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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 8:07:01 PM | I'm not one to call for Revolution at a drop of a hat. I would contend that Revolutions just breed counter-Revoluitons. Look at the African Contenit, the French Revoltion, the Fall of the Western Roman Empire, the End of the First World War. It may settle down but resentments last, or worse you can have a prolonged dark age.
The choice I give can be applied in today's world, not some intellectual exercise. Remember, even in Utopia your going to have to deal with many of the same dynamics that face us in this world. Or better yet, the rebuilding after the transition. How would this state come about? War or some other means that we haven't figured out yet. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 8:33:16 PM |
The "Utopia" we're working on is one that consciously minimizes the damage by living within the means of the ecosystem and not the consumer-producer relationship. The aim is not only one of balance but self actualization. We are not looking to create a self actualized state but looking to provide a more efficient means of reaching self actualization. That is increasing the freedom of people and fostering an environment that makes a person want to be the best of themselves.
@exo
I think you hit the nail on the head with the original intent of dukky's topic.
Back to the discussion:
I hope a bloody revolution does not take place, because I think that will be a breeding ground, for the very thing that we are trying to avoid. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 8:53:52 PM |
I'm not one to call for Revolution at a drop of a hat. I would contend that Revolutions just breed counter-Revoluitons. Look at the African Contenit, the French Revoltion, the Fall of the Western Roman Empire, the End of the First World War. It may settle down but resentments last, or worse you can have a prolonged dark age.
I'm not sure about counter revolutions (I'll have to research) but it's true that the revolutions can bring a prolonged time of hardship. It shouldn't be necessary but its evident that at every major turning point in man's history it's often accompanied with some form of revolution. Whether it be quiet and subtle or loud and bloody. Why should the progression of things be any different now?
The choice I give can be applied in today's world, not some intellectual exercise.
Would the choice be
"Balance is just that. If the invisable hand is not tampered with consumption will reach and equilbrum."
I cannot agree. I don't think it's as simple as a variable approaching a limit. It works for some things but the connection between other things may reveal a much more complicated equation. The assumption is that things will balance out smoothly. Consider that growth can be exponential and unpredictable(baby boomers?). It may mean that when we approach equilibrium the fraction that are left out to dry will have to fight the system for basic needs (famine, revolts, civil wars, severe poverty...ect). This adversely effects the equilibrium itself and history has shown us that often the result is more disaster than was intended.
I hope a bloody revolution does not take place, because I think that will be a breeding ground, for the very thing that we are trying to avoid.
Me too! | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/18/2009 9:21:14 PM |
I think you hit the nail on the head with the original intent of dukky's topic.
I'll say. Diva & Exo, you have both contributed greatly to the concept. Gadget too has contributed in his way, by ponting out possible flaws and impediments to implementation that must be addressed if we are to create a successful society.
The choice I give can be applied in today's world, not some intellectual exercise.
There is a society not too unlike my own already in existence. There are some points of theirs with which I disagree, and so I want to create my own society which I hope to affiliate with the other one. I feel that can be done without too much effort. The only really major difference is that their society places itself under the jurisdiction of the common law, which is a generally acceptable system, but I feel it has areas where it contradicts the natural law upon which it is (mostly) based. It also has no official commitment to sustainable development, which I feel is a must.It does have something of a functional infrastructure, which I'm currently studying.
On the subject of "revolution", there are two kinds. My society would be committed to non-violence, but would reserve the right of self defense, so it the "status quo" society chose to fire the first shot, I'd rather not think about what would happen. Shooting back would not be terribly compassionate would it? Would we be better off to have an avowed policy of non-violence? If we did, and we were attacked (say the way David Koresh's group was attacked), what should we do? | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/19/2009 3:24:16 AM | Gandhi, and Kings ideas only work in a civialization that cares about the rights of men. Should a tyrannical form of government arise, I doubt their methodology would work. See China cercia 1989. I'd like to see others opinions on the topic. Remember Gandhi was dealing with the British Empire, and King the United States, too very liberal enlightend countries.
