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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/10/2009 7:39:49 PM | | dunno where the power would come from, i mean if i don't believe in God then i get zero powers so that kinda bums me the freak out, maybe i can fake it and worship Him for a few weeks and start seein somethin but naw i'm too lazy | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/10/2009 7:48:14 PM |
If in fact this is a trait, is it not an inherited one?
Like "natural" musical ability?
Doesn't ESP give a survival advantage?
Quite possibly...but you don't need it to pay taxes
Thanks for the argument...it was fun! | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/10/2009 10:24:44 PM | ^Musical proficiency is subjective. One may be quite skilled at playing the guitar but that doesn't mean they're any good at coming up with any good music of their own.
ESP would be the ultimate survival advantage so it's safe to assume that if such a thing existed in the first place , we'd all possess a well-honed ability to use our inate ESP abilities. Obviously it doesn't exist. Where are the ESP lottery winners ? Why do "psychics" get on planes that crash or get arrested for fraud ?
Incidentally , you don't need your feet , arms , or eyebrows to pay taxes either ...but there they are. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/10/2009 10:26:06 PM | Porkchop; There are two movies actually one is called "What the Bleep do we know", and the other one is a continuation and is called "Down the rabbit hole".
What the bleep do we know is about quantum physics and how the brain works as far as registering new information with old.
The theories are based on the fact that the brain only retains a certain amount of the information that is inputted and is self serving. So the brain essentialy recalls what it wants to recall.
Although the other information is there it may not be recallable.
This inclues focusing on one subject in a photo and not recalling anything but that one subject.
It's main premiss is that you can train your brain to believe in certain things by the way you talk to yourself. This is absolutely true it has been proven millions of times.
As far as whether I believe that people have powers beyond what they know of course I believe that as far as esp there are people that are good at reading situations.
There are also times when random thoughts may come and these can seem like premonitions but whether or not you can attribute these to yourself or some greater guidance depends on what you believe. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/10/2009 10:35:37 PM | I thought I'd just add that I'm convinced that any "spiritual powers" are governed by the unconscious mind....99.9% of the average person's stories originate in a dream...if in fact these are traits or skills...you know damn well that any skill can't simply be inherited...my ability to unconsciously pick out a perfect octave on the guitar before I knew anything about music didn't simply get passed down from my parents...it came from having music drilled into my head from day one....
The real dilema is how someone can bridge the gap between the conscious and the unconscious...that would explain how these occurances appear to be random....but if I can realize that I'm dreaming while still in the dream...that's a start...
You know...there's a simple way for science to recognize spiritual powers....
All you have to do is take a sample of newborns...and instead of nurturing the logical brain...nurture the intuitive...reinforce their ultra sensitive intuitive minds....and I can almost guarantee you...you'd end up with a bunch of infallible psychic children....
Did I say simple? What mother would agree to that kind of a study?
Incidentally , you don't need your feet , arms , or eyebrows to pay taxes either ...but there they are.
Go back and read the context of my original thought...you missed the point...and the "natural" musical ability comment was kind of an inside joke because I know damn well what late's stance is on that subject....
Obviously it doesn't exist.
It doesn't exist according to science because nobody can conduct a science experiment in their sleep...keep in mind your unconscious is just as "real" as your conscious...afterall...your body NEEDS to sleep...or you'll go crazy..... | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/10/2009 10:53:39 PM | Don"t you think that maybe Spiritual Powers and show business hype
is separate things. It seems to be getting mixed up .
Yes, there is Spiritual Powers. And no. you won't convince the ones that
have never witnessed any of them or felt it.
You'll never convince me that they don't. I have seen to many things.
I won't go into any of them here . It would not make a difference to the
non believers and the believers already know.
And Guardian Angels -- No they don't save us from dangers -- They warn
us -- we can heed to the warning or not. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/10/2009 11:59:58 PM |
They've been employed, but no records have ever shown them to be successful in solving a case or providing useful information. Again, they've had decades to supply evidence to support claims like this, but always fail...
Where do you get that BS? WRONG WRONG WRONG
They have solved many. The proof is on camera and in documentaries on tv all of the time. One would think that if you cannot bother to do the research, that at least you could watch tv. Not fake stories, the real ones put out by the FBI and other valid law enforcement agencies.
Some people just refuse to admit when they are wrong, no matter how much they know everyone else knows it. This isn't subjective opinion, it is fact. Good grief Charlie Brown. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 1:14:41 AM | Vanders Mark ,
Do you know how science works ? It seems pretty clear that you don't.
