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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/9/2005 10:48:08 AM | @ Stealth
Cult = 1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion
Based upon these definations, you seemed to have missed one of the biggest ones in the US..............Christianity.
Because a belief system varies from your own does not make it a Cult. | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/9/2005 11:26:20 AM | Just semantics, dictionary definitions number two. You are referring to one semantic meaning of the word "cult" abd U am referring to the other. I know what the meaning of a cult is. I am talking about FALSE cults, as opposed to orthodox Christianity
Branch Davidians and David Koresh is a cult, although I don't agree with the government burning them all down and sending tanks in. I think I should have been handled more peacably.
People in cults are brainwashed, just like Mormons. Jehovah Witness is brainwashed, I have heard it all, they have come out to the house. With cults, a lot of times, a deprogrammer has to get ahold of a cult member and deprogram them in order to get them out of the cult. | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/9/2005 1:45:56 PM | | I will make you laugh i use to have the jw's come to my home alot till i asked them to leave me alone . a few weeks later they came back to talk to me they want me to find god I said no. I told them please i believe in god but the devil lives in my house. they look at me like i was nuts. then here comes the devil my shepard she almost made the fence. they came back lol | |
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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 105 | |
| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/9/2005 3:09:13 PM | I kinda hoped this thread would die...
It’s not assault, since it’s not a threat of bodily harm... but it’s not polite! Unwelcomed physical contact of any kind is assault. The law is pretty black and white on this.
And why should you have to do anything? It’s your house. That's why they knock.
You are entitled to privacy. Knocking on your door is not an invasion of your privacy.
If you’ve made even the slightest reference to that fact that you’re not interested or don’t wish to discuss it, that should be respected... and will be, by honestly caring human beings. Rebuttals are used by everyone in every line of work, and it is an accepted form of continuing a sale, or preaching religion.
Even God did not force his thinking on those who simply didn’t want to listen. No, he killed them instead. Remember the flood? He also states in the bible for his disciples and followers to go forth and be witnesses to his word, teaching people to become dedicated followers of God.
It is not easy to say, “Thank you, but I’m not interested.” and have them simply wish you a good day and leave. It's a rebuttal; completely acceptable behaviour.
I suspect they are actually trained, like salespeople, in how to overcome objections. You didn't read the rest of the thread. They are schooled, yes.
Besides, if JWs actually talked about peace and love at our doors, people would probably feel a whole lot better about the whole thing. If you actually stopped and listened, you would realize that is what they are doing.
They are outside orthodox Christian beliefs. What part of the JW's are outside of orthodox beliefs? They follow the bible a lot more closely than any other religion does. Go into a church someday, you'll see images and idols all over the place...God forbids this. You'll see people venerating themselves to men and Mary...God forbids this. You'll see people using the church to play bingo...Jesus chased gamblers out of the temple with a whip! The JW's do NONE of these actions. | |
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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 106 | |
| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/9/2005 3:28:21 PM | drbinhb: Thank you for that post regarding cults.
Stealth: The semactics would be extremely important to you if they were in your favour, wouldn't they? False cults? I've never heard that term before...I think you're the first human alive to use it.
Jehovah Witness is brainwashed, I have heard it all, they have come out to the house. With cults, a lot of times, a deprogrammer has to get ahold of a cult member and deprogram them in order to get them out of the cult. What the hell are you talking about?!? The JW's are NOT brainwashed!! Where do you get your information? They attend services three times a week, and go door-to-door preaching the word of God...how is this brainwashing? It's called dedication. I assume because you don't see them out clubbing and getting drunk every weekend or something, that you think they're not normal? How about law-abiding citizens? No brainwashing...that's nonsense.
inoutunderandover: I don't understand people that think the JW's get spooked by someone who says the devil is in their house...they hear it almost every time they go out knocking on doors. It's not original, it's been overdone, they don't give people funny looks for it, they don't even humour the idea. They have no fear of the devil, and if you did have the devil in your house...they would only approach you ten times as much to help you.
To be honest, some even write down a little space at the bottom of their track sheet for the amount of times people try to pass as being satanists, satan, witches, posessed, or demonic in any way. It's actually found quite humourous by most, that people really think the JW's even believe any of it.
