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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/29/2009 9:41:51 AM | I used to wonder why humanity, after thousands of years of yearning, simply seems unable to achieve a utopia. Some tyrant always seems to emerge somewhere or is made up to be emerging somewhere and the cycle of fear and the need for defense re-proliferates in the psyche. Death, suffering and destruction always follows.
I believe people to be of basically two mindsets; those who have overcome the beast within and those who have not. Firstly, I need to say this notion has nothing to do with religion which we, as philosophical people, well know has been one of history's greatest causes of division and hate among the human brotherhood. Enlightenment can only dawn on man when the secret of his separable body and consciousness and the truth of the eternal nature of his consciousness is revealed and accepted. Enlightenment releases him from the grip of "the beast". Fear is replaced with quiet peace, joy and anticipation of the return "home" at life's end.
If those who are so enlightened were all to move to one continent there would be no war, no dishonesty, and no conscious harm to any other on such continent, the inhabitants thereof being well aware of Universal Law and the inevitable suffering they will endure for offenses against others.
Yet, even on such a continent of wise folk care would need to be taken with their offspring, for they will not necessarily accept their parents teaching, and may steal, lie or kill; in which case the heartbreaking ordeal of sending the child to one of the continents of the unenlightened will need to be endured. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/29/2009 6:04:40 PM |
they will not necessarily accept their parents teaching, and may steal, lie or kill
The only way to preserve a free and just society is to know that some people are self-serving opportunists who will do anything they can to gain advantage. That is why such a society would of necessity assume that nobody could EVER be placed in a position of public trust. (By that I mean the public must assume its servants cannot be trusted, so transparency and the scrutiny of public oversight would always be required of business, legislators and the courts.) Among other things there would be no more of that "national security" "secret" crap that governments use to collude against the people they are supposed to serve. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/30/2009 3:01:39 AM | I just don't believe this utopian society thing is possible.
In the animal kingdom, there's always the 'alpha dog'.... and humans are a part of that, whether we accept it or not.
It's just nature. And I don't believe it's possible to completely go against nature (natural/instinctual/inherent characteristics).
Now obviously, a lot of it has to do with environment and learned behaviour.... but the 'trait' (for lack of better word) is somehow a part of (or triggered in) the DNA structure, thus it gets passed on generation after generation.
On the other hand, it may be possible with continuous re-conditioning of this aggressive trait (gene ?) of the entire populace...... but we're talking numerous generations in order to alter and redirect human evolution (I'm talking biological, not cranial). The aggressive trait is most definately somewhere in the DNA make-up (which is why it's throughout all of the animal kingdom), and not just in the psychological behaviour(s).
Now as for social restructuring, that's within our grasps.... but it's inevitable to continuously fail time and again due to the biological aspect of aggression not being altered at the same time.
Remember, it was only a minute ago (in terms of the evolutionary time scale) that we were swinging from the trees.
So until science can pinpoint it, and learn how to alter it..... a perfect peaceful utopian society is just not possible.
Just my $.02 | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/30/2009 7:58:43 AM |
I just don't believe this utopian society thing is possible.
In the animal kingdom, there's always the 'alpha dog'.... and humans are a part of that, whether we accept it or not.
When I was a kid in grade school there was a bully that used to terrorize all the smaller kids. A few of us got fed up with being picked on and ganged up on him & beat the snot out of him. Of course that didn't change his nature (he was still just a rotten a$$hole) but he wasn't able to scare us anymore. He'd lost his place as "master' of the schoolyard. Kids weren't afraid of him (because they knew the other kids would help if he tried to pick on them) or of "recess" anymore. You might say the schoolyard had become a "utopia" governed by the free and just society of the kids who went there. As long as the kids knew they could count on each other for help if it was needed, everything was fine.
I don't see why that can't be applied at the global level! We'll never eliminate the psychopaths presently in power, but if we want to, we can take that power away and keep them in line so people like them can never rise to power again. Once the people take over, all it will take is to step on the "bullies" at the first sign of a power grab.
a perfect peaceful utopian society is just not possible.
