| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 2:31:23 PM | National healthcare works great for people who never get sick. Although it does hinder thier prosperity from the insane taxes that it takes to pay for such marxist schemes.
However, if you are ill or elderly and no longer needed for the work effort National healthcare sucks. You are both broke and excluded from healthcare under rationing.
Guns protect our persons. They are tools used for getting us food. And give us a defence against the government from becoming completely despotic.
It is common sence to us not infatuated by the likes of Mao or Stalin. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 2:44:53 PM | | i guessmy question is why is guns always pick on, i mean should we give up the right to a free press for healthcare or howabout the freedom of speech should i give that up? also its not like the goverment gives you the gun, u do have the right to guy out and BUY the gun, just as u have the right not to. also its not everyones right to own a gun either!!!!!. let me ask you guys this should we give up the right to abortion for healthcare. would u ask people to give up that right? | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 3:28:03 PM |
Lots of Europe has started moving back towards private practice as socialized health-care didn't work out so hot.
Got any empirical facts to back up this assertion, or is it just another rumor to use to try to put people off universal health care? Where are your facts, statistics, data to support your assertion? | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/6/2009 7:03:46 PM | European countries that boomed post war much like the U.S., are now seeing a marked increase in retiring baby boomers. Take Germany, the largest EU economy:
Between 1970 and 2003, the numbers of retired and unemployed in Western Germany were up by 80% to 16.3 million, while workers to replace and support them rose by only 4% to 30.7 million. By the end of 2003, more than 50% of Germany's unemployed had been without a job for a year or more, compared to 6% of the same in the U.S. Societal spending (welfare) has grown to 30% of GDP - more than twice that of the U.S. So payroll and employment taxes are high. (Info Source: The Wall Street Journal, July 10, 2003)
While these numbers are a few years old, they aren't all that old and I don't believe things got significantly better in the past few years. The government was looking at reducing entitled vacation time from 30 days per year for all. Hours of work were being cut. The government is forcing recipients to dispose of "luxuries" such as a basic automobile in order to continue receiving unemployment. Their basic message to citizens: "It's time to get off the dole and get back to work - any work."
I'm not quite sure where Germany currently stands on health care coverage - how wide the coverage is and to what extent it may be subsidized (measured health care or unlimited?). I know their goal was cradle-to-grave. But one thing is for sure: They were already hurting badly in 2003. The rest of the world was coming out of a slowdown with slow but positive growth, while Germany was just entering a recession. (Source: World Economic and Social Survey 2003).
At present, Germany had four consecutive losing quarters in 2008-2009, with the first quarter of 2009 dropping 3.5% - the largest ever. By the end of July, it had finally climbed out of the negative after a year, to a meager 0.3% growth rate again. Whether, as in the U.S., this small improvement was a reflection of national stimulus plans or not, remains to be seen.
... Would you say that Germany has socialized medical care?
No, it's not a socialized system, because you can pick your insurance, public or private. Many people can even opt [out], and the sickness funds compete for members. You have free hospital or physician choice; there are very few limits on choice in the system. ... In a socialized system, everything is planned; in Germany, basically everything is open for nonprofit competition. - Prof. Karl Lauterbach,
Health economist and member of German parliament
(Source: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/themes/socialized.html)
This German politician and health expert himself says Germany does NOT have socialized healthcare, but non-profit health care. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 9:43:10 AM |
This thread still makes no sense to me. Healthcare is open to all. It is a right that is protected even moreso than the right to own a firearm. From whence does this whining originate? From those who want FREE healthcare. That's where. I don't ask you to foot the bill for my ammo each month, don't compare that to asking me to help foot your med bill each month.
So why do politicians get free healthcare, but not the people? I submit all politicians forfeit their free healthcare, and pay for it like the rest of America.
Also, we pay for public health services if you think about it. When you get down to it, police is a form of health care. It's not very healthy to have someone break into your house and shoot you. We collectively pay taxes so that a police force can protect us. We collectively pay taxes for the fire department too. You don't see any politicians campaigning for privatized fire departments.
