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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 8:42:04 AM |
nevertheless it lacks quite a few known facts from the police reports,
various neighborhood witnesses and Professor Gates himself. (from post 867)
This article is not a report--if the reader misses that salient fact, then the entire point Bob Herbert is making, is lost. said by geeleebee
A while back in order not to overload a post with print I condensed a quote using legal format. However the words left out did not change the meaning of the quote. The misquote in this post however does change the meaning of what IS written in post #867. Please note first 3 words of the sentence.
Nicely written editorial, nevertheless it lacks quite a few known facts from the police reports, various neighborhood witnesses and Professor Gates himself. (from 867)
As I said before Professor Gates' friend wrote a nice testimonial editorial, which does not change my opinion on the issue of the thread's topic.
In reference to post 873, Professor Gates stated he felt he was arrested due to being black.
He just presumed that I was guilty, and he presumed that I was guilty because I was black. There was no doubt about that."
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,3
I feel Sgt Crowley did not treat Gates in a racial attitude or manner | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 8:54:32 AM | I pointed out that Bob Herbert and Dr. Gates being friends changes nothing about what Herbert said with regard to racism in America.
His editorial is not a 'testimonial' to Dr. Gates--and the fact that you think it is, validates my suspicion that you missed the point of Herbert's words.
The friendship between Dr. Gates and Bob Herbert, and Herbert's editorial on
racism and its effects are mutually exclusive.
To be clear: I believe that Sgt. Crowley believes that he is not a racist. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 8:58:32 AM | | The fact that Gates and Herbert and friends and much of their life is a cause (not a bad cause) points to the fact that they can both be over-zealous, as a number of people can be when they have a cause. Not every black man is treated poorly just because many are. Not every cop is a racist because some are. Often those who cry racism are racists themselves. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 9:10:30 AM |
The fact that Gates and Herbert and friends and much of their life is a cause (not a bad cause) points to the fact that they can both be over-zealous, as a number of people can be when they have a cause. Not every black man is treated poorly just because many are. Not every cop is a racist because some are. Often those who cry racism are racists themselves.
Who is asserting that every Black man is treated poorly? Who is asserting that every cop is racist?
A fine example of hyperbole.
Being overly zealous is not a 'Black Only' one-way street.
Often those who cry racism are racists themselves.
Statistics? Source? Or, just an opinion? | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 9:20:25 AM |
I feel Sgt Crowley did not treat Gates in a racial attitude or manner
You can feel whatever you want!
Hopefully in the near future, when Sargent Crowley and Professor Gates are able to meet and discuss the events of that day, and they agree to let us know exactly what happened, we will know what transpired then.
For now I will stick to the known facts: Crowley arrested Gates for no good reason, so much so that the Cambridge P.D. Commissioner and the City of Cambridge recommended to the D.A. to dismiss the charges.
You can go around repeating, without really knowing what happened inside that house, that Crowley didn't act this or that way. Gates has said that when Crowley asked him for identification he closed the door and went looking for his wallet in the kitchen and came back to the door to show the ID to Crowley.
What happen after that is still really murky. We have the Crowley report, but we now know that it is suspect because Crowley put in it things that didn't happen.
So, feel as much as you want, but I would be asking questions about what happened inside that house: Why did Gates become so upset? Did Crowley say or do anything to cause Gates' reaction? Did Gates feel disrespected in his own home?, etc...
These questions can be truthfully answered only by Crowley and Gates if they decide to cooperate to help America bridge the racial divide. Anyone else speaking about what happened there in terms of actions not being racially motivated is doing so just to further their agenda. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 9:28:17 AM | geeleebee said
Who is asserting that every Black man is treated poorly?
Actually Gates himself does, one of the people this thread is about.
The point about blacks being treated poorly is brought up frequently in the article "Skip Gates Speaks" in the online magazine "The Root".
The article is an interview with Gates pertaining to his arrest. Since Gates co-founded and is editor in chief of "The Root" I would think that what is in the article is not misquotes or misprints.