But, I would answer your question another way. All natural law theorist that I have read acknowlege the right of self defense and self preservation. This goes all the way back to Augisitines, Just war theory. The concept which we draw our Laws of Land Warfare from, Geneva Conventions, and so on.
I only step on the fire ants. Those little **stards hurt when they bit you. Otherwise live and let live. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/19/2009 8:13:17 AM | I only step on the fire ants. Those little **stards hurt when they bit you. Otherwise live and let live.
I have a lot of respect for life and usually leave the ants alone (unless I find 'em in my kitchen! - At that point I figure it's self defense and have the right to protect the resources to which I have laid claim (So it's a "just" war with them being the invaders.  )
That said, I confess I have a bit of a hate-on for mosquitos and try to kill them (again in self defense and to protect "my" resources) whenever they land on me. It should be noted, however that I don't wait for them to bite before I slap, which means in strictest terms that it isn't self defense, but an unprovoked act of aggression on my part, but for some reason I don't have much trouble with my "pre-emptive" attacks.
Actually, the one area where I believe I am a complete hypocrite is in my being a carnivore. Natural law would grant any sentient being it's right to life, yet we raise sentient beings (inefficiently) for the sole purpose of eventual slaughter. This is abhorrent to me and I find the very idea disgusting. However, I still eat meat and don't know how I'd get by without a good steak to eat. I note that a lot of philosophers have "sanctioned" it by proposing that these sentient beings are not moral agents and therefore not entitled to a right to life, but after reading and refuting their arguments as flawed and inconsistent, I can see they do what I'd like to do and that is rationalize our abhorrent behaviour, rather than admit to hypocrisy. For myself, I find that inauthentic and would rather freely admit that I'm being a hypocrite who feels bad about being a carnivore (but not bad enough to stop). Oh, well; at least I no longer eat veal, so I'm moving in the right direction. One step at a time, I guess... | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/19/2009 9:17:24 AM |
I only step on the fire ants. Those little **stards hurt when they bit you.
If I find those in my house, I mash those along with centipedes, spiders, mosquitoes, fruit flies and earwigs.
I'm being a hypocrite who feels bad about being a carnivore
I'm a carnivore and I feel great. I have no guilt. Animals are tasty. And that includes eating Veal and Venison (deer).
I'm sure that at some point I indirectly orphaned Bambi or one of his cousins.
Oh and one other thing... Self-Actualization... I feel that for me to fully reach my potential and self-fulfillment (which is what Self-Actualization really is), I should learn how to use a firearm and get good at hunting. At the moment I'm completely deficient in this area and I've never even held a gun!
But I know I can do it and until I actually do it, I can't really call myself "Self-Actualized".
I think there are members of the NRA who would agree with me...
Okay... I'm being *highly* sarcastic. I have no desire to shoot an animal. But I'm gonna continue to mash bugs I don't want in my house.
But JustDukky, go to an NRA meeting and tell everyone your views of being a carnivore... hell I'll even come with you to help... and protection! Do that and I think you'll gain insight as to how much of an uphill battle it will be to even move a little towards your ideas of an ideal society.
And that's why I'm saying that you should try your hand at trying to solve smaller scale problems like the inequity in the justice system I cited earlier. As I said... the solution for that would be relatively simple and straightforward and would make sense.
But getting it implemented... well... that's another story. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/19/2009 9:36:36 AM | you should try your hand at trying to solve smaller scale problems like the inequity in the justice system
I'm currently working on that....As yet , no results to report insofar as reforming the system for everyone, but we're getting there.
Years ago, I hunted and enjoyed it. I was a crack shot and used to brag that all my shots were brain shots that killed immediately (which was true). Then one day I was out for rabbits (just for laughs - I don't really care for rabbit meat) with a .22. I shot low and hit it's body instead of its brain. I had to chase it down and pump it full of lead as fast as I could before he found his way to a hole. Those shrieks of pain & agony still ring in my head. I have not hunted since.  | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/19/2009 12:38:35 PM |
I have a lot of respect for life and usually leave the ants alone (unless I find 'em in my kitchen! - At that point I figure it's self defense and have the right to protect the resources to which I have laid claim (So it's a "just" war with them being the invaders.
