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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/7/2009 2:56:18 PM |
They ask for things to be mismanaged when they:
1. Insist on no tax increases even in the face of years of budget deficits and growing debt
2. Continue to opt for Interest-only loans
It strikes me that if people voted down the taxes, they would have expected cutbacks in services to keep the budget in line. Why wasn't the budget kept in line with what the people voted for?...Did they also vote to borrow money to keep the services going, or was that a fiscally irresponsible action of government (to garner votes?)
People ask for things to be mismanaged in an indirect fashion by routinely wanting to get something for nothing.
I'd say that people vote for the politicians who lie to them and "sell" them a bill of goods. Only later do they find the goods have been billed to the people (at an exhorbitant markup and after the crooked politicians take their cut of course)
Administration is a thankless job. I experienced it 1st hand on a small scale as being a condo director for several years.
You are right of course; you strike me as an honest man, so you would never make it in a profession run by crooks, like used car sales, law, or politics. Honest men make lousy crooks!
Yeah but we're talking about morphing the society we have HERE into Utopia.
When I have the time, I'll have to go back and re-read some of the more recent posts, but my recollection of the intention of this thread was to discuss the possibilities PRESUPPOSING the existence of a Utopian state.
Be that as it may, I think we could create a society of "Utopians" that could eventually grow to encompass the human race (or maybe not). A society is a group of people voluntarily working together for a common purpose. If part of that common purpose was to respect the rights of others, then anybody who would not, could not join that society. (Can't let anyone in the game if they don't promise to abide by the rules)
Such a society may grow, or it may get snuffed out by people who don't like it (like an existing government?), but in any event, the members of it wouldn't be stuffing their beliefs or rules down the throats of other members; if they did, they'd be kicked out of that society. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/7/2009 4:27:52 PM |
It strikes me that if people voted down the taxes, they would have expected cutbacks in services to keep the budget in line.
You would think that, eh? No... people want a *magical* solution. Even when you tell them "we need raise extra money to offer this service" people say "can't you just make the numbers work?". Or when you do cut, then all the people who benefited from the thing or service being cut freak out.
Hell I even see people do this with their own personal finances... 'Buy this sh1tload of furniture you don't need and you won't have to pay for a year!!!' People fall for that all the time.
I have a friend whose wife routinely runs up credit card debt. When they moved into a new place, the credit check revealed that she had $50,000 on high interest credit cards.
And you want to know the really bad news? There are many people like her and THEY VOTE TOO!!!
Why wasn't the budget kept in line with what the people voted for?...Did they also vote to borrow money to keep the services going, or was that a fiscally irresponsible action of government (to garner votes?)
Indirectly, yes. Just look at the bank and auto bail outs. If those weren't done, it would definitely have led to a much greater and more expensive problem in the long run. The financial crisis wasn't even caused by irresponsible government spending. It was brought on by a lack of regulation (deregulation) THAT PEOPLE ASKED FOR.
The government a society has is a loose reflection on that nation's people.
The people aren't perfect and thus, the government isn't gonna be perfect either.
I'd say that people vote for the politicians who lie to them and "sell" them a bill of goods.Only later do they find the goods have been billed to the people (at an exhorbitant markup and after the crooked politicians take their cut of course)
Later? More like never. There are many people who are 1diots who don't do their homework. Remember that Mike Harris guy I mentioned? His campaign was basically "I'm gonna cut taxes AND balance the books".
Now given that I'm a person who *thinks*, I knew that meant he was gonna do some MASSIVE spending cuts and there would be PAIN as a result. Because of this, I did NOT vote for him. But many voters did not do this simple math and DID vote for him... and there were massive cuts... and there was pain... and I have A LOT of respect for Mike Harris now because he was one of the Most Honest political leaders ever. He said what he was gonna do and he did it.
He did the right thing and in the end, he got punished for doing the right thing.
Politicians don't get punished for lying. They only get punished for:
1. Getting CAUGHT in a lie.
2. Being TOO HONEST.
You are right of course; you strike me as an honest man, so you would never make it in a profession run by crooks, like used car sales, law, or politics. Honest men make lousy crooks!
Being honest is also detrimental for dating too! Most people are chasing a fantasy that doesn't exist.