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,0 | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 9:44:49 AM |
So, feel as much as you want, but I would be asking questions about what happened inside that house: Why did Gates become so upset? Did Crowley say or do anything to cause Gates' reaction? Did Gates feel disrespected in his own home?, etc...
Well it is a bit conspicuous from Gates' own words "The Root" that he had tagged Crowley as having a biased prejudice disposition.
Apparently Gates felt this just because Crowley followed procedure and asked for ID. Yet there is nothing in Crowley's words or actions that indicate this, by police reports, witnesses or Gates himself.
Even within Gates' interview one will not find where Crowley said anything racist to Gates.
Read the interview and you will realize that Crowley was following proper procedure for a 911 call on a possible break-in. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 10:16:09 AM | How does using an opinion editorial from an admittedly biased source helpful in explaining all this?
Herbert seems to be just one more who feels it is necessary to skew facts and twist reality to his opinions for emphasis and some kind of agenda that people like himself, Gates, Jackson, cling to.
“
Black people need to roar out their anger at such treatment, lift up their voices and demand change. WE Americans did roar and demand change through the years. “They”, Gates, Herbert, and some haven’t changed within themselves.
Anyone counseling a less militant approach is counseling self-defeat It is not self-defeating to become civilized and recognize and co-operate with authority. That does not mean capitulate to offensive and oppressive government. Obviously those like Gates and Herbert are less civilized than they would like others to believe. Does Herbert advocate all black people join the self destructive Black Panthers?
As of mid-2008, there were 4,777 black men imprisoned in America for every 100,000 black men in the population. By comparison, there were only 727 white male inmates per 100,000 white men Where, when one quotes statistics like these, does anyone say the men and women who are incarcerated are innocent? Herbert stops short of that claim for a reason. His point is that black criminals are more likely to be in prison than other criminals. That is ludicrous. Does it not occur to him that a subculture in America contributes to the crime rate because of social associations? When will people, Americans, like Gates and Herbert accept responsibility for their actions instead of switching emphases and blame to that all too convenient (and apparently close to the heart of Obama) race card?
America can reach out it’s hand to all of us as a collection of diverse backgrounds and ethnicity but each individual has to accept it. One can be Caucasian, Negroid or Mongolian or any combination of each and still become social and civilized and a homogeneous culture. Isn’t it time for those like Gates and Herbert to “socially evolve”? Isn’t it time for the rest of us to ignore their misdirections as unjustified? | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 10:24:45 AM | I asked,
Who is asserting that every Black man is treated poorly?
Killene responded,
Actually Gates himself does, one of the people this thread is about.
The truth is this: Henry Gates does not one time in the article from 'Roots' ever declare, aver, avow, assert, or state that 'every Black man is treated poorly'.
This is a quote from the Roots article: Dr. Gates: "...But really it’s not about me—it’s that anybody black can be treated this way, just arbitrarily arrested out of spite. And the man who arrested me did it out of spite, because he knew I was going to file a report because of his behavior..."
Whether or not the arrest was made because of 'spite', we will never know.
There is truth in Gates's saying, " ...that anybody black can be treated this way...".
He does not, however, say that every Black man is treated poorly.
When one tells lies in a debate, one's credibility is totally flushed. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 11:22:09 AM | geeleebee said
When one tells lies in a debate, one's credibility is totally flushed.
Following Gates' last sentence in his interview are a few sentences in context from Gates' interview where he points out his feelings about black peoples' poor treatment in our country. The word "every' is not used. However Gates does point out in the very last sentence that
But the only black people who truly live in a post-racial world in America all live in a very nice house on 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. page 4
He didn’t follow proper police procedure! You can’t just presume I’m guilty and arrest me. He’s supposed to ask me if I need help. He just presumed that I was guilty, and he presumed that I was guilty because I was black. There was no doubt about that .(page 1)
I cried when he was elected, and I cried at his inauguration, but that does not change the percentage of black men in prison, the percentage of black men harassed by racial profiling. It does not change the number of black children living near the poverty line. Which is almost a similar percentage as were under poverty when Martin Luther King was assassinated. There haven’t been fundamental structural changes in America. (page 4)
The above are Gates' own words in regards to the poor treatment of black people. I think that Interpretation of some other parts could probably be construed differently, contingent upon ones viewpoint. By the way this is a 4 page internet magazine article.