Science is a tool and in this case it would be a tool employed to determine the merit of any claims of ESP. This doesn't take any emotion or "spirituality" or anything like that. All you need is to show some reasonably conclusive evidence that these powers exist. Where is it ? How many times does it have to be asked for ? Why is it that people rationalize their belief in this nonsense on completely falsifiable evidence but when asked to show the same evidence that convinced them ESP et al. exists , suddenly "science can't test it." ? That's silly. It's like saying "I lifted acar above my head with one arm but I won't show you because you want to see it."
So if it exists why can't it be proven ? We don't need some amazing ESP-o-meter to measure psychic activity or anything like that. All that the "spiritual" crowd has to do is what they say they can do. Really now , how difficult can that be ? They have no problem taking money for it....but if a skeptic asks , well...that's different for some reason ? None have ever stepped forward to claim their monetary prize and when they have submitted to testing they've failed miserably. So yes , of course they're full of $hit (and the dollar sign serves as a double entendre here I might add as that seems to be the only real motivation for these peoples' claims of psychic ability)
Not a chance. I am happy to make it my personal mission in life to demand proof for these ridiculous claims from psychics and astrologers. Furthermore , I will advise and educate as many people as possible to this effect as well. There's nothing worse than seeing a child get sucked in by this spirituality nonsense instead of focusing on endeavours that might actually benefit humanity in some way.
SmilingSalmon,
Okay , name one. Name the case the psychic solved and how instrumental he or she was in solving it. Further , claims from psychics themselves will be dismissed outright as well as claims from believers. This shouldn't require any belief in fact ; If a psychic has even once managed to "solve" a case , this should be backed up by non-believers and believers alike as it would simply be an indisputable fact. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 8:09:10 AM | Someone mentioned 'What The Bleep Do We Know'. The people who did this movie are dishonest. The scientists that were interviewed have said that they were quoted out of context and do not support the conclusions that the movie draws.
I don't think that people who believe in the so-called paranormal are idiots, or even mostly frauds, or anything like that. However, we do know why sometimes people believe things that aren't actually true. "Remembering the hits and forgetting the misses." Yes, it really stand out the one time I thought someone was watching me and I turned around and someone was. But the time when you think someone is watching you, and you turn around and no one is around? We know that people forget these things. Human memory is fallible. People misremember things, and other people interpret the things they accurately remember wrong.
Many people here are talking about synchronisity. The two things happened together and therefore must be related. Humans are very good and detecting patterns, but the draw back to this ability is that we often detect more patterns than there really are.
Someone suggested that testing people with 'paranormal' abilities is like putting a random person in an adult movie shoot--they wouldn't be able to perform if they weren't ready. And yet, people do it all the time! Why don't we see the same thing? You just have to get people comfortable. Like performing a magic trick. I might not be able to on an international television show... But someone can. And if I practice and calmed myself, I probably could as well. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 8:59:35 AM |
SmilingSalmon,
Okay , name one. Name the case the psychic solved and how instrumental he or she was in solving it. Further , claims from psychics themselves will be dismissed outright as well as claims from believers. This shouldn't require any belief in fact ; If a psychic has even once managed to "solve" a case , this should be backed up by non-believers and believers alike as it would simply be an indisputable fact.
Ok, here is one for you, which describes several cases, written by a Marin County investigator that later retires and becomes partners with this psychic. They solved many cases together, none of which could have been solved without her help. They always sought her out, except for the first time. It even has contact phone numbers for your questioning pleasure.... Enjoy
When I get time I will get other info. I have heard and read of many. And you do not have to define science for me. I know exactly what science is. I do not consider psychic powers a science at all, where would you get such an idea? You are only confusing the issue. I also KNOW that there are maybe 70% or more who claim to be psychic that are fake. I never said they are all real. I do not believe that. I believe there are very few who have real ability to see psychicly. But real they are...
SS
Oops, forgot the url LOL
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/09/PNGV0EII1M1.DTL | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 9:29:15 AM |
Do you know how science works ? It seems pretty clear that you don't.
And with that comment it SEEMS pretty clear that you're arrogant...you're not even engaging my last comments...you're just repeating yourself...you clearly didn't retain my sentiments about people who try to make a living off of this stuff...
What do you think about my idea for a science experiment? Care to comment?