Be that as it may, I think we could create a society of "Utopians" that could eventually grow to encompass the human race (or maybe not).
And just so you understand... I'm actually in favour of this. Everything I've posted was for the purpose of making you and everyone aware of the problems that I absolutely know will be encountered. The secret to a successful society, utopia or otherwise, is balance. And achieving a perfect balance is HARD... really hard... like walking-on-a-tightrope-without-a-balancing-pole kind of hard.
Now I just thought of something... it would be wise to study other attempts at Utopian communities that bombed.
Here's one that I read up on that I found to be really interesting and was sad that it came to an end... but in reading up on it, it highlights some practical personality problems you can run into:
www.kerista.com
And you know, there might be a shortcut to achieving what you're looking for... what you're thinking of might already exist right now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_Oaks_Community
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kommune_Niederkaufungen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Wind_Community
And I personally know two people where were in this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Arche
And I read about this in the book Thy Neighbor's Wife by Gay Thalese:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneida_Colony
And here's a good list of communes... many of which are forming:
http://directory.ic.org/records/communes.php | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/7/2009 4:38:45 PM | I'm not sure what Utopia and taxes have any business being in the same sentence let alone thread...and have absolutely no business posting in a topic to which I have not a clue...but felt completely compelled to add that Utopia is a matter of mind, heart and soul...and has nothing to do with reality...unless you live in Disneyland with Mickey and Minnie Mouse...
ps...I only read the first and last post....so ...yeah... | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/7/2009 9:36:59 PM | I was gonna start my own society, called "The Brotherhood of Man" based on what John Lennon "Imagine"d. The premise would be simple. Society members would place themselves under the jurisdiction of unwritten natural law (1 commandment: Do no harm) and hold ALL their rights, with the agreement that they would strive to protect and defend those same rights for everyone else (those are the duties that come with rights).
I may yet start that society, but I see a lot of potential in another one that is pretty much as I'd envisioned mine. It is still in the formation process and I'd like to help them build it, so I'm joining it.
http://worldfreemansociety.org
I really believe that this society, or one very much like it will soon replace the corporate de facto (illegitimate) government now running Canada. I picture people leaving corporate Canada in droves to join a freer, more just society, where all men & women are self-governing brothers & sisters, equal before the law, working together for the common purpose of making the land a land to be proud of. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/8/2009 12:16:24 AM |
I was gonna start my own society, called "The Brotherhood of Man" based on what John Lennon "Imagine"d
Okay.......
I gotta ask, I can't resist (and since no one else has the bajonkas to ask it, I will) :
Dukk, you grew up on one of those 60's commune farms, smoked a lot of pot, had some trippy LSD visions, danced in a field of wild daisies every day at sunset, and your real name is Rainbow Soleil Zappa....... right ?
Hmm ? Hmm ?
Am I right ?
(it's okay, you're secret will be safe with me) | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/8/2009 12:57:57 AM | @ Muse
It wouldn't be much of a secret if I posted it here, now would it?
you grew up on one of those 60's commune farms
Nope! I could never picture life much more than a block or two from an all-nite Seven Eleven.
smoked a lot of pot
I pretty well quit by the time I was 16. (and I HATE that skunk smelling sh¡t they smoke today!)
had some trippy LSD visions
I lost two years of my life in near psychosis to that crap! (well, OK...it was probably an STP, DMT, LSD****ail mixed with other floor sweepings from the lab)
danced in a field of wild daisies every day at sunset
You left out drunk, naked and only in the warmer weather!
your real name is Rainbow Soleil Zappa
My favorite song when I was young was "Who Are the Brain Police?", but Captain Beefheart's "Trout Mask Replica" was my favorite album.
Actually, when I was young, I was kind of a fascist, politically speaking (sort of like a skinhead before there were skinheads) and I advocated nuclear war as a solution to the "useless eater problem". I used to tear down "Che" posters and pick fights with "commies"...I think I've mellowed over the years ... | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/8/2009 1:25:29 AM | Bah.... don't sweat it.
I'm guilty of all of the above. Well..... except for the commune farm thing and the relation to the Zappa family (even though that would have been a wild trip).
I don't remember most of the 80's. 
