| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 1:49:38 PM | When I posted that, what I had in mind is how Goldmind uses tricks where he makes the other person choose a certain card or number when the person thinks they have chosen it all by themselves. I figure that this type of tricks may be utilized by Chriss Angel and the such. It would make certain tricks be more veritable as, without the use of mind trickery that makes the audience choose the card you want, the only way the trick could be without actual magic is if the audience was a part of it and everything was prearranged. With the use of such mind trick, where you make the audience pick what you wanted, those tricks are still tricks but at least its not just all acting...
I find this to be detrimental to my thread because I am interested in spiritual powers and was interested in accounts of such....
There are still a few interesting accounts on here but mentioning Goldmind and Chriss Angel kind of derailed the train of thoughts a little. Even if I had explained exactly what I meant, it would have only gone against what I was looking for. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 127 | |
| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 1:57:56 PM |
mentioning Goldmind and Chriss angel kind of derailed the train of thoughts a little.
The reason I stated is still valid - credulity - Mentalists use the exact same methods that scammers posing as psychics use, and they do fool a lot of people. To the point that they refuse to notice that Mentalists are actually quite a bit more accurate than the scam artists.
There are also many who are aware of the damage done to those whose credulity leads them to lose not just money, but make ill-advised choices in life regarding serious health problems, the numbers are in the millions. This is a very (if not the most) significant factor that motivates skeptics.
I find this to be detrimental to my thread because I am interested in spiritual powers and was interested in accounts of such....
Once an OP is posted on this forum, it belongs to all to participate in, there's no "my thread".
There are still a few interesting accounts on here
But, none that satisfy even a minimal burden of proof. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 2:40:09 PM | None that satisfy the minimal burden of proof to you because you do not believe what they are saying. However, if you had experienced certain of the things mentioned on certain posts it would satisfy a burden of proof to you; if only just a little.
I do agree that a lot of it is scam and can be detrimental but I also believe that there are certain phenomenon that can only be explained by ESP. It is sometimes in the small things but, to me, there is certainly something out there.
There is a poster who asked why people keep on saying that psychics shouldn't charge when it is a service and such. The reason I see is that, to me, psychic abilities are linked to the true self and, in the case of the true self being good: good wants to be good and not drain people's accounts... In the case of the true self being bad well you wouldn't want to deal with those anyway...
Yeah, yeah, it's the people's thread; blah, blah, fuc*in blah... it was detrimental to my purpose you genius | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 129 | |
| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 4:16:10 PM | None that satisfy the minimal burden of proof to you because you do not believe what they are saying.
I've said it before, I'll say it again - I'm open to the possibility of some form of ESP, (for the same reason the Drake equation points to there being a probability of {ET}life in the universe), at the same time, I realize that there is a dialectic definition of proof as well as a logical one, ...either proof will do, neither is exclusive to me and are free of any bias.
(Speaking of the Drake equation, no proof yet, either)
I do agree that a lot of it is scam and can be detrimental but I also believe that there are certain phenomenon that can only be explained by ESP. It is sometimes in the small things but, to me, there is certainly something out there.
The problem is, ignoring well-founded and reasoned explanations in favour of bias. You should have an open mind, consider the Law of Parsimony and Okkam's Razor.
Law of Parsimony
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
~ roughly translated as "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity."
Occam's razor
~ the principle (attributed to William of Occam) that in explaining a thing no more assumptions should be made than are necessary.
However, if you had experienced certain of the things mentioned on certain posts it would satisfy a burden of proof to you; if only just a little.
But, I have experienced things as mentioned by others, things have happened in ways that I wanted them to, Hunches have panned out, predictions have come true... But, when I consider the "Law of Parsimony", I am forced to consider explanations for these things that are in fact, in the natural world, ...and find many logical, plausible, probable and convincing explanations without having to resort to fallacious logic. The way the human brain processes music is a new area of study that intrigues me, and from it I have found tons of reality based natural explanations of things I already thought were true. But, if I where to believe them outright without reason to, I would be guilty of conformation bias. As such, I would have nothing objective to point to to back my argument.
I still have an open mind, but only in the epistemological definition of the term, as it's one "without bias".
open-minded
adjective
willing to consider new ideas; unprejudiced.
~ New Oxford Dictionary
To dismiss any of my arguments out of mere bias is just a red herring, I'm not asking for anything unreasonable as proof, nor will I accept anything unreasonable as proof.