If we take out the word "perfect" (nothing is), it's not only possible, but absolutely necessary if we are to survive as a species. The next fifty years are going to be hell for all of us, even in a utopian society (people ARE going to starve by the millions in the next few years and wars over resources are almost inevitable - North America is going to be hit so hard it will feel like we've been run over by a freight train. Many of us and our children are going to die, some horribly, but that can't be avoided now). It is only through the determination in EACH ONE OF US and coordination of all our efforts that we will survive. I don't know about anyone else, but if extinction is to be our lot, I'm not going easily or quietly; for all the evil within us, there is simply too much good to allow mankind to self-destruct without the best fight we can put up. It will be one helluva fight, but I know we'll win if we can wake up and take the reigns(sic) of power. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/30/2009 11:20:53 AM | Above all species humans seem to be the only ones capable of going against their natural programming. Utopia is possible. I've been studying this utopia thing for a while now and came to the following conclusions.
Humans are very social creatures. The most fundamental thing governing any society is its ideology/philosophy. Every war, famine, or any human related disaster can always be traced to a conflicting ideology. Its a pattern I've found that no human can live without a philosophy and often that philosophy is very similar to the ideology in a group a person is a member off. If one was born into the Christian church it wouldn't be surprising if that person has a dislike for gays because of their ideological upbringing. This phenomenon is rampant through history and it takes a revolution, or its peaceful cousin the paradigm shift, to modify, change, or remove any longstanding ideology. Slavery is a big example. World war II is another example.
The conclusion follows that no human group can exist without an ideology to base one's personal philosophy on.
So things aren't looking so hot for the human race. Nature is a thing unto itself, and it's also the greatest a**hole...no the greatest flaming douchebag when its laws are crossed. We are a result of nature. We need to follow her laws "or else". Therefore whatever ideologies we may have must fundamentally complement natures laws.
At present that isn't the case. Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, fascism and so on. All of them are not inline with nature. They all fail, and they fail because their aim does not include "nature" but only the human condition. As if we are more than animals. The problem is that whatever solution we seek we seek only for ourselves. If its the human that is the most important factor then killing a million chickens for the life of one human is justified, irrespective of the damages that would have on the surrounding environment. Instead of our ideologies embracing nature and seeking to enrich natures ecosystem, our ideologies act like big terraforming instruments of mass destruction. In short we're giving nature the birdie and deciding, quite foolishly, that we are our own nature. As if we're the result of ourselves.
people ARE going to starve by the millions in the next few years and wars over resources are almost inevitable - North America is going to be hit so hard it will feel like we've been run over by a freight train. Many of us and our children are going to die, some horribly, but that can't be avoided now
What's the difference between a tribal system and civilized society?
Tribal systems reuse their resources and their ideologies are often inline with nature.
Civilized society transforms resources into incompatible forms:
The enormous stew of trash - which consists of 80 percent plastics and weighs some 3.5 million tons, say oceanographers - floats where few people ever travel, in a no-man's land between San Francisco and Hawaii.
Civilized society is not inline with nature. Consider Hollywood. Nature loves it when one uses something and whatever transformation that something undergoes it is a resource for something else. But Hollywood? What does Hollywood transform and use that is a resource for something else (preferably not human).
In the animal kingdom, there's always the 'alpha dog'.... and humans are a part of that, whether we accept it or not.
What good are alpha dogs? Is Bill Gates an alpha Dog? In the animal kingdom an alpha dog is specific within the social group it is in. A Gorilla has instincts and a silver-back Gorilla is born with the instincts and attributes to be 'alpha' within its society. This is not comparable with humans because no one human is born with a specific set of attributes or traits to determine whether the individual is alpha or not. Alpha is a learned ability and how one is alpha is determined by the environment and ideologies within a society/social group.
Also, tyrants are not to be likened to alphas. An alpha seeks to make sure a group functions properly. A tyrant (like an animal in a room filled with free food) seeks to use resources for his own benefit. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/30/2009 11:34:05 AM | The solution?
To be honest the system we have now has its quirks, but its advantages cannot be ignored. Personally I think the solution is a synergy between the system we have now and natures laws (thanks to JustDukky for illuminating this). And because we as humans abhor change I think the best solution should be implemented gradually. (I still like the commune Idea and I've been toying with a economic system based on universal insurance and resourceful trade)
All in all, humanity is still a child experiencing growth pains. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/30/2009 11:50:10 AM | people do glomp on to leaders. any leader, it seems.
someone makes some leadership noise, and off we go and follow him.
most are mediocre.
you know the bad ones.
