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Posted: 8/7/2009 10:47:04 AM | Attendance allowance also can give people access to pension credit and benefits such as council tax benefit
So some people stand to lose a lot more than £47 a week
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/jul/29/attendance-allowance-support
Gladys Humphries, 82, from Lowestoft in Suffolk, is blind and cares for her husband James, 83, who has severe Alzheimer's disease. Her attendance allowance not only pays for taxis for hospital appointments but opened the door to pension credit and council tax benefit, resulting in an extra £150 a week. If it were scrapped she would lose all this money and would not be able to care for her husband, since she would not qualify for a social care grant.
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Posted: 8/7/2009 10:52:08 AM | One problem I have with giving the money to the Social Services is cost. When my father was sent home from hospital the Social services arranged a Carer at £12 per hour.
He was disgusted when he found out that the Carer was only being paid the minimum wage less than half what he was being charged.
We cancelled the Carer and employed one ourselves, who we found by recommendation; he was more than happy to receive a decent wage and did a wonderful job answerable directly to the person he was helping.
Keep bureaucracy to the minimum!!!
Value the carers and pay them a decent wage, to all the cynics out there, it's by far the cheapest option.
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Posted: 8/7/2009 1:38:34 PM | Ive just received an email via the woman mentioned in the o.p informing me that susan wade, conservative party official for york central, has comfired the tories will be fighting this! Dont forget david cameron had a disabled child so knows the stress and how the system works. Good on the tories  | |
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Posted: 8/8/2009 5:17:19 AM | | Also if you read the green paper link on the site you will alot of hidden jargon.Here are some examples. 1/Att allowance/ disability benifits which will include dla.2/They say for only new claiments however lets look at incap that was only suposed to be for new claiments but is been filtered in for old claiments now 3/The cost will work out more than keeping it as it 4/Social services budgets for will be given by the goverment will be used by local goverment at discretion so there will be cuts guaranteed.It cant work and we wont let Brown and his cronies get away with this.. | |
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Posted: 8/10/2009 11:34:30 PM | This is horrible!
I realize I am not enlightened on this subject but should be if
you can enlighten me I would appreciate it
questions:
1-Is it to my understanding you are saying the government will not issue
the disabled person their own funds anymore any of them?
2-And all will be controlled by social services the government?
Or are you saying the disabled persons helper's funds? or what?
can you explain for me please?
3-I am confused on this and please forgive my no knowledge here
What does dla mean?
exp: epilepsy tonic seizures drop seizures nocturnal seizures
with heart issues low vision
4-this person will loose all of their disabilty funds going straight to social services to control??
Obviously if this happens this person will be more so harmed
As the control feeling can trigger more seizures from stress and detaining them proper medical care causing seizures Some seizure med reactions can be fatal and need
prompt attention
I believe many disabled may die from this poor decision if this is what is happening
5-With living in such a remote area now no epilpesy center near
if the above is true then shouldn't this person with epilepsy relocate to a place with an epilepsy center close by or wait to see what the government does?
how horrible! | |
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Posted: 8/11/2009 2:06:21 AM | 1. Yes the government will give the money to social services instead.
2. The carers allowence which disabled/elderly with a.a get to pay for there care will go to social services if they get there way.
3. Disability living allowence when you help in looking after your needs.
4. See point 1.
5. I very much doubt they will move anybody, yes it will cost lives and cost the country billions so must be stopped. | |
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Posted: 8/11/2009 2:29:44 AM | This is his way of impowering the disabled?
I often wondered what he meant with these words
he wants to empowering the disabled
leaving skeptical wonders of his future plans for the disabled
as he spoke these words during the election only to win votes?
and now he is unimpowering the disabled for more pain and further suffering with
poor care and no care and controls the disabled against their own will
how sad and uncaring for the disabled for them to pool their funds
as the gov will make decisons on it without their input
will this create a loss of true self and identity?
:( :( :( :( | |
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Posted: 8/11/2009 3:35:59 AM | No my question is do you think a disabled person should move soon
before this terrible control is done on them? for better care now?
due to possiblities of not being able to move to better care later on?
