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| HST!
Posted: 7/24/2009 10:06:05 AM |
The point is that you (as a business) are NOT paying GST or HST. You account for it all separately, add up GST collected and subtract GST paid then mail the difference to the government once every year or quarter or month. In between remittances you have paid GST/HST for your expenses but you've also collected more than that on your sales. What you describe with markup is the way things work with PST. GST/HST, on the other hand, takes all the sales tax accounting off of your books[quote/]
I understand about the GST it is the additional 7% (PST) that I am talking about that is getting charged everytime a product changes hands before it gets to the consumer. With the HST (in my mind anyways) everytime someone purchases the product to resell his "cost of goods" is up 7% (PST portion of the HST) more than it would have been the way we do things now. From mfg to consumer some products change hands more than 3 times before reaching the consumer. | |
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Posted: 7/24/2009 12:00:35 PM | The "businesses" in question are not faceless evil foreigners in grey suits. They are your neighbours, and probably at least 4 or 5 regular posters in this forum. We pay the same personal taxes you do, including HST. The difference with this is that now we're not paying extra compared to everybody else. <\quote> --> Here personal tax rates are getting compared with business tax rates. A Business has the ability to write off expenses, individuals do not, so if you have a business you already have the benefit of claiming less income as taxable income than an individual does. If you own the business and it's incorporated, you have the possiblity of giving yourself dividends which are taxed lower than income. There are many ways to figure out how to get out of paying taxes or writing things off to reduce your taxes if you have your own business. This alone makes the argument of the comparison of tax rates between indivdual and businesses invalid. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all write off the cost of using our cars to get to work? How about writing off the interest for our mortgages since we need to have a place to live, or how about our rent? I know this is probably going to be viewed as a ridicules argument, but in my view it is just as valid as claiming that Business should be entitiled to the same lower tax rates as individuals, without giving individuals the ability to write off these sort of things as well. ***************************************************************************** Over a million people in BC run or work in small businesses, and they're probably the ones who'll benefit most.<\quote> --> Yes I agree those businesses will likely benefit the most. **************************************************************************** For me it's a couple of hundred bucks a year tops. <\quote>
--> Fine that is good for an individual, but do you have a family? Families are going to be hit much harder than a single person.
****************************************************************************
I still fail to see how giving individuals less spending power, by charging higher taxes, will help to stimulate the economy. Also I still fail to see how this is possibly going to create jobs. Any answers to these two questions?
Hmmm.... I seem to be having trouble with the quote framing today. LOL | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/24/2009 2:29:14 PM | Mr OP sir....
With all due respect, it's quite obvious you're biased in your opinions and position on this matter....
I would think you have lots to gain here, justa hunch....
Having said that, Being the skeptic I am, my so called cynicism carrys more weight than your unobjective opinions, try being a tad more objective and realize the real truth here.
This is a tax grab to middle Canada, nothing more nothing less, the ''facts'' prove this, there might be some savings for the well off and poor but does nothing but increase the annual tax burden for the middle class.................
As for the 1.6 billion dollar gift, it's about time some of BC's tax dollars came back from where it was stolen from... a few and far between event...... | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/24/2009 5:04:16 PM | If you have a business that provides a services only (no hard goods) I understand with HST you now must begin collecting and remitting 12%VAT, instead of 5%GST. Effectively your charge-out rate will increase.
and.. from:
http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/scp/hst/Questions.html
Housing:
Under the GST, new housing is subject to tax while used housing is not. Neither is directly subject to PST, although there is currently embedded PST in the cost of new homes equivalent to an estimated 2% tax rate on average since most construction materials are subject to PST. Under the HST there would be no embedded tax in the cost of new homes. However, HST would be applied to new housing, effectively increasing the tax from 2% on average to 7%. That would create a disincentive to purchase a new home or build new housing for the rental market.
B.C. is therefore proposing to provide a partial rebate for new housing equal to 5% of the purchase price up to a maximum rebate of $20,000. Since purchasers currently pay on average the equivalent of a 2% tax through embedded PST, there will not be a tax increase for new housing valued up to $400,000.
This $400,000 threshold reflects the median price of new housing in urban areas in B.C. in 2008, so that on average those purchasing houses at or below the median price would generally be fully protected from a tax increase. Those above the median price would still receive the maximum $20,000 rebate. The rebate would be available whether the new housing is to be owner occupied or rented.
