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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/17/2009 7:32:36 PM | Oh...and creating a community that fosters compassion...co-operative effort...and co-creative existence...
....And that's the rub, I've seen too much of humanity to beleive that such a place could ever truly exsit. Please don't confuse me with a Nihilist, or Fatalist. I would look more to Nietzsche's philosophy that most people are self deluted about the state of man, or other enforced beliefs. When a person has a pardigm shift which challeges their truth they either, shift there thinking or entrench.
My view of humanity is they're: mean, selfish, self-interested, and greedy. Maybe as a whole humanity is a mix of our views, but my people will ruin the good yours make. I think this is the reason that some of us are haveing trouble with dreaming in this thread. The knowlegde of how humanity has used and abused each other throughout history make me doubt how a very liberal state could survive. Even Buddha acknowledged this, his goal was to ease human suffering not rid us of it. For he saw riding humanity of suffering was an impossiable task. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/17/2009 7:43:40 PM |
actually the conversation would go like this:
Public servant: Here is your balance sheet. How much do you expect to draw next month?
You say: Thank you, but I don't know just yet.
public servant: Thank you, but please let me know before month-end so I can balance the books for the upcoming shareholders meeting. Have a nice day.
You: Bye.
And then at month end when the public servant is waiting for the call, all he hears are the crickets... and no phone call or message.
And when he calls the person up, he gets no answer... OR he gets told to bugger off.
That's what happens in reality.
This is why income taxes get deducted off of every paycheque and if you paid too much because you maxed out your 401K or RRSP, then you get money back at tax time. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/17/2009 7:53:04 PM |
My view of humanity is they're: mean, selfish, self-interested, and greedy.
I'm sorry. It is soooo not my experience. Are people capable of these qualities in a moment? Absolutely. Terrifyingly so. I just don't believe it is an inherent value.
Maybe as a whole humanity is a mix of our views, but my people will ruin the good yours make.
Your people, or your views? Or is it a mixture?
I read this really great quote, once in a book..."Divination cannot exceed imagination."
I am not talking about psychic stuff...I am talking about the predictability of an outcome of human endeavorment (<----spell check says I just made up that word).
We cannot create, what we cannot imagine. Can we not imagine something better than the world we are currently creating?
Even Buddha acknowledged this, his goal was to ease human suffering not rid us of it. For he saw riding humanity of suffering was an impossiable task
There is a difference between "I have a pain in my shoulder, because I have been milking cows all day", and "I have a pain in my shoulder because someone hit me, and mugged me, probably because they need the money, since their basic needs aren't being met".
Both impart suffering, but stem from different causes. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/17/2009 7:56:24 PM | Zeke don't forget about those dodgy types that cheat on taxes, or just don't pay them.
Dukky in the the example I still don't see how taxes, usery fees, or goods for distrubtion are collected. All I see is the give part in your example, not the take which will be necessary for the give.
Edit:
Endevorment is a made up word I think the plural is endevors. But I'm not spelling or grammar expert. I've would have ignored it had you not pointed it out. :)
I guess what I meant is the bad people will try and sometimes suceed in exploiting the idealists. I think they the types the make life less then perfect now. I do have a poor view of humanity because of what the burtality I've seen inflicted on my fellow man. I have also seen great acts of compassion too, but on a whole more buritalization.
Gadget. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:01:34 PM |
Nope. You are WRONG. It is a STATE of lawlessness. It is not a method...why, to say that it is a method would nullify the whole concept of anarchy...a method implies planning and anarchy doesn't...
Well then if I'm wrong, You and I should be able to go anywhere in Somalia and find NO person in charge anywhere and it should be a wonderful place to visit and it would be all loving with fornication in the streets...
But I'm gonna make a bet that we will find some sort of group or gang in charge of most, if not, all areas... one that isn't too friendly I might add... especially given that we won't fit in due to our skin colour alone.
People who are anarchists try to pull the wool over people's eyes into thinking that if we achieve Anarchy, that nobody will step in and take over.