I think people don't think things through, and will follow the first thing that "moves"
to make a point, even the jews led by god, wanted an earthly leader.
we are very materialistic, we want to see everything, and will believe anything.
was it lincoln that said;
all get fooled sometime. [I'll emphasise this one]
some all the time
but never all, all the time.
so, all worldly systems haven't been tryed yet? | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 9/30/2009 12:53:47 PM |
so, all worldly systems haven't been tryed yet?
No, they haven't. Man the herd animal has always been a follower. Thousands of years of our history shows us where he is led. This time man should be the leader, in charge of and responsible for himself and working in concert with his fellow man as heads of government, rather than as subjects of it. Flip the power pyramid upside down and you'll know what I mean. All power comes from us. I think it's time we learned to quit delegating it to servants who act like our masters! | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/1/2009 4:11:32 PM | Exogenist,
Some commentary on your last post:
Above all species humans seem to be the only ones capable of going against their natural programming.
That's a very presumptuous statement since we really don't know all there is to know about all species. Consider as well that we don't even fully understand what *our* programming is... so you can't reasonably say what is and isn't against our natural programming.
Utopia is possible. I've been studying this utopia thing for a while now and came to the following conclusions.
I believe anything is possible... if you spend enough time and resources on it.
Is Utopia possible? Sure if you genetically develop and clone a society of perfect people. Failing that, Utopia isn't gonna happen based on my knowledge of what Utopia is and how it DOESN'T mesh with how people actually are.
Every war, famine, or any human related disaster can always be traced to a conflicting ideology.
But don't forget as well that in destruction are usually the seeds of renewal.
Its a pattern I've found that no human can live without a philosophy and often that philosophy is very similar to the ideology in a group a person is a member off. If one was born into the Christian church it wouldn't be surprising if that person has a dislike for gays because of their ideological upbringing.
I disagree... plenty of humans live without a philosophy... just look at all the Atheists... but then you can consider the absence of religion a philosophy too. It all depends how loose your definition of 'philosophy' is.
As for whether one was born into a Christian Church... I was born into one... and I have no issue with gay people. I even went to the Gay Pride parade this past summer.
You're too quick to dismiss the fact that some people will choose to Think for Themselves.
So things aren't looking so hot for the human race.
I disagree... I think the human race is better than it ever has been simply based on global population numbers. And in terms of actual hotness... we're getting hotter all the time with Global Warming...  ... Although I gotta say that the growing obesity problem does make more people a who lot less hot.
Socialism, Capitalism, Communism, fascism and so on. All of them are not inline with nature.They all fail...
I disagree simply because it isn't that cut and dried. You can have a capitalist society with socialist elements (like Canada)... and you can have a Communist society with Capitalist elements (China).
As for whether they are in line with nature... Nope sorry... that's not true all the time either. Take a trip over to Europe and note how various 'Green Parties' have plenty of political clout. And I can easily argue that a real capitalist society, when proper economic frameworks are put in place to ensure efficient use of resources, has a natural alignment to nature.
Civilized society is not inline with nature. Consider Hollywood.
Yes... let's consider Hollywood... and consider why the air quality in California has been IMPROVING over the past few decades due to environmental protection laws.
Capitalism recognizes that there is a cost to destroying the environment... only that this is a more recent realization. But just because it's recent, doesn't make it less valid.
What's the difference between a tribal system and civilized society? Tribal systems reuse their resources and their ideologies are often inline with nature.
Just because a society is Tribal, doesn't mean it is uncivilized. And the reuse of resources has more to do with necessity rather than the system in use.
Go to Cuba... you'll see plenty of reuse of resources there... and that ISN'T a tribal society.
Is Bill Gates an alpha Dog?
He is in the Software industry...
This is not comparable with humans because no one human is born with a specific set of attributes or traits to determine whether the individual is alpha or not.
As a father of two kids, I can say that some kids ARE born that way. I have one child who is that way and one who isn't. So I strongly disagree with that statement.