Housing prices could be increased, depending on supply v. demand. | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/24/2009 5:09:16 PM | Exactly!
As for the median on housing, how many areas, besides Surrey, can you find a house for $400,000 or under? Even then the houses are generally not very nice in Surrey for that price.
I get it the median price includes all of BC and that means where the higher density of population is (Lower Mainland and Vancouver area) is screwed.
IMHO it seems as though the government is not only shifting the tax burden from companies to the middle class, but is also trying to force everyone into high density living. I.e. Apartments and townhouses.
This is really not good news for a recovering economy and I suspect if we are not almost recovered by July 2010 the new harmonized tax could have serious reprecussions in some sectors, new housing being one of them.
Take a look at the CBC news article here: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/07/24/bc-hst-prices.html | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/24/2009 5:18:34 PM | HST......l m n o p...pee!
I second that.....  i second that...and motion to STRIKE...
nice chat topic. 
DAS SLEDGE, hmmmm talk to he hand....or iron fist....lol | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/24/2009 5:47:37 PM | "Median price of housing" is meaningless in this context an is intended to mislead. The "average" price might have some validity. If 9000 houses sold for $1,000,000 and one sold for $1, the median would be $500,000.00 the average price would be $999,888.90.
Which do you think would thing would better represent reality for most purchasers? | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/24/2009 6:49:48 PM | Tax revolt, tax revolt, tax revolt! Some people are calling for a tax revolt. Apparently something like this was tried in Ontario. It failed and Ontarians received 1000 dollars cheques in the mail.
The restaurant industry is opposed. This good put some restaurants out of business.
They say the average profit for a restaurant is 4 percent.
I for see terrible trouble.  | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/24/2009 7:03:41 PM | Here personal tax rates are getting compared with business tax rates.
No. My point is that separating businesses from people doesn't make sense, and neither does it make sense to say "businesses should pay the tax rather than us." Regardless of whether sales tax is included in expenses or tacked on after the fact, consumers are still going to pay it because that's the only place businesses ultimately make money. However, taking it out of accounting does make it easier and safer to start up a business, and so encourages more people to do so - surely a good thing?
It also particularly doesn't make sense to say taxes are being shifted from businesses to the middle class, since most businesses are owned by middle class people. :P
Fine that is good for an individual, but do you have a family? Families are going to be hit much harder than a single person.
I don't know about that. Most families I know don't go out anywhere near as often as single people do because, PST or no PST, it's just too expensive already. But anyway, if they get bigger income tax cuts to make up for it, what does it matter?
But let me toss the question back at you... Exactly how much extra tax do you figure this will cost you every year? Have you even bothered to estimate it, or are you just going by the shouting that it's "a lot"?
I still fail to see how giving individuals less spending power, by charging higher taxes, will help to stimulate the economy. Also I still fail to see how this is possibly going to create jobs. Any answers to these two questions?
I think the idea is to encourage more people (both locals and foreign investors) to start businesses. Probably they're just as interested in that big $1.6 billion bribe from the federal government, which will rescue us from a deficit this year. Whatever the reason, HST is inherently a better system than PST so I'm fine with it.
With all due respect, it's quite obvious you're biased in your opinions and position on this matter....
I would think you have lots to gain here, justa hunch....
Hahahah temptation, that's a hoot. In all the hundreds of sour, venomous messages I've read from you I don't think I've even once seen you say anything good about anyone or anything ... yet *I'M* biased? hahahahahahah 
Not that I'm denying being biased; I told everyone my angle up front. I am a small business owner and happy because it might put a little cash back in my pocket and will definitely save me from filling out silly forms every year. Here, I'll even put numbers to it. Right now I'm paying about $20/month in PST on my expenses, so with HST I'd be shifting about $240/year. On the other hand, I spend about $11 going out to lunch most days, so HST on that will also cost me about $20 per month extra personally. If I gain anything it'll be in extra income tax cuts to make up for it all (if any), plus not having to fill out a stupid PST exemption form every time I buy a new computer (happens a couple times a year).
Housing prices could be increased, depending on supply v. demand.
Now THAT could be real money, I agree. I wonder if their proposed tax there will survive until it actually becomes law, or if it'll be amended.