True anarchy never exists for long...
Someone like Stalin would have viewed Anarchists as "Useful Idiots"... and he did use people such as this to help the Bolsheviks take power.
But...if Maslow's needs are met (and hey throw in nurture and touch, too) would these "reasons" stand to exist?
Just because someone is self-actualized doesn't mean they're not gonna ever get angry, feel fear or have a desire to survive a dangerous situation.
The issue here would be making sure that individuals didn't know they were being duped. But then again, the process would at least bring some of our population into the fold.
Ugh! Don't always go with your first thought...Don't confuse a blueprint of a social infrastructure with religiosity! I know that the insinuations were deliberate...
ACTUALLY... making sure that individuals didn't know they were being duped would be of Utmost importance to achieving OP's Utopia OR an Anarchist's Utopia.
Possibly, in today's society. But if all needs are met, and there was an equal distribution of power, would there be such a need for psychotherapy?
Take a look at what the average person drives and look at the average size of a house in the USA... now tell me with a straight face (or straight typing) that the average person would be satisfied with merely having their needs met. And if you still think so, then I recommend that you start by getting rid of your current vehicle and get the smallest and most basic vehicle that just barely meets your needs... with no luxuries like A/C, automatic or a stereo ( and if it comes standard with a stereo, take it out and sell it on eBay).
If a standard of living was set up so that everyone might possibly engage in the process of self-actualization, who would be the "right" people? That is exclusionary, and purely subjective...and not the OP's intent at all...
But the exclusionary thing WOULD happen in practice. Again... I point out the Bolshevik revolution and the "Utopia" it resulted it that was generally described as a "Miserable Paradise" by citizens of the USSR. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:09:01 PM |
But I'm gonna make a bet that we will find some sort of group or gang in charge of most, if not, all areas... one that isn't too friendly I might add... especially given that we won't fit in due to our skin colour alone.
The average Somoli doesn't care about skin color, but what you can do to futher their ends. We'd have more trouble because we look like we have money. As far as being very dangerous, that is an understatement. Just go ask the UN peacekeepers. Somilia actually has a centeral government, but doesn't control much more then the capital. And control there is questionable. I have seen the war lords use food as a weapon and recruitment tool. There are many reasons Somolia is a a failed nation state. Most NGO's will not go there because of the security issues. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:19:07 PM | Zeke don't forget about those dodgy types that cheat on taxes, or just don't pay them.
Or those that don't pay their condo maintenance fees either... which, in the condo I was in, covered building maintenance, building insurance, heat, water, electricity, rec center costs and cable TV.
I guess what I meant is the bad people will try and sometimes succeed in exploiting the idealists.
And some "idealists" aren't what they seem. The Bolsheviks were "Idealists" too. So was Mao. The world would have been much better off without either brand of idealism.
The average Somoli doesn't care about skin color, but what you can do to futher their ends.
But the skin colour will clearly indicate someone like me as an 'outsider'... and therefore a target. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:25:59 PM | :
My view of humanity is they're: mean, selfish, self-interested, and greedy.
I'm sorry. It is soooo not my experience. Are people capable of these qualities in a moment? Absolutely. Terrifyingly so. I just don't believe it is an inherent value.
Awe... Divagreen... so sweet and innocent... just like my daughter.
It really depends on the context that you meet people.
If, for example, you're a politician or a condo board director, I assure you that after a few years, it's hard not to get at least a little cynical about some people. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:29:30 PM | I would say your clothing and mannerisms would stand out greater then your skin color.
I'm no Maoist, but I do think he did some interesting things. My Grandfather was telling me when he was on his destroyer in the South China Sea in 1947 and seeing how the Chineese were starving to death. Mao did more to feed the average person then Ken Shi sheck. (sp) . As a matter of fact his ship helped cover his escape to Tiwan. So not all that Mao did was bad, he had a unique brand of tyrannical communism. This is why China can funtion in its Communist/Capitalist state. The next 20 years will interesting to see what develops. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:57:12 PM |
Awe... Divagreen... so sweet and innocent... just like my daughter.