Basically; when they got back to the car, they laughed at you. | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/9/2005 4:23:35 PM | | Okay, if you read back to the earlier posts, Jehovah Witnesses is a classical cult started by a man named Russell, who predicted definite dates for the coming of the Lord, which is not biblical for anyone to do so. JW is not a Christian religion. They don't base their religion on Christ. They have a series of bogus doctrines which they base their religion on. None of their beliefs is even logical, like they think they can only call the name of God "Jehovah" which is not the name of God at all-----Jehovah is just the English rendering of the Hebrew word for God, YHWH, which is a romanized form of the four Hebrew letters for God. There were other names of God, like El and Elohim and others. JW is too uneducated to even realize simple Bible scholarship. | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/9/2005 5:12:55 PM |
-----Jehovah is just the English rendering of the Hebrew word for God, YHWH, which is a romanized form of the four Hebrew letters for God. There were other names of God, like El and Elohim and others. JW is too uneducated to even realize simple Bible scholarship.
This is a correct statement. The JW's put allot of significance on the name Jehovah, choosing to use it as apposed to the 'Good News Bible' and others. I was told by an Elder that they are the only one's to use it, which is a BIG lie... I looked up many Bibles that use it, not just the 'New World Translation of The Holy Scriptures.' I heard so many contradictions from them it made me sick. They are also a 'closed religion' that will disown members of their own family in order to keep the faith. I have personal experience of this. They work against the law, have no political involvement and are non patriotic. I don't see a problem with the last two points but undermining law is not on, i.e. they will not come forward with information about a crime that has been perpetrated by a member of the congregation unless two of their own have witnessed the crime. They keep records of their members withheld from the authorities in their New York Bethel building. For those of you that still don't think they are a cult I suggest you think again. | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/9/2005 5:28:05 PM | Interesting info, skypoetone. I know people have been debating what constitutes a cult. IMO, a cult harbors many secrets that only the elders or whatever have knowledge of. They tend to be exclusive and secretive. The world's major religions, in contrast, have an open door policy to outsiders. However, people will probably still take issue with this view!  | |
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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 111 | |
| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/9/2005 6:15:14 PM |
Okay, if you read back to the earlier posts, Jehovah Witnesses is a classical cult started by a man named Russell, Charles Taze Russell founded the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, not the Jehovah's Witnesses.
...who predicted definite dates for the coming of the Lord, which is not biblical for anyone to do so. He didn't predict anything, he took direct prophecies from the bible and explained them. The accounts that he mentioned were all about 1914, and they all came true.
JW is not a Christian religion. They don't base their religion on Christ. That is not true, the entire religion is based on the teachings of God and the example led by Jesus Christ. They even have multiple books about Jesus and his life on Earth as a man. Where do you get your information?!?
They have a series of bogus doctrines which they base their religion on. The bible is bogus? ALL of their teachings are direct from the bible...no other source.
None of their beliefs is even logical, like they think they can only call the name of God "Jehovah" which is not the name of God at all Religious scholars have agreed that God's true name is Jehovah, and have agreed upon this for centuries. Jehovah's Witnesses didn't just make this up you know.
JW is too uneducated to even realize simple Bible scholarship. What do you base this on? I'm sure you have some kind of proof...no you don't.
I was told by an Elder that they are the only one's to use it, The elder may have said they are the only ones who use it, but he wouldn't have said they are the only ones who can use it. When was the last time you heard a priest say the name Jehovah?
They work against the law, have no political involvement and are non patriotic. They DO NOT work against the law in any way. That is complete bunk. And as far as harbouring secrets in Bethel; where do you get this information from?!?! Bethel is not a secret society or anything, and they most certainly do not keep records of the members like you say. The only thing they keep record of is who has been disciplined and in what manner, as well as baptismal records. All churches do this. It's common protocol.