There is a poster who asked why people keep on saying that psychics shouldn't charge when it is a service and such. The reason I see is that, to me, psychic abilities are linked to the true self and, in the case of the true self being good: good wants to be good and not drain people's accounts... In the case of the true self being bad well you wouldn't want to deal with those anyway...
As this type of explanation involves circular reasoning, ad hoc propter hoc, and syllogistic fallacies, I deal with it by acknowledging that it's based in faulty reasoning.
Again, I'm open to the idea of are minds being capable of something "more", but, this doesn't mean I'm going to eschew the reasoning process that we all know the human mind is capable of.
it was detrimental to my purpose
Yet, still very germane to the discussion. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 4:49:31 PM | I'm struggling with this. Is a dialectic definition of proof seperate from empiricism?
With regard to psychics and payment I'm not convinced of the circular argument. One would have to be wary of paying someone who has but doesn't admit to having the power of telekinesis. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 131 | |
| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 5:12:44 PM |
Is a dialectic definition of proof seperate from empiricism
Different scale really, as logic is part of the dialectic process, but that's the point. One involves pure statement of reason the other involves the exchange of reasoning to arrive at a truth. The way I intended it to mean any way. (I wish there was a shrug emoticon).
One would have to be wary of paying someone who has but doesn't admit to having the power of telekinesis.
Still a circular argument, specifically petitio principi as the conclusion and premise must both be conclusions - lex parsimoniae | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 5:25:32 PM | | I don't want to divert this thread off topic into philosophy, but I'm not convinced that the argument is circular (it could be argued that all premise contain a conclusion). By this I mean that there might be good empirical evidence to class someone as a psychic whilst they actually might posess telekinetic powers. A person with telekentic powers might go under the guise of a psychic to obtain money. Lex parsimoniae applies as much to terminology as it does to evidence. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 133 | |
| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 5:32:19 PM |
By this I mean that there might be good empirical evidence to class someone as a psychic whilst they actually might posess telekinetic powers.
To avoid the the fallacy, it's necessary to present the "good empirical evidence" first to establish the rest of the proposition.
Lex parsimoniae applies as much to terminology as it does to evidence.
Concise is better no?
This is the purpose of terminology representing the much more "wordy" explanation. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 5:41:46 PM | Whether they exist or not doesn't really matter to me as I find the medium entertaining and that's all it need be
I enjoy Sylvia Browne very much and at one time would have gladly paid for a reading
Not so now ~ there's not really anything I'm dying to know | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/25/2009 5:48:35 PM | I am in general agreement with you on those points but my slight philosophical misgivings can't be articulated well at this time of night , though I am sure we could debate this much further.
I believe in spiritual powers and I can assure you that I have applied Ockhams Razor to an experience that I've had. I have to concede that not everybody does apply OR, and there are some who will immediatly go for the 'spiritual powers' option.
Anyway, I'm off to bed, after having a shave! | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 6:33:45 AM |
You have no idea if God exists or not...
Of course I do. God does not exist.
I'll have to agree with you on that ~ all of your notions of God don't exist.
I don't want to divert this thread off topic into philosophy, but I'm not convinced that the argument is circular (it could be argued that all premise contain a conclusion). By this I mean that there might be good empirical evidence to class someone as a psychic whilst they actually might possess telekinetic powers.
Hmm? well we need to all be discussing the same thing but more often then not, we do go around in circles as notions of a spiritual deity and matters of spirit are attempted to be discussed. The brainwashing of religion and preconceived notions makes it most difficult.
That religion attempted to "humanize" such matters of spiritual power, getting us off on the wrong foot from the offset. We need to bear in mind early religions had a simple minded audence it was attempting to appeal to. They were not ready to hear of a 9 dimensional universe, or of E=MC square. So magic, mircles and virgins giving birth to a God Child much easier to sell. So humanizing was both practical and effective. That most religions still do this and are still built on a bedrock of "faith" is no accident. For "faith" in convictions is what allowed you to tap into the world of spirit.
So what many of us seem to end up with is ~ a false concept and stunted spiritual understanding of the world around you. ~ Something that offers much confusion and only works " a little bit"! sometimes. ~ It all hit and miss, until you get close enough to correct that is starts working for you, as you get closer to finding the door. ~
You are given many hints along the way, but it's your work and for you to do. No one can do it for you.
Wide is the path and narrow is the way
Knock and the door will open, ~ seek and you will find ~ ask and it will be given.
It was never intended for the life of human kind to be a bed of roses
just consider it "Summer Camp" and enjoy yourself and be happy with the time spent there.