I do realize the government would never help a disabled person out moving
to better health care
I am disabled and scared of my future | |
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Posted: 8/11/2009 8:19:07 AM | i have epilepsy and want to move to near an epilepsy center bigger city
as the hospital near me has a bad rep I raised my kids here due to my exs job
and now they just left elsewhere it has been in the making for me leave here anyway
I am so concerned if I stay here I might get stuck here with no real epilepsy help | |
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Posted: 8/11/2009 9:39:36 AM | thank you for enlightening me about what is going on sadly enough
Just like my seizures I try to deny it all for my survival
I am also blind in one eye and poor vision in the other
so it takes me quite awhile to read an email and understand it between
seizures an low vision
I just called up a few government places and they are not aware of this green paper
yet what you said I got in touch with a friend and he confirmed what you
are saying that all benefits from the disabled will be taken away and controlled
by the local social security offices
who knows if a roof will be over my head tomorrow
is the govn purposely pushing us out of our own homes for their own power control? :( | |
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Posted: 8/13/2009 12:02:24 PM | Please believe me, I am trying to tread sensitively here with a genuine question in a search for knowledge:
The State cannot afford to continue to pay Attendance and some Disability Allowances in the future. The Green Paper - which is a discussion paper and has a consultation period for representations to be made, although it was devised after taking evidence from interested parties and nationwide focus groups - puts forward one way in which, by setting up a National Care Service (NOT Social Services), it feels money can be used more appropriately for those needing care.
How can a working population reduced by three-quarters as a proportion of those not working (19:1 down to 4:1 in case my maths is wrong) continue to support those needing care if we continue funding that care in exactly the same way as before?
If you are against the Green Paper proposals, what are your suggestions to enable funding for those needing care to continue? | |
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Posted: 8/13/2009 12:43:56 PM | The question should be, why carnt the government afford it? Im sure the whole forum can name things the government has wasted money and fecked up and not by a few million quid either! So why are the disabled and the elderly gonna be the ones who have to pay the price? National care service will be the s.s the government just rebrands like im sure you know how thats done with the job centre lol how many new images has that had and a what cost?
so how can a disabled person be cared for cheaper then 53.10 a week? Bearing in mind most need care 24/7 ... They carnt! Unless they cut back on services thus people will die! How many will be employed by the n.c.s? Wages? Training? All for less then the 53.10 i very much doubt it. | |
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Posted: 8/13/2009 12:58:21 PM | | Well lets see how about the fat cat payments and robbed money by the greedy bankers the fraudalent claims by mps for expenses the waste in admin right through the system to name a few.That would go along way to clawing back money they dont need for the most vulnerable in society.x.So its ok to attack the most vulnerable in society to pay for the fat cat pay but not ok to let the most vulnerable to keep there money.Oh and another few why can we find all the money to pay abroad to other countries and the thousands per hour to pay for being in the European union and all the money for people coming in this country who see a land who will give to them and take from there own.Oh and the figures do report that this scheme would end up costing more as well.Carers save this country billions a year as it is so lets take away the carer and disabled person money and give it to services that dont work to be swallowed up in administration fat cat parties and expenses foreigners who dont come here to work but live off the state and get a house far better than the ave British born person benifits and car given them eh and so on.Dont meddle with what isnt broken unless you new labour who want to take from the poor to sort out the fat cats greed and fraud.Why dont the goverment just ship us all out and start a new Australia and hand the money to the preachers of hate and the people who try to kill us yet are allowed to stay here.x.Yes sarcasm.Before we get the pc brigade I am not racist.I have friends from every race creed colour faith.I have friends from these 'groups' who are sick of all the foreigners coming in cos they get damned all the same just as the minority of scroungers get us genuine disabled damned as being all the same | |
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Posted: 8/13/2009 1:47:40 PM | I get Disability middle rate for my daughter, the money gets spent on Private tutor's, after school activities to help my daughter socialise and this sort of thing, also goes towards to payments of our car as she doesn't get the mobility payment.
I wouldn't object to them cutting it slightly but to take it all away to give to social services would be criminal!! SS dont have any involvement with my daughter so how could she benefit?
Attendance allowence I can understand more, even then, should be a cut, not take all of it.
