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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 7:20:21 AM | Quote: "In my eyes, support orders are punitive."
pu·ni·tive (pyōō'nĭ-tĭv)
adj. Inflicting or aiming to inflict punishment; punishing
Reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/punitive
So you are basically saying that ordering someone to pay child support is a means of punishment???? How ignorant you sound!!!! Child support is used to help raise a child that you produce. That is far from punishment, it's called stepping up to the plate and taking care of your responsibilities. It's called feeding and clothing your children. So in your eyes, making a NCP help feed their child is a means of punishing them?
Quote: "So then shouldn't they be required to prove the basic needs of the child are/were not being met? I don't recall anything in the story referring to such conditions. What I read stated that she was thrown in jail for owing over $29,000. I believe $29,000 will far exceed any basic needs those children have at this very moment in time, and would seriously limit her ability to provide any basic needs those children would have in her own home were she to be forced to pay it all immediately."
The $29,000 isn't JUST for neglecting the needs of her children for "this very moment in time". It's for her neglecting the needs of her children over a period of years. If a CP neglected the needs of the children for years, where do you think the CP and the chilren would be? The kids would be in foster care (after first going to the NCP, who already believes it's okay not to meet their needs, then being taken by social services and put in foster homes) and the CP would be locked up for criminal neglect. THEN the NCP would also be locked up for the same thing. However, good CP's don't neglect the children. They find a way to make sure that the kids have what they need. While deadbeat NCP sit back and make excuses why they shouldn't have to help, support their kids. Then they whine and say the government should have to support their kids for them.
Quote"If it's about the children, then wouldn't it make more sense to take the money the government is wasting on locking her up in jail and actually providing that to the children? Instead of spending countless thousands of dollars to house this woman in prison for however long she'll be there, why didn't they just take that money and pay her arrears so that the children (you know, the people who all this tomfoolery is supposed to be helping) could have their "basic needs" met? Nope! We'll throw that money away because somewhere out there is a huge group of malicious people who will be so friggin happy that someone got what was coming to them. Pure genius! "
If the government started handing out money to support non-paying NCP's children, and the NCP was never held accountable for his/her actions of not paying.....tell me...please...how many NCP's would be supporting their kids? They can A. pay and have less money in their pocket, not have to worry about any reprecussions, and go on living their life as normal, and the kids will be taken care of (by NCP and CP). Or B. Not pay support, have more money in their pockets, not have to worry about reprecussions, the kids are taken care of (by CP and government money), and go about living their life better than normal. Which option do you think a NCP would choose Mr. Obvious (alias: That Guy Him)? Sorry, but the government can't afford and shouldn't have to support a NCP's child, or all NCP's children . However, they can punish the NCP in hopes that they will learn responsibility, and step up and stop neglecting their kids. I think it is a lot wiser to house them in lock up for 6 months and take the chance that they willl support their kids when they get out, than to let them go free and they (the government) just pay the NCP's share of child support for 18 years. | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 7:57:25 AM | Quote: "There is no reason unless you're looking for trouble."
Looking for trouble???? Because a parent wants the other parent to help meet the needs of THEIR children, they are looking for trouble? Raising kids isn't cheap- and should not be the sole responsibiity of the CP. Yes, we are happy to have our kids. But when you get no help from the NCP, it makes it hard for both the CP and the children. Money that the CP is using to cover the NCP's portion leaves them strapped. Then they have to deny the kids simple little things, like school dances (can't afford the admission), sports, birthday presents. If the NCP would pay their portion, then the money that the CP has been using to cover the NCPs share can be used for these "extra's". (No...the NCP paying support isn't paying for extra's- it's paying their share of necessities. It's the CPs money paying for the extras.)
Quote: " I dont want my tax dollars to pay for putting dead beat parents in jail. Some custodial parents want them in jail but I dont want my tax money used to pay for thier petty vindictiveness. I think the custodial parent gets what they deserve for being stupid enough to make a baby with a trashy person. "
Petty vindictiveness? Expecting someone to be held accountable for their actions (or lack of) is being vindictive? I guess I must be a vindictive little bit*h then- because I expect everyone to act responsibly or be held accountable. People who break the law (including those who ignore court order support) should be held accountable. "The custodial......get what they deserve....for making a baby with a trashy person"??? It's not the custodial getting what they deserve. It's the kids doing without, not getting what they deserve (support from both parents). And last time I checked, most of us can't see into the future to predict that the other parent is going to be a deadbeat when it comes to seperating and paying support for their child(ren). The majority of the time, the NCP is just as normal as the CP and any other person they know. I'm sure you and possibly others do tend to lay down with "neglectful/disinterested/loser/drunk/druggie/insane/abusive/" people and make babies, but the majority of us don't do so knowingly. So most of us don't fit into the same profile as you....sorry. | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 12:24:07 PM | myladyshyanne & mddog - amen.