If being an Alfa is strictly a learned ability, it means that everyone can be an Alfa. I strongly disagree with that as well. Not everyone has that capability within them. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/2/2009 3:44:12 PM | from post By: JustDukky on 9/30/2009 10 43 AM:
"The next fifty years are going to be hell for all of us, even in a utopian society (people ARE going to starve by the millions in the next few years and wars over resources are almost inevitable - North America is going to be hit so hard it will feel like we've been run over by a freight train. Many of us and our children are going to die, some horribly, but that can't be avoided now"
I won't contradict the above. I know an awful lot of starvation is already in progress in some countries. However, I can't imagine North America facing this prospect (unless there's some drastic large scale change in climate). Possible financial collapse doesn't mean that our land no longer is fertile or that the sun stops shining on our plants. Our cows will still give milk or yield beef if there's grass. Houses will still be standing for us to move into even if there's no way to make payments on them. Survival in our present society has always meant struggle and determination even in the best of times. Those who are unwilling to put up a fight in the way of hard work will need to take a reality check though. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/2/2009 6:00:44 PM |
Those who are unwilling to put up a fight in the way of hard work will need to take a reality check though.
Why don't we start fighting and doing the hard work now? Why do we sit and watch as millions starve?
I'll admit that I made that post to shake people out of their complacency and stimulate some discussion. The near future doesn't have to be that way if we start preparing now, but how many of us are? How many of us are actively seeking a better solution to the hunger problem than letting the hungry die? I'll tell you, practically none. They are all thinking the government will figure something out. The only thing government seems to be able to do successfully is rob it's citizens and kill foreigners, so I can bet you that is their solution to world hunger. Let's not count on government to bail us out; the only thing they can bail out is those poor starving bankers. Good thing for them the people don't mind having their pockets picked clean to help keep the bankers out of the breadlines. It would sure be nice if government had half the compassion for people that it has for bankers! | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/3/2009 3:16:22 AM | There will never be a utopia so long as individuality exists . we all seek that moment when everthing seems perfect and , since I'm not sure what 'self actualisation' means , i can't comment . We reach truth and happiness by an effort of will over sadness and death and alot of really shitty things . | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/3/2009 3:22:11 AM |
There will never be a utopia so long as individuality exists
What if individuality is just an illusion and it turns out that we are all just different manifestations of the same thing? | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/3/2009 7:04:34 AM | "different manifestations"... saying 'different' is just another way of saying Individually Unique.
But for argument's sake, if we were all part of the same thing, then, for example, you would probably have some measure of control over my opinions/actions and vice versa.
Individuality isn't an illusion. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/3/2009 1:00:03 PM | @ zekestone
Thank you. You made some brilliant points that I missed in my reasoning. I can fine tune things now.
Specifically, I was looking at the issue in terms of groups. It is my belief that humans are social creatures. Society deals with groups. Therefore if there is to be any type of utopia, its all going to have to deal with the group.
I didn't put any emphasis on individuality and here is why.
In a complex adaptive system such as the human body, the cell alone doesn't have that much effect as much as a collection of cells (the tissue). It is slightly different with society but similar nonetheless. Within a society, for there to be change there must be collective will to change. Often that will to change is fueled by some (***ideology, or philosophy) belief.
(***my definition of philosophy is very loose. It is loose to the point that every living human who can think must have a belief (Atheism to me is a belief. It is the belief that "deities do not exist." Perhaps it would be more accurate if the word philosophy in my reasoning is exchanged with belief. Since ideologies and philosophies can be considered beliefs, I will use the word belief instead of ideology or philosophy).
With a human body every cell has DNA in the way that every human has a belief. The tendencies and actions of a human are directly related to their belief. We know that in DNA is the formation of molecules in a special double helix pattern. But how are beliefs influenced? Is it not through culture, dogmas, ideologies, philosophies, observations, and what we could grasp as meanings?
For a person who was grown in a christian environment, he/she may or may not like gays. But isn't it a fact that Christianity has, in some way, shaped the belief of the individual raised in its environment. Even if its the belief that Christianity is utter rubbish?
It is for that reason why I think that beliefs are the product of human tendency (tendency as in directly relating to DNA) and environment. Since humans are a product of nature and nature in Earth's environment is built on an ecosystem with laws. Then isn't the least damaging belief one that is fundamentally based on natures law?
If its one thing I've noticed is that everything is a process. If President Obama says there must be change and a majority of people agree with him, then isn't it an indication that the system we have in place now could be better?
Then how could it be better? Mixing it with more socialism? Introduce a set of legislation based on existentialism?
You see beliefs influence everything. Even the man that has a million people behind him is following him not because he is alpha, but because of a belief (this is a presumptuous statement, but does any man follow a cause without coercion without believing in it?).
Therefore if the least damaging belief is one that is fundamentally based on natures law, then shouldn't society with all its ideologies and philosophies be based on natures law (I consider human individuality and tendency, relating to a humans DNA and the way a human acts because of it to be part of natures law) to aim for utopia?