If I proposed that it should be privatized and people need to pay for plans for police and fire departments, you'd call me nuts, and probably an anarchist or something. Yet when it turns to healthcare, I'm a socialist. Wanting collective protection from criminals and fires is American, but when that hostile thing shifts to being a germ, it's suddenly socialist? | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 10:00:03 AM | Actually, even Canada is looking at a two tiered (private and public) system, so universal healthcare is not the utopia it claims to be.
I think both the Repubs and Dems have their issues and the right answer is somewhere in the middle.
I think Government Healthcare is a possible solution, but states have the right to opt in (not opt OUT).
I think the Healthcare is a RIGHT, and that Insurance companies cannot just use the dreaded "pre-existing condition" to deny health care coverage.
I think there should be cross state competition, and I shake my head everytime that Dems ignore that issue.
I think Abortion should not be apart of any public health plan (except for Rape and incest). It may be legal, but it is morally questionable to about half the population.
However, I think that legal liability causing medicine to skyrocket is a red herring. It isn't lawyers driving doctors to practice defensive medicine and write up every test known to man, it is greed. Studies from Northwestern has shown that in Missouri and Texas, where legal liability is restricted, health care costs are going up just as fast. This is because many people are ordering up test and getting kickbacks from those testing. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 10:57:04 AM |
Why should it be a constitutional right for any American to own a gun while only those with a lot of money can have full healthcare benefits from the best doctors in the country while others who don't have as much money can't get the same treatment, especially for important medical procedures. If anything, it should be a human right to have proper medical care regardless of whether you make 30,000 a year or 500,000 or whatever to save your life and a privelage to own a gun which in hindsight can kill people. They are treated equally in America.
You can buy a gun. If you don't have the money to, you can't.
You can buy healthcare. If you don't have the money to, you can't.
Same difference. Same results. The people with the most money have the best guns and the best healthcare. The people with the least money get shot and die on the street. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 10:59:34 AM |
Same difference. Same results. The people with the most money have the best guns and the best healthcare. The people with the least money get shot and die on the street.
It's all about priorities. I have stuff that would make any police dept./military armorer crack a smile a mile wide, but I certainly don't have more money than these groups. Just better taste and the will to save until I can buy something I want.
Same to healthcare. I am relatively healthy and when I do need to go to the Dr. I spend intelligently. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 11:04:52 AM |
It's all about priorities. I have stuff that would make any police dept./military armorer crack a smile a mile wide, but I certainly don't have more money than these groups. Just better taste and the will to save until I can buy something I want.
Same to healthcare. I am relatively healthy and when I do need to go to the Dr. I spend intelligently You have a VERY nice car, and you can afford to go to the gym regularly. Both of those are things that many people who don't earn a lot, simply cannot afford. For them, it's a choice between guns and healthcare or food and electricity. They don't have the money for both those groups. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 3:57:13 PM | You have a VERY nice car, and you can afford to go to the gym regularly. Both of those are things that many people who don't earn a lot, simply cannot afford. For them, it's a choice between guns and healthcare or food and electricity. They don't have the money for both those groups.
My car cost $12,000+TTL, and my gym runs me $30 a month. I don't go out to see movies or stuff but 1-2x per month, I don't eat out but maybe 3-4 times a month, and I try to live a minimalist lifestyle confined to my daily activities and my few hobbies. I live on roughly $15-18K a year, including books and full-time college tuition. It's not that hard to live intelligently on little money unless you have a medical condition or something that necessitates spending lots of money.
Pay cash for everything
Stay out of debt.
Needs THEN wants.
My dad used to only make 20-25K a year net, but he had a private plane (Cessina 182), 55 (acres, bought/payed for), a harley, and a 'vette. I came along and rocked the boat a bit, but still. It just goes to show what you can do if you are sensible and manage money well.
*I did want to come behind this post an add, I was a "bogue" and had no credit, so I got my Dad to co-sign on a $2500 LOC for me, and have used it a LOT! I went from being a bogue to having a beacon of over 700 according to Experian in roughly 2 years. Building credit is good, not ALL debt is bad. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 4:11:09 PM |
Pay cash for everything
Stay out of debt.
