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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/4/2009 8:23:48 AM |
I'm not saying I'm 100% right about the reasoning, but if teens actually go out of their way to have kids (which is what the poster I replied stated) then what else could it be? I can't think of one that would make a person look even remotely intelligent.
Maybe we have to address the problem differently, how about if we give sex education classes to the parents, if what we are doing is not working then we have to do some thing differently and since teenage pregnancy is increasing it appears that we need to find a new approach, teenage pregnancy is a symptom of a bigger problem, identify the problem and you find an effective way to deal with it | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/4/2009 9:14:09 AM | One thing Canada, and many northern states don't have to contend with on the same level as the southern US, is the Mexican-Catholic invasion. Teen pregnancy rates have climbed steadily in that community even as the rest of the country declined. Now, as they have become the most populous legal minority in the country, and easily the largest illegal group, that rate is affecting the teen pregnancy rate more strongly.
Throw in that the economy and unemployment rates have become problematic... That we have young soldiers coming home from extended tours of combat duty, and teen pregnancy rates climbing isn't such a mystery. Neither is the debate against abstinence being stressed in sexual education... It's political. If you go back to the beginning of fed. funding for "abstinence only", you'll see that the recent drop in teen abortion rates started at about the same time and have decreased further even as funding has increased. (And the teen pregnancy rates, that were already on the fall, continued to do so until recent years.) Maybe that's just a "co-winky-dink". I don't know. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/4/2009 4:38:44 PM |
I'm not saying I'm 100% right about the cause, but if teens actually go out of their way to have kids (which is what the poster I replied to stated) then what else could it be?
Often, teen girls who have babies on purpose are abused and/or neglected (or at least percieve themselves as such). The babies are surrogates for the affection and attention they don't feel they are recieving at home (because babies are supposed to love you unconditionally).
Sometimes, it's because they believe that it will draw the baby's father closer and create a "happy family".
Very few do so simply because they think it means a steady cheque and "The Life of Riley".
It isn't typically because "liberal policy" has taught them how to "milk the system", it has more to do with "social conservatives" fighting tooth and nail to hide the reality of life, especially sexuality, from teens (because they are just children, don't you know?), and everyone else for that matter.
And sexuality in the media has little to do with it in the general sense. The countries, like Canada and the European ones, with low rates of teen pregnancy typically have the most sexually explicit public broadcast t.v., as in 'over-the-airwaves' not cable (allowing frontal nudity and relatively explicit sexual behaviour) while in the U.S., with very high rates, this kind of public content is highly restricted. It is a very rare case indeed when you can tune to a public broadcast channel in the U.S. and see full frontal nudity.
It's not the content that's the problem, it's the mixed message. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/4/2009 5:58:07 PM |
One thing Canada, and many northern states don't have to contend with on the same level as the southern US, is the Mexican-Catholic invasion. Teen pregnancy rates have climbed steadily in that community even as the rest of the country declined. Now, as they have become the most populous legal minority in the country, and easily the largest illegal group, that rate is affecting the teen pregnancy rate more strongly.
Teen pregnancy amongst all groups including Hispanics was in a decline up until the new Abstinence only programs came into effect. While hispanics do traditionally have a higher rate of teen pregnancy. Your Caucasian population also produces way more teens than ours do. We have our own minority groups who come from cultural traditions where they have many children. A failure to educate them on economic realities is simply another problem with the American system.
It doesn't matter though, because even the hispanic teen population is having more babies than they did before Bush's horrible program started.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/4/2009 7:19:55 PM | Abstinence Only programs work....teens are undereducated, get pregnant, end up quitting school (or not going past high school), work at Wally World and its ilk for minimum pay and are often categorized as a burden to society....by a certain segment of society that profits from them.
Akin to "engineered" Darwinism. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/4/2009 7:38:27 PM |
Teen pregnancy amongst all groups including Hispanics was in a decline up until the new Abstinence only programs came into effect. While hispanics do traditionally have a higher rate of teen pregnancy. Your Caucasian population also produces way more teens than ours do. We have our own minority groups who come from cultural traditions where they have many children. A failure to educate them on economic realities is simply another problem with the American system.