This is why I think Utopia is possible just by changing how humans are social. Possible in the way that a function converges to a limit. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/3/2009 1:13:04 PM | {quote]What if individuality is just an illusion and it turns out that we are all just different manifestations of the same thing?
Let a human = A.
A= 3x+6
A has the form y=mx+b
There are an infinite amount of equations with the form y=mx+b. If human is y=mx+b then an individual man must be A= 3x+6.
Therefore we are different manifestations of the single form human. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/5/2009 11:12:13 AM |
we are different manifestations of the single form human.
What I originally meant was consideration that we are all part of the same consciousness, tied to an illusion of individuality and separateness. If the "individual" consciousness is the sum total of the individual "consciousnesses" of every functional neuron in the brain, we see that an individual is only an aggregate of many individuals, working together to function at a whole other level. That aggregate consciousness (a working human brain) creates a field, which can affect other fields close by. Is that so different from a neuron, which can only affect other nearby neurons?
Is it not reasonable to think that there is a possibility that the aggregate of the working brain fields might "connect" (influence) each other in such a way that a "meta-consciousness" could form? Does a neuron know it's part of a brain? Would we know whether or not we were part of a meta-consciousness?
In the same way that a neuron loses it's "individuality" to be a functional part of a greater whole, is it not possible that the same could be true of us? | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/6/2009 3:17:53 PM |
But isn't it a fact that Christianity has, in some way, shaped the belief of the individual raised in its environment.
Yes... but HOW it can shape someone isn't a narrow scope of change. The change it causes will be hugely different from someone who experiences it as an Oppressive force versus someone who doesn't.
If a religion is a rock and society is a pool and you throw that rock in the water, do you believe that the waves that causes will affect everyone the same way? And note that some might not see the wave at all and instead have the rock land on their heads!
If President Obama says there must be change and a majority of people agree with him, then isn't it an indication that the system we have in place now could be better?
If Obama says there must be change and people see his reasoning and the necessary change actually takes place, that's an indication to me that the system we have in place now is working in a way that ensures things get better sooner or later.
You see beliefs influence everything. Even the man that has a million people behind him is following him not because he is alpha, but because of a belief (this is a presumptuous statement, but does any man follow a cause without coercion without believing in it?).
Obama isn't the leader due to believe as you describe it. He's the leader because he got enough votes. And he got enough votes because he was Wealthy enough to mount a proper campaign.
This is why I think Utopia is possible just by changing how humans are social. Possible in the way that a function converges to a limit.
I am now thinking of The Borg in Star Trek...
The beings that made up The Borg had their method of being social changed too!
The flaw in the plan is many won't take to kindly to being forced to change their method of being social.
The other issue is that not everyone is social to the same degree... and that complicates things immensely.
And even when you change the method of being social won't fix the issue of opposing beliefs... like alcohol vs no alcohol in Utopia. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/6/2009 3:31:02 PM |
If Obama says there must be change and people see his reasoning and the necessary change actually takes place, that's an indication to me that the system we have in place now is working in a way that ensures things get better sooner or later.
Well Obama said there were gonna be changes, but I notice he got busy and didn't make any. It doesn't much matter now, because he's gonna have to do as he's told by the Fed and the IMF, so the US is no longer a free country run by "the people"; not even officially; it is now just a bankrupt pawn in the hands of international bankers.
even when you change the method of being social won't fix the issue of opposing beliefs... like alcohol vs no alcohol in Utopia.
Where is there a problem with that? People who don't wanna drink don't have to and have no right to tell the ones that do wanna drink that they can't. So why can't the wets & drys live together harmoniously? | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/6/2009 3:33:19 PM |
Let a human = A.
Okay.
A= 3x+6
Why does A have to equal 3x+6? Why not 10x+7? Or 3.14x+69?
And what does X stand for?
A has the form y=mx+b
No it doesn't. That's the equation of a line on an x/y axis. You just said a human is equal to 3x+6. A human being is not a line on an x/y axis and a line on an x/y axis is not a human being.
There are an infinite amount of equations with the form y=mx+b. If human is y=mx+b then an individual man must be A= 3x+6.
An infinite number of *lines* actually...
And a line is not the same thing as a human.
Applying a two dimensional equation to a 3 dimensional being strikes me as wrong.