I think you are making fun of me...(sticks tongue out).
But getting it implemented... well... that's another story.
I think that is why it needs to start on a smaller scale. And it actually is!
A lot of the intentional communities actually speak to each other. There is a gathering that happens once a year, and people from all over the States come together to share ideas and such. I haven't had the opportunity to go to one these as of yet, but it is on my list of things to do...
A co-worker and I had a discussion the other day, about when was the last time someone was rude to you. I am talking about daily meanderings in the outside world. And the truth is, I don't encounter it very often. Except for an occasional scrap in the forums, (just the other day I was accused of being "impossible" to have an intelligent conversation with, but I don't take it too personally, since the first sign that a person is losing an argument are flippancy and insults), I really don't encounter a whole lot. I don't know if its due to my profession, attitude or both. Why, just today a gentleman offered to return my grocery cart, since he was going that way. We wave to each other in my neighborhood, and since I am usually pretty friendly, that is what I get in return. (I suffer from southern politeness.) My personal life...sometimes it's a different story...
This is why I have faith in humanity.
I do believe the process will be slow, especially the law making part.
I have faith that, as people become more empowered, (I don't mean to preach on that subject, but it has been my experience), self-actualization is more likely to happen, since a system would be set up to support that. I think, that a society where people have the freedom to find their raison d' etre, and can contribute, and take responsibility (the ability to respond) this might happen quite easily.
My new favorite quote is, "If we make resources infinite, we make war obsolete."
I interpret this to mean, that if our lifestyle reflects our values, and our resources are the fruits of our combined efforts, we weave a web of interdependence, and we have a limitless supply of resources, based upon each one's contribution. We wouldn't need to fight, since our basic needs would be met. Has there ever been a war that was fought over self-actualization?
I am still confused on what ownership of property means.
But our current monetary system would have to go, and I agree with Dukky's concept of this. Our current system is based upon income = a reflection of comparative value, which is a system I find really screwed up. Why do teachers make so little, while CEOs make so much. And don't tell me it has to with responsibility...don't get me started on that subject... I am anti-capitalism myself, and have felt this way since high school, when I first understood the impact capitalism has had on the economy.
I think I am outing myself as a bit of a leftist here...
Anyway, I am done rambling...
Well, almost...I do kill gnats... | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/19/2009 1:00:28 PM |
Why do teachers make so little
Because many people want to be teachers... hence a greater supply of them. A greater supply means that it's easier to keep wages down. And if you want to jack up teacher's wages, then you should also ask to have your property taxes or rent jacked up as well. After all, where do you think the money is gonna come from?
while CEOs make so much.
Because there aren't many around with the experience needed...AND... the job involves long hours... AND CEOs are charged with taking calculated risks that will affect many people... so it's a lot of responsibility.
I am anti-capitalism myself,
So then you'd be willing to do your job for nothing?
I think I am outing myself as a bit of a leftist here...
A bit?
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/19/2009 1:30:31 PM | First off I just want to say...BITE ME, zeke! Oh...am I being rude?
You are just looking for a good scrap. Fortunate for YOU, I am feeling scrappy...
Because many people want to be teachers... hence a greater supply of them.
Not to start a States vs. Canadian thing...but we have had shortages here. A lot teachers have left the profession due to the low income.
And if you want to jack up teacher's wages, then you should also ask to have your property taxes or rent jacked up as well.
I don't own any property. I do pay rent, however. Do I expect other people to pick up the slack? We are discussing the building of a Utopian society that fosters self actualization...at least I thought we were...
Because there aren't many around with the experience needed...AND... the job involves long hours... AND CEOs are charged with taking calculated risks that will affect many people... so it's a lot of responsibility.
Experienced is gained through application of experience tried...AND...many people would be happy to work those long hours in order to attain the position...and income...AND do you sincerely believe, that teachers aren't faced with the same risk? And have less responsibility?
So then you'd be willing to do your job for nothing?
I frequently do my job for nothing. There are a lot people that I massage, whom I don't charge. I also do a lot of barter and trade, which I guess does not constitute as doing my job for nothing. I guess I consider it a symbiotic relationship...