they will not come forward with information about a crime that has been perpetrated by a member of the congregation unless two of their own have witnessed the crime. Are you just making this stuff up as you go along? They do not tolerate law-breakers, and will turn them in to the police. | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/9/2005 6:32:58 PM | As I have said before, some of the Jehovah's Witnesses are and were the nearest and dearest people to me. My concern is not that they are JW's but what the JW's stand for or more to the point, what they don't stand for. The following details are accurate accounts, not written by me but by people with first-hand, verified, knowledge:
I have found that many do not believe that there is an inherent problem with child molestation among Jehovah's Witnesses. The reason might be based on the fundamental make up of the Watchtower Organization and the small amount of information that brothers and sisters on the inside as well as those who are not witnesses on the outside are actually given thus making it difficult to understand the nature or extent of this problem. I wish to try and explain the mechanics of why this problem is real and of horrific proportion within the Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. I also want many to understand unless decisive action is taken, child molesters will continue to be protected and children will continue to be hurt. The explanation for the reasons I feel the Watchtower has moral and ethical problems when dealing with child molesters is as follows:
• Closed society. The Watchtower Organization is a closed society that thinks everyone outside the organization is a part of Satan's world. Satan's world will be destroyed when the Day of Judgment comes and this includes everyone who does not become a Jehovah's Witness. The basis for this teaching is found in scriptures like 1 John 5:19 that states, "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." This reinforces the JW mentality that anytime you go outside the organization, the help you obtain is being guided ultimately by Satan and you should be distrustful of what they offer in any way. One letter to Body Of Elders dated 1992 states that therapy could be sought for molestation victims if it was "in harmony with bible principles." How often can you approach a therapist and demand that any guidance given must be offered in complete harmony with the way Jehovah's Witnesses believe the bible? This effectively does away with any therapist unless they happen to be a Jehovah's Witness. Articles in the Watchtower and Awake continually reinforce the, "us" against them mentality. The June 1, 2001 issue of the Watchtower has this statement on page 16: "Is it presumptuous of Jehovah's Witnesses to point out that they alone have God's backing? Actually, no more so than when the Israelites in Egypt claimed to have God's backing in spite of the Egyptians' belief, or when the first-century Christians claimed to have God's backing to the exclusion of Jewish religionists." The point made? If you go anywhere else you will not have God's backing. It is very understandable to see why Witnesses rarely seek help in the way of therapy or have apprehension in going to the police when molestation issues arise.
• Elder authority. The elders are pointed to as being shepherds of the flock. The flock being everyone not an elder in the congregation. This thought is repeated time and again in all writings of the Watchtower Organization. Nothing outside the shepherd arrangement is pointed to as a source that could override in anyway counsel an elder gives as direction. What an elder says is considered the final authority. If you were to go against an elder's direction it could be considered apostasy. Example: An elder advises you not to go to a certain therapist, if you choose to disobey, you could be placed under sanction. This means you would be considered a bad example. A "bad example" cannot auxiliary pioneer, have a demonstration part on the meeting. This in turn makes a statement to the congregation that you are a problem and some may choose to limit any association with you outside of meetings and field service. At this point, if you in anyway rebelled against this sanction and talked to others about it being unfair, you would be offered counsel to "shut up" with scriptures being offered on being submissive to theocratic arrangement. If this "counsel" was not followed and the elders had to meet with you on three occasions with this same counsel, without the proper response, you could then be "marked." "Marked" means you would be informed that a warning talk would be given about your actions to the congregation. While your name would not be mentioned, the actions would, and anyone who knew of these actions could not associate with you unless you were at the meeting or out in the field ministry. If you continued to speak against the counsel offered by the elders, a judicial committee will be convened and the charge would be "loose conduct." Definition? "A gross disregard of theocratic order." Causing "divisions" in the congregation could be another charge. At this hearing you must apologize and say you would never do this again or you will be disfellowshipped. To be disfellowshipped is compared to stoning in ancient times. For all practical purposes you are considered dead in symbolic terms. Unless you repent and are reinstated no Jehovah's Witness will speak to you, or have anything to do with you unless it is some sort of emergency. When you attend a meeting no one will acknowledge your presence. You may only speak to elders when a question arises. You are expected to arrive just as the meeting starts and leave as soon as it is over. If a person chooses to arrive early and leave late after meetings, this could cause them to not be reinstated, thus prolonging their disfellowshipment due to a bad attitude. Unwritten Watchtower guidelines say that at least one year must pass before a Disfelowshipped person can be reinstated. This of course is at the discretion of the elders who served on the disfellowshipping committee. Even if you move the original committee have final say on your reinstatement. Disfellowshipment destroys family interaction outside the church. Any association must only be necessary business or your family will be considered a bad example. What happens to a bad example? See above. This example offers the classic way it works for anyone who disobeys an elder and the direction he offers.