The restaurant industry is opposed. This good put some restaurants out of business.
Got a reference for that?
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A Business has the ability to write off expenses, individuals do not
you have the possiblity of giving yourself dividends which are taxed lower than income
Although irrelevant to the issue at hand, this is worth answering anyway because it gets at a big philosophical point behind all this.
First, it's a myth that businesses can write off anything they want. There are long and detailed guidelines about what can be claimed, for both corporations and sole proprietors/partners, and CRA does audit businesses every now and then. It's also not necessarily true that dividends are lower, and in fact official CRA policy is to try to arrange taxes so it makes no difference whether you pay yourself a salary or dividends. Of course, business owners do manage to exploit the system anyway, but probably not anywhere near as much as people think.
The interesting bit comes from thinking about this question ... why should there be any business tax at all, since businesses are all owned by people who ultimately pay themselves, and those people have to pay taxes like anyone else? The answer is what you were saying above: because there are ways to hide income in them. BUT ... why not solve the problem by doing away with income tax and raising other kinds of taxes to make up for it? Income tax is inherently more difficult to calculate, much easier to cheat at, and much harder to administrate than other taxes. Just replacing it with simpler taxes would probably shrink the CRA tremendously. Surely that's something we'd all like to see happen, no?
That kind of thinking is one reason why I like the idea of HST. At least I like it now that we already have to do the paperwork for GST (if it meant introducing an entirely new tax I'd be less keen on it, definitely). Transferring tax load from income tax to sales tax isn't quite as good as replacing income tax entirely but it's a step in the right direction. | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/24/2009 7:09:25 PM | HST should be brought in January 1st , 2010... in time for the Olympics!!!!
why wait to gouge restaurant goers and tourists in the summertime... I say go after the foreign visitors and dignitaries...they get it rebated when they leave if they go to the trouble of filling out the forms and saving their receipts.
hell ya... let's see what impact a 12% tax on everything goes over for the Olympics!
can't see much bounceback to the economy when there is a broad base tax on practically everything... I think there will be a lot less spending by the middle and low income earners....and they do count btw...and they can be vindinctive at the polling booth. | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/24/2009 7:31:41 PM | OP.....
So we agree on.....
You're no comic...
You're biased....
You're basing your opinion on your personal gain..
Faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary you attack personally....
It's a start I guess.....
I'll keep my original opinion, base it on facts, stick up for the majority of taxpayers that's fed up with the elitest minority attitudes and conclude this tax is a grab, quite simple,there's no need to carry on with a defenceless defence...
Post your business's name and we'll see what your opinions do for business.... | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/24/2009 7:45:52 PM | With respect to the restaurant industry saying it could (for some reason I always confuse good for could in writing) put them out of business . . . I saw the story on Global News. John Bishop owner of Bishops was speaking. I think I may have assumed that the entire industry is opposed. I suspect most people in that industry are . . . I mean really, it could put some restaurants out of business.
Personally, I do not want have to pay more when I eat out. What about when we go to Starbucks? Will the cost of coffee and eats go up? YIKEs . . . . the nightmare begins. | |
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Posted: 7/24/2009 8:51:35 PM | With respect to the restaurant industry saying it could (for some reason I always confuse good for could in writing) put them out of business . . . I saw the story on Global News. John Bishop owner of Bishops was speaking. I think I may have assumed that the entire industry is opposed. I suspect most people in that industry are . . . I mean really, it could put some restaurants out of business.
A lot of restaurants live permanently on the edge, so just about any change could put them out of business.
I've been trying to think through whether this will really make much difference to them. I'm not a restaurant owner but I don't think there's any great secret to operating one, so ... the big costs are rent, food, and salaries. All of those won't be affected at all by the change from PST to HST. Other stuff they would pay PST on - furniture, dishes & tableware, miscellaneous, is probably what.. 10-15% of their budget? So they won't benefit much from saving PST, maybe 1% back to them. That's less than I'd guessed before thinking about it. Still, if their customer numbers didn't change that would make a 5% profit margin instead of 4%.
So the real question is will they get less (or more) business because of this?