I think I am outing myself as a bit of a leftist here... A bit? Okay, you've got me there...  | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/19/2009 4:20:02 PM |
First off I just want to say...BITE ME, zeke! Oh...am I being rude?
Well Diva... I'd like to say... Come to Toronto, serve up your @ss to me and I WILL BITE IT. I have been known to bite... Just ask my Ex...
Not to start a States vs. Canadian thing...but we have had shortages here. A lot teachers have left the profession due to the low income.
And those shortages will remain until corrective action is taken in the form of higher wages and higher taxes. The two go hand in hand.
And no, it's not a US vs Canada thing. It's more of a municipality/county thing. Some municipalities/counties love to brag how low the taxes are. But guess what? You pay nothing, then nothing is what you get.
I live in Toronto. While the taxes are a little higher on a per given lot size basis than where I used to live (a suburb called Mississauga), in my first hand observation, the school my kids are in is definitely better and run to a higher standard.
And I know for a fact that Toronto pays higher wages to teachers than Mississauga does.
I don't own any property. I do pay rent, however. Do I expect other people to pick up the slack? We are discussing the building of a Utopian society that fosters self actualization...at least I thought we were...
And the biggest issue in EVERY society is efficient and FAIR distribution of resources. You can argue that communism is fair, but there's no way in hell that it's efficient.
In our current society, it's might not be perfectly equitable, but the efficiency more than makes up for it.
And the fact of the matter is, there is already some wealth redistribution that happens... so there are people picking up the slack for you whether you're asking for it or not.
But it depends where you are. When it comes to school funding and fairness, the system in Ontario... particularly Toronto... is more fair than places in the US that I've read about where the rich areas get tons of funding while poor areas barely have enough to get by.
Remember I said to OP to not foolishly ignore the things that DO work in our current society.
As an IT person I can tell you that sometimes when you fix one problem, one or more new problems show up as a result.
And that was the problem with communism's problem... sure things were 'equitable', but because there was such terrible efficiency AND NO INCENTIVE TO BE EFFICIENT, the net result was that people were poorer overall.
Experienced is gained through application of experience tried...AND...many people would be happy to work those long hours in order to attain the position...and income...AND do you sincerely believe, that teachers aren't faced with the same risk? And have less responsibility?
The fact of the matter is that Teachers are far more replaceable than CEOs. And yes... teachers have less responsibility than a CEO. If a teacher messes up, at worst, 30-40 the kids don't learn as much as they should have. If a CEO messes up... Like Mr Wagoner who is the recent EX-CEO of General Motors, THOUSANDS of people's livelihoods are at stake. And by extension, that affects the well-being of their kids.
I frequently do my job for nothing. There are a lot people that I massage, whom I don't charge. I also do a lot of barter and trade, which I guess does not constitute as doing my job for nothing. I guess I consider it a symbiotic relationship...
When I say 'for nothing', I'm not referring to the odd bit of charity to those in need. After all, almost every large corporation gives to charity.
No... I'm talking about COMPLETELY for free. You can't do it. Everything costs something. Even if you got rid of the monetary system, you wouldn't get rid of the cost. All you'd get rid of is an efficient tool/method of value-transfer.
Okay, you've got me there...
But don't worry... I still love you...
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/19/2009 4:29:11 PM | The high wages are called tournment pay because not everyone can preform at a high level. Any one can be a teacher, even here in Carolina. However, we've increased their wages for the last 3 years under Easely, and now we have to frough many of them. Government doesn't manage money well. This can also be seen as a result of the economic down-turn and lower tax revenue.
Diva you need to come to Fayettenam there a plenty of rude people here. As for the rest of the state, some of the sweetest most charming people I've ever come across.
Like you I've been a good neighbor and done something for nothing. My neighbors and I share and share alike. It is a bit of a commune atmosphere but without the politics.
I guess that is why I haven't completely lost my hope in humanity.
Oh don't worry about being a leftist, the right hand needs the left and vice versa.  :  | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/19/2009 10:31:30 PM | @ Gadget
The following is my attempt to answer the question you asked on another thread. I thought it most appropriate to post it here.
