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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/12/2009 7:26:28 PM | Hi Claw.
I'm an Aussie who has a personal as well as a civil liberties related interest in the RKBA.
Australian firearms laws are such a welter of confusion and contradiction that they are more schizophrenic than draconian.
Not all types of guns were banned here in 1996 but many popular sporting arms were and firearms regulations, license applications etc, seem to have been worded in such a way as to make life as hard as possible for legal gun owners inluding antique arms collectors.
The laws are so bewildering that even police frequently have trouble working out what is legal and what is not!
In all save one Australian jurisdiction, even capsicum spay is classified as a firearm for the purposes of law and body armour is classified as a "weapon" which private citizens may not own.
Firearm licenses are granted for target shooting, hunting, and historical interest ONLY!
Australian citizens are forbidden to keep or carry ANYTHING for self-defence be it a purpose built weapon or not.
Yet paradoxically, under common law and also statute law, most Australian jurisdictions empower a citizen to use whatever force necessary to repel a home invader, or if you are in a public place where you have a right to belong, to use whatever level of force you need to defend yourself from any unprovoked violence.
Only "weapons of convenience" are considered to be fair play in the eyes of the law, so I guess you could say that we can use a weapon to defend ourselves but only if we get lucky.
We can, if we are rich enough, hire an armed bodyguard to traipse around with us without any license or demonstration of "need."
Firearms laws in Australia are ill conceived and difficult if not impossible to enforce.
These laws favour the rich rather than the poor and also discriminate against the aged, the physically frail and the infirm.
They arguably also discriminate more against women than against men.
In some Australian jurisdictions the number of non-firearm weapons which are either subject to stringent restrictions and special exemptions is large and some are even prohibited altogether.
Fortunately, Australian shooters and others with an interest in this issue, continue to work patiently to liberalise these laws via the political and judicial processes. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/13/2009 3:17:55 AM | Lots of Europe has started moving back towards private practice as socialized health-care didn't work out so hot.
Actually most European countries never completely got rid of privatized health care completely. It is true that there are benefits to privatized health care...if you can afford it. But what about all of the people who can't afford it? Should there not be an alternative? Should a person be denied a chance to live a healthy life just because they are unsuccessful? | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/13/2009 7:58:52 AM | | IMO the best way is "mixed"; private available for those who wish to go that route, but also a true single-payer-type universal system like they have in Canada. Too much private-controlled and profit-motivated like it is here, or vice-versa completely gov't-run with no private essentially available at all; neither "extreme" is any good IMO. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/13/2009 8:48:25 AM | and that is my point.Australia is supposed to be a free nation,and their politicians decided they don't need guns!honestly,i am against abortion,but am pro choice.not my place,and especially the federal governments place to tell anyone what they can or cannot do with themselves.over here,we call them liberals,although it's a contradiction of terms.they want to control every thing and every one.i voted for obama,but he may as well forget gun bans and registered bullets.you want to see america break up,try to take our guns while criminals are walking around with full automatics,i can't even buy one!why do the have them?somebody is getting them from somewhere!stop the flow of illegals,weapons and drugs.we will prosper again.
but,australians,like americans can effect change,if it's not too late.911 hurt us all in more ways than we care to admit.in our panic,we allowed the (un)patriot act,and other controls.once civil liberties are lost,it is very hard to get them back.happened after pearl harbor too.but in time,rights were returned.always be some fight going on,we just have to keep our heads screwed on straight.
you here all the bad things about the wars,but we are winning,we are conditioned to panic.for example,8 us soldiers were killed in a raid last week.panic,need more troops.but what one fails to hear is that over 100 taliban were killed.they cannot continue these losses,not to mention they are lacking funds.we are conditioned to react in a panic."more laws,more money".obama is sitting back,looking at the over all picture,and refuses to react in a panic.scares people,but he is what we needed,a level headed leader.but he still is getting the heat.