Know I am going to incur the "holier than all" wrath from spider, but...
So, from what I am understanding from spider and another poster, the deadbeat NCP should be rewarded for picking a decent person to have a baby with and those of us who did not should take on all of their slack.
Why is there absolutely no mention that a deadbeat puts him/herself in jail? They know full well they slept with someone and that may produce a baby. They also know full well there are laws that mandate paying child support. So they are in no part a party to being put in jail? Please. Have the state pay court costs and jail fees to CP instead of persuing the deadbeat? And how would one decide which deadbeats should get off scott free? Please do tell.
Your energies are browbeating good parents here who do the right thing and frankly end up getting the losing end because of it. We work our butts off and get grief from the likes of you all. If you think deadbeats are getting a raw deal, please go change the laws, take some kids in that need help, help out a NCP who's really struggling or form an organization to help them. | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 12:58:01 PM | | OK spider ,let me paint you a picture so You can understand what Your talking about,we did think things thruogh (her and I ) we planned to have children, along with the 2 boys she already had(by the way they still come over and call me DAD)as far as a sex partner, this is a person I knew since jr. high school,yes we had lots and lots of sex as you would call it ,but we called it love ! we owned a home ,2 cars all that wonderful stuff that an average family could want,does it sound like things were planned with a sex partner to you spider, there is no drama sweety ! just whats right and wrong, people like you like to add to things, make things up so they feel good about their own crap.maybe you were just a sex partner,kinda sound like you have some expertice. as far as prison reform goes,what your talking about is your run of the mill convict, you know spider, the type of people that make a career out of robbing stores and things like that,not average people who work for a living and are pissed they didnt get custody of their kids.or they just dont feel like paying cause they want that boat or new car,Those are the people that if they spent just a week in jail would have the crap scared out of them and they would never pull that again. | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 1:34:47 PM | I guess everyone could go to a different site and stop asking the same questions every week. This is a dating site. Not a single parent pity help site.
Tons of just for parent sites out there. If you are looking for advice from experts then hey you get what you pay for.
Throw them in jail for a week and maybe that will scare them enough to just disappear alltogether.
Can you see how bitter you people are? The constant need to feel justified must take something away from how you interact with your kids. But do not come here and say they broke the law they must pay when you may not follow all the laws yourself.
Maybe it is best you feel this way maybe your kids will take more care or you could let it go and just make the best of a bad situation.
See the trouble with this punitive system is that they tend not to differentiate the real deadbeats who just won;t pay and lump in the ones who can't.
Because of this grouping by the time the system sees that it is in many cases too late and they will never get caught up.
This will never make them be a productive part of the kids life.
You know if money is tight tell your kids to get a partime job to pay for the extras. Paper route, mow lawns etc. | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 2:09:16 PM | | your right spider,but you stepped into a forum of parents that are having a hard time making a good life for their children on their own,I'm lucky in that respect ,I dont need child support or welfare,but when you have people that try to raise kids on alomst nill, and get no help from theNCP, yes it does become bitter,because those are the same people that will buy themselves that new outfit or car,bla bla bla while their child they helped bring into this world goes without, NICE so I guess its sobodyelse' fault right spider,forget about the fact ,that when you do go to court,the court does go through your finacial statements, and determines what you can afford in child support,they never say ,OK you make 500.00 a week , pay 400.00,its always dealt with what you can afford,what you can live with,these people just choose not to pay! wether it 50 . dollars a week or 400. hundred a week. Seems like you just dont like being wrong !I would go without ,before I would let my kids go without, you just seem to think its ok to let other people deal with these deadbeats problems. Thats real good, teach the kids you dont have to be responseable for your actions .Like I said before,You dont feed your dog ,you go to jail! but if you dont feed your kid,Oh well, let someonelse do it .Spider ,let me ask you a question ,Do you eat paint chips or something ? whats wrong with you? | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 2:25:39 PM | | Sorry ,but atleast spider had real thought ! If you got friemds like that?I hope you dont have kids ! OH MAN!! | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 2:44:17 PM | mdddog, I am one on the other side.
