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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/13/2009 3:59:42 PM | Can you see self-actualization not as a pyramid with a top, but as an ongoing, transitional process of always becoming more than you were?
sure, i think this applies to most of us.
Einstein himself had many charactor flaws. He was not the nicest person. Mother Theresa, often stated to be the most self-actualized, was also not the nicest person, at least not to those closest to her. She would not allow the nuns who worked under her to seek medical treatment for serious illnesses, and claimed it was because they did not need material things such as medicine, and that they had no money...after Mother Theresa's death...they found her account had hundreds of thousands of dollars. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/13/2009 8:54:08 PM | The basis of any utopian state would have to involve a quality education system throughout the entire community, and a health care system that attends to the basic needs of its people. Only when those areas are satisfied can you even begin to have some kind of 'mass self-actualization,' and I don't see that happening in the US anytime soon.
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/13/2009 8:58:23 PM | One has to remember there are people who have been CREDITED with being self actualized, but may not have actually been so. You're right that everyone has flaws, but the truly actualized man or woman may have far fewer than the average man on the street say (or not - there may be however "compensating " qualities). In fact there seem to be certain commonly held beliefs or attitudes held by actualized people. From what I can see they appear to be an expansion of compassion to include a caring for all living things, or at least for all people. Another thing I seem to see in them is an almost(?) obsessive drive for their work. The best example I can think of in that regard would be Van Gogh. One might say he was a manic depressive homosexual driven to madness (so I guess you could say he had his "flaws"), but when I look at his work I see raw genius in it and thank God (or the supreme entity(s) in the church of your choice, if any) that he lived and painted (in the face of such adversity) and contributed so much to the human race. I therefore consider him actualized even though he might not qualify based on a "technicality". I include such people because they recognized the value of their work and could do no other, no matter what cards might be stacked against them. In general though, I see the expansion of compassion as the singularly most significant trait of what might be called the "truly" actualized. Here I'm thinking of men like the Buddha, Christ, Gandhi, Schweitzer, the Dalai Lama and Einstein. Perhaps this is best illustrated with quotes from each to illustrate the commonality between them. I will now quote the aforementioned people and leave it to the reader to see if he can match the quote to the man:
"A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
"What does Reverence for Life say abut the relations between [humanity] and the animal world? Whenever I injure any kind of life I must be quite certain that it is necessary. I must never go beyond the unavoidable, not even in apparently insignificant things. The farmer who has mowed down a thousand flowers in his meadow in order to feed his cows must be careful on his way home not to strike the head off a single flower by the side of the road in idle amusement, for he thereby infringes on the law of life without being under the pressure of necessity."
"Love and knowledge led upwards to the heavens,
But always pity brought me back to earth;
Cries of pain reverberated in my heart
Of children in famine, of victims tortured
And of old people left helpless.
I long to alleviate the evil, but I cannot,
And I too suffer."
"If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion."
"I look forward confidently to the day when all who work for a living will be one with no thought to their separateness as Negroes, Jews, Italians or any other distinctions. This will be the day when we bring into full realization the American dream -- a dream yet unfulfilled. A dream of equality of opportunity, of privilege and property widely distributed; a dream of a land where men will not take necessities from the many to give luxuries to the few; a dream of a land where men will not argue that the color of a man's skin determines the content of his character; a dream of a nation where all our gifts and resources are held not for ourselves alone, but as instruments of service for the rest of humanity; the dream of a country where every man will respect the dignity and worth of the human personality."
"He who experiences the unity of life sees his own Self in all beings, and all beings in his own Self, and looks on everything with an impartial eye."
Luke: 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
“'Yajña' (sacrifice) means an act directed to the welfare of
others, done without desiring any return for it, whether of a
temporal or spiritual nature. 'Act' here must be taken in its
widest sense, and includes thoughts and word, as well as deed.
'Others' embraces not only humanity, but all life.”