I work for a company paid by SS and the clients for homecare, I have people who recieve over £70 a week AA plus a pension, yet are bed ridden and have all rents etc paid on top. Maybe this is too much as these people have no way of spending that type of money coming in weekly. | |
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Posted: 8/13/2009 3:11:52 PM | | Have you cared for anyone on Att Allowance?.There needs are just as much if not more even bed ridden.S.S do not go in fulltime and those on att allowance do have an assessment of earnings done and have to pay towards.They still have the same bills if not more as of more bed changing equaling high electric reg nightwear changes and son.There food has to be paid for etc x Re my previous sarcy reply.Case proven.The new leader of The RBOS has been given a golden hello 7 billion hand shake.See my last post | |
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Posted: 8/13/2009 3:17:03 PM | Some people on attendance allowance don't get help with rent or council tax, my gran is one of them because she has a small works pension, so that and her other pension combined mean that she has to pay full rent and council tax. She also isn't bedridden.
I'd be happier about any of this if I didn't know that this Govt spend billions per year on other issues, both here and abroad.
Plus if the excuse is that it's because the UK is in recession, this Govt put us there.
It's a disgrace to take money off the most vulnerable in society. Why not withdraw benefits from the people who earn fortunes per year and can still claim certain state benefits.
Such as child benefit? Why not means test that as well, why pick on the elderly? | |
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Posted: 8/13/2009 3:23:13 PM | OK, I am half-way through reading the Green Paper and I have established this:
There is going to be a need for more money to be spent on care. Demographics make this inevitable. The Green Paper addresses what care should there be, how to get the care and how to pay for the care.
Once a person's needs have been assessed that assessment stays whichever Local Authority area they move to. This is an improvement on the current situation where, if you move, you have to have another assessment by the new LA. The assessment will look at the NHS, mental health team, housing, occupational support contributions as well as the LA services.
A certain and given proportion of the costs of those needs will be paid by the State, the actual amount though will vary from LA to LA as costs in e.g. Central London will vary to those in e.g. Piddletrenthide, Dorset.
People will be given control of this budget. They can take the whole of it in cash and pay for the services themselves or they can allow the LA to use it to provide the services - this could, I suppose, prove cheaper, but a person will have that choice, and they will know how much they have to spend.
The changes will be brought in so that those currently receiving funding will continue to receive that i.e. those on benefits will continue to receive those benefits.
The major major change I can see - so far - is the way the money is raised to pay for this fundamental change.
If a person is currently paying for food, fuel, rent or mortgage, then they should continue to pay those bills if they need long-term care. Those with no capital and no work will continue to receive support for those costs.
A majority of people consulted for the Green Paper thought that people should not have to pay for their own care and support needs. A whacking 88% of people believed that the costs for care should be paid before you need it, not when or after you need it - i.e. a general levy or tax on all those who are in a group such as pensioners who are most likely to need care. Care and support for younger people should continue to be a responsibility of the state through its general taxation.
The current group of over-60s are the wealthiest generation this country has ever seen. But there is then the lovely quote: It is difficult to balance protecting the savings of the frugal and helping the feckless. The whole funding debate created the most disagreement and indecision across all the focus groups that met.
So far I can't understand what the outrage is about, it all seems modestly sensible and empowering, but I haven't read the money bit yet. I suspect that is where the sticking point lies, and from the Introduction's summary I think it is going to be the bit where everyone who expects to live beyond 65 will need to sit up and take notice because I get the feeling it's going to hit us all, whether we currently need care and support or not - and whether we ever will need care or not.