When the judges gavel hit the desk I was automatically in the hole three grand.
Seems all the money I gave her without a receipt during the separation magically was forgotten about. The judge also saw fit to set my payments at nearly douvle what they should have been based on my wage. Add an extra 100 to pay towards the arrears and my temp job wage was forcing decisions on paying or eating.
My ex was adamant about me changing my job to work hours that were more 9 to 5 ( was in restaurant mgmt) not as easy as people would think and to move up takes time.
So things got out of hand and like I said about the system that takes time to see the difference, they deemed it neccesary to further enhance my ability to earn a living by suspending my license. I had just managed to finally get a job that would actually match the rate but had to quit because the controller of that business wasn't keen on the extra work involved to take the payments from my earnings.
I gave her everything in the divorce, I got a chair , my clothes and a computer.
She makes great money, lives with her parents and here is the best part, I got no overnights or even a week in the summer because my environment did not meet with the judges taste and without representation the fact that many members of my family smoke cigarettes I could not provide a safe clean environment.
So I am not coming off from my pulpit on high and because the system is the way it is it really hasn't done much for my disposition but she knew this going in and it goes back to what I said in other posts, there are signs or red flags.
Now I am going through the your not paying they're not home routine.
Have not seen my boy in a long while and as time goes by I am feeling more and more distant and because it was never my choice to separate so soon after he was born have come to realize that I will never be a part of his life.
So yeah it irks me a bit when I hear custodial parents bytch about how tough it is to live with their kids, what a burden that must be. | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 2:52:57 PM | My ex owes more than the amount in the post too. He hasn't seen the kids since 2002 either - his choice, he "lost my number"........good one, eh? Well he's been put in jail for short stints for not paying but the state COULD charge him with a felony.
I see many sides to this. In jail he would have NO fun, NO freedom and wouldn't be able to get anyone pregnant and owe those kids money too. Since the kids don't get to see him anyway it wouldn't affect them.
I agree though, jail isn't going to make them pay, it probably just builds hatred toward me, since he feels as though I'm somehow putting the dogs on him. And since I left him he's always blamed me for all the shortcomings in his life.
It's hilarious to me that someone can't afford $335/month to support two children. Where would they be if I was as worthless as he is? Sheesh! | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 2:58:16 PM | | I think its justified...... Its time females pay the same consequences that men do. Its all about equality right? | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 2:58:46 PM | | I couldn't have said it better no matter how hard I tried. Your points are all extremely valid, I LOVE the analogy about feeding your dog and jail. For God's sake, we require pet owners to be more responsible than parents!!!! | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 3:02:07 PM | | Spider ,thats the beautiful thing about courts,you can file a complaint to ! if your supossed to have a visit ,the child is supossed to be there, you also file for an ajustment on your support ,due to your income,and for god sake ,if what your saying is true about her ! get a new attorney !! If she makes good money and lives with her mom ?The judge would take that into consideration !And the whole point about this thread, is the fact that a woman went to jail for nonpayment .Spider ,I was on the paying side for a bit,then she pulled the crap your talking about, I took custody of my boys,because it was in the best interest of the children back in 01, dude,get a new attorney. your son is worth it! | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 6:18:29 PM | Quote: "My ex owes more than the amount in the post too. He hasn't seen the kids since 2002 either - his choice, he "lost my number"........good one, eh? Well he's been put in jail for short stints for not paying but the state COULD charge him with a felony. "
My oldest sons dad may be having a felony warrant issued for him. The FOC was sending the paperwork to the prosecutors, I'll know shortly. I don't feel one bit sorry for him. He is ordered to pay a small amount each week (he could pick up pop cans to pay it), and still refuses (Yes,He works). However, he had the money to buy 5 MP4 players and take a 2 week vacation this month. Meanwhile, I keep my fingers crossed and pray real hard that I can buy my kids a few outfits for school. | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/20/2009 10:48:43 PM |
So you are basically saying that ordering someone to pay child support is a means of punishment????