• Masculine dominated society. Women are in submission and follow the direction of men within the organization. They have a limited role in teaching from the platform. The only assignment a sister can have is to be a pioneer. A pioneer puts a set number of hours in the field ministry. Women are generally forbidden from doing any administrative work unless there are no men available to do so. In the simple meeting for field service if no brother is available, a sister must wear a head covering to acknowledge headship. Recent guidelines state a mother must wear a head covering in front of her baptized son if she performs any duties that typically men perform relating to worship. Sisters are taught to be submissive from birth and never question or in anyway rebel against the direction of brothers in the congregation. Any questions a sister may have is to be directed to her husband if she needs an answer, if she does not have a Christian husband or is single, she may respectfully approach an elder for direction. If a sister did not follow this protocol or was found to be disrespectful, she could be labelled as a "jezebel influence" and then ultimately be disfellowshipped for not submitting to headship, which is termed theocratic arrangement.
• Home office detachment. The headquarters of the Watchtower is a closed environment made up of policy makers who are older men who by and large have never had children. They live an institutional life. As a general rule, they do not cook, clean, pay taxes, drive cars, or have an understanding of life outside an institutional setting. It is difficult for them to comprehend the problems that many face on a day-to-day basis. The attitude is generally to maintain the "status quo" and not make sweeping changes or minor adjustments unless forced to do so when it weighs to their advantage. The attitude is, "if it is not broke don't fix it" and if it is broke we do not want to know about it. The result is often good decisions are distorted and applied in areas that do not fit. Example: The principle of "two witnesses". This is basically a good idea in areas of fraud or false accusation when it comes to a slip of the tongue. It also fits in matters relating to adults who may commit moral sins, preventing accusations being made unless the accuser can back it up. When this matter is stretched to include matters relating to children, it doesn't work. When children are molested there are never two witnesses. The misapplication of this scripture gives the paedophile an opportunity to lie and use this to his/her advantage. Children are revictimized when the elders demand two witnesses as proof of what happened. The victim in effect is called a liar as no action is taken, which actually would be the same result if the child had made up the accusation. This distortion has caused much suffering to molested children who have asked the Governing Body for help. The Governing Body has turned a deaf ear, placing a greater emphasis on maintaining the "status quo" rather than rocking the boat by making an adjustment to protect children. If confronted the Watchtower says it is the parent's job to protect children. In light of the above matters discussed it is passing the buck on a problem the Governing Body has caused by not taking decisive action.
I believe the closed society, elder authority, masculine dominated society, and home office detachment, all together lay the foundation for a paedophile paradise within the organization. It is my opinion we have a much higher ratio of child molestation than any mainstream religion. The basis for this conclusion is the internal rules and the environment created in the Organization that allow the paedophile to remain anonymous, thus bringing other possible victims into harms way. The following issues and internal rules are listed:
• No publisher can say negative things about another publisher to anyone. If a publisher has a problem with someone the publisher is instructed to either forget it or approach the offender and attempt to settle the matter. If after two to three attempts with no resolution, the matter is then taken to the elders who will have the final say in the matter. If this guideline is not followed the publisher can be disfellowshipped for malicious gossip.
• If a child is molested the above guideline forces that no one tells who the paedophile is. They are not allowed to discuss this with anyone, even members of their immediate family or other congregation members whose children may be in danger, no one in the congregation can be informed who molested the child.