There's nothing worse than seeing a child get sucked in by this spirituality nonsense instead of focusing on endeavours that might actually benefit humanity in some way.
Better than getting sucked into a culture that embraces ego, greed, & arrogance...I'm not saying you're wrong for being skeptical...if you didn't notice...I mentioned that even I'm a little skeptical...but what's really frustrating is when you're so stubborn that it's impossible to engage in an intelligent argument.... | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 10:24:39 AM | I'm just curious how many of the people who believe in psychic phenomenon, spiritual powers, the supernatural etc., also believe in god. I ask this because I suspect that in most cases they go hand in hand. An ability to believe in one fantasy might mean one has the ability to believe in nearly any fantasy. Although I don't really think it's an ability but more of a condition, usually brought on by one's upbringing.  | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 11:55:27 AM | SmilingSamon,
Thank you for your post. But if you think that 70%+ psychics are fake, why do you believe this one in particular? I see no actual evidence that this lead to real case closures. But what I do see is an interview trying to sell a product--the psychic! Who has her own website where you can buy books and CDs... A question is begging to be asked in my mind: if she can solve crime and assumable make money doing it, why is she spending time making money do less important things?
Well, maybe you and I can at least agree she's greedy. I think this just throws her back story--which has no evidence--in a different light.
As for if belief in God and belief in other anti-science go hand in hand, I'm not sure I could say either way. Many people belief that psychics are gifts from either God or Satan, in which case, yes. But many other people fully believe and are committed to gods and goddesses but don't believe in things like this, which they consider irrational.
Like wise, some atheists believe in this stuff, but many don't.
Here's are the finding of the Christian research group Barna:
http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/164-new-research-explores-teenage-views-and-behavior-regarding-the-supernatural | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 65 | |
| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 1:57:06 PM |
the "natural" musical ability comment was kind of an inside joke because I know damn well what late's stance is on that subject....
It is thus:
- I accept that humans are innately creative (to different degrees).
- Innate creativity is often expressed in different artistic ways.
However -
- My personal experience as a musician (42 years), and recent neuro-research that has mapped out the difference between how trained musicians and untrained people experience music, tells me that:
This particular avenue of expressing art, "music" comes from both innate creativity and the innate hard-wired ability the brain has to perceive music, but the ability to express it is learned, not natural.
This was the point I was trying to make in that music thread.
but the draw back to this ability is that we often detect more patterns than there really are
Add to this, varying degrees of credulity mixed with conformation bias; et voilá, "proof".
...one man's meat is another man's tofu.
Ok, here is one for you, which describes several cases, written by a Marin County investigator that later retires and becomes partners with this psychic.
This is a cited source, yes. Can you find cites from law enforcement agency (not from a newspaper article about a private detective agency with a financial vested interest confirming bias), that confirms psychic help in solving crimes? If this practice is as ubiquitous as claimed, there should be a wealth of credible cites, or at least sayyy, a handful? | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 5:41:04 PM | You can call it whatever you want but there are a lot of happenstances I have lived through which begs to be related to the unexplained...
Some dreams that came way too close to reality to be called flukes.
I think that those things are link to your subconscious and your conscious cannot control them unless the intentions are accepted by your true self. May be one of the reasons why people can't perform on demand.
Of course a lot of them are crooks and I wouldn't trust someone who asked big sums of money as a person so in tuned with themselves should be satisfied with giving a helping hand...
What about the powers of meditation as to strengthen a healthy mind? | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 7:47:54 PM |
Of course a lot of them are crooks and I wouldn't trust someone who asked big sums of money as a person so in tuned with themselves should be satisfied with giving a helping hand...
I'm not sure why everyone thinks that a psychic should give their gifts freely. No one expects an artist, DR or musician to give away their knowledge or experience. A psychic spends time and energy doing what they do. They deserve to be paid for their time even if you think they are good counselors or just good entertainment.
And NO, I am not a psychic, although I have definitely experienced some things that seem to fit in the category. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 8:46:28 PM | - I accept that humans are innately creative (to different degrees).
- Innate creativity is often expressed in different artistic ways.
However -
- My personal experience as a musician (42 years), and recent neuro-research that has mapped out the difference between how trained musicians and untrained people experience music, tells me that:
This particular avenue of expressing art, "music" comes from both innate creativity and the innate hard-wired ability the brain has to perceive music, but the ability to express it is learned, not natural.
This was the point I was trying to make in that music thread.