Child support was created as a means of punishment. People couldn't be punished for not loving their children, but money is a measurable commodity that made it easier for the courts to cater to these kinds of notions:
However, they can punish the NCP in hopes that they will learn responsibility, and step up and stop neglecting their kids.
Child support is used to help raise a child that you produce.
Child support is a set amount of money that an NCP hands over to a CP. Certain jurisdictions have measures in place that are intended to ensure that it is used in the manner which you have described, but in most cases it is just an exchange of money.
If the government started handing out money to support non-paying NCP's children, and the NCP was never held accountable for his/her actions of not paying.....tell me...please...how many NCP's would be supporting their kids?
Tell me...please...how many NCP's start supporting their kids after they've been "held accountable" by means of having their licences revoked or being thrown in jail? If I were a gambler, I'd put my money on >20%. It doesn't look like probation did anything to change the behaviour of the mother in this case. Do you expect her to suddenly start paying once she's released? | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/21/2009 12:16:01 AM |
Child support was created as a means of punishment. People couldn't be punished for not loving their children, but money is a measurable commodity that made it easier for the courts to cater to these kinds of notions
Wow. I think, out of the many, many baseless opinions I have read all across the internet, this has to win the prize for being the ultimate, most egocentric and negative way to look at life. Just wow. You are joking, right? You really believe this? | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/21/2009 5:31:18 AM | Why do you figure cs, how can you legislate goodness or responsibility in people.
Your a child shrink you mknow that natural instincts are denied to conform with societal norms are they not? So how can you blame a person for doing something or not doing something that is or isn't natural to them.
When we meet a partner we can HOPE they will want the same things but we shouldn't really be too shocked if they do not connect with a child. Or when faced with that reality do not wish to be a parent.
So how can you legislate that? We are not talking about inatimate object we are dealing with emotional commitement and you cannot force someone to love you or a child through laws.
If that is the case then we should ( as mentioned in a different thread - sex forum ) legislate the very act of sex for then you would have a basis for argument that there was intent to procreate and would force people to be held accountable long before the possible arrival of children.
Like I have stated there signs or red flags to the possible inclinations of people.
You should know this, for if you are as good as you think you are there are many signs from children that can be easily found through talking to them or there actions or drawings.
I also am of the opinion that if we give trust too easily, we are likely to ignore these signs or advice given from those who see them.
So for all of that, because we fail to really see the person that we wish to procreate with or just have intimate realations with that somehow you and others have arrived at letting the law make up for our lack of diligence?
If because I did right and they didn't they should pay somehow? Put them in jail.
Is that what we have become?
Someone has told me I should get a better lawyer or go to legal aid. I disagree on the basis of failing to see those signs myself and am hoping that she may come to realize perhaps she shoold have too. Yes I run the risk of forever losing any kind of relationship with my son and I will find a way to contribute to his life be it financially if that is all I get but I see no upside to forcing her to allow time with my son.
Any person with knowledge of conflict resolution would know an olive branch of peace is better than a gun. To set out to ruin a persons life will never bring people around and only make things worse.
We need to focus on fixing this problem beforehan instead of trying to create a better bandaid for a wound that keeps bleeding when we cut ourselves.
on a different thought, babies are free are they not it is only after that they become an expense do they not?
If you wish to really to end the madness we have created instead of re instilling a workable sense of right and wrong blended with resonsibility and morality then have potential parents take out or apply for a mortgage to have children. If we have reduced parenthood down to a dollar amount then this seems to me be the only solution. Adoptive parents do it why can't regular folks do it too? | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/21/2009 5:34:21 AM |
I think, out of the many, many baseless opinions I have read all across the internet, this has to win the prize for being the ultimate, most egocentric and negative way to look at life.
How is it a negative outlook on life? The very person who questioned how child support is punitive went on in the exact same post to provide an example of exactly that. Read again:
they can punish the NCP in hopes that they will learn responsibility
That's the basis of child support. "One way or another, we will make you pay!" You want negative, how about you look at how many children's lives have been ruined and parental relaionships fractured over the application of child support. | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/21/2009 6:15:40 AM | Spider43, there are a lot of very good points in your above post, and I don't disagree with the principle of it. I am all for conflict resolution and for a difficult peace is better than a winning war, in my opinion.