• Elders are instructed to maintain absolute confidentiality with any judicial matter. Infractions that violate biblical law are recorded within the confidential file for that congregation. In the event a person is disfellowshipped, a complete report is sent to home office where a second record of the infraction is maintained. If a person commits a crime, copious records are placed within the local congregation file and then a full report will be maintained indefinitely at the WT Legal Dept. The congregation confidential files and the files of Watchtower Legal Dept. contain thousands of crimes that have never been reported to police and never will be because "ecclesial privilege" will be used as a basis to hide criminals from justice. These "files" allow thousands of child molesters to escape prosecution. Elders are forbidden to tell anyone of a confessed paedophile who attends the local congregation. Only at the advice of Watchtower Legal will elders even suggest to parents a child molester be reported to the police. At the congregation level the only action that can be taken with a confessed child molester is a "local needs" part that would state to watch your children, but nothing would be directly stated that a paedophile was actually in the congregation. Another action could be for the elders to have a meeting with the paedophile and tell him/her they would monitor their conduct around children. He/she cannot have children at their home for sleepovers nor hold them in their lap or work alone with children in the field ministry. The elders generally have contact at meetings and in the field ministry. The rest of the time the paedophile has the freedom to monitor his/her self. An interesting footnote is the addition of a new policy in May of 2002, that is a confessed child molester cannot work alone in the door-to-door ministry. This was unstated in any writing or instruction before May of 2002. At that time NBC's Dateline did a story about child molesters going door to door at which Watchtower spokesman mislead media to believe this was a long standing policy. On this website is a internal congregation letter written on the "WT information" page in which an elder was removed for being a confessed child molester, after giving several instances of how this person was to be treated in the congregation, not one word is stated about working alone in the door to door work. We would encourage media or any long time member to produce any written material that could prove this policy went into effect before May 2002. If not then a thank you note should be sent for silent lambs for causing this policy to go into effect.
• There are three actual disciplines a confessed paedophile could experience in the congregation.
• The "sudden death" for privileges. A directive that came about with the Jan 1, 1997, Watchtower. You basically cannot have any position of responsibility within the congregation.
• The judicial committee, which has the authority to disfellowship only if the paedophile is considered to be unrepentant. Guilt is established by a confession or by the mouth of two witnesses.
• If you reside in a reporting state and a minor claims to be molested the elders could see to it you are reported to the police.
• One, two, or all three of these directives may be followed, which are determined by local elders, WT Service Department and the WT Legal Department.
• If a person is accused of being a paedophile, and they deny the charge, they are considered innocent until proven guilty. This works to the paedophile’s advantage, as the requirement for two witnesses means to the same event, not two separate occasions. Watchtower PR has stated to media they will now take witnesses to separate incidents and take action in the congregation. This again works to a child molester’s advantage in that seldom will successive children report being molested. The result? Often numerous children will be molested before a "second witness" to "separate incident" might come forward. Numerous reports from abuse survivors in the organization indicate the "separate second eye witness" was seldom if ever honoured in the event they came forward. Again this became a policy instituted when silent lambs pressed the issue on child abuse. Generally speaking in the unusual event a paedophile was accused by two children in the same week, it might be considered as a basis for a judicial committee but anything outside of this in the face of a denial will allow the accused paedophile to remain an innocent man. ( 11/15/95 WT) There is a mention by JR Brown of WT PR, of corroborating evidence in addition to one witness. This is a clever misrepresentation to make it appear that often action will be taken on the basis of one witness testimony. What is corroborating evidence of child molestation? Example: pictures/video, pregnancy, or DNA evidence. How often do these things come to bear in a case of child molestation? Very seldom if ever. We invite Watchtower to produce one case involving child molestation in which congregational action was taken with one witness and "corroborating evidence."
• The victim is placed in a very negative environment to come forward and relate what happened. The victim is summoned to the back room of the Kingdom Hall and they sit in a room with three to four elders who fire questions about every detail that happened. Where were you touched? How many times? What were the dates of the molestation? What room of the house were you in? What did you not tell anyone sooner? Did you participate in the act of molestation? Did you enjoy the experience? Why did you not cry out or tell the molester to stop? What type of clothes were you wearing? Did you experience orgasm? These questions are based on testimony given by molested children when they were 4-8 years of age. There have been cases where the paedophile denies the charges and then the victim faces a judicial hearing for confessing to participating in a sexual experience. As recently as December of 2002 victims have even been disfellowshipped for coming forward and confessing to multiple sexual acts and the molester will be protected as an innocent man if he denies the allegations. The elders have zero training on how to conduct a rape investigation and by their misguided efforts taint a legitimate police investigation if it ever gats to that stage, by traumatizing the child and informing the molester of the child's testimony.
• The parents of a victim are required to follow the direction of the elders and trust their judgment of the matter. The "reproach" of the congregation is turned into "reproach" on God and provides the basis to keep parents from going to the outside for assistance. In the event a parent chooses to go to police, they are often advised to not disclose what religion they are so as to not bring "reproach" on God's name. This can cause difficulty for police investigations by not having complete information the elders have advised them to withhold. The congregation will be advised the alleged molester is innocent by their investigation and members will impede a police investigation to protect a person the elders have deemed innocent.