It doesn't matter though, because even the hispanic teen population is having more babies than they did before Bush's horrible program started.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf
^^^ Had I laid it all on our Hispanic population, you might have a point to make.
I'm unconvinced that abstinence only sex-ed is responsible for the current upturn in teen pregnancies. (I'm not a big supporter of the program. I do support abstinence being taught as PART of a comprehensive sex-ed program, with the importance of contraception and STD's also being stressed.)
And BTW, our teen pregnancy rate is still historically low. Like in most things, we do not worry overly much what Canadian's think of us, or whether they have found some statistic in which they are more favorably represented. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/5/2009 5:23:16 PM | Where does lack of being responsible with your own body come in? Kind of like saying "I just can't drive the speed limit officer". Can't or won't? Don't give me that crap about all kids will do it. Walk a horny teen through a cow pasture and I bet they walk around the cow pies. Kids will make a choice when they want to. Sure, some education might help, but it is a behavior thing and that awful and dirty word.... choice. I waited until I was 26 and the first time was with my wife (should have waited longer) . Religion had nothing to do with it. It was a choice. I didn't like the idea of parking my car in a service station. Never know who's oil might get on your tires.
So.... question may be better asked for this post.... "Who is responsible for teaching children about why viagra was invented". Work on the parents. They are the ones who can be sued. Oh, to be 17 again and be immune from law suits.
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/5/2009 8:16:59 PM |
So.... question may be better asked for this post.... "Who is responsible for teaching children about why viagra was invented".
Sorry I don't see the connection between viagra and teen age pregnancy.
Work on the parents. They are the ones who can be sued.
Your right the parents are responsible for the actions of their teenagers or do you think that teens will just make the right decisions
Where does lack of being responsible with your own body come in
I am not a phys major but do believe that the teenage brain has not developed to the point of where they are capable of making fact based decisions and add into that the wild hormones of teenagers and somebody needs to be spending some time talking to their teens and it should be the parents and they should be talking to them before they become sexually active
Oh, to be 17 again and be immune from law suits.
So you are now regretting your decision to remain celibate until you were married? | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/5/2009 9:00:29 PM |
And BTW, our teen pregnancy rate is still historically low.
Not any longer. The U.S. rates are on the rise again. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/6/2009 7:22:01 AM |
Not any longer. The U.S. rates are on the rise again.
That's what this thread is about. Duh. The current upswing of teen pregnancy rates in the US. (And the silly idea that George Bush is responsible for it.) But they're still historically low. (Well, low for the US anyway.)
It's embarrassing that we have the highest teen pregnancy rate in the world (by a long shot.), even at the lowest it's been in a very long time. Aside from Russia, we have the highest abortion rate, as well. I wonder if I'm the only one who finds that even more embarrassing? I wonder if that's Bush's fault too? Abortion rates have been on a downward trend though. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/6/2009 3:02:24 PM |
It's embarrassing that we have the highest teen pregnancy rate in the world (by a long shot.), even at the lowest it's been in a very long time. Aside from Russia, we have the highest abortion rate, as well. I wonder if I'm the only one who finds that even more embarrassing? I wonder if that's Bush's fault too? Abortion rates have been on a downward trend though
Until we start to address the problems that contribute to teen pregnancy the symptoms will continue, why? because we have not identified the cause and continue to treat the symptoms this has become the standard way of dealing with problems in the USA | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/6/2009 9:50:48 PM |
And BTW, our teen pregnancy rate is still historically low. Like in most things, we do not worry overly much what Canadian's think of us, or whether they have found some statistic in which they are more favorably represented.
It's shown a spike, it can't be historically low. It may not be at it's highest point but it certainly isn't at it's lowest.