I know you meant it as an endearment...but it reads as condescending...which is not within the unspoken, agreed terms of our snowballing... | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:27:44 PM | ^^^Well look at my profile again and take another look at my daughter... nothing condescending in someone being sweet and innocent.
But speaking of snowballs... what's that over there?
Hah! I got you good while you were looking the other way! | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:48:35 PM | Even Buddha acknowledged this, his goal was to ease human suffering not rid us of it. For he saw riding humanity of suffering was an impossiable task.
Not so. The Buddha had no goal beyond his life being a lesson in transcendence. He believed (quite correctly) that desire was the source of suffering. With the end of desire comes an end to suffering. I would add to that the word fear, as well for further clarification. It is the desire to avoid suffering (which might be another way of looking at fear) that results in the manipulation of otherwise good people to do evil. The evil doesn't have to be very great, it may only be "going along to get along" out of a fear of rejection say. IF something somewhere in your heart says it is wrong, then it's wrong, period.
That's what happens in reality.
No, that's what happens in the current mess we call society. There is no need for it. What would happen with respect to the hypothetical situation might be something like the aforementioned "you" drawing too much from the community account and being unable to justify it at the shareholders meeting, at which point he might be either charged with attempted fraud, or have his account dring rights restricted at least until the "excess" had been accounted for.
I just don't believe it is an inherent value.
Neither do I. I do believe that 5% of the population is like that, but the other 95% only does "evil" because they are too chicken to have enough integrity to do the right thing and maybe too stupid to see that little evils pile up and in aggregate, become huge. I think it's hilarious that most people will say that people are in general greedy crooked animals with no sense of decency...except them of course. There's no point in pointing out the irrationality of the assumption to them if it isn't immediately obvious without the saying.
Dukky in the the example I still don't see how taxes, usery fees, or goods for distrubtion are collected.
Taxes???....Why would you pay taxes to yourself? What might have been required as taxes under the "old" system are simply administration costs on the community ledger and the responsibility of the community. Your production is added into the "pool" as community gross income.
if I'm wrong, You and I should be able to go anywhere in Somalia and find NO person in charge anywhere and it should be a wonderful place to visit and it would be all loving with fornication in the streets...
Somalia is a poor example of anything, including anarchy. That poor country has been totally manipulated by external forces eager to tear it apart to gain revenge for its prior succesful resistance to colonization. Don't you find it at least questionable that a nation that has been internally peaceful for centuries is suddenly alive with ethnic hatred and attempted genocide? No, I'm pretty sure Somalia is being deliberately dismantled by outside forces, such as Britain, The US, and Israel, each of which has much to gain in both geographic/strategic, economic, and political terms from the murder/genocide of the Somali people.
But I'm gonna make a bet that we will find some sort of group or gang in charge of most, if not, all areas
This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. If you study the model currently under construction and can find a way that this could be achieved, I want to be the first to know so that the "loophole" in the model can be closed off. It would be far more productive for you to do that than simply venturing your unstudied opinion based on erroneous assumptions of the current model by telling us "it'll never fly." Tell us WHY it'll never fly (after studying the model) and I'll listen.
making sure that individuals didn't know they were being duped would be of Utmost importance to achieving OP's Utopia OR an Anarchist's Utopia.
that is exactly the sort of Utopia you live in now. Do you realize how extensively you have been duped?
tell me with a straight face (or straight typing) that the average person would be satisfied with merely having their needs met
For the most part, I am, unfortunately my family are died in the wool consumers and I have to make far more than required to make them happy. Frankly it's pissing me off because they should know better. The need to make money distracts me from what I'd rather be doing with what little remains of my life.
I point out the Bolshevik revolution...
Why would you bother, do you really think I haven't studied history? Do you really think I don't know what it was all about and WHY implementations of communism took the form they did? Quit saying it would be a Stalinist hell and start showing me how one could form BASED ON THE MODEL.