• A confessed or convicted paedophile is allowed anonymity within the Watchtower Organization. When they move a letter will follow to the new congregation. Only the elders are privy to this information. No one within the congregation would be informed of the paedophile’s presence. Even the wives of the elders are not to be given this information. This can be a real danger for children. Example: There have been occasions when elders purposely withheld their children from being around "known" paedophiles while other unknowing publishers in the same congregation have had their children molested because of not being informed of the paedophiles past. There have been occasions where a molester started a bible study with people that have shown interest in religion and then molested their children. There is currently no policy that prevents a Jehovah's Witness child molester from studying the bible with people they contact in the door-to-door work that may have children.
• An accused paedophile is allowed to move anywhere with no letter to follow. He is viewed as an innocent man with no one being allowed to warn others of the accusations against him. He can serve as an elder or have any privilege in the congregation even if convicted by a court of law. If any member disagrees with this policy they can be deemed "causing divisions," see above….
• A convicted or accused paedophile is allowed to go door to door alone and with sisters in the field ministry. He is free to have children in the car. This includes the children he/she may meet at the door, the yard, or anywhere else he/she may travel in the witness work. A person will never know if the Jehovah's Witness who stops at their door is an accused or convicted paedophile or not. The primary purpose of witnessing is to start home bible studies, if an accused or convicted paedophile starts a study with a family who has children, no directive is offered on protocol of how this is to be handled. They are deemed to be innocent by current policy based on elder determination. In addition, it is common for those who participate in witnessing to take a coffee break mid-morning. Children are nearly always present unknowing who they on "break" with. Again no directives are offered.
• At Circuit Assemblies and District Conventions convicted, confessed and accused paedophiles are allowed to mingle freely with no monitoring among literally hundreds of children. There are no directives offered in a Convention setting. In addition, most motels are filled with unknowing JW families who are never informed of a paedophiles presence in the motel where they are staying with no directives to monitor the paedophile in this setting. These represent areas where no policy exists currently.
• Quick/Build, a large gathering of witnesses from all over the state to build a new Kingdom Hall in four days. An accused /convicted paedophile is free to be used in this program. They will be exposed to many children from all over the state who again have no knowledge that they are around a possible sex offender. No directives are offered. Confessed paedophiles are not allowed to work in the Quick/Build arrangement.
• Elders have absolutely no training on guidance, therapy or counselling when it comes to child molestation issues. The 1994 Elders School specifically advised against getting training on counselling or therapy for mental health issues stating, "we are spiritual shepherds only." The admonition was to listen, read a scripture, and say a prayer and that should be sufficient. The attitude was, some things will not be solved till the "new order" and persons with difficulty should learn to endure. The way troubled victims were advised to cope was to read the bible, pray, be regular at church meetings and participate more in the field ministry.
• When victims are not treated and then act out their anger by self-destructive behaviours
the elders move quickly to establish judicial committees to disfellowship a person who contaminates the congregation by wrong conduct. The victim is then victimized again, ostracized by family and every friend they have ever known within the closed environment all Jehovah's Witnesses are associated with.
All these things together contribute to the reason I believe there is a paedophile paradise within the Watchtower Organization. We recruit troubled persons to be members and accept them in with no questions asked. A paedophile that becomes a witness will be able to move about freely with the benefit of his past being buried with no one knowing. If the paedophile then starts to molest Jehovah's Witness children who are taught to submit completely to adult authority, the children are easily intimidated to not say anything for years. If any do come forward, the paedophile simply denies the charge and remains "innocent" from the congregation's standpoint. Should things become uncomfortable for the paedophile, they can simply move and start all over again with a fresh batch of children. Witnesses have absolute trust in one another; it is called a "spiritual paradise" in a wicked world. Their children are only allowed to associate with one another. A gathering will only have Jehovah's Witnesses in guidance. Any extra circular activity will only feature Jehovah's Witnesses with each other. The typical paedophile will invariably have ample opportunity to take advantage of the trust of unknowing fellow members. The above stated issues raises the following questions:
Do other churches operate like this?
Do other church members have the shepherd dominated mentality JW's have?
Do other churches allow sex offenders complete anonymity within the church when it is discovered?
Do other churches advise that the minister has the last word when molestation issues arise?