As for what Canadians think of you that's all fine and good. This thread wasn't about Canada vs Us, Canada is just a good example of how a similar culture can have vastly different results through some basic sexual education. This thread is about the result of irresponsible Bush programs, and how a spike in teen pregnancy has resulted.
If pretending that your kids aren't screwing is easier by pointing out I'm Canadian, hey go for it.
It's embarrassing that we have the highest teen pregnancy rate in the world (by a long shot.), even at the lowest it's been in a very long time. Aside from Russia, we have the highest abortion rate, as well. I wonder if I'm the only one who finds that even more embarrassing? I wonder if that's Bush's fault too? Abortion rates have been on a downward trend though.
You'r teen pregnancy rates contribute to a host of societal ills. Including you're inflated crime rate, you're high abortion rate, and your levels of poverty. So while Bush isn't directly responsible for these things, his unrealistic program has certainly not helped the issue. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/6/2009 10:27:59 PM | You'r teen pregnancy rates contribute to a host of societal ills. Including you're inflated crime rate, you're high abortion rate, and your levels of poverty. So while Bush isn't directly responsible for these things, his unrealistic program has certainly not helped the issue.
Actually, you have it backward. All those things contribute to teen pregnancy rates, as well as the things I've mentioned earlier, and things that have yet to be mentioned. Clinton's program, which was continued under Bush, is just a talking point supplied to people with only enough intelligence to reiterate what they read, and not enough to think about it first.
I've read your posts here on the political forums, some of them anyway. You don't seem to have a very high opinion of the US. At least with anything in the US that isn't liberal/socialist. I'm not a big supporter of the right-wing myself, but they aren't wrong about everything. I'm not going to waste my time going back and forth with you (like some do here). Your politics are your religion, and I could no more have a two sided conversation with you on a politically sensitive subject, than I could discuss the possibility that Christ was just a man with a hard-line Christian.
Edit...
vvv LOL vvv | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/6/2009 10:44:55 PM |
Actually, you have it backward. All those things contribute to teen pregnancy rates, as well as the things I've mentioned earlier, and things that have yet to be mentioned. Clinton's program, which was continued under Bush, is just a talking point supplied to people with only enough intelligence to reiterate what they read, and not enough to think about it first.
The clinton era program Title V, had a total budget of 50 million, and was offered to states who wished to partake. Clinton has since admitted it's an error. Most states ended their participation in 2001.
The CBAE under Bush by contrast was an extention of this program in addition to Title V, and to put it into perspective, it's 2006 year budget was 115 million. That's just for that one year.
Bush and Clinton were both wrong on this issue, it was under Bush however that this error turned into a catastrophy.
Also I think you're confused about "backward" blaming clinton rather than bush is not "backward" of pointing out the results of Bush's policy.
I've read your posts here on the political forums, some of them anyway. You don't seem to have a very high opinion of the US. At least with anything in the US that isn't liberal/socialist. I'm not a big supporter of the right-wing myself, but they aren't wrong about everything. I'm not going to waste my time going back and forth with you (like some do here). Your politics are your religion, and I could no more have a two sided conversation with you on a politically sensitive subject, than I could discuss the possibility that Christ was just a man with a hard-line Christian.
That's fine with me, i'd rather not go back and forth with somebody who rather than discuss the issue has to make it personal. You just devoted two lines of text to an argument that was in error, and 5 to making a rather snide comment with no basis in reality. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/7/2009 1:28:42 AM |
Abstinence Only programs work....teens are undereducated, get pregnant, end up quitting school (or not going past high school), work at Wally World and its ilk for minimum pay and are often categorized as a burden to society....by a certain segment of society that profits from them.
And this, if it's a GIRL, is the GOAL.
An uneducated teenage mom, with her potential for independence seriously limited....Bristol Palin?....is a poster child for the evangelical, "Christian" conservative, political movement....not a failure (of "abstinence only 'education' " LOL)....a SUCCESS (exactly what it is meant to produce--OOPS!?). | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/7/2009 5:56:57 AM |
Actually, you have it backward. All those things contribute to teen pregnancy rates
Abortion leads to teen pregnancy?!?