You may notice that there are two "extra" quotes. I will leave it to the reader as an exercise to find out to whom they should be attributed.
well, that was a lot of typing...Time for a beer... | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/13/2009 9:17:18 PM |
You're thinking of the word utopia as used milennia later by Thomas More, and the steady degeneration of the word then as it is used today to mean something we might even aspire to...
Degeneration or evolution? As communication evolves, via telephone, television, radio, the internet, words will have a more expansive meaning.
Believe me when I say, I understand the protectiveness over certain words and concepts, as applied to a direct conversation.
Back to topic... (which must be done, otherwise it might get deleted, and who would want that?)
Can you picture for instance Gandhi, or Martin Luther King, or Einstein, or Schweitzer all sitting around with nothing to do? Can you see self-actualization not as a pyramid with a top, but as an ongoing, transitional process of always becoming more than you were?
Just a thought, if all of Maslow's pyramid of needs were met on the fundamental level, may possibly the pyramid might continue in reverse? Self-actualization being a founding principal for a society... where would that lead to? | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 1:36:06 AM | This thread is beginning to haunt me.
How would you define self-actualization? Is it a life spent pursuing worthy goals? Living up to your potential? Doing every task set before you as best you can?
When I think of the people mentioned earlier who are considered to be self-actualized ("Gandhi, or Martin Luther King, or Einstein, or Schweitzer"), the hardships they experienced provided each of them with direction by giving them something to overcome. It's entirely possible that any community that wants to encourage mass self-actualization would do well to develop institutions that provide some kind of mild hardship to overcome.
I think if we just added a course in basic psychology, civics and critical thinking to every middle or high school, we'd be well on our way to an almost perfect society. Those lessons are too important to be untaught before college.
Great thread, thanks to the OP.  | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 1:56:46 AM | | Again an aside for the lady who made the "Limerick" quip:) ...if one takes seriously the message of thinkers like Plato...then...in this context...it certainly represents for me something of a degeneration, decline, perversion, distortion etc...I'm not for a moment arguing against the necessity of fluidity in language...but that does not mean that in tracing the development of certain conceptual notions that we cannot diagnose a concomitant change (for better or worse) in cultural or political attitudes and so on! In this instance, the way the word utopia has been understood since More is something that I find alarming...and this is nothing against the OP's position and subsequent disclaimers at all, I'm simply responding to your question concerning the evolution of language! | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 2:17:09 AM | With respect to the question of self-actualization...since the Nietzsche thread seems in a way to have influenced your current thoughts on this Justdukky, perhaps you should consider what he might say. First, he would almost definitely insist that the word ubermensch NOT be used in that context. That is an important theoretical point to be clear on.
However, if we take a more casual approach...what kinds of things does Nietzsche say that are apposite in the current context? Well I suppose if you look at some of the descriptions of the human condition variously described you might appropriate some of them: we are described as (incurably...and that is crucial...there is no escaping this part of our condition) arrows of longing for distant shores, we are described as unsatisfiable desire...essentially, if all being is becoming and to become what we already are is the simultaneous requirement for an 'authentic' existence, then living as a self transcending work in progress embracing the dangerous character of life as we constantly shatter against the truth of the most abysmal thought is probably as good as it gets...
Have a look at the famous passage from The Gay Science descriping the madman running into the Square in the early morning hours proclaiming the death of God...I'd imagine it's easy enough to find but the reference would be (if memory serves) Section No. 125 in the Gay Science, the title of the section is The Madman I believe! Enjoy, it's one of the most enjoyable, poignant, profound and rich pieces of philosophical writing I've ever come across - a stylistic and philosophical masterpiece and in one passage he outstrips centuries of thinkers before him (in my opinion)! But even as a piece of writing, it is fantastic stuff! | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 4:16:57 AM |
How would you define self-actualization? Is it a life spent pursuing worthy goals? Living up to your potential? Doing every task set before you as best you can?
Essentially I see it as living up to one's potential, but not as doing every task set before you to your best ability; rather it is the ability and doing of your CHOSEN task to the best of your ability.