My ideas on "spiritual powers" mirror that to a tee...the reason why they are unreliable is because nobody makes a serious effort to pick up that instrument....
Would ANY scientist in here care to comment on my idea for an experiment?
In case you missed it.....
All you have to do is take a sample of newborns...and instead of nurturing the logical brain...nurture the intuitive...reinforce their ultra sensitive intuitive minds....and I can almost guarantee you...you'd end up with a bunch of infallible psychic children....
I recently came across some interesting spiritual ideas that came from a guy who took a scientific approach while exploring his abilities to percieve different states of consciousness....and it's somewhat related to my ideas about nurturing the intuitive mind.....
http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html
If anyone's so inclined...take a look....the scientific approach came from the fact that he is an electrical engineer...so he had that mindset from the get go....you bet he was skeptical | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 9:27:08 PM | You can do that ~ approach it by the numbers with science.
but it transcends science. However, like a rent in a sweater , you may seek to capture a loose end to pull on and see what happens. ~ You now have the cause and the effect. From there, that point of "knowing", you might build an understanding of matters beyond measurement.
Faith and Will play an important part in all of this. ~ but they must be solid, absolute, no room for doubt.
I believe "power" is all around us. We only need to capture it. I can tell you for certain only when and where.
That being in the "Here & Now"
I see is hard to live in "your" past or future.
Capture the here and now, it's the only time and place that exist.
Dance | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 9:29:45 PM | Speaking from a daughter of a mother who had incredible talent and could play by ear by the time she was 4 years old the ability for a person to recognise a note has to be a more honed gift or we all would have it and we don't.
I have grown, used and harvested many herbs both medicinal and for culinary purposes and I can recognise the taste and smell in a soup or a mixture but I think this is something that I enjoyed therefore I became more attuned to it. Music is different.
I can humm a tune that my mom had never herd and she can find the note and set the music up as though she knew it all along. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 71 | |
| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 9:37:36 PM | My ideas on "spiritual powers" mirror that to a tee...the reason why they are unreliable is because nobody makes a serious effort to pick up that instrument.
Except for the fact that in the case of the trained musician/untrained layman, the differences are definable, mappable and repeatable in clinical neuro-science studies and published in peer-reviewed science journals devoted to understanding the brain. So far, any such clinical studies concerning (confirmation of) ESP have not been published in peer-reviewed science journal devoted to understanding the brain. If you have any credible cites, I'd love to see them.
Like I said, I'm a true epistemological/empirical-skeptic in regards to this question in as much as "epistemological/empirical skeptic" means: "one who questions the reliability of certain kinds of claims by subjecting them to a systematic investigation" (the epistemological disclaimer relating to importance of "meaning" in the language chosen to describe both "claims" and "findings", ie: the difference between opinion and perceptual observations.
Edit:
It's been a few years since I read one of Woodrow's posts,
...to use the word "eloquent" is to utter an understatement. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 9:49:40 PM | If you are going to totally dismiss that the cases cited in this article are from and with the police force, not the NOW retired investigator, then it doesn't matter what you read, you are going to say it says blue when it says red. I didn't expect any different. Some people NEVER admit they are wrong.
I have the right to believe and you have the right to disbelieve, but be an adult and stop calling people stupid.
Okay, I'll bite. First off though, let me assure you I'm not going to call you stupid. If it sounds as though I'm intimating it, apologies, but I'm really not. You're right, and have the right to believe whatever you would like, as Annette Martin has the right to free speech, and say whatever she likes...
Who's Annette Martin? We'll get to that...
You see, these 'spiritual' powers are often what adults believe are actual physical phenomena because of what they speak to, not what they accomplish. It's nice to think that we can read each others' minds, or are connected to people to know of their death (which is simple mathematics to explain the story of the women who dreams of a death in the family and then finds out it happened...laws of large numbers and all that, but nevermind).
People want to believe it is true, and so will go to any length to ignore basic reality to further that belief.
And some of these 'powers' do exist, it's just the reason they exist isn't 'spiritual'. The power of prayer, is a perfect example. It works, shown and proven in peer-reviewed scientific medical journals. Patients who have people praying for them do better...with one caveat. They need to know they're being prayed for.
Why is that important? Because the effect is the same as the sugar pill affect. Placebo. The mind can be a better doctor than doctors sometimes.