High crime leads to teen pregnancy?!?
Really? Would you care to expound on the sociological theory behind those odd ideas?
I'm not a big supporter of the right-wing myself, but they aren't wrong about everything.
Well, I guess that might be true IF you included beliefs like "the sun rises in the east", but that's about as deep as it goes. It certainly doesn't apply to issues like adolescent sexuality. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/7/2009 8:15:48 AM |
Abortion leads to teen pregnancy?!?
The attitude toward abortion and the existence of an easy fix for not using contraception (In the minds of certain children.) can lead to promiscuity and recklessness. Is this true of every teen who gets pregnant? No. Of course not. But is a contributing factor to the problem.
High crime leads to teen pregnancy?!?
Neighborhoods with high crime rates have more teen pregnancies. Kids who drink illegally, take drugs, or have behavior issues (Whether they live in high crime neighborhoods or not) are more at risk for being sexually irresponsible and becoming pregnant. How about rape and intimidation?
Statistics on Rape in Teen:
-Teens 16 to 19 were three and one-half times more likely than the general population to be victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault. (National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, 1996.)
-According to the Justice Department, one in two rape victims is under age 18; one in six is under age 12.
-Teen childbearing alone costs U.S. taxpayers nearly $7 billion annually for social services and lost tax revenues. (that's a 1997 number)
Neither one of the above issues is THE cause of teen pregnancy. There are a myriad of contributing factors to the teen pregnancy rate in the United States. I don't think anyone understands it fully. Laying it at the feet of a program, that has been running concurrently with a drop in teen pregnancy rates until recently (About the time the economy really took a dump, and a lot of young US soldiers returned from extended combat duty in Iraq.), is at best stupid. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/7/2009 10:33:00 AM |
Laying it at the feet of a program, that has been running concurrently with a drop in teen pregnancy rates until recently (About the time the economy really took a dump, and a lot of young US soldiers returned from extended combat duty in Iraq.), is at best stupid.
Well, I know that in Texas BOTH teen pregnancy AND STD's have been among the highest in the nation since well before the Iraq War and/or the current economic downturn (Texas counties have one-by-one been implementing "abstinence-only" education beginning in the mid-1990s, when we had a governor named Bush). So, for example, in 2003 (the year the Iraq war began) the Washington Post reported on the results of such a program in my own home county of Lubbock.
http://lists101.his.com/pipermail/smartmarriages/2003-January/001438.html
In a nutshell, following the implementation of a strict abstinence-only program in Lubbock, pregnancy rates failed to go down as much as was the norm in the nation as a whole (and remained higher than the national average), and STDs soared--doubling the national average. In other words, positive developments across much of the country during this period were NOT realized in THIS town, under THAT program.
However, let's say for the sake of argument that you are right in your comment: I would respond by saying that IF abstinence-only education is going to be touted as effective, it's not really much of an advertisement to say "Well, it works, except when things are tough or there's a lot of hot men around (or, for a previous poster, except for when moms work!)." Surely the goal is to help young people (and specifically young girls) protect themselves even when they ARE tempted to have sex for whatever reason??? Whether than means they have sex a lot or a little is, in my view at least, immaterial.....as long as they have the knowledge and the tools to protect themselves when they DO do it.