I don't imagine Einstein was terribly good at taking out the garbage; my guess is that if nobody took it out for him, it would have piled up around his desk until he was forced to either clear a workspace or move out. His physics, however was another matter. Even when he had to work in a patent office to "earn his keep" his mind was on his physics. It was the only thing in his life (outside of his lover?) that was really important to him. He didn't do it out of kindness and he probably didn't do it out of compassion for the human race; he did it because he was a curious and patient man who couldn't walk away from a problem without solving it.
For all of that (and especially as he grew older) he came to see the world around him as a problem in itself and made some observations. His "compassion" quote is one of them. Whether or not he was always a compassionate man could be the subject of much debate. Whether or not he was always right isn't even a guess; he was often wrong. Nevertheless, he was an ethical and honest man, who felt strongly about his views and the world around him. Unlike many of his colleagues, he was a man of the people. It was his great humanity and overall love of it that I'm sure necessitated his informal hypothesis regarding compassion. It was his great faith in himself that gave it the air of conviction, and right or wrong, it was his great intellect that suggests we ought to at least pay some attention to it.
Reading Maslow, you will find that self-actualized people don't necessarily rise from adversity (IMHO the greatest of them will, but it doesn't appear to be a precondition for actualization). The trend appears more in the nature of moving to the "next level" when the needs of the existing ones are met. Even Einstein would have starved to death without food, and I'm sure his work suffered in the early days because he had to spend some of his time earning a living. I suspect the great love of his younger days provided for his need for love, etc.
Once the various needs are met, the natural striving appears to be "upward" to some next level, where only the actualizing man can meet his own needs. One need not be "fully" actualized to be a genius, or obsessive (unless one wishes to modify the definition), but it definitely seems to help to become actualized if one is an obsessive genius. Such a personality seems to allow such men to move to yet another level. I see that level as the manifestation of universal compassion within the man (or woman) | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 4:49:21 AM | @ Kirk
since the Nietzsche thread seems in a way to have influenced your current thoughts on this Justdukky, perhaps you should consider what he might say
You misunderstand. I never read Nietzche (almost made a point of it - He was too "popular"). I was only fascinated by the concepts being discussed in the thread as they relate to my own views and began to see the concept of Übermensch as a vehicle to express them.
To the extent that my ba$tardization and use of both "Übermensch" and "Utopia" might differ with your presumably more accurate interpretations, I apologize to you. I too lament the apparent degradation of language over time. However, since my intent in using those words as "popularly" perceived was and is to express certain concepts for which I have been as yet unable to find suitable, precise/concise terminology, I felt at liberty to use some "poetic license." (Perhaps you have more suitable words to offer in their stead?). Hell, I'd take a page from Madison Avenue and use "maximum strength actualizationorama" if I thought it might properly convey my ideas.
we are described as unsatisfiable desire...
Even the Buddha (Who I consider self-actualized by virtue of his nirvana) was paradoxically filled with the desire to extinguish it (at least before his nirvana, but not afterwards. So I would say that the drive toward actualization is only to be found in those who are not actualized. That does not say, however that development stops there, as I feel every breath is yet another moment of learning and "becoming", in particular with actualized people.
Enjoy, it's one of the most enjoyable, poignant, profound and rich pieces of philosophical writing I've ever come across
Oh Great!!...Yet another thing on my ever-lengthening reading list! However, since I have no doubt you have studied a great deal of philosophical text and you are a smart man whose opinion I respect, I'll check it out. Does it go well with beer & pretzels? | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 5:25:56 AM | Well I'm sure Nietzsche wouldn't object...the poor man was in such a shocking physical state for most of his life that he could scarcely enjoy a glass of wine without crippling headaches...so I can't see him turning in his grave over that.
For my part...I have almost finished working on a Plato paper so I'm looking forward to a 'scatter' of pints of guinness with a few friends later. A traditional symposium if you like, in the Greek sense, i.e. a drinking party:) | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 6:34:09 AM |
I'm looking forward to a 'scatter' of pints of guinness with a few friends later. A traditional symposium if you like, in the Greek sense, i.e. a drinking party:)
It would appear we have more in common than I previously thought.