anyways,back on track,he is working on health care,it needs fixed,bush busted our budget with part'b'.people are in a panic,but he is keeping his word and looking for a solution.if anything,it will make insurers more competitive.we are at a cross roads,the old way or the new way.with our industries gone or in ruins,deficits,wars.now is the time to begin fixing,changing.so when all the dust settles,we will be set to prosper again.clinton did it,carter did it,although reagon got credit for it,and obama will get us right.
it takes time. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/13/2009 8:56:39 AM | | The Health care bill is a 1000 pages of setting up bureaucracy. There are no specifics in the bill. This is not about Obama , or congress. This about trusting the government machine, those life long bureaucrats that will be creating the panels, boards and managers that will be creating the regulations with little or no congressional oversight. How many federal programs under the machine have gone out of control are bloated, and have created really bad regulations. DO you really trust the system. Be honest. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/13/2009 11:18:31 AM | Do I trust the system? Not really, but I have to look at personal experience. My ex has VA care, not necessarily his choice of doctors but he has good care. Sees a specialist when he needs to. Overall happy with government medicine.
I handled the medicare for both of my parents. They had excellent care with the physicians they chose with government medicine.
I have private health insurance through my employer. I have spent periods of time without health insurance during times of unemployment due to the cost of COBRA. Even though I have excellent insurance now, I still have to fight to get things covered. They find any excuse to delay payment. I have had them refuse to cover reading an MRI because the only radiologist group at their preferred hospital in not "in network". My doctor has had to change prescriptions on a cheap generic because they refused to authorize. Her group has one nurse dedicated to calling insurance companies every day to try to get procedures and medications covered and paid for. So to your question, do I trust the government system, not so much. Do I trust the for profit health insurance industry? Not at all. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/13/2009 11:34:21 AM | | ^^ i havent been there for your experiences and its good for u that they have went well, but my father in law is a vet and he hates the care he gets thru the va, also my mother has parkisons , to the point where she cant even get outta bed most days, and my father had to spend a boat load of money fighting the goverment to get her disability, i dont know that either of our stories are the run of the mill but i can tell you that not everyones experiences are good,iam glad that u r happy with yours but i do see problems for others. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/13/2009 2:37:04 PM | I am in the socialized medical system of the VA. I've never had problems getting appointments, needed specialists and testing. The people are caring, diligent, have excellent bedside manners, and are professional every step of the way. The VA instituted a computer records system and redundancy in patient ID that assures the right patient is getting the right drugs and procedures, a system that private industry is trying to catch up to. Other than being underfunded, understaffed and overwhelmed by hundreds of thousands of new war vets, they do damned well with available resources. I went in for my annual lab tests last week and I spent approximately 2 minutes in the waiting room.
I know our veterans do not deserve socialized medicine, but if this is the future of socialized medicine, I would have to say that the nightmare scenario is wildly overblown and highly inaccurate. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 10/13/2009 11:13:56 PM | thing is,the va has very good care.i used them.but when dealing with veterans,geriatrics,handicapped,ect.,there are going to be complaints.there are waits,can be slow.people see things as an individual,and va care is limited by the amount of hospitals,staff and budgets they have.one would imagine,with new health care,veterans can also use regular public care if they choose.great option,keeping in mind the va is set up for many of our special needs,and we cannot lose sight of that.
i researched national health care.seems to work well most of the time,keeping in mind,working with the public,you are always going to have complainers.1000 pages is nothing,makes one wonder how many pages the current 'plans'have as opposed to one consolidated plan,plus private competitors?people,i don't care what bunk you are reading,republicans have been using that ploy for years now,this is a great idea,it's time has arrived,and we best get er done.now is the time to over haul the works.stop complaining about obama's big spending,most of that money is put back collecting interest.look at it all,not this internet crap,it will work,has to work,and will have growing pains. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:49:21 AM | The Second Amendment acknowledges a pre existing right to own guns.