Do other churches lead members to believe their investigatorial measures are the best way to determine if a person has committed a crime?
Do other churches advise the best way to help a troubled person is to tell them to endure and wait for God's Kingdom to solve their problems?
Do other churches take a person who is troubled because of molestation, who has begun self-destructive behaviours and disfellowship them, ostracizing them from the
people who would be in the best position to help them?
Do other churches require two witnesses to the actual event of molestation before taking any disciplinary measures?
Do other churches threaten parents of molested children with disfellowshipment if they try to warn other members whose children may be in danger?
Do other churches remove ministers who warn parents of the danger of a certain paedophile molesting their children?
Do other churches disfellowship members that speak out to protect children from child molesters?
Do other churches provide zero training when it comes to how to direct a molested child to get the help they need?
In answering the above questions, if you feel there is no difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and how other churches handle these matters then we could be considered to have a similar ratio of child molestations to other churches. If on the other hand, you see a difference, then you have to accept a much higher ratio of child molestation among Jehovah's Witnesses than mainstream Christianity. It is morally and ethically wrong to perpetrate a "Policy" that hurts children. After reviewing the material above I hope this can help you to be better informed, educated as to the nature of the problem, and see the need to require the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society to rethink this issue, to change their policy and realize that protecting children is the highest priority in an Organization that wants to lead people to worship God. | |
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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 113 | |
| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/9/2005 7:33:41 PM |
The headquarters of the Watchtower is a closed environment made up of policy makers who are older men who by and large have never had children. They live an institutional life. As a general rule, they do not cook, clean, pay taxes, drive cars, or have an understanding of life outside an institutional setting. It is difficult for them to comprehend the problems that many face on a day-to-day basis. Closed environment yes. Everything else; no. GO there, take a tour. Taxes are most certainly paid, as the bible does state to "pay Caesers things to Caeser..." etc, etc.
As for the pedophilia issue, they do not purposely withold information like that. There was a case in New Brunswick where a JW was accused of child abuse, and after the child went to his parents, they called the police, and then the elders...who had to wait until the court found him guilty before they disfellowshipped him immediately. They made sure everyone knew who he was, as well.
I can't get into any further discussion about child abuse issues because of my work, but the JW's are against it, and do not harbour criminals of any sort. | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/9/2005 11:51:23 PM |
I kinda hoped this thread would die... Then why perpetuate it?
That's why they knock. You missed the point. The discussion went way beyond the knock.
Knocking on your door is not an invasion of your privacy. See above.
Rebuttals are used by everyone in every line of work, and it is an accepted form of continuing a sale, or preaching religion. A rebuttal is the act of refuting, by offering a contrary contention or argument. If we didn’t extend an invitation, and have made it plain we don’t wish to discuss anything, this is hardly a matter of rebuttal. Besides, to whom is this an accepted form... to the religious and to salespeople? That’s like saying the Bible is the word of God because it says so in the Bible. I consider it entirely unacceptable to have to work at getting someone to leave, when I didn't want them there in the first place.
He (God) also states in the bible for his disciples and followers to go forth and be witnesses to his word, teaching people to become dedicated followers of God. And there are hundreds of approaches to this, beyond badgering and intimidating people.
You didn't read the rest of the thread. They are schooled, yes. I read the entire thread. There was some debate over what they are schooled in.
If you actually stopped and listened, you would realize that is what they are doing.(discussing love and peace) I have spent many interesting hours with JWs in my home, and bear them no malice whatever. Yet not once did I ever experience the conversation veering toward these simple and fundamental Christian concepts. It was always an attempt to proselytize. As a matter of fact, I happen to respect their views on some things, and I too admire their zeal... which does not diminish the fact that they’re as bad as fundamentalist Christians for beating you over the head with their Bible... which is what started this thread. | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/10/2005 8:14:35 AM | Garf:
With respect you offer little refutation, given the points I made. I would say 95% of the summary I supplied is correct. You are, of course, entitled to your opinions as we all are. I do not believe, given my life-long (personal) experience of JW's, that what you say about withholding information from the police is acceptable. However, on the point of taxes I do accept that you are correct in your assessment. | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/10/2005 11:40:07 AM | | Garf. I encourage you to read probably more than 30 books have been written about JW being a false cult. You seem to come from a different perspective. The evidence is so overwhelming and I have investigated it personally and read a lot about it. It is so obviously bogus ever since Mr. Russell came up with this system of belief. | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/10/2005 3:17:32 PM | skypoetone, wow... where did you get that summary from? I heard that it is very tough being a child in that church (no birthday celebrations, holidays, etc.), but I definitely didn't know pediphelia (sp?) was a problem! All we hear about is the Catholic church on that one.
