what happened there in terms of actions not being racially motivated is doing so just to further their agenda. | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 9:28:17 AM | geeleebee said
Who is asserting that every Black man is treated poorly?
Actually Gates himself does, one of the people this thread is about. The point about blacks being treated poorly is brought up frequently in the article "Skip Gates Speaks" in the online magazine "The Root". The article is an interview with Gates pertaining to his arrest. Since Gates co-founded and is editor in chief of "The Root" I would think that what is in the article is not misquotes or misprints. http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,0 | |
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| Racism........... Really. Posted: 8/1/2009 9:44:49 AM |
So, feel as much as you want, but I would be asking questions about what happened inside that house: Why did Gates become so upset? Did Crowley say or do anything to cause Gates' reaction? Did Gates feel disrespected in his own home?, etc...
Well it is a bit conspicuous from Gates' own words "The Root" that he had tagged Crowley as having a biased prejudice disposition. Apparently Gates felt this just because Crowley followed procedure and asked for ID. Yet there is nothing in Crowley's words or actions that indicate this, by police reports, witnesses or Gates himself. Even within Gates' interview one will not find where Crowley said anything racist to Gates. Read the interview and you will realize that Crowley was following proper procedure for a 911 call on a possible break-in. | |
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