The world would have been much better off without either brand of idealism.
The world would be much better off without ANY brand of idealism. Societies should be based on PRACTICALISM. (Did I just make up a word? - Oh well, you get the idea - a society should be based on the assumption that the first thing everyone is going to try to do is destroy it. Only by making that assumption can mechanisms to protect the society be put in place.) | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 8:37:02 AM | No, that's what happens in the current mess we call society. There is no need for it. What would happen with respect to the hypothetical situation might be something like the aforementioned "you" drawing too much from the community account and being unable to justify it at the shareholders meeting, at which point he might be either charged with attempted fraud, or have his account dring rights restricted at least until the "excess" had been accounted for.
And without having Perfect People, what are you gonna do to prevent the same mess in the society you propose, eh? I haven't seen you propose a single thing that would prevent the same issues.
As for being charged for fraud or restricting rights... how's that gonna get done if the public servants have "no authority" and the people have the right to overrule them?
In the society you propose, when the person get's charged with something by a public servant, the person who gets charged will just say "No... I don't think so. Bugger off"... and the public servant would have to bugger off since they have no authority in the system you propose.
I'm telling you this as a former director who always wanted/tried to run the condo by CONSENSUS. Sometimes you can get consensus if everyone agrees... but even if everyone agrees initially, you can still have people suddenly changing their positions without any explanation. I experienced this first hand. So some things that had to get done were done via a majority vote, but without universal consensus.
Somalia is a poor example of anything, including anarchy. That poor country has been totally manipulated by external forces eager to tear it apart to gain revenge for its prior succesful resistance to colonization.
Yeah yeah... it's always us "evil western countries" that are to blame... Pullleaase... Somalia has been independent since 1960. They didn't fight for their independence... their independence was planned and freely given.
At most, the only thing you can blame colonialism for is the border war Somalia had with Ethiopia.
They had democracy and a decent amount of prosperity... and then the coup d'etat happened in 1969... colonialism or the west had nothing to do with that. But that regime didn't cause Somalia to go downhill either.
What did the country in was a power struggle between different factions within the country... something common in military dictatorships. If the country had a democracy, there would have just been an election after the leader stepped down due to health issues. In a military dictatorship, it's a lot more messy.
And the final nail in the coffin for Somalia was the repression in the 1980s that caused a rebellion and civil war.
Somalia's problems were mostly self-inflicted caused by a power-hungry and fearful military.
But I'm gonna make a bet that we will find some sort of group or gang in charge of most, if not, all areas
This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. If you study the model currently under construction and can find a way that this could be achieved, I want to be the first to know so that the "loophole" in the model can be closed off. It would be far more productive for you to do that than simply venturing your unstudied opinion based on erroneous assumptions of the current model by telling us "it'll never fly." Tell us WHY it'll never fly (after studying the model) and I'll listen.
Your idea of a Utopian society won't fly because an Administration won't work if that Administration has no authority. The public servants also won't be able to get anything done either if they don't have authority. The only exception is if you have a society made up of Perfect People... which is something you said your society WON'T have.
If there is nobody in charge, someone will Put Themselves In Charge. This is what happens in practice.
making sure that individuals didn't know they were being duped would be of Utmost importance to achieving OP's Utopia OR an Anarchist's Utopia.
that is exactly the sort of Utopia you live in now. Do you realize how extensively you have been duped?
How could I be 'duped' if I don't believe I'm living in a Utopia in the first place? Especially given that I've cited some inequities in society and even have ideas on how to fix them. How does that qualify as 'duped'? It doesn't.
Or are you trying to convince me that my government "doesn't work at all" and all the taxes I pay gets me "nothing"? Because that's what it would mean for me to be 'duped'. But the fact of the matter is... My garbage gets collected, my kids go to a good school, I have running water and electricity, crime has been dropping every year for the past several years, there are services/programs available to me for free or a nominal fee and society where I live is mostly orderly.