Now taking the DNA approach... yeah, everyone shares most of their DNA with everyone else.
Does that mean individuality does not exist?
Nope.
It only means that you're not looking hard enough... | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/6/2009 3:57:37 PM |
Well Obama said there were gonna be changes, but I notice he got busy and didn't make any.
Well that's not surprising since there was a little banking crisis that has been keeping him busy.
And I do believe that this will spell the end of the NINJA mortgage.
But I do recall that there are now plans to pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan. So that right there is a change... a change in policy... which the first step for the rest to happen.
t doesn't much matter now, because he's gonna have to do as he's told by the Fed and the IMF, so the US is no longer a free country run by "the people";
Sure it is... The US as free as any individual is who overspends for years and now has to pay the piper. The US is free to go into debt and is free to do different things to get out of debt.
The only thing the US can't control are how much lenders ask for so that they will *continue* to keep lending. At some point, the debt gets high enough that lenders will either say "no more" or they will only lend more at loan shark rates.
The US is still free to choose *how* they will get their fiscal house in order. But there are really only 3 options:
1. Cut spending
2. Increase revenue (higher taxes)
3. A combination of 1 and 2
The question isn't whether this will be done, but when. Canada went through this in the early 1990s... which was a really nasty recession for Canada but not nearly as bad for the US.
When you go into debt, you have the responsibility to meet those debt covenants.
Remember the saying "With freedom comes responsibility"... That's EXACTLY what's going on...
Where is there a problem with that? People who don't wanna drink don't have to and have no right to tell the ones that do wanna drink that they can't. So why can't the wets & drys live together harmoniously?
Yeah you would think that would be the case right? How about you and I take a trip to Saudi Arabia and have a beer in public then... you know... outside the compounds where foreigners stay.
Assuming we even get into the country with our beers, what would likely happen is that you and I would become bunk mates in prison. And it wouldn't matter that we weren't trying to pour beer down a dry person's throat.
People pressure other people into doing what they do to validate their own life choices. I've seen it a million times.
You and I having a beer for ourselves shouldn't affect any of the dry Saudis... but you know what? That's not how things work.
Now you might say "well that's Saudi Arabia... we're in North America". To that I say that here are also dry communities in North America too. Some native communities have gone dry, for example, to combat chronic alcoholism.
Two areas with people that say they CANNOT knowingly coexist with alcohol drinkers for two sets of entirely different reasons. But both will tell you that Alcohol is Evil.
And this is for a fairly simple issue too... | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/6/2009 5:58:08 PM |
Remember the saying "With freedom comes responsibility"... That's EXACTLY what's going on...
Did the people really ask the government(s) to mismanage the economy for them? It strikes me that none of the elections ever did any good. All it meant was putting a new mismanager, who could blame the last guy while he tries his own hand at running the ship of state into the rocks.
Governments are far less responsible than the people who vote for them. Since elections don't work, maybe it's time for armed revolt?
How about you and I take a trip to Saudi Arabia and have a beer in public then
What has Saudi Arabia (or any other country or religion) got to do with Utopia? Obviously we can't have any "beliefs" dictating how others should behave. The ONLY "commandment" should be "do no harm", other than that, people should be able to do anything they damn well please!
That's not how things work.
Correction: That's not how things work HERE; it IS how they ought to work in a Utopia, otherwise it wouldn't be a Utopia.
And this is for a fairly simple issue too..
Simply resolved too. If an activity causes no harm, it can't be prohibited...period. NOBODY would have the right to tell others how thgey should live. ALL rights would be respected. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/6/2009 8:46:39 PM |
A has the form y=mx+b
No it doesn't. That's the equation of a line on an x/y axis. You just said a human is equal to 3x+6. A human being is not a line on an x/y axis and a line on an x/y axis is not a human being.
Quiet right. I was trying to illustrate a point. the equation does have the form y=mx+b. Just imagine that y=mx+b is human DNA.
Every human has DNA. Every humans DNA is similar to all other human DNA and if it was not similar to human DNA then we couldn't classify human DNA as Human DNA.
Similarly every equation of the form y=mx+b has the form y=mx+b. If an equation with the form y=mx+b didn't have the form y=mx+b then there wouldn't be the slope intercept form y=mx+b.
Now the point is that there is human DNA. Every person that is a human has this form. Similarly every equation that is a line on a x/y cartesian plane has the form y=mx+b.