So anyway...spiritual beliefs are just that...spiritual. They reside in a soul, or a mind, or whatever you want to call it as a set of faiths, and should not be confused with acts or abilities in the physical realm. Nor should people want them to be.
Which brings us to Annette. She's the 'psychic' that helped the investigator in the article you quoted/linked. And she's made quite a business out of the one case that she is most famous for...that one she put a circle on a map and low and behold...a missing (dead) 71 year old man was found.
But a few things on that case...from what I read, the lady in question asks many questions of the police officer, who gives her all manner of info, and some of that may very well made sense to her, enough for an educated guess on an area. Or she got lucky...lucky, I'm afraid, isn't spiritual power, unless you point to yourself immediately after and say "see? Spiritual power...that's me...". Others would have said "Wow, lucky break" and that's that.
Another of her cases involved saying that a man would be arrested for a murder in another state wearing white...in about a year. And that happened. But what is never reported is how many other details did she give that were wrong (He'll be on a motorcycle, he has a beard, etc.). The wrong answers are conveniently forgotten, and the right ones pointed out...it's called retrofitting and very common.
Studies have been done with criminal psychics and college students (the control). The psychics apparently will ask many more questions about a crime, but are right about the same amount of time.
So, really, while I'm sort of debunking your pyschic, I'm not really, am I...but of course, I can't prove she isn't a psychic. You can't prove a negative (rhetoric 101) which those who point to single examples of sketchy detailed 'proof' will fall back on...I can't prove she isn't.
As an aside (and as horrid as this will sound, it's just a means to make a point, I'm not accusing of anything)...you can't prove you've never had intimate relations with a goat. Sure, you can tell me you haven't, and you can probably account for a great amount of your time with witnesses and all that...but you can't prove you never have...and so there's the problem. You can't prove a negative.
For the record, my personal belief is that you are as likely to be guilty of the above mentioned transgression as Annette or any other psychic possesses real 'spiritual' powers to catch crooks.
I'm not (and frankly, while people will call things stupid or people stupid for that matter...) calling you unintelligent for believing this stuff...just misdirected and unaware of what 'proof' means in a modern, science-based reality. It's not an article in the San Francisco chronicle. Proof is repeatable, predictable and measurable. It is this very necessity of proof that makes spiritual beliefs an impossible match for it.
In the world of the physical, that is to say, the world of you and I. There are unknowns in science but there is no 'fit' for the powers that are based on anything more than conjecture. To the people who point to the uncertainties of physics, and quanta (or multidimensional branes and string theory for that matter), you can 'fit' spiritual power in to those things but only based on an incomplete understanding of the scientific principles that went into their discovery. There is no scientist, no physicist nor any other formally trained scientist who has proven or published any kind of experimental or theoretical proof in an established scientific, peer-reviewed journal in the history of modern science of spiritual powers as they have been described here . For now, the San Francisco Chronicle, and occasional A&E specials, will have to suffice. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 10:06:06 PM | VandersMark---I went to the site - stayed about 30 minutes.
I sort of got stuck on OBE's . That sent me off the site .
I think I will pass on it in the future but you enjoy just not for me.
If any others go there I would like thier opinion- I can be wrong
as anyone can.
I am not a scientist but will comment on the experiment.
The very thought of experimenting with newborns in any way
is the most cruel and disgusting idea to enter any mind. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 10:16:53 PM | Okey Cyke - Yes I believe in God--I don't personally know anyone that does not.
I also believe in Spiritual Powers--I have many reasons to believe.
I don't believe in fantasy. I don't believe anything until it is proven to me.
Heck I'm not even sure a man has walked on the moon. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/11/2009 10:20:39 PM | I'll comment on the experiment, not astral projection which is just another 'flavour' of spiritual powers.
The experiment he suggests is unrealistic, as you point out, because an ethics committee would never (rightly so) allow such a thing...however...
It could be done.
Take a set of mice, from birth...let them suckle until they are ready to eat on their own...
And then put them in a cage where they can learn to choose between two doors for food. Decide what qualifies as intuitive, which is wholly impossible, as far as I can tell for humans, let alone mice but whatever...
Then test them...one control group would be given a clue from a physical sense (say smell), and one door has the smell of food on it, one doesn't. If they go to the wrong door for the food (the one with no smell) then they aren't fed. Repeat. I guarantee you the mice will be fat and healthy and happy on day two.
Take the experimental group...let them use their intuition...see how many live out the month.
Experiment finished.
and for god's sake...
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html | |
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