That's not to say there isn't room for improvement. But to say that the system needs to be replaced completely means that you're foolishly ignoring all the things that DO work in society at the moment.
For the most part, I am, unfortunately my family are died in the wool consumers and I have to make far more than required to make them happy. Frankly it's pissing me off because they should know better.
Well there's your acid-test. First you start with yourself and see if you could live the way you propose. Then... friends and family. And if you succeed there (and I doubt you will), then you can take it further.
But consider the question "Is everyone else except me wrong or is it me that's wrong?"
I point out the Bolshevik revolution...
Why would you bother, do you really think I haven't studied history?
No... I don't think you have studied and understood it.
Do you really think I don't know what it was all about and WHY implementations of communism took the form they did?
No. You might have read about it, but I don't believe you fully comprehended it.
Quit saying it would be a Stalinist hell and start showing me how one could form BASED ON THE MODEL.
No... it's YOUR job to show how one could form because it's YOUR model. I'm just pointing out the giant holes in your system that would make it unworkable and how it would be wiiiide open to tyranny in a much worse sense than the system we already have.
And the solution I have to what you propose is to NOT implement what you propose in the first place because in my assessment, what you propose is NOT an improvement over what already exists in Canada and the USA.
The world would be much better off without ANY brand of idealism. Societies should be based on PRACTICALISM.
And you're trying to form a new ideal called "practicalism"... an ideal that strikes me as being very similar to what the Bolsheviks talked about BEFORE they gained power.
That's why I bring up the Bolsheviks. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 8:57:44 AM |
Taxes???....Why would you pay taxes to yourself? What might have been required as taxes under the "old" system are simply administration costs on the community ledger and the responsibility of the community. Your production is added into the "pool" as community gross income.
That is what a tax is or if you like public funds. You still haven't answered my question of collection for re-distrubution.
Not so. The Buddha had no goal beyond his life being a lesson in transcendence. He believed (quite correctly) that desire was the source of suffering. With the end of desire comes an end to suffering. I would add to that the word fear, as well for further clarification. It is the desire to avoid suffering (which might be another way of looking at fear) that results in the manipulation of otherwise good people to do evil. The evil doesn't have to be very great, it may only be "going along to get along" out of a fear of rejection say. IF something somewhere in your heart says it is wrong, then it's wrong, period.
Sir I would say that you are the one that incorrect. I've spent many years of my life learning about the world religions. But, to give the topic the justice it deserves we need to define the sect of Buddhism, and which Buddha we are speaking of. Buddhism is not a monolith.
Why would you bother, do you really think I haven't studied history? Do you really think I don't know what it was all about and WHY implementations of communism took the form they did? Quit saying it would be a Stalinist hell and start showing me how one could form BASED ON THE MODEL.
History gives a model of human reactions. That is why it important. Remember what Santianna said. Those that don't know their history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. This is why we say it would be a Stalinist or something close to it hell. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 9:38:49 AM |
my question of collection for re-distrubution.
Collection for redistribution of what? The people will "own" the means of production and conduct commercial exchange of some things at various levels of communities.
Think of a corporate model where "the people" are the shareholders in the corporation, with some occassionally appointed to the board for administration purposes. A corporation has its workers (also the shareholders in this case), who produce various goods at designated manufacturing plants. The goods are then shipped to warehouses and distributed to various locations, then reach the consumer (eventually, after passing through some wholesalers & retailers, etc).
Now picture one corporation doing all of that under the one umbrella of the highest level communities, then distributing the "profits" to the shareholders after costs are deducted.
've spent many years of my life learning about the world religions.
Then you know that Buddhism isn't a religion i the traditional sense and that many atheists are Buddhists. The goal of Buddhism is nirvana.
Those that don't know their history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.