http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks?page=0,0 | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 12:02:35 PM |
This is a quote from the Roots article: Dr. Gates: "...But really it’s not about me—it’s that anybody black can be treated this way, just arbitrarily arrested out of spite. And the man who arrested me did it out of spite, because he knew I was going to file a report because of his behavior
So there we have it, in gates own words, he was not arrested due to racism, he was arrested out of spite.
Case closed........ the defense rests. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 12:09:31 PM | Nice try... but a complete strawman, when one can't argue the point, simply invent a point to argue. No one on this thread has said anything close to the position you attempt to attribute.
Try a dose or reality. Good advice, considering the "point" you have tried to make is a fabrication that can't be found in the thread.
If "that one" didn't make stuff up, it wouldn't have anything to say. I suggest ignoring it , as I do.
Who is asserting that every Black man is treated poorly? Killene responded, Actually Gates himself does, one of the people this thread is about. The truth is this: Henry Gates does not one time in the article from 'Roots' ever declare, aver, avow, assert, or state that 'every Black man is treated poorly'. This is a quote from the Roots article: Dr. Gates: "...But really it’s not about me—it’s that anybody black can be treated this way, just arbitrarily arrested out of spite. And the man who arrested me did it out of spite, because he knew I was going to file a report because of his behavior..."
When one tells lies in a debate, one's credibility is totally flushed.
This is the 2nd time she has not told the truth and used the same quote to mislead. Earlier in the thread, she argued that Gates said Crowley arrested him because of race, but she edited the quote to remove the words which proved her wrong.
She is not very good at what she does. It's very transparent. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 12:17:16 PM |
If "that one" didn't make stuff up, it wouldn't have anything to say. I suggest ignoring it , as I do
I am sorry that the facts that I present, the use of your own logic, and my attempts to blunt your bullying are inconvenient for you.
I guess you are still mad because I called you out on your plagiarism in the thread that you started. Shame on you for taking others words and presenting them as your own.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts12791161.aspx
I will thank you not to refer to me as "that one" or "it" or any one of your other demeaning names. I don't think you want to enjoy another forum vacation for that again, do you?
I think you are smart enough to engage in debate without calling names and using bullying techniques. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 12:20:33 PM | Herbert seems to be just one more who feels it is necessary to skew facts and twist reality to his opinions for emphasis and some kind of agenda that people like himself, Gates, Jackson, cling to.
Now isn't that the pot calling the kettle black...
The above are Gates' own words in regards to the poor treatment of black people. I think that Interpretation of some other parts could probably be construed differently, contingent upon ones viewpoint. By the way this is a 4 page internet magazine article.
And where does ANY of that say that every black person is treated poorly?
Once again, your comments dance and spin around the point but don't actually address it in a valid way.
So there we have it, in gates own words, he was not arrested due to racism, he was arrested out of spite.
Case closed........ the defense rests.
Then the defense rests on a losing point.
He clearly states that spiteful arrests of this sort can happen to any black person, because the spite is directed at their being black.
I guess you are still mad because I called you out on your plagiarism in the thread that you started. Shame on you for taking others words and presenting them as your own.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts12791161.aspx
I will thank you not to refer to me as "that one" or "it" or any one of your other demeaning names. I don't think you want to enjoy another forum vacation for that again, do you?
And just as a side note:
Dragging in grudges from other threads and forums can result in the same thing. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 12:38:58 PM |
The above are Gates' own words in regards to the poor treatment of black people. I think that Interpretation of some other parts could probably be construed differently, contingent upon ones viewpoint. By the way this is a 4 page internet magazine article.