Plus, I don't know why you attribute the DECLINE in instances of teen pregnancy during the 1990s and early 2000s, nationally, to the proliferation of abstinence-only education. Surely, if you want to argue that teen pregnancy rates rise during periods of economic crisis then the flipside to that would be....well, the flipside, and the 90s were a period of general prosperity (relatively speaking). Plus, it would be much more reasonable to suggest that the recent spike in teen pregnancy is at least PARTLY the outcome of the Bush era mania for (and massive amounts of funding backing) abstinence-only education. Certainly, I haven't seen any evidence linking abstinence-only education to declining teen-birth (and STD) rates, and yet there seems to be plenty of evidence for an opposite trend when it comes to the effects of abstinence-only education (CERTAINLY when it comes to STDs). However, if anyone can produce some evidence linking abstinence-only education to a decline in the results of teenage sexual activity (that isn't from www.peoplewhohavesexaregoingtohell.com or similar), please do provide it. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/7/2009 3:29:20 PM | ^^^
Considering Lubbock has an Hispanic population of 40%, I don't think it's a good example of whether ANY sex-ed program works as a scale model for the entire country. Latino Catholics aren't known for their acceptance of contraceptive use, and considering the economic challenges in that community, the chances of running a successful sex-ed program (of any type) would be slim.
I'm not going to repeat my stance on abstinence only sex-ed every post. I never once said the program was effective (or ineffective), just that it ran in concurrence with the recent improvement in teen pregnancy rates. Which would make it at least appear to have been somewhat successful for those years it was in effect that the rate continued to go down. Whether it had any affect on those numbers at all is questionable to me. (And yes, that improvement started before it became widely implemented.) I'm just pointing out that blaming a sex-ed program 100% for teen pregnancy is absurd. There's more to it than that. In fact, I submit that sex-ed classes (of any type) have very little effect in modern 1st world countries (where the information is in the face of kids long before they are taught it in school.).
It's all well and good to have a class on sexual issues, but like anything we teach our children, what they see us do is what really resonates. It's usually not what information a young person is provided with that makes the biggest difference, it's the environment they are raised in. That doesn't mean necessarily that they are mimicking their parents and peers (Though it doesn't rule it out either.). Teen pregnancy can also result from rebellious acts against parents that are too strict and controlling. Whether a teacher is telling you not to have sex, or showing you how to roll a condom over a banana has little effect either way. If you rein them in too tight they rebel. If you are too permissive, they lose themselves in foolish irresponsible behavior. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/7/2009 11:01:26 PM | Fine, although I have to say that I find the reference to Latino Catholics a bit ironic, considering that you seem to be lamenting a characteristic in a particular demographic's sexual behavior that itself (insofar as it can be said to be generally true) is CAUSED by the exact set of motivations (a religiously motivated abhorrence of sex-just-for-fun) driving the movement against sex education in schools.
Well, whether kids rebel or have bad role models or are Latino Catholics or have working moms or whatever other variables might be in place, INFORMATION is always more empowering than ignorance. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/7/2009 11:15:27 PM | So who do we blame for the Octomom's of the world?
I suppose that's Bush's fault too?
Or does your common sense tell you the welfare state is the more likely culprit?
Looks like socialism at it's best to me... | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/8/2009 4:56:54 AM | Hey look everybody, Swamp hunter is trying to change the subject away from Teen Pregnancy.
Meanwhile Chinashopbull doesn't want to acknowledge that the national dip in teen pregnancy included the Hispanic population. While Hispanics traditionally have higher teen pregnancy rates, they also tend to follow population trends, they do not after all live in complete isolation. | |
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| The Bush legacy: Pregnant teens.
Posted: 8/12/2009 7:34:04 AM |
So who do we blame for the Octomom's of the world?
I suppose that's Bush's fault too?
Or does your common sense tell you the welfare state is the more likely culprit?
Looks like socialism at it's best to me...
No, there are reckless and incompetent people everywhere, of all political stripes.
Do you have reason to believe that welfare workers dragged her to a fertility clinic where a corrupt and idiotic doctor (working, I'm sure, for the good of humanity--LOLOLOL) agreed to implant this mother of six with an army of fertilized eggs?
I think that blaming EITHER Bush OR "socialism" (the most currently abused and misunderstood word in the English language) for the spectacle of "octo-mom would be foolish. But I'll tell ya--it ain't socialism that is now going to reward her irresponsible idiocy with her own reality show.....forget welfare checks, CORPORATE television is setting her up for life in fine fashion. | |
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