That is absolutely correct, and it was my desire to avoid such mistakes that fostered the idea for this model of a functional and incorruptible society that I'm trying to create. Once the "bugs" are ironed out (roughly) I'm planning to create a society based on this model to give it a "test run." Since membership will be by open contract, I'm currently thinking that members should volunteer to abide by the golden rule (positive form), thus "forcing" people to behave with more compassion than they might otherwise possess. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 10:16:36 AM |
and it was my desire to avoid such mistakes that fostered the idea for this model of a functional and incorruptible society that I'm trying to create.
And what makes a society?
People.
And what do you need for an incorruptible society?
Incorruptible People... or in other words... a society of Perfect People that I've already mentioned.
I'm currently thinking that members should volunteer to abide by the golden rule (positive form), thus "forcing" people to behave with more compassion than they might otherwise possess.
How are you gonna force anybody to do anything without Authority? The answer to that is You Can't.
Also... there is plenty of compassion in society too if you know where to look for it. Things like Food Banks, Charities, Employment Insurance, Public Healthcare, Welfare, Equal Rights... all that came out to be because of compassion. Even with simple things like when I rode my bicycle in to work this morning... I've seen faaar more drivers drive carefully around me and patiently let me pass. In my estimation, the for every rude driver, I see 10 considerate/compassionate drivers. It's just that the odd rude one is easier to remember because they stir up feelings of anger and frustration.
You can't force people to have compassion... but the good news is that many people have compassion anyway without any coercion. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 10:52:50 AM | Incorruptible People... or in other words... a society of Perfect People that I've already mentioned.
Or a perfectly incorruptible society that has zero tolerance for corruption.
How are you gonna force anybody to do anything without Authority? The answer to that is You Can't.
Quite correct, however membership in the society is by voluntary contract which gives natural law courts authority over them if they are in breach of it. It is not tyranny, because they entered into the contract willingly and knowingly, with their oath to act with compassion and to abide by the law.
You can't force people to have compassion... but the good news is that many people have compassion anyway without any coercion.
True, but for those that don't, and wish to be members of the society, they will have to agree by contract to act with compassion (under penalty of law). | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 3:01:45 PM | | What would prevent total idleness? Have you ever worked in logistics things don't just magically appear. How would you get simple things like bread to the distrubtion lines? This exercise has given me a greater apprechiation of how smart the founders were, and what a mangificent document the Consitution is. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 4:20:44 PM |
What would prevent total idleness? Have you ever worked in logistics things don't just magically appear. How would you get simple things like bread to the distrubtion lines? This exercise has given me a greater apprechiation of how smart the founders were, and what a mangificent document the Consitution is.
I think the point is being missed. As we earn more, so do we spend more. As we spend more so do we use more resources. Our technology acts like a terraforming machine and changes the balance of our ecosystem faster than nature can balance it out (global warming, extinction of animals...ect). Honestly we can't continue like this. One reason its so hard to change is because the tyrants or bureaucrats who are overseer's or the "leaders" are free to keep excessive money flowing. With more money comes a higher standard of living which demands more resources. Keep this is up and we see the pattern where we have a few developed nations and many poorer nations, where the poorer nations are often used for cheap labor.
The point of this "Utopia" is to limit the damage humans are causing while allowing each human a high standard of living. There is no perfect solution but an efficient less destructive solution.
I'm not sure but I think the founding fathers would be a little saddened with the state we are in now. We are crippled by the consumer/producer relationship. Industrialization has created a labor force of people who's only purpose is to over produce. This is what the tyrants want as it cripples people and forces them to become laborers of the system. As we produce more so do we want more as it is accessible to us. Since we want more we will need more money to get the produce that we want. To get more money we will have to labor more. In this way the consumer-producer relationship is kept alive and self-actualization (being the best of who you are) becomes redundant. Self-actualization is replaced with the incentive of money since money is directly related to survival. The more you have the better ones chances for survival. With this its easy to see the bottle neck we will reach. Soon resources will run out and the current system will fail miserably. Even now we're starting to see its decline.