<div class="quote">What would your ratio be for the governed representives shall we say 1 for every 10,000 at the nation state level?
Oh boy, that's a toughie, because nothing is really carved in stone here and is easily subject to revision at this point. However, I'll give you my reasoning for the "Levels" breakdown and my current guess for an optimal comittee size:
A committee at the "lowest" level (a community population of about 500 people say) should be comprised (in my estimation) of 5 people. This is the number I currently feel best able to make rational decisions (considering there may be 1 or two members whose reasoning may not be top notch) without getting bogged down much in disagreement ( a small committee would provide more of a "team" atmosphere and be less subject to any sort of partisanship)
Next level up (2) might be about 50 communities (about 250 lower level committee members, who would decide which 5 of them would form the committee for the third level "community" (which now incorporates about say 50,000 people total - one could probably consider this a "city" level community.
The next level (3) would be pretty much the same thing, but with higher numbers. It would consist of a 5 member committee chosen from say 50 level 2 communities (in the range of 50,000 people each) totalling 2.5 million people say. It is hard to determine an optimal number at this point, as by now, geographic factors become a major consideration that I haven't even addressed yet and may have to alter the model for. For the time being let's leave that out and try to work it in later in terms of some sort of rule base for the geographic distribution of communities.
Following this sort of rule o thumb, we might have level 4 communities composed of the population of an entire large nation, from which (eventually) 5 committee members would be selected to go to a world congress of level 4 communities of say 200 (formerly?) "nation-states".
The job of the committes will be to audit the performance of the various civil service agencies and service corporations and to alter the management of same if required and to ensure that they are performing their assigned tasks properly. Of course all meetings are to be entirely public and completely transparent to help prevent bribery of officials, lobbying & other forms of graft. The various committees (especially at the higher levels) may require aides (and/or auditors) themselves and these may be selected in the same manner as the committees themselves from the "lower level" communities.
Another job the committees will have is proposing new business (a new supercollider say, or a space probe, etc) and a budget to accomodate all the projected expenses. These proposals would form a budget to be passed by a "congress" composed of the next level down (with the clear understanding that each level may only work with some predetermined percentage of the total budget allocation - For argument lets say the "surplus" is 3 trillion dollars globally, which constitutes a shareholder profit of say 5%. To simplify things for the moment, let's say with 5 community levels, the global level gets 1/5 of that ($600,000,000,000 - remember this would be surplus, not the entire budget, which would be based o a global GDP of say $60 trillion)), the 4th level gets the same but divided by say 200 ($3,000,000,000 each for their projects, which might be new bridges, etc). The level 3 communities get the same, say but this time it is divided by an additional factor of 40, so they get $75,000,000 each. The level 2 communities divide out an additional factor of 50 for $1,500,000 each. The level one communities divide that by another 50 for $30,000 each. Now assuming an average size of say 200 members, that leaves each member with a profit of $600.00, which doesn't sound like much, but that is after any expense draws taken out over the year by any individual and without paying taxes "out of pocket" for various government expenses. Said profit may be left in the "pot" as a financial reserve for possible future hard times, or to increase the pension at retirement, or it may be pulled to put toward a new TV or some other such crap.
It should be noted also, that this accounts for a fairly uniform distribution of wealth over the entire planet, so (for instance) Ethiopians will still do OK even if the harvest stinks and they would ordinarily be facing another famine. More productive units would in effect subsidize them through the hard times, thus making the world a better place. The reasonable (and hopefully sustainable) sharing of resources globally would likely result in an end to war, even under the old "leadership" system, but under the new system we'd be better off yet because if it became a global thing that "absorbed all countries, there would be no real need for the manufacture of war goods, so productivity could be directed toward better things than killing people in droves. Think of it...a world without war, and probably without famine, wherein we can produce enough to feed, clothe and shelter everybody on the planet and still be able to advance the arts & sciences & provide decent education and medical care to everyone. An idealistic dream? Maybe, but one well worth the dreaming and I suspect well worth the attempt to make it a reality.