Some say it'll discourage tourism, which in turn would hurt restaurants, but this sounds pretty silly; do tourists care about sales tax? How many people are going to come all the way here for holidays then not eat out because of 7% tax? Probably just the ones who camp, who wouldn't have eaten out anyway. Foreigners won't care about sales tax because they can claim it all back when they leave. The cost of a hotel stay will go down with HST (current provincial room tax is 8%), so the people who do care about taxes might be more likely to come.
For licensed restaurants (ie those that serve alcohol) the average increase in price won't be 7%. In fact, the average price could even go down because HST will replace the current 10% liquor tax. The actual price change depends on how much people drink compared to how much they eat. Pubs should be cheaper.
Other places ... I guess we'll have to see. Most men I know who go out for lunch don't pay much attention to the price and often leave tips way more than 7%, so the increase probably won't matter to them. For myself, I expect it'll make zero difference to my eating habits. Maybe women care more and maybe families will be less likely to go out.
While it seems like something to be concerned about, I don't see any reason for panic so far. | |
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grog27
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Joined: 2/25/2005
Msg: 39 | |
| HST!
Posted: 7/24/2009 9:59:38 PM | "This has made my day, personally - a rare outburst of common sense from government."
Common sense?!?!? You ARE joking, right? Or do you really not have any idea of how we are going to be royally screwed by this latest scam from Drunko Campbell and his cronies?
Suffice to say, Campbell will not be re-elected. Frankly, I doubt that he'll have the guts to even run in the next election. With his trail of lies, deceit and crooked deals (B.C. Rail, anyone?) he has no chance, even with the notoriously short memory of the electorate. | |
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Posted: 7/24/2009 11:21:20 PM | Businesses and people will always complain about having to pay "too much.." tax.
One factor, often overlooked, is that many businesses are not owned locally. Taxing them on "Earnings" rather than transactions (sales tax) is problematic. The point is: they will complain about paying taxes in a jurisdiction but not about using the ready-made infrastucture and established local services: educated workforce, healthcare, roads, water, security/police, telecom, etc. This is worth alot of money to a business and should be paid for up front. If a restaurant had to pay for the full cost of all the services it received, especially if they were not provided by the collective (taxpayers) - for the common good, it might well go out of business.
There are so many unknowns and uncontrolled variables in the economy, I don`t think anybody can draw any certain conclusions about the long-term effects of HST. | |
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Posted: 7/25/2009 1:34:27 PM | | I think I understand now, so the HST is going to be paid and deducted from what is collected on sale like the GST is now am I correct? | |
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Posted: 7/25/2009 7:09:47 PM |
so the HST is going to be paid and deducted from what is collected on sale like the GST is now am I correct?
Yep. HST works the same way as GST. Basically it is GST, just a different rate.
If we read between the lines a bit, it looks like the federal government is trying to coax all the provinces into having the same sales tax system. | |
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Posted: 7/26/2009 12:11:21 AM | ^^ So the obvious question is: "Why?"
We could accept the answers in the government`s press releases however, historically, these have been less than reliable and unbiased.
We could take educated guesses, but they would be only such.
I worry that blending the taxes would further obscure in the public's mind the source, allocation and expenditure of these taxes and accordingly, the identities accountablility those charged with policy creation and administration of public (our) finances. Immediatly, for example, we stop thinking in terms of provincial and federal taxes and which politicians were responsible for raising, lowering or mismanaging certain budgets.
That this important policy should be announced fait-accomplis without exhaustive public debate in the legislature (have I missed it) is, at the very least, unethical.
My $0.25 +GST (only). | |
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Posted: 7/26/2009 8:44:58 AM |
^^ So the obvious question is: "Why?"
Well, the two obvious answers are because it makes it easier to do business in (or across) Canada as a whole, and because it shifts a bit of power to the federal government. Take your pick according to how suspicious of them you are. :)
That this important policy should be announced fait-accomplis without exhaustive public debate in the legislature (have I missed it) is, at the very least, unethical.
What's the point? Here's what'll happen in any public debate on taxes:
If government proposes a tax raise, everybody in Canada will be against it, except some of the people who benefit from the increased spending.
If they cut taxes, only opposition politicians will be against it, plus however many of their supporters they can rile up. That'll still be a lot of people once they complain about cutting services, though. The noise level will still be just as high.
If they do something in between, like the HST or the carbon tax, every media pundit, industry spokesman and politician everywhere will shout about it according to their particular angle and we'll wind up with an unresolvable quarrelfest.