And might I add : bad decade for all things hair, clothes, movies.... bad bad bad. The only thing I remember is all of the hairspray I went through maintaining my oversized 'do', and the really bad clothes (except for my favourite pair of faded shredded jeans..... wonder what ever happened to those).
*sigh*
Alright alright already, I give up.... Out of love for my fellow brothers and sisters of trippy decades long past : I'll allow you your crazy Lennon-Utopian-Society dream. And I won't even laugh.
*sigh*
(Does my charity work never stop ?!)
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/8/2009 8:08:27 AM |
I don't remember most of the 80's.
I did the time warp thing and stayed in 1969. That was my Utopian age...It has to be; I don't remember a damn thing! I don't remember the 70's, 80's or 90's either, but that was only because they were boring & I didn't pay attention to them. Senility was setting in after about 2000, so I don't remember much before this morning....?...What were we talking about? 
Ahh...To hell with it...I just hope I had enough presence of mind to stock the fridge with cold beer....I need my breakfast...  | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/8/2009 11:47:01 AM | Funny, even though I was a child of the 80's, my music tastes were from the 60's and 70's. I think I was a hippie by heart.
So while my friends were listening to crap like Boy George and one-hit wonders, wearing their pastel coloured stirrup pants with the matching pastel belt and oversized earrings..... I was wearing my shredded jeans and t-shirts and listening to the likes of Led Zepplin, ACDC, Janis Joplin, Frank Zappa, Eagles, Simon and Garfunkel, etc etc...... They all thought I was a weird pussycat and used to laugh at me all the time.
But my music became classics, while theirs, um...... disappeared into the abyss ?
Now my tastes are all over the place. From ACDC, to Bach, to Frank Sinatra, to Stevie Ray Vaughn, to Tom Petty, to Van Morrison. Go figure.
I don't suppose your utopia could have classic music piped through the streets.....?
Hmm, that's one way to keep the masses all calm and sedated like..... Frank and Dean crooning whilst we're purchasing our organically grown hemp shirts..... Led Zepplin's Thank You blasting in the background whilst we're test driving a new hybrid air-driven mini coupe...... John Lennon persuading people to 'imagine' whilst they're plucking the weeds out of their naturally fertilized veggie gardens......
I can picture it all now. | |
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| Utopia and self-actualization...an actualized state?
Posted: 10/8/2009 1:38:46 PM |
I don't remember most of the 80's.
And might I add : bad decade for all things hair, clothes, movies.... bad bad bad.
It wasn't all bad... there was lots of good such as:
-The movies The Princess Bride, Risky Business, ET, Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Breakfast club, Moonstruck, The Shining, A Fish Called Wanda, Sixteen Candles, Ghostbusters, Coming to America ("The Royal P*nis is cleaned") , Aliens and many others
-The music was good too... Madonna, Depeche Mode, Duran Duran, Some Elton John, some Billy Joel, Billy Idol, Twisted Sister, U2, Van Halen, Def Leopard, Miami Sound Machine, INXS and a bunch more.
-The birth of *good* music videos. Before the 1980s, music videos were mostly just recordings of the band playing music from different angles.
-Bellbottom pants went out of style
-The WWW got invented
-The IBM PC got invented
-The Mac got invented
-Fuel Injection became common on cars. Before that, it was common to have cars stalling all the time. For example... my Dad's 1972 Ford LTD... It would take 5-10 tries to get it started initially. Then he'd run it for a bit, put in in reverse and it would stall... and we'd roll down the driveway in silence. Then at the bottom of the driveway, another two or three more tries, then he'd put it in drive, and sometimes we'd be on our way, other times it would stall one more time, restart, and THEN we'd be on our way. And I witnessed this behaviour on a variety of vehicles... from one neighbours Chevy pickup, to another neighbour's Pontiac Ventura, to another neighbours Pontiac Lemans, to a friend's dad's "Opel Kaddett by Buick"...
-Japanese cars started to offer the best of both worlds... mechanically reliable, good on gas AND they stopped rusting to pieces within 3 years.
-music on Compact Disks became available
-FM radio became popular
-Laptop computers, as we know them today, got invented (Compaq)
So there were TONS of great things from the 1980s. | |
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