There is no constitutional basis for health care whatsoever. If we allowed people to buy health insurance from other states, that alone would open up competition and lower costs overnight. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/4/2009 11:02:26 AM |
considering there was hardly a legitimate doctor in the country when the constitution was written it would have been more than a little spooky had the founding fathers included a healthcare provision. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/4/2009 11:09:13 AM | | lol @ thinking you have a right to healthcare. Left wing sheep. You have a right to freedom of speech, and the pursuit of happiness, but you DON'T have a right to healthcare. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/4/2009 1:47:34 PM | | For this comparison to be legitimate in any way a person would buy a gun and shoot it everyday,and his neighbor would have to buy the bullets...self defense is a right..the key word being self. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/4/2009 1:52:35 PM |
lol @ thinking you have a right to healthcare. Left wing sheep. You have a right to freedom of speech, and the pursuit of happiness, but you DON'T have a right to healthcare.
Here's the thing that really pisses me off about this debate. These senators callin the shit socialism, blah blah, etc. and so forth.
All those senators have been granted free healthcare for the rest of their lives until they die. What did they do? They were appointed as senators. You could say, but that's their job, it's their job that's giving them free healthcare as a benefit.
But they work for the government, so the government is essentially giving these government officials free healthcare.
I just feel it's kind of F*cked up that these people enjoy free healthcare for the rest of their lives, then are very vocal in being against a government policy to bring it to the people. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/4/2009 6:40:53 PM | Politicians are like that. They "de-indexed" pensions in Canada for eveyone...except them selves. They love voting themselves bread and circuses, leaving the general population to foot the bill. Especially when a lot of the general populace cannot afford or access the programs and perks that most politicians enjoy.
Even in the States, gun ownership is becoming more of a privilege than a right.
Here in Canada, there is talk of scrapping the gun registry program that they spent billions on. It never really worked. We Canadians may not be huge believers in keeping guns "just in case"...but then again...maybe we just don't talk about it much and we're actually armed to the friggin' teeth! Not many really want to find out though. The "sheeple" registered their guns...the rest of the populance told big brother to mind their own business.
Healthcare. No matter who you are, you will be using it someday. Should you pay the whole shot yourself? Most poeple can't afford it. This is why a social healthcare system is needed.
Insurance? LOL....they weasle out of paying and leave you losing everything you every had! So that way doesn't work. Too many loopholes for insurance companies to get out of paying!
If the gov't had cracked down on insurance companies and made laws stating that "pre-existing conditions" could NOT be used to deny insurance coverage or buying new policies, it may have worked. Also, a broadening of costs paid for would have helped. But...the gov't decided to go with the lobbyists and didn't go after the insurance companies. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/4/2009 6:43:16 PM | Hot off the press:
"OTTAWA –A long-running effort by the Conservatives to kill the long-gun registry has passed an important hurdle in the House of Commons, with a majority voting for the first time in 14 years to study a bill to repeal it.
MPs voted 164-137 to give "second reading" — or "approval-in-principle" - to a private member's bill sponsored by MP Candice Hoeppner (Portage-Lisgar) that calls for the repeal of legal requirements to register long-barrelled rifles and shotguns."
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/720988--house-takes-step-toward-repeal-of-gun-registry?bn=1
The fight to end the biggest waste of tax payer dollars in Canadian history is over. Now maybe they'll have some money for better policing and social programs to help prevent gun crimes. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/5/2009 12:30:23 PM | | How are social programs going to help prevent gun crimes...people shoot each other because they of what is in their heart not because government does or does not have a program to adress it.....it's amazing that we as human beings have come to the point where we don't even recognize the role human nature plays in society's problems, instead it's always because government isn't spending enough money, spend more money all will be well...next thing you know we will all get a check from the government each month not shoot,rape or rob our neighbor. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/5/2009 4:06:51 PM | | This thread still makes no sense to me. Healthcare is open to all. It is a right that is protected even moreso than the right to own a firearm. From whence does this whining originate? From those who want FREE healthcare. That's where. I don't ask you to foot the bill for my ammo each month, don't compare that to asking me to help foot your med bill each month. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/5/2009 4:40:23 PM | to message 64........no..we the people didnt give them healthcare.....nor did "the government".......they gave it to themselves AND they made us pay for it.........same as they just gave themselves a $90k raise...........all the laws they pass....all regulations and restrictions....that we the people have to live by........they exempt themselves from....there is nobody.....no entity...nothing in our legal system...nothing...that has power over the congress or senate......................only the voters...and the average american voter does more research and comparison shopping on toilet paper than they do on their congressman, senator............or presidential cantidate.