I read the four pages of Dr. Gates's interview. I know what he said in that article.
I asked who said that 'every Black man is treated poorly', and the response was,
Actually Gates himself does, one of the people this thread is about.
Actually, Gates did NOT say that every Black man was treated poorly. I am not
'interpreting' anything. I read Dr. Gates's words. I took them at face value. I did not
infer or interpret, or construe.
If you dispute his statement, then support your argument, but do not attribute words to the man that he neither said, nor implied. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 12:59:13 PM |
He clearly states that spiteful arrests of this sort can happen to any black person, because the spite is directed at their being black.
You are inferring too much from that statement and putting things in there that do not exist.
Read the quote again:
it’s that anybody black can be treated this way, just arbitrarily arrested out of spite. And the man who arrested me did it out of spite, because he knew I was going to file a report because of his behavior
Gates says that "anybody black can be treated this way". What he did not say is that "anybody black can be treated this way because they are black". Two vastly different statements with vastly different meanings. The use of the word black in that statement stands alone and is not tied to spite. There is no connection between black and spite in the quote. Had he used "because we are black" or some similar statement to tie black to spite you might have a valid point. But he didn't, so you don't.
What Gates is very clear about is this: And the man who arrested me did it out of spite, because he knew I was going to file a report because of his behavior
He did not say in that quote that the spite is being directed at them being black. You wrongly inferred that.
In Gates own words he was arrested out of spite, not out of racism. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 1:58:28 PM | It is not self-defeating to become civilized and recognize and co-operate with authority. That does not mean capitulate to offensive and oppressive government. Obviously those like Gates and Herbert are less civilized than they would like others to believe. Does Herbert advocate all black people join the self destructive Black Panthers?
You failed to distiguish the difference...when is civilized behaviour warranted and civil disobience allowed? More importantly, how through civilzation does one gain disernable knowledge of the correct application between the two? | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 2:08:23 PM | The use of the word black in that statement stands alone and is not tied to spite.
Then perhaps some further explanation of the rules of English grammar and sentence construction are in order.
The two words do NOT stand alone and separate. They are part of the same sentence connected by a comma. The clause "just arbitraily arrested out of spite" is a dependent clause that clarifies what is meant by "anybody black can be treated this way". It explains just exactly what is meant by "treated this way". It is the same as saying "Anybody black can be arrested out of spite". By including the word "black" the act of being "arrested out of spite" is connected to the condition of being black. If the arrest was only about "spite" and not being black then the sentence would simply say "Anybody can be treated this way, just arbitrarily arrested out of spite".
It's basic English grammar (no inference required, like we say to our students "What it is, is what it does". Its meaning is determined by its function), but you didn't REALLY need me to explain that to you did you?
But really it’s not about me—it’s that anybody black can be treated this way, just arbitrarily arrested out of spite. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 2:29:11 PM | Thanks for the English lesson but I did not need that, or your condescending attitude.
You are inferring a cause and effect relationship between black and spite that does not exist. Spite is not dependent upon Black in the sentence.
Stating that anybody black can be treated that way does not make spite solely belong to black. Had he added the qualifying idea of "because we are black" that would have made spite solely belonging to black.
The statement would need to be modified as follows to say what you are stating:
But really it’s not about me—it’s that anybody black can be treated this way just because we are black, just arbitrarily arrested out of spite.
That gives Gates statement the meaning you are inferring. Without the modifier, the statement says that Gates was arrested out of spite, and that he happens to be black and that anybody black can be treated that way. Nowhere does gates statement ifer the spite was the result of blackness.
Twist it how you want, but in Gates own words he was arrested out of spite. He makes no inference of racism. He clearly says that he was arrested out of spite because he was going to file a report about Crowley's behavior.
And the man who arrested me did it out of spite, because he knew I was going to file a report because of his behavior
That sentence stands on its own.
It amazes me how many people are still crying racism when Gates himself is not.
This thread needs to go away. When we are down to diagramming sentences to try and prove points we sure have discussed everything there is to discuss.