Dance | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 2:17:11 PM | | Me and My buddy had an in depth conversation about this once, He felt that the theory of we only use 10% of our brains is the key to those powers. He said that if we could find a way to use the other 90% we all as human beings will be connected as one and we will not need computers and cell phones to communicate, we will be able to walk to through walls, and have mind control, almost living gods as he said. Listening to him i thought maybe it could be possible, I mean for instance, have we ever been thinking about someone we know real hard and you call that person up and the first thing they say is" OH MY GOD I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT YOU!!!!" It does make one think. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 2:48:38 PM | ...Telepathy, premonition, mind over matter and such. Do you have any experiences which make it so you tend to believe in those things?...
I do not but I can see how people do.
After a weekend of waterkiing / parting at a friends cottage it is tradition for everyone to go to the local greasy spoon and have brunch.
I was sitting having brunch and I had the weirdest feeling that something fairly big had happed but could not put my finger on it.
I voiced this to the group at the table, so the discussion began of what it could be and after abut 5 minutes of conversation it came to me and I blurted out that Lady Dianna was dead.
They all laughed.
I ask the waitress for that days paper and on the front page there it was she was dead.
All of a sudden I felt I may have some type of ESP, it freaked me out as much as it did the rest of the table.
So then we started to discuss how would that be possible.
This is what I believe happened.
Being one of the last ones to go to bed at the cottage has its downside, one of is you are probably not getting a bed but have to crash on a coach, which was my case.
Stereo was left on all night.
I must have heard it during a news report and it did not resister in my conscious until later in the day.
IMO
ESP does not exist but lack of explanations or people willing to accept them is what keeps it alive. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 4:49:57 PM | That's interesting!
and it makes a lot of sense too. ~ We do that , take in data and really don't assimulate it at the moment we take it in. But it comes to us ~ later.
We hear people say " I'll sleep on it" and I think sometimes we do. ~
I hold off making decisions (if I can) until the next morning. It's my best time of day for "good decisions"
Myself and friends went to Remmington Field one year to bet on the ponies. I was green at it ~ but it looked simple enough. ~ The favored horse pays poor odds ~ not knowing much about horses back then, I looked them over anyway! ~ That didn't reveal much to me either. ~ So as post time grew near, I studied the racing forum. ~ For 5 dollars I bought more info about the horses and their past that was racing that day. I listen to my friends and all the excitement of others as the races started . ~ Win , place , show ? ~ trifecta?
I lose every race , nothing ! not so much as a "show" from the hammer heads I picked.
5th Race coming up ~ a symacast from the Kentucky Derby ~ and it's raining there !
It hit me like a brick! Go-for -Gin to win! I knew it! I don't know how ~ but I knew it and she paid 8 to 1. ~ She's a mud runner and she gonna win! So I race to the betting clerk booth. ~ Laid down all I had, leaving only enough to get home in case I might be wrong.
It was an exciting race for the beginning to the end, Go-for-Gin hung back deep in the pocket, coming around the last curve she broke out and challenged two leading contenders that were running nose to nose, in the flat she came alive like a mud plow and beat them by a length.
I was happy ! very happy ~ this happen one more time that day in the 7th race. ~ I knew! ~ the rest of my bets ~ I was guessing ~ but these two races , somehow , I just knew.
I seemed to seen it happen before it happened.
I've other stories ~ but this one is the most fun to tell.
Dance | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 142 | |
| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 5:09:24 PM | ^^^^^ See: "Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy".
<div class="quote">Me and My buddy had an in depth conversation about this once, He felt that the theory of we only use 10% of our brains is the key to those powers.
The "theory" that we only use 10% of our brain is a myth. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 144 | |
| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 6:00:02 PM |
Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy?
In ignoring the bets that didn't win to give special circumstances to the winning bet.
The Texas sharpshooter fallacy is a logical fallacy in which information that has no relationship is interpreted or manipulated until it appears to have meaning. The name comes from a story about a Texan who fires several shots at the side of a barn, then paints a target centered on the hits and claims to be a sharpshooter...The fallacy is related to the "clustering illusion", which refers to the tendency in human cognition to interpret patterns in randomness where none actually exist. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 6:27:23 PM | I've read that too ~ about the % of the brain not being used ~ the argument is not conclusive the way I read it. ~ They are really not sure about this inactive portion of the brain ~ but feel it assist the active portion. ~ I never read it to be a good argument for or against the notion it has some greater purpose.