Most of that "public debate" will be for selfish and/or hidden motives, and devoid of any real intention to compromise or agree anything. The NDP flip-flopping on carbon tax is a classic example. And what will it all achieve? If you don't like the Liberals' tax proposals what are you going to do about it? Vote in the NDP, who will surely raise taxes again. Those are the only realistic choices right now. 
At the end of the day the politicos will just say whatever they have to in order to get power, then do whatever they think best ... because that's all that you can do in a country filled with people who expect the impossible and vote mostly based on narrow self-interest. Our democratic system doesn't work as advertised any more (if it ever did). We should just judge our ruling class by the results they achieve.
On the other hand ... the issue of copyright reform is flaring up again now, and this is interesting partly because it's an example of how things can be done differently. Unlike tax debates, this argument is totally not fuelled by politicians. The government (both the current one and past Liberal) would love to get a new copyright law passed quietly with as little public debate as possible, and their past attempts have been pretty blatant sellouts to industry lobbyists. It isn't going to happen quietly because they've seriously pissed off enough ordinary Canadians to spur an organized grassroots protest movement.
In the last election those grassroots groups managed (by co-ordinated protests and a mail campaign) to make this a wedge issue and get pretty much all the opposition to pledge publicly not to pass copyright laws without public consultation. You can be sure that's the only reason the government is holding those consultations now; they know they have no chance of passing the law without them. Of course, after it's all done it's still possible (and maybe even likely) that the opposition will still sell us all out and agree to pass the same stupid laws just to avoid an election, or because they trade it for some other concession. All those hundreds of thousands of protestors will be there to pounce again, though, and any law still has to pass the senate.
I guess that's what it takes to change things here. You can't count on politicians to actually represent you in any meaningful way; they need to be forced to do what you want. | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/26/2009 10:33:32 AM | | There is also the the exemption for children's clothing that will no longer apply I imagine as well. It's already expensive enough to bring up children and the pst exemption was one thing that was kind of a bonus in a way but now we will have to pay an extra 7%...that is a huge expense especially to a long income family or single parent homes....that is just not fair. Looks like maybe businesses will get some sort of break but the regular tax payer will not, as usual. | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/27/2009 5:16:49 PM | What's the point?
Exactly that governments, like most corporate models, is amoral except for that which is imposed on it *only* by the people who control it. The less influence is exerted by ethical people, the more destructive to society they (both) become. That citzens increasingly willing to cynically absolve themselves of their democratic duty to care about, and influence, the political process because "...it won't make any difference...” only exacerbates the problems of bad administration and executive policy-making. Alternately, we could all either go to church and pray that God grants us a wise and benevolent dictator who manages to coax all businesses to respect the environment and our citizens; or, try to grab all the riches from anyone any way we can, while we can.
This goes way beyond the price of McMeals and children's clothing. | |
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Posted: 7/27/2009 5:41:12 PM | Do I see an apeasement to the hostilities that will be taken by the govt.....just before it kicks in ............................................................they drop it to 10%.....prior to the Feds taking over......oh won't Gordy be a hero then!
Let's watch the many trips and trucks coming in from Alberta next year.......help their NON PST province grow even more. Can you see people setting up buying trips to Alberta for consumer groups? | |
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| HST!
Posted: 7/27/2009 7:03:24 PM | No matter how you slice it and dice it I know two things.
I as the end consumer, will be paying more taxes for things for which I now pay less tax.
I as a business operator, will lose some income in the form of the PST Vendor's Commission. The calculation and bookkeeping effort to track the tax and remit is nicely compensated with the commission. In fact the it pales in comparison to the effort to record the phone bills from Telus, one of the most stubbornly stupid invoices I and many, many others have had the displeasure to encounter and record.
In both cases the end result is less money in my pocket. | |
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Posted: 7/27/2009 7:39:41 PM | | I can hardly wait to see the fuss Alberta will put up, having been PST exempt for so long... let the manure chips hit the fan... | |
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Posted: 7/27/2009 11:22:20 PM | Ok, seriously
In a long but not forgotten post i read somethang....and now i must agree
Traveller,s BS...i mean sb>>>> IS running for congress
Ah gad...i am gonna pee my pants...ORDER in da court..
DAS BOOT BAG..... | |
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