Have one on me!... | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 6:48:40 AM |
A traditional symposium if you like, in the Greek sense, i.e. a drinking party:)
Dionysus would be proud. Just stay away from those Maenads...
Duk, I am giving this some serious thought...I almost have it formulated in my head, as to what I want to convey.
Are we coming at this from a social infrastructural angle, or a political one? If self-actualization and compassion were already integral values of a community, what would that look like? | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 7:42:46 AM |
If self-actualization and compassion were already integral values of a community, what would that look like?
That's what I want everyone to try to visualize and venture their opinions on. Speculation regarding social & political structure (or lack thereof) is also important to consider, so feel free to do so.
What would such a society look like? How could it avoid tyranny? Could it preserve everyone's rights & freedoms?
If it was a society based on human compassion, what would their taxes pay for, or would there even be any? The questions are endless; let's try to answer some of them. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 10:41:00 AM |
Why would a presumably free and just society be against human nature?
dukky, ishaun kind of answered the question you posed to me in msg 23. And you replied to ishaun as such (above). To which i would concur, a free and just society would not be against human nature. Unfortunately the opposite is not as true, i am absolutely convinced that some men ( and let's not be biased, some women) can not, will not live peaceably in a free and just society ..... such a pity actually! Hence my comment of "cleansing". | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 11:06:27 AM | Okay...here we go.
I have spent a significant amount of time in intentional communities. I would have to say that those are some of the most self-actualized people that I know, but also the community is set up that for it to happen. It came pretty darn close to my idea of Utopia.
One of the communities I stayed with, consisted of a hundred and one people.
This is from their website:
We do not have a group religion; our beliefs are diverse. We do not have a central leader; we govern ourselves by a form of democracy with responsibility shared among various managers, planners, and committees. We are self-supporting economically, and partly self-sufficient. We are income-sharing. Each member works 42 hours a week in the community's business and domestic areas. Each member receives housing, food, healthcare, and personal spending money from the community.
Our hammocks and casual furniture business generates most of our income; indexing books and making tofu provide much of the rest. Still, less than half of our work goes into these income-producing activities; the balance goes into a variety of tasks that benefit our quality of life - including milking cows, gardening, cooking, and childcare. Most people prefer doing a variety of work, rather than the same job day in, day out.
This is my personal idea of utopia. I am sure to some people, milking a cow would be their personal nightmare.
How would this be applied on a grander scale? Comparative value and capitalism would have to go out the window, and a decentralization of the government would have to take place. It would have to be a total social/political act of restructuring, a total breakdown of the current system and agreements would have to be made, and honored.
The fact that a community like this already exists, gives me hope. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 11:28:51 AM |
The fact that a community like this already exists, gives me hope
thank you Diva, i was wondering when someone was going to bring up the commune, or the more modern version, intentional communities. These "ideal" societies can indeed exist on a small scale. The problem as you mentioned is how to expand this to an entire town, state, nation .... world???
beyond the obvious hurdles it would be interesting to study these intentional communities and find out, has anyone had to be kicked out because they rebelled? do families move out because they no longer can live with these rules? do they exclude people from the community because they are a sex offender, or have some other form of criminal past? and assuming the best we could do is have thousands of different communities all living withing their own set of rules, would these communities then be able to get along with each other? ................... on second thought, no need to study this, the answer is with us now. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 1:25:34 PM | The problem as you mentioned is how to expand this to an entire town, state, nation .... world???
Why not have (for instance) a world of communities; or if it's a matter of scale, why not have breakdowns such as we have now, with the globe (a level 4 community) countries (level 3 communities), cities (level 2), communes (level 1). The only real reason for the divisions might be for such things as might require economy of scale (moon landings, accelerators, etc), scaled down as needed (city roads & infrastructure) to the level of say communal farms. All these "entities" could be united under the rule of unwritten (and therefore incorruptable) Natural Law, with a judicial system not unlike the one we have now, minus the statutes & precedents & feudalistic (or neo-feudalistic) holdovers like capitalism (too self-serving and allowing the corrupt too much power through economic manipulation).