Needs THEN wants.
Not too hard to figure out, people who try to push debt on you are not your friends, if an offer seems too good to be true, it isn't. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/10/2009 8:23:18 PM | Health Care a "right" ? ~ well No and yes !
It appears that government is and has been in the health care business for some time.
In fact ~ paid off politicians ~ have seen to it that it a very lucturive business. Having anti-trust immunity as I understand. ~
It's so lucturive I'm paying for someone else medical coverage while I ain't afford it for myself!
Now ~ how is that really suppose to work for me?
It's so lucturive we can't seem to affect any change in the present setup, as the power and influence of "special interest" fights us tooth , hair and nail to resist any change.
I figure if I'd having to buy someone else ~ perhaps someone might buy mine? NO?
Well, why not, if I must pay for other people health care?
What the people are asking for i ~ Hmm ? I suppose that's impossible.
If they got it affordable enough ~ they are afraid too many people will actually use it!
Damn , we can't allow that to happen. I'd break us!
Health care "should not" be a right but it should be within the reach of say 80% of the people, letting churches and private funding, etc pick up the rest, they one that fall through the cracks.
But the present prices of health care are inflated some 200% as far as 'I'm concerned.
Beyond a working persons reach ~ If I didn't have to pay income tax, state tax, school tax, personal property tax, user tax, road tax , city sales tax and didn't have to buy General Libility business Insurance, Car insurance, house Insurance I think I could afford Medical Insurance. ~
But, having insurance these days ~ just mean that! ~ you got it ~ but you better not dare attempt to use it. They don't want you to use it ~ just buy it. If you do use it ~ it only make it more difficult to afford ~ and it will carry only more disclaimers.
So ~~~ these special interest group are holding us hostage.
It'd be nice if it was privilege ~but your privilege is to die and they want to take that away from you along with your money. So your privilege is only to endure and suffer.
So far it's not against the law to owe someone. Now when they take that away ~ we are really screwed.
Dance | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/11/2009 8:50:54 AM | Ok people...We have our anti gun nuts in here..we have our anti health care reform nuts and those who are just nuts...
Let us make this simple shall we?
The Constitution has what we like to call" THE SECOND AMENDMENT". Some feel it is out dated while others feel it is just as sacred today as when it was written. Gun ownership is a right...To keep and bear arms..
Now on the topic of those who want health care to be a right...
CAN ANYONE...ANYONE SHOW ME WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION THAT IT SAYS HEALTH CARE IS A RIGHT?
You can not....because it is not a right. I do not think it should be a right. Some things in this life you have to pay for folks..... | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/11/2009 12:16:41 PM | Well ~ I think everyone knows it must be paid for and is nether a right or a privilege.
I don't think that's the fuss.
It's more like you having to pay 200% more them you should for a nice heavy frame 357 S&W with a one inch barrel ( a working man piece) . ~ You may have the right to have it ~ but it's out of your reach. And the times you're allowed to use it and what you use it for, is dictated to you by contract. With any breach of contract privileges resended.
well maybe everybody don't know that ~ but that's because of the juicy deal congressmen and senators have allowed Insurance companies ~ They have a duck shoot ~ from the womb to the tomb ~ they've got your happy ass.
Think about it for a minute ~~~~~ this healthy care reform has little to do with a "give-me"
and much to do with the power of special interest as they bleed us dry like a Louisanna tick on an old hound. `
That you are not sick yet ~ is good. ~ but someday ~ your time too shall come.
I have a sister-in-law that came down with this swine flu ~ She's been in ICU 3 weeks hanging on by a thread. ~ On the 4 day when her kidney failed and heart stopped ~ they took control of all her body functions ~ I never seen so many machines , wire and tubes. ~ Put her under with drugs so she wouldn't fight all the wires and tubes for two weeks.
Tomorrow she coming out of ICU and into a rehab hospital for two week to learn to use her body again. ~ It free, someone donated the money, because she's a fighter and survivor ~ it was one hell of a fight. This an extreme case ~ but what ever the bill will be ~ it could never be paid in one life time.