The "Utopia" we're working on is one that consciously minimizes the damage by living within the means of the ecosystem and not the consumer-producer relationship. The aim is not only one of balance but self actualization. We are not looking to create a self actualized state but looking to provide a more efficient means of reaching self actualization. That is increasing the freedom of people and fostering an environment that makes a person want to be the best of themselves. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 5:33:44 PM | I don't think the founders would be upset, considering many of them were merchants. They would be amazed how blessed this nation is, with an over-abundance food, homes, clothing, and freedom. I would argue less free, but free. Economics is about balance, supply and demand is about peoples unlimited wants vs. limited resources. Given to the invisible hand of economics when the resouces become too limited the price will go past it elastity point therefore, a reduction in consumption, unless, acted upon by an outside stitulus, i.e. government. We can look at rising healthcare costs and the reason the premiums have become unmanageble is because of HMO's PPO's, Medicare, Medicaid, VA injecting capitial into a system that has gone past it's economic premium. We need to talk about Adverse selection and other factors to give it the honest discussion this topic deserves.
Any economist will be a conservationist by nature. It is more economical to reduce and reuse. It cost more in overhead to harvest virgin material then it does to reprocess goods. This is why big buisness tries to recycle as often as posiable. Not just aluminum cans, but concrete et certria. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 7:19:04 PM | | Are you suggesting a regression to a hunter gather socieity? In that small of a group collectivism might work, but you're talking on the scale of a nation state. Therefore, some will just collect off the labor of others. Those that work will resent this, and cause social discord. Antitheis of Utopia. I see it at my job, where pay is based upon title, and not work preformed. So I have to work twice as hard to pick up from the idle behavior of my co-workers. Again how would you solve this? Remember the state and the individual has no authority to do anything about being wronged but kick the dirt. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 7:19:33 PM |
Economics is about balance, supply and demand is about peoples unlimited wants vs. limited resources.Given to the invisible hand of economics when the resouces become too limited the price will go past it elastity point therefore, a reduction in consumption, unless, acted upon by an outside stitulus, i.e. government.
Isn't that balance only within the system? The problem is with excess. The living standards for developed nations is much higher than that of underdeveloped nations. We demand mostly what we want and usually waste it too. The system may balance itself out within the system but globally its like fat man with an infinite appetite. Do you think the world could support the living standards of the USA for every undeveloped nation on the face of this planet?
What is apparent now is that global warming, issues of oil being used up, energy consumption ect. all have to do with the "world's resources". Being so caught up in "economy" can lead one to forget the adverse effects if may have to our natural ecosystem. This is illustrated in the Tragedy of the Commons. Developed nations are exceeding the rate at which certain resources on this planet can be replenished. Within the system its all great until one steps back and assess the damage collectively. This is even apparent in the history of civilizations. The Easter Island is a great example. I agree with " They would be amazed how blessed this nation is, with an over-abundance food, homes, clothing, and freedom." But I fear they'd be a little worried if they knew the impact it caused globally. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 7:33:11 PM | Balance is just that. If the invisable hand is not tampered with consumption will reach and equilbrum.
After I've bled for the world's ill's; I don't bleed for them anymore. Most of the ills of the world are self-inflicted. Period.
I would agree to a point that Developing Nations have not reached a point of economic balance, therefore are over consuming. Conversly, this over consumption is leading to an expansion of wealth, freedom, and higher standard of living for these people. I point to Brazil, India, China. So which is the more ethical choice reduction of consumpiton and a return to poverty, or overconsumption (for about 20 years) and more human rights and liberties. It's a tough call. Which need is greater? | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 7:52:30 PM |
So which is the more ethical choice reduction of consumpiton and a return to poverty, or overconsumption (for about 20 years) and more human rights and liberties. It's a tough call. Which need is greater?
Fortunately neither. A purposeful yet better distribution of consumption seems like a possible sollution. Rather, the question is:
Will things work themselves out naturally?
Looking at the history of civilization it would seem that it does, and often through a bloody and stressful revolution. | |
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