95% of people are basically good, decent, somewhat compassionate people. Only the 5% of sociopaths would really have trouble with such a setup because they couldn't manipulate it as a means to power, at least not in the way they have...for centuries. If it were axiomatic that rational people be self-ruling, it would be known from the outset that there are no leaders beyond the people themselves, who could then hire administrators (instead of "representatives who make "laws") to act as genuine public servants.
Anyone who got out of line in some sort of power grab, would be taken down immediately by the community and would then have to defend himself in a court of Natural Law.
...Just a thought of course... | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 6:30:46 PM |  ^^^you know I talked about this in the thread Tragedy of the commons. And my conclusion was similar to yours . Just to make a few points.
I think the meaning of self actualization here is the ability for a human to be the best of themselves. The most productive human is a human with a positive goal or dream and a will to balance it. The benefit of a human (most definitely a dream based upon natural laws) dream/goal FAR outweighs their personality or failings.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Currently the predominant governing system has way too much power roaming around the system. The power here is directly related to money. I would therefore think that the issue of tyrants and corrupt bureaucrats can be solved by concentrating on certain economical reforms (central banking system anyone?). For self actualization to truly foster in the minds of more humans, the stumbling blocks that money and power bring must be removed. (Van Gough may be rich now but he certainly wasn't when his genius was flourishing).
Plato and the greats are really cool. But things are much different now than they were then. As a theory one should always jump to the classics to keep things in balance. However the issue here is one of practicality. Utopia may be the wrong word to use but the implications is of a society better than the one we have now. Since the consensus seems to be that the old system just isn't cutting it anymore. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/14/2009 10:31:38 PM |
the consensus seems to be that the old system just isn't cutting it anymore.
Excellent post! The reason I quoted your comment was to underline the intent of my "hidden agenda" here. We all know the existing system is unfair, cruel, and counterproductive, but it seems most people have been programmed to think inside a very well-defined box. How often do we hear things like "It may be awful, but it's impossible to have a society without compromising rights", "people are incapable of governing themselves", "people are basically animals (except me of course)", "a perfect society is impossible, this is the best we can do.", "are you trying to tell me I don't live in the greatest country on earth?", etc., etc.
Seems to me If I were in charge of everyone and wanted to keep them in line, propaganda like that would suit my purposes quite well. In truth I call it all bullshit! I know a garbageman who could run the entire planet better than that entire crew of thieving, corrupt pathological liars & sociopaths currently running the worlds banks, nations & corporations. Unfortunately, he doesn't want the job. He'd rather share the "throne" with everybody else. Fortunately for all of us, he did have a "Pinky & the Brain" plan for global domination by the people of the globe and it is now underway. People are even now starting to question the assumptions that have held them back and are looking for fresh ideas in societal organization. These are not entirely "Utopian" theoretical constructs. They form the basis for "phase III" of the four phase plan for a non-violent global takeover by the people.
Viva la Revolucion!! | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/15/2009 12:20:37 AM |
Unfortunately, he doesn't want the job. He'd rather share the "throne" with everybody else. Fortunately for all of us, he did have a "Pinky & the Brain" plan for global domination by the people of the globe and it is now underway. People are even now starting to question the assumptions that have held them back and are looking for fresh ideas in societal organization. These are not entirely "Utopian" theoretical constructs. They form the basis for "phase III" of the four phase plan for a non-violent global takeover by the people.
Viva la Revolucion!!
.....I find none of this surprising. Actually its very predictable. Society evolves and we get better and better at it as we fail with our ideologies. When one Idea fails another and often better one comes to replace it. But we pay a hefty price and its name is revolution. The fear of the unknown cripples us. We want changes that are close to home. Anything too far from the old system seems like camping in the forest butt naked...and who wants to camp in the forest butt naked? | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/15/2009 12:23:55 AM | i'll tell you guys who is damned self actualized.......probably the only real self actualized man on the whole blundering planet....this guy >>>>
that guy is so F*%#! self actualized i cant even understand nor bear it!
this twerp isnt far behind >> | |
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