The point? I 'm not sure there is one ~ what price do we place on a life? Insurance companies deal with such things everyday along with doctors and staff.
I'm thinking ~ they need to be paid well ~ but these numbers are beyond imagination.
Bottom line ~ get sick enough , and can't find the help ~ you'll die.
Dance r | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/11/2009 8:13:54 PM | | The difference in this heathcare plan of the uninsured and socialize medicine is that you will die in a hospital rather than the streets. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/19/2009 11:53:40 AM | not to consider quality of life?
as far a medical treatment being "socialized" perhaps it's time.
or keep it as it is " socialized" in varies degrees ~ and stages.
where supply and demand is in play ~ the supply immune to anti-trust laws and the demand overwhelming.
While, my and your tax dollars goes to subsidize "better" employers that offer their employee's a health care package while you and I might have none of our own.
Where the cost of a broken or damaged arm might cost 28,000.00 for the doctor bill alone but the insurance company will only cover $12,000.00 and the doctor left to sue you for the balance ( a real story- my brother) and he's still not fixed! But the doctor is "quit finished"
Shall we just call it "Hard Hocky" ~ that's the way the cookie crumbles?
How much does Government employee's pay for quality medical coverage?
Well, ~ that's how much the rest of us should expect to pay.
Dance | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/19/2009 6:24:53 PM | I don't think it SHOULD be about rights, it should be about logic. The logic I'm talking about DOESN'T lead either to doing nothing, OR to government-controlled health care.
Right now, the entire debate going on assumes employers will continue to be allowed to treat a worker's hours as though the worker will never age, never need to stop working. That is how we are paid today. Foreign competition with nations with totally different systems of pay and totally different expectations of quality of living are allowed to determine how low employers are allowed to pay us. All economic calculations within a private company are based on the assumption that one worker hour is the same as another, and that once the worker is no longer required, or no longer able to work, he becomes SOMEONE ELSE's financial responsibility. There is no recognition that as you use a workers hours, you use up their LIFE.
Ironically, when it comes to INANIMATE resources, the capitalist world DOES recognize that they change,and age, and require replacement, and even post-use care! We have laws that require mining companies to clean up after themselves. Companies have to figure the cost of cleaning up after themselves into the cost of production, and in the prices they charge. They DON'T have to figure ANY of the cost of using up the lives of their HUMAN resources.
The rules of what something costs are ESTABLISHED BY PEOPLE. They do not occur naturally. Right now, the entire health care debate is about who should be allowed to get rich, and who should have to pay, to cobble together some kind of basic short term care for the indigent. It should be about how MUCH of the COMPLETE cost of living is actually calculated. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/21/2009 1:04:33 PM |
... every person would get the same quality of treatment without being stuck on a waiting list like us Canadians have to deal with...
Might not this condition explain the rationale as to why we shouldn't socialize medicine? Being stuck on a list is not getting "quality treatment."
We know what happened. The good doctors went rogue and the not so good ones signed on to the government system.
My guess is that for each person that needs emergency treatment there will be one already in the OR getting a tummy tuck. -h | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/21/2009 10:16:29 PM | | funny that is less true in most socialized health systems than in ours but hey, at this point its just wasting time pointing out that though some of the european and japanese systems have some problems, they don't have nearly the problems our system has. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/21/2009 11:05:54 PM |
Right now, the entire debate going on assumes employers will continue to be allowed to treat a worker's hours as though the worker will never age, never need to stop working. That is how we are paid today. Foreign competition with nations with totally different systems of pay and totally different expectations of quality of living are allowed to determine how low employers are allowed to pay us. All economic calculations within a private company are based on the assumption that one worker hour is the same as another, and that once the worker is no longer required, or no longer able to work, he becomes SOMEONE ELSE's financial responsibility. There is no recognition that as you use a workers hours, you use up their LIFE.
Beautifully put. | |
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| Guns a right but healthcare a privelage?
Posted: 11/21/2009 11:28:24 PM | | Well, hope everyone is happy. My senator sold us out for 100 million and it passed in the senate for debate. While I will get rich off of this if it does pass, I feel bad for my country and those less fortunate than myself. | |
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