sadly.....right now....only 2 groups of people are given healthcare as a right......those 2 groups are convicted criminals and illegal aliens...........
think i'm wrong?.........................do some research | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 12:44:13 AM | Heres really the only way I am ok with any money coming out of my pocket for this fiasco (why because I am fiscally responsible and capable of taking better care of myself then that government)
If they DNA type, catalogue, record and profile EVERY patient birthed, screened, admitted, treated and made that data accessible to law enforcement. (subpeno required for query, not collection) Then I would be ok with it.
If they made Finger printing and National identity a caveat to care with a new national health card. Deportation for illegal alien population. Then I am ok with it.
Convert one prision in every state to 'free' care. hey, they have the facilities for it. You can check out when your social debt is paid off.
Other wise, you are just throwing more money down a hole, paying off special interest groups, propping up drug companies, shoring up comminity pork barrel orginizer groups, and supporting the machine of Medicare, Medicaid, AARP, private insurance and unions in a piecemeal fracture jigsaw puzzle that is destoned to fail. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 1:53:17 AM | Guns are a big part of our healthcare system. When we fall through the cracks of the system, develop a terminal disease that the insurance company refuses to cover, we have our guns as a backup plan. More people die of suicide than homicide in the US, with guns being the preferred method in 55% of exits. White males are the bravest and most inclined to blow their brains out. Veterans, not getting the adequate treatment they needed for PTSD, blowing their brains out in the highest numbers in decades.
The cheapest health care system we can come up with is more guns for everyone.
A less messy and more humane system would cost a little more, but hey...we're number one at being cheaparses.
Op-Ed Columnist
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/opinion/05kristof.html?_r=1
Unhealthy America
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
The moment of truth for health care is at hand, and the distortion that perhaps gets the most traction is this:
We have the greatest health care system in the world. Sure, it has flaws, but it saves lives in ways that other countries can only dream of. Abroad, people sit on waiting lists for months, so why should we squander billions of dollars to mess with a system that is the envy of the world? As Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama puts it, President Obama’s plans amount to “the first step in destroying the best health care system the world has ever known.”
That self-aggrandizing delusion may be the single greatest myth in the health care debate. In fact, America’s health care system is worse than Slov—er, oops, more on that later.
The United States ranks 31st in life expectancy (tied with Kuwait and Chile), according to the latest World Health Organization figures. We rank 37th in infant mortality (partly because of many premature births) and 34th in maternal mortality. A child in the United States is two-and-a-half times as likely to die by age 5 as in Singapore or Sweden, and an American woman is 11 times as likely to die in childbirth as a woman in Ireland.
Canadians live longer than Americans do after kidney transplants and after dialysis, and that may be typical of cross-border differences. One review examined 10 studies of how the American and Canadian systems dealt with various medical issues. The United States did better in two, Canada did better in five and in three they were similar or it was difficult to determine.
Yet another study, cited in a recent report by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and the Urban Institute, looked at how well 19 developed countries succeeded in avoiding “preventable deaths,” such as those where a disease could be cured or forestalled. What Senator Shelby called “the best health care system” ranked in last place.
The figures are even worse for members of minority groups. An African-American in New Orleans has a shorter life expectancy than the average person in Vietnam or Honduras.
I regularly receive heartbreaking e-mails from readers simultaneously combating the predations of disease and insurers. One correspondent, Linda, told me how she had been diagnosed earlier this year with abdominal and bladder cancer — leading to battles with her insurance company.