In my studies of "studies" of human anatomy , it's rare to find something that takes up space and requires blood flow and we don't know what it's for, what it's purpose, it usually quit clear, this part of the brain being the exception.
I really don't know and have no problem saying ~ I just don't really know but it's odd.
I know that we have to be "open" to ever permit anything "in" ~ For most of us , we are so busy with internal dialogue ~ It takes a MACK truck to get our attention. We are desensitized to the world around us. ~ The signals are there ~ we are being broadcast to but we are not receiving, ~~ but a few things.
There is people that work with animals and plants that 'hear" (for the like of a better word) for they don't really hear, ~ them. They just know what the plant or animal wants. They broadcast their needs.
These people can tell you wants about to happen. ~ How can you see without looking , how can you hear without sound? How can you know something that you had no prior knowledge? ~ How can I see something for the first time yet have memories of it before?
I don't know. How can I dream another man dream and be able to tell him (just some) parts of his dream the next day ~ tell him enough to scare the Bezzesus out of him, as you tell him he is sad because he screwed is friend and neighbor out of his share of a fire truck they bought together and the deal went sour. (setting; at sea for weeks with a crew of four men, two up/ two down , 24/7)
How does things like that happen? ~ I really don't know. Does it offer insights as to what's possible? ~ I think so.
Texas sharp shooter ? good point! one explaination for sure. ~ But does that explain the the excitement in the Go-for-Gin choice before she raced ? ~ You would have to assume I embellished my confidence in the choice yet I bet it all ! which validated my confidence in my choice ~ did it not?
Dance | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 7:16:32 PM | There's no convincing them they decided they don't believe in it and they are sticking to it. They bring out all of those fancy thoughts to say that they are the ones being "open minded" but they are closed to this. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 7:49:08 PM | have we ever been thinking about someone we know real hard and you call that person up and the first thing they say is" OH MY GOD I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT YOU!!!!" It does make one think.
I wonder how many times you called that person and you were the last thing on their mind. People don't pay attention to those times. There is a word that describes most of these things...coincidence. I'm a firm believer in coincidences, they happen to me all the time. 
Weird things happen to all of us. It's just that most of us think..'that's weird...or...what a coincidence'. Those prone to magical thinking take them as evidence of what they desperately want to believe. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 148 | |
| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 8:08:17 PM | There's no convincing them they decided they don't believe in it and they are sticking to it.
Nope, a true skeptic is open to both possibilities, this is a must to avoid confirmation bias and credulity. No amount of eye-rolling is going to change this. The decision to "not believe": is based on reasoning, critical thinking, logic, ...not credulity or confirmation bias.
They bring out all of those fancy thoughts to say that they are the ones being "open minded" but they are closed to this.
Nothing fancy about critical thinking, logic or reason it's actually quite simple. The point is to not presuppose based on "wanting" something to be true. I would love for there to be ESP, it would be a boon to pretty much every human activity if it were true. In order to keep an "open mind" One must base conclusions on evidence, ...not the other way around. The irony here is that most who ask others to have an "open mind" are really asking for people to have an "open mind" about closed mindedness.
~ about the % of the brain not being used ~
"Evidence would show over a day you use 100 percent of the brain" Dr. John Henley, neurologist; Mayo Clinic
" Though an alluring idea, the 10 percent myth is so wrong it is almost laughable" Barry Gordon , neurologist; Johns Hopkins School of Medicine.
Texas sharp shooter ? good point! one explaination for sure ... You would have to assume I embellished my confidence in the choice yet I bet it all !
No, that's the value of being able to identify fallacies in logic, I don't have to make any assumptions, I just do the math. | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 8:40:39 PM | Explain the math to me on the sharing dreams one...
This as happen to me and childhood friend on more than one occasion. I would go to him and start explaining a dream and he would finish it for me with a weird look on his face or the other way around... It became frequent enough that we shared dreams often because sometimes we had had the same dream... | |
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| What do you think of spiritual powers? Do they exist?
Posted: 8/26/2009 8:44:29 PM | and what does the math say? I see no logic ~ I see no fallacy ~ I see no conclusion. I make no statement but tell a story.
since you are unassuming ~ what are you saying? ~ I just don't know? or I know. or Hmm ? Golly Gee Wally?
In any case, ~ I enjoyed your sharp shooter story. ~ I'm stealing it! I'd heard it before but forgot it over the years ~ We do create facts to fit what pleases us most.
Dance | |
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