It is clear here that no one on either side of the discussion is going to change their position. What is the point of trying anymore.
A few people are resorting to personal attacks, condescension and name calling to promote their points. That is not conducive to productive debate. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 2:47:56 PM | Points deducted from mungojoe for being condesending.
Extra points given to Optimistically Cynical for getting up from a lucky upper cut by mungojoe and packing a hell of a punch to his skull, sending mungojoe to the ground for the count.
I do believe we have a knockout.
One ... two ... three ... four ... five ... six ...
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 3:07:14 PM |
The statement would need to be modified as follows to say what you are stating:
But really it’s not about me—it’s that anybody black can be treated this way just because we are black, just arbitrarily arrested out of spite.
No it doesn't. When Gates specifically included "black" to modify "anybody" he inherently, by definition, excluded anyone who is not "black". That means, according to basic English, that the phrase "treated this way" was referring specifically to people who are "black". Being "treated this way" is conditional on being "black" because "anybody" refers specifically to being "black".
I've already shown you how "just arbitrarily arrested out of spite" relates to being "treated this way".
Since "being treated this way" is conditional on being "black" and being "treated this way is synonymous with "just being arbitrarily arrested" then being "arbitrarily arrested" is dependent on being "black".
And the man who arrested me did it out of spite, because he knew I was going to file a report because of his behavior
That sentence stands on its own.
No, it doesn't. It is contextualized by the statement which immediately preceded it. These are not just random, disjointed sentences. They did not occur days or miles apart, they are components in what is, essentially, a thesis explaining his perception on that day.
The meaning and intent of "spite" in that particular statement is defined by the earlier statement.
Attempting to remove it from that contextualization is artifice at best and a false attribution fallacy to boot. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 3:17:25 PM | Penalty! Major point reduction for mungojoe for excessive nit-picking.
At this point, all those who read his lenghty post can only be left to utter: What a dork!
Seriously, Optimistically Cynical stated his case. Whether he did it grammatically correct or not is beside the point. Like he said, if this whole debate is coming down to technicalities in English grammar, there is not much left to be said. | |
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| Racism........... Really.
Posted: 8/1/2009 3:36:06 PM |
<div class='quote'>It is not self-defeating to become civilized and recognize and co-operate with authority. That does not mean capitulate to offensive and oppressive government. Obviously those like Gates and Herbert are less civilized than they would like others to believe. Does Herbert advocate all black people join the self destructive Black Panthers?
You failed to distiguish the difference...when is civilized behaviour warranted and civil disobience allowed? More importantly, how through civilzation does one gain disernable knowledge of the correct application between the two?SAguy, civil disobedience is called upon when obvious and blatant injustices are the tools of authority. Gandhi used it, Martin King used it, and groups of civilians have used it to their benefit.
In this incident, had Gates really been abused as he claimed, then he could have used it. Instead he seems to have felt immune to authority for his own prejudices and perceptions and got himself arrested for disorderly conduct for unlawful actions. Anyone could debate that all they want, but he was indeed arrested, and the charges being dropped doesn’t change any of that. We’ve learned a lot about him from the information as a result of this incident that would otherwise gone unnoticed. He is a big fish in his little pond and is insignificant to the big picture concerning race relations.
When is civil disobedience allowed? Never. But it is demanded at appropriate times and the nature of civilized resistance can affects change. When it becomes apparent that civil disobedience will not work then we progress to violent revolution which is how you and I can call ourselves Americans instead of subjects to the Queen.
We’ve paid our dues in the violent transformation of a racial disparagement within our country with blood, sweat tears and lives. People like Gates can’t get their minds around that and can’t productively support our continuing progress. They can’t get around their own feelings of inferiority to accept their place in today’s enlightened civilization.
One should never become complacent to the conditions of government or to give up rights of voicing opinions against injustice. Some across America contend that Gates did just that, but others, such as myself recognize his actions as disorderly conduct without provocation. Did he learn from this “teaching” moment? I doubt it.
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