That I think is another post for another day unless someone else wants to have a good look at the Green Paper and summarise:
http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_102732.pdf
Oh, and PS it's not "why can't the Government afford it?" The Government can only afford what the country is prepared to pay into the national coffers through taxation. The question is "why can't we afford it? And this Green Paper was in the planning from before the recession... | |
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Posted: 8/14/2009 8:52:45 AM | | There's a bloke across the road from me who has a disabled badge in his car and it get's my goat especially when I see him out running or heading off to the gym. In fact , I have slashed his tyres on more than one occasion just so he knows that people in the neighbourhood are well aware of what he's up to and aren't happy about it. To top it all he is a right miserable so and so and never has a nice word to say to anybody unlike his lovely wife who I always stop to have a chat with should I see her sat out in the front garden in her wheelchair. | |
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Posted: 8/14/2009 12:12:02 PM | This thread has turned into a plea for support for a petition, and I don’t believe in signing petitions when I don’t know what I am supporting. I have therefore turned to the Green Paper to see what it said when linked to what posters have put in this thread. Having looked at the implications for funding these reforms, I take this Green Paper seriously which is why I have read it all the way through and am trying to contribute thoughtfully and positively to this thread. I could apologise for the length of the post or the multiple quotes in this post, but I think that both are justified, so I won’t.
Msg 61:
gives me to think your in the labour party and a offical in disguise
No and no. I have posted openly enough in this Forum for posters to know I work in a Jobcentre, but that does not mean I do or I don’t support Labour, nor that I support “the Government” in all its actions. I like to believe that I can and do think for myself.
Msg 62:
i take it your not disabled
Can I return to this point later?
OP:
instead of the people receiving the money, social services will get it instead
Msg 20:
at present, if i want to go swimming i can phone a taxi, pick up a mate or relative go to the pool, pay for them, buy them a pint or sandwich after, then return and pay out my own money.
Green Paper:
Under the new care and support system, once people are assessed they will get a personal budget rather than being told what services they should receive (…) Some people will choose to take their budget as cash and pay for everything directly themselves (…) People may choose to pay for a football season ticket and transport with a friend to get there safely, rather than paying to attend a day centre on a specific day.
Msg 11:
imagine old doris, used to get help from a young mum whose shes befriended, she used to help her and make her a cuppa etc. Now the government wont let doris keep her allowence who she used to give to the girl
Green Paper:
(…) we want to ensure that people receiving any of the relevant benefits at the time of reform would continue to receive an equivalent level of support and protection
Msg 62:
the government has said its liasoned with disability agencies, which are?
Will these do? And these are just the groups quoted in the Green Paper:
Leonard Cheshire Disability; Age Concern; Mencap; Help The Aged; National Pensioners’ Convention; Carers UK; The Princess Royal Trust for Carers; Crossroads – Caring for Carers; National Council for Independent Living.
OK, back to this point:
i take it your not disabled
No I am not at the moment. However I am an overweight smoker… With glaucoma, osteoporosis, pernicious anaemia and various intestinal disorders running in my family I can see me needing care and support at some point in my retirement. And that is why I am trying to be careful about this Green Paper and what it is telling me about funding. As I said in Msg 60 about the funding:
everyone who expects to live beyond 65 will need to sit up and take notice because I get the feeling it's going to hit us all, whether we currently need care and support or not - and whether we ever will need care or not.
The Green Paper spells out why we cannot as a country continue to fund care and support as we do currently. In 1948 when the Welfare State was founded, male life expectancy was 66 years – it is now over 78 years. We are living longer and thus presenting problems that were not normally seen in 1948. Around 2 in every 3 women and 1 in every 2 men can expect to have a high care need during their retirement.
By 2026 there will be double the number of people aged over 85 that there are now. In 1948 there were 4 people under 65 for every person over 65. It is now 4 and by 2029 there are expected to be just 3 people under 65 for every 1 over 65.
Life expectancy is increasing – but healthy life expectancy is not increasing at the same rate. In 20 years’ time it is predicted that 1.7 million more people will need care and support. The cost of disability benefits could increase by almost 50%.
Somehow this country has to change the way it pays for care and support – that is, in a way that is fair and efficient. If we don’t, then care and support through any benefits will be restricted to those with the very highest needs and the lowest incomes.
The authors of the Green Paper have ruled out two of the possible funding options: People paying entirely for themselves and people paying for care and support costs when in work through a higher level of taxation or National Insurance.
So what’s left?
Partnership
Everyone who needed care and support would get a minimum of a quarter or a third of their funding from the State through taxation. The rest of the costs would be means-tested, so younger people would get all their care for free as they have not been able to build up capital assets. If someone’s assets were tied up in their home, then they could defer payment of their share until after their death so their home would be safeguarded while they were still living.