None of this is carved in stone, and in fact it's just something I quickly threw together in an attempt to answer your question. There may be errors and of course there may be much "missing", but I think it should give you an idea of what I envision.
That was a helluva lot of typing and it's getting late, so I'm leavin' for some beers... | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/19/2009 11:11:52 PM | happy with NOTHING!
with spiritual growth.
presuppose food and shelter. you will contribute to eat.
you get the drift.
why do we want anything? its to contribute to that preceived HAPPINESS!
WHICH YOU WILL NOT GET WITH MATERIAL GOODS!
do we need more proof? I guess so! | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/20/2009 3:44:48 AM | {quote]The next level (3) would be pretty much the same thing, but with higher numbers. It would consist of a 5 member committee chosen from say 50 level 2 communities (in the range of 50,000 people each) totalling 2.5 million people say. It is hard to determine an optimal number at this point, as by now, geographic factors become a major consideration that I haven't even addressed yet and may have to alter the model for. For the time being let's leave that out and try to work it in later in terms of some sort of rule base for the geographic distribution of communities.
Dukky thanks for the answer, however at this level I would say 5 is too small of a number to govern effectively, also, could lead to greater couruption. Look at most African States and you'll see my reasoning in practice. Needs some revision.
I don't have the time now but I need to define defiect, debt, and surplus. Not all the same. Debt is money owed. Defiect is we didn't collect as much money as we projected in our budget. Surplus, we collected more then projected, but doesn't mean we have extra money because of that pesky thing called debt. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 8/20/2009 6:47:24 AM |
I don't have the time now but I need to define defiect, debt, and surplus
Don't forget to look into a social credit monetary system. That would eliminate interest paid to banks as an expense. which should free up whatever percentage interest the central banks currently gouge us for. It is also theoretically more effective and efficient that the current debt based monetary system.
On the subject of the committees, don't forget that each delegate/auditor/rep will be able to have assistants and that their job will revolve around overseeing the public servants & service corporations & reporting back to the various congresses (assemblies of communities from which they are pulled)
I would say 5 is too small of a number to govern effectively
Don't forget that as the number increases, decisionmaking will become more "committee-like" and less efficient as a result of probable infighting & partisanship. The larger the number of people, the less "teamlike" the atmosphere and it could well move from cooperation and concerted effort to adversarial disagreements that could deadlock a committee. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/28/2009 3:49:34 PM |
So how are the plans for the Stalini--- I mean Utopian society coming along?
Quite nicely thanks. Like germinating seeds, like-minded people are popping up everywhere. It won't be too long before the communities start to form. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/28/2009 4:03:03 PM |
Quite nicely thanks. Like germinating seeds, like-minded people are popping up everywhere. It won't be too long before the communities start to form.
Well, hurry up Dukky...I am waiting...
I have valuable skills to offer, I promise. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/28/2009 9:23:49 PM | hopefully I'm following you duck.
each of us, must, I think reach for self-actualization, every day.
you can't be talked into it.
its a realization.
a form of spirituality is involved.
but hey, 99% of us will continue to chase the almighty buck! [or other material crap!]
even if we have more then we can possibly spend.
that internal goodness in us seems to get distracted by materialism of some sort from the " always looking to the next buzz", world.
I, and others, though few, don't believe in always setting worldly goals.
they keep the mind preocupied with materialistic, mostly unimportant stuff.
[eating is good, though!]
[I like a couple of beer too, now you know] | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/29/2009 7:00:16 AM | ^^^ Wouldn't beer and other alcohol be banned in Utopia?
After all, it technically offers little or no health benefit. Oh sure, wine has some benefits... but all the benefits you get from wine, you also get from regular grape juice.
And the health costs associated with alcohol consumption would mean that it's too expensive a resource to offer in a truly utopian society when you look at the total end to end cost.
If the goal of utopia is that everyone is happy, then having a depressant like alcohol available would be counterproductive.
There are more important things to allocate resources to... Like food, shelter, solar panels, etc...
Wouldn't you rather have a solar panel than a beer?
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(I'm not a pacifist though...I routinely step on ants for my cruelty fix 