“I will never forget standing outside the chemo treatment room knowing that the medication needed to save my life was only a few feet away, but that because I had private insurance it wasn’t available to me,” Linda wrote. “I read a comment from someone saying that they didn’t want a faceless government bureaucrat deciding if they would or would not get treatment. Well, a faceless bureaucrat from my private insurance made the decision that I wouldn’t get treatment and that I wasn’t worth saving.”
It’s true that Americans have shorter waits to see medical specialists than in most countries, although waits in Germany are shorter than in the United States. But citizens of other countries get longer hospital stays and more medication than Americans do because our insurance companies evict people from hospitals as soon as they can stagger out of bed.
For example, in the United States, 90 percent of hernia surgery is performed on an outpatient basis. In Britain, only 40 percent is, according to a report by the McKinsey Global Institute.
Likewise, Americans take 10 percent fewer drugs than citizens in other countries — but pay 118 percent more per pill that they do take, McKinsey said.
Opponents of reform assert that the wretched statistics in the United States are simply a consequence of unhealthy lifestyles and a diverse population with pockets of poverty. It’s true that America suffers more from obesity than other countries. But McKinsey found that over all, the disease burden in Europe is higher than in the United States, probably because Americans smoke less and because the American population is younger.
Moreover, there is one American health statistic that is strikingly above average: life expectancy for Americans who have already reached the age of 65. At that point, they can expect to live longer than the average in industrialized countries. That’s because Americans above age 65 actually have universal health care coverage: Medicare. Suddenly, a diverse population with pockets of poverty is no longer such a drawback.
That brings me to an apology.
In several columns, I’ve noted indignantly that we have worse health statistics than Slovenia. For example, I noted that an American child is twice as likely to die in its first year as a Slovenian child. The tone — worse than Slovenia! — gravely offended Slovenians. They resent having their fine universal health coverage compared with the notoriously dysfunctional American system.
As far as I can tell, every Slovenian has written to me. Twice. So, to all you Slovenians, I apologize profusely for the invidious comparison of our health systems. Yet I still don’t see anything wrong with us Americans aspiring for health care every bit as good as yours. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 7:12:20 AM | The universal health care cost money. Someone has to pay for those "under privileged" people. The gun owners pay for guns from their own pockets. They don't ask me for money.
If you bleeding liberal are so cared about "poor" people, why dont' you set up a charity to support them? | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 8:21:14 AM | The universal health care cost money. Someone has to pay for those "under privileged" people. The gun owners pay for guns from their own pockets. They don't ask me for money.
Thankyou, and thanks to us (and Obama's rants about how he would ban them all), that segment of the economy saw a 500% increase this last year, compared to the rest of the economy's nose-dive. Firearms are highly "American" in the jobs/parts/etc. they derive from. The anti-gunners would hurt the economy a good bit if they got their way. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 9:27:59 AM | On a related note I've recently come to a realization of sorts. I find it funny how some conservatives are up in arms about 'Obamacare' as some like to say. Ok, what's funny is how some conservatives are against excessive spending/taxing etc because they feel they shouldn't have to pay for OTHER peoples well being. "spreading the weath" etc. Ok a valid stance.
NOW where it gets funny is these are some of the same people who believe in "serving" your country and DYING to supposedly "protect" OUR freedoms. Can I get a big LOL hypocrisy please? So they will DIE for OTHERS but touch their wallet and 'it's on' 
I call these people military socialists. Socialistic except on the other side of the spectrum as the economic socialists.
And btw I don't identify with any 1 group as I think liberals & conservatives both have their irrational emotion fueled portions that value their egos & pride more than common sense & problem solving which I don't subscribe to. I believe in common sense, fairness and problem solving not ideological obedience. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 11:46:45 AM | People who argue that its not fair that they have to pay for a healthcare program don't realize that they are already paying far more than places like the UK due to safety net programs designed to protect the population as a whole.
Of course we could just let the millions without coverage go naked so these butt hurt people can keep those meager pennies on each paycheck. Its not as if a total lack of healthcare could allow something like a plague to happen or anything. | |
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