However, people consulted thought that it was important to them to protect their savings and not have to possibly use all the value of their homes to pay for care. A way round this would be for it to be made easier to take out insurance to cover the costs they might have to meet themselves.
Insurance
Using the Partnership model, either private or State-backed insurance with incentives to enter such schemes would cover the person’s remaining costs not covered by the State. Private insurance would enable people to insure to protect the proportion of their assets they did not feel able to give up to pay for their care. State insurance would enable the premium to be paid after death from the estate. If it was voluntary, then it would be more expensive as fewer people would be “enrolled” to offset potential outlay. Expected cost: £20k - £25k per person. Which leads to the Green Paper’s third possible option:
Comprehensive
Everyone over 65 would be required to pay in to a “pot” that would include existing tax funding currently spent on social care and any disability benefits that were integrated, and everyone who needed care would benefit. The amount paid could be based on a means test or a fixed fee for most people, other than those with lower capital or assets. Working-age people would get free care. Expected cost: £17k - £20k per person.
I shall not be signing the petition because I can see the need to reconsider how we care for and support people in their retirement years – but I shall be writing in to give my views on the way that the funding can be found to provide care and support in my – and your – retirement. Thank you for the OP. | |
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Posted: 8/14/2009 4:11:57 PM |
The State cannot afford to continue to pay Attendance and some Disability Allowances in the future
If the state invested its money in its people instead of expensive wars on the other side of the globe and a diplomatic service huge and disproportionate to the size of our country, it could. Democracy is about those sorts of choices.
Comprehensive
Everyone over 65 would be required to pay in to a “pot” that would include existing tax funding currently spent on social care and any disability benefits that were integrated, and everyone who needed care would benefit. The amount paid could be based on a means test or a fixed fee for most people, other than those with lower capital or assets. Working-age people would get free care. Expected cost: £17k - £20k per person.
Strange that sounds very familiar... I was under the illusion that I had been paying for decades into such a pot - I believe it's named 'National Insurance' - or has that been fighting 'weapons of mass destruction' too? | |
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Posted: 8/14/2009 4:34:34 PM |
Strange that sounds very familiar... I was under the illusion that I had been paying for decades into such a pot - I believe it's named 'National Insurance'
Yes, it was an illusion. Social care for those over the age of 65 is not and never has been funded through National Insurance.
A 65 year old can expect to need care costing £30k in their retirement. 20% will need care costing more than £50k. If you have to spend years in a care home your costs could be more than £100k. Couples of course pay more.
If you have a low income and assets below £23k, then the State (including the Local Authority through Council Tax revenue) does fund the care. If you have any capital you have to fund yourself using your savings and your house until the value of your assets falls to £23k. | |
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Posted: 8/14/2009 7:35:52 PM | This seems highly unfair, especially when they are giving out unlimited amounts of tax credits to people who don't even live here and are not British citizens.
I imagine once the conservatives get in they'll cut off the resource drainers and hopefully use that money to keep funding DLA and other worthy causes in this country. | |
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Posted: 8/15/2009 3:14:32 AM | The benefits system is a shambles. You have people not getting benefit they are entitled to, other people sitting on IB that have no intention of working and are quite blatant about it. One of my colleagues was overpaid working tax credits for a year and didn't have to repay it. An extra grand a month in his paypacket for an entire year. I have neighbours who claim to be single parents and are living with someone but claim to be separated so they can rake in benefits.
There are massive drains on resources but not all of these come from the elderly.
As I have said before, my gran, who will be 85 next week, still pays full rent and council tax, has been on attendance allowance at the low rate for just over a year, is still in her own home.
Compare that to the drain in resources of her being in full time nursing care. As was said earlier, remove some of these benefits and you might find that families actually put their elderly relatives into care homes.
I'm in the process of claiming benefit at the moment. I received a letter last week telling me when accompanying documents had to be in which was the 10th of Sept.
I get a letter this morning, which was dated Wednesdays date but arrived today, giving me 3 days to send in the same documents plus additional ones that I had never been asked for.
If the DWP can't get the fundamentals right and I appreciate that it is poorly staffed due to job cuts, then what chance do these new changes have of being implemented properly? | |
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