The most sobering thing here, to me, is that JW's are known for following THEIR interpretation of THEIR translation of the Bible VERY closely! | |
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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 118 | |
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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 120 | |
| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/11/2005 9:03:35 PM | Stealth: Russell did NOT come up with the religion; he came up with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. The religion was formed years later, and did not involve Russell at all.
Stealth: DO you know first hand knowledge of the JWs or just the biased hearsay of the propaganda that is written about them by people who are only trying to drag them through the dirt?
Stealth: DO you have the eighteen years personal experience with the JWs that I do?
Once again: Read my first few posts. I no longer have the beliefs of the JWs, nor am I a practicing JW. I do have extensive understanding of the religion in all it's aspects. I am merely explaining fact, not my opinion. | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/12/2005 1:23:08 AM | Wow...
I rarely post in these religious forums because, frankly, no one will listen to what anyone else has to say. And, to be honest, I only skimmed over this last page out of curiousity.
I've had JW's show up at my home often. But I've never once had one become pushy. I've never had one be anything but polite and curteous. I generally will let them know (also politely) that I'm not interested in changing religions, offer them a glass of water or lemonade, and send them on their way. But never once, have I had one of them get pushy.
On the other hand, I've gone on splits with the sister missionaries before and done some tract work (the house to house bit) and have had some interesting experiences there. We're also taught not to be rude or pushy. If a person says they're not interested, we move on. Slamming the door in our face was a rudeness I had to deal with many many times, but most of the world is filled with rude people, so you can't take it personally.
What gets me are the people who claim to have all sorts of knowledge on these different religions when in reality they don't. It's so easy to claim "brainwashing" and "cult" about pretty much anything you don't believe in.
If you're Christian (and I don't care which denomination), would Jesus Christ pull this kind of crap against other religions? No! He cared for everybody regardless of whether they believed in Him or not! He didn't name call, slander, or downtalk anybody, even after being tortured and nailed to the cross. Are you people who slander like this more knowledgable and equipped to judge than Christ?
Then cut it out. | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/12/2005 4:45:32 AM | | But you all have to remember one thing. That Jesus Chirst did not write everyones bible man did So it is not all true . Not one soul has the truth. Every religion has it own story. Now years age there was one church and one religion. Every one went to pray to God. And yes some jw are pushy. You tell then your not interested and they keep coming back. So now i just put a sign on my door if you like to talk religion please go to back door. must go thru my dog the devil. I just hate went they come and preach. In toms river we have now have do not knock law. best think that has happen to keep all of them away. | |
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Garf
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Joined: 4/4/2005
Msg: 124 | |
| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/12/2005 7:08:07 PM | They just want money to keep their congregation going. Geez money is power. WHAT?!?
They don't charge for their magazines, and only accept contributions if the person offers. They don't ask for money, and don't do fundraisers. Ever.
Their rent and bills for the Kingdom Halls are paid for by volunteered contributions by its' members, not solicited funds in any way.
Poet, I'm sure you'll back me up on this at least?
And Norolim; Thank you for that insight. Your words are noted on any thread you post on, regardless whether or not people respond. Keep posting with assertiveness, and you'll have fun on the forums. No flaming like me. lol | |
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| question: why do jehova's witness's seem to be so pushy not judging just a question
Posted: 9/12/2005 7:15:58 PM | "If you're Christian (and I don't care which denomination), would Jesus Christ pull this kind of crap against other religions? No! He cared for everybody regardless of whether they believed in Him or not! He didn't name call, slander, or downtalk anybody, even after being tortured and nailed to the cross. Are you people who slander like this more knowledgable and equipped to judge than Christ?
Then cut it out." (quote from Norolim)
------------Would Jesus condemn the heretics-----YES. He did it numerous times in the gospels when he came down on the Pharisees, who were the most religious people of that time. He knew the Pharisees were extremely religious, but their hearts were far from God. | |
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