By this logic we can say that every human is a unique manifestation of the same thing (that thing being the human form) just like every line in a cartesian plane is a unique manifestion of the slope intercept form y=mx+b.
This does not destroy individuality as individuality is:
1. the particular character, or aggregate of qualities, that distinguishes one person or thing from others; sole and personal nature: a person of marked individuality.
Since its impossible for two identical twins sharing identical DNA to share absolutely equal experiences (since aggregate qualities are influenced by environment and experiences) then they must be individual and individuality must exist.
The point in line with this topic is that all humans are similar and all humans share the same form. As such there are things that all humans universally share. We all must eat, we all must sleep, we all must think, we all must speak...ect.
It's those similarities that all humans share that must be absolutely catered for in a Utopia.
a line is not the same thing as a human.
I know. Sometimes finding similarities in simple abstract things aids the understanding of complex things. For instance the sun is not a ball. However saying the sun is like a ball helps in understanding that the shape of the sun is curved and curved in a way that is like a ball. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/7/2009 7:28:45 AM |
Did the people really ask the government(s) to mismanage the economy for them?
Yes.
They ask for things to be mismanaged when they:
1. Insist on no tax increases even in the face of years of budget deficits and growing debt
2. Continue to opt for Interest-only loans
People ask for things to be mismanaged in an indirect fashion by routinely wanting to get something for nothing.
It strikes me that none of the elections ever did any good.
I disagree. I recall many instances where a new government comes into power on a strikingly different platform that is about 'house cleaning'. One such instance was The Mike Harris PC government that was elected in Ontario in the 1990s was one such instance. That guy said he was gonna balance things and improve efficiencies... and he did EXACTLY what he said he was gonna do... and people elected him for that platform and later vilified him for doing it when it hit home that you don't get something for nothing.
But it did bring about a lot of change for the better such as a much needed restructuring of the provinces hospitals before his reforms. Before this, there was one area in Toronto that you could walk past 5 different hospitals in 5 minutes... a legacy of the days when hospitals were private but became a redundant waste of money.
Administration is a thankless job. I experienced it 1st hand on a small scale as being a condo director for several years.
There will always be someone with some problem you're doing, even when you're doing "the right thing"... for a variety of reasons.
What has Saudi Arabia (or any other country or religion) got to do with Utopia?... Simply resolved too. If an activity causes no harm, it can't be prohibited...period. NOBODY would have the right to tell others how thgey should live. ALL rights would be respected.
It's an example (with alcohol) of how people often don't tolerate people with differing beliefs. If you want Utopia to become reality, it will be a problem (or something similar to it) that you will run it to. The hardcore anti-alcohol believers will say that merely having alcohol in the vicinity will cause harm... which I personally think is ludicrous... but just because I think it's ludicrous doesn't stop them from believing what they believe.
You would think the resolution is simple... but I'm telling you, you'd be surprised on how simple things can get really complicated... like having a beer in certain places.
And nobody will have the right to tell others how they should live? Well whether they have the right or not, many will do it anyway directly or indirectly (like through religion, for example)
Correction: That's not how things work HERE; it IS how they ought to work in a Utopia, otherwise it wouldn't be a Utopia.
Yeah but we're talking about morphing the society we have HERE into Utopia. The "Here" for right now and the "here" for the future Utopia are the same place with the same people... unless you engineer some Perfect People on a different planet. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/7/2009 7:48:11 AM |
Quiet right. I was trying to illustrate a point. the equation does have the form y=mx+b. Just imagine that y=mx+b is human DNA.
But it's still wrong because you're applying a two dimensional equation to a *three* dimensional problem.
DNA isn't a line... it's a string that has depth.
By this logic we can say that every human is a unique manifestation of the same thing
That statement is a contradiction. Are we talking about a manifestation of something *Unique* (which proves individuality isn't an illusion) or are we talking about a manifestation of the *same* thing?
A more accurate description would be "a unique manifestation of something similar, but NOT the same".
If there was total sameness in DNA, then DNA would be worthless as evidence in the legal system when it comes to identifying or ruling out perpetrators of a crime and identifying victims.
Sometimes finding similarities in simple abstract things aids the understanding of complex things.
If I had to pick an equation that represented DNA, I'd pick something that takes depth into account. I don't know what the most suitable equation would be since I'm not that proficient at mathematical equations... I know enough to get myself into trouble, but not enough to get myself out of trouble. | |
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