My point however, were that the law is currently trying to help the children, not punish the parent. To see the custody amount as an intent to punish the parent who isn't facing his responsibilities is to fail to see things through an egocentric prism. It's not about the parent! And I am the first one to claim, over and over on these forums, that punishments never helped anyone learn any responsibilities. Punishment don't teach. But it's not about removing something from a parent, it's about helping the child get food. In Canada, in french, the custody amount is actually called "pension alimentaire" (food pension). It's about attempting to alleviate the economical impact a separation will have on a child's life by providing the CP with enough money for diapers, baby food, toys, formula, cloths to be renewed so fast because of child growth, and so on. If you have had a baby before, you know one single trip to the drugstore for your child will easily cost over a hundred. A typical NCP custody ranges from 300 to 600$ a month, and frankly, that's barely half the cost for the bare necessities of caring for a newborn, at least if you are trying to do it properly. Hence the attempt at re-balancing revenues when parents separate, so that the CP can continue paying for the child's expenses at the approximate same level as before.
Are some CP abusing this amount? Yes, some do. Should the court ask for receipt to insure all the CP amount is spent on baby stuff, food and child care? Yes, even though not many states have these laws and they are difficult to verify and enforce. Are some NCP feeling terrible because this amount was imposed on them while they never wanted to be a parent? Yes, certainly. But I repeat, the point is not to punish anybody. It may not be fair on the NCP, but it would be even less fair on the helpless baby NOT to do this.
You can't legislate goodness or responsibility in people. But you can legislate to help the only innocent person who shouldn't be impacted by that lack of goodness or responsibility of the others. | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/21/2009 6:32:50 AM | Quote: "Tell me...please...how many NCP's start supporting their kids after they've been "held accountable" by means of having their licences revoked or being thrown in jail? If I were a gambler, I'd put my money on >20%. It doesn't look like probation did anything to change the behaviour of the mother in this case. Do you expect her to suddenly start paying once she's released?"
Why would probation help? She is still free to run around, live her life, and do her thing. Probation is just a slap on the hand. It's basically just a warning saying "support your kids or you will be sent to jail" . Jail time is more adequate, because it gives the NCP time to think about things. Then they aren't free to do what ever they please. They are actually being held accountable. In my earlier reference of the situation of children being sent to their room for not picking up their toys, I am sure the parents start out with a warning of "pick up your toys or else you will go to your room for time out". Probation is similar to that "support your kids, or the next step is jail". Most kids don't listen the first or second time the warning is given- much like the NCP doesn't listen (or care) when the first couple warnings (probation) are given. However, once they spend time in "time out"....the chances are a lot more likely that they will cooperate. If the "time out" doesn't work the first time, simply repeat. Children (NCPs) will learn from consistancy.
Quote: "Child support was created as a means of punishment. People couldn't be punished for not loving their children, but money is a measurable commodity that made it easier for the courts to cater to these kinds of notions:
What have you been smoking? Please tell me your really not that ignorant. CHild support is not a punishent. And you are wrong. I DID NOT say in my earlier post that support was punishment. I said if you dont be responsible and pay your support, you need/will be punished. Your theory that it is punishment came out of your head, not mine. My theory is that support is the NCP being responsible. It is the NCP helping to support their child(ren), helping to supply their children with basic necessities to survive. That is far from punishment. Jail time if they don't support them is punishment. However that is a choice that the NCP makes- no one makes that choice for them. I mean really, if you believe that child support is punishment, then all parents who support their kids, CPs, NCPs, and parents who are not seperated- all living and supporting their kids, must be being punished also....for having kids...is that really your take on things? Responsible people are just being punished?
Quote: "but in most cases it is just an exchange of money."
You have brown eyes, don't you? You sure have bizzar ideologies. | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/21/2009 6:48:01 AM | Please dumb this down for me.
Why would a father who:
Was all for having children before they were conceived
Was in love with the woman with whom he had the children at the time of their conception
Planned the children in question
Loves the children
Why would this person object to paying child support? | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/21/2009 7:02:32 AM | Quote: "Most people I know that have been in jail were scared at first but then they found out it wasn't so bad--3 hots and a cot, not having to get up in the morning and go to a job they hate, they came out desensitized to it. If you told them they would have to go back to jail for a week they would be like "oh well whatever......" Prison time doesn't reform anyone it's just supposed to be used to keep dangerous people off the street. What if your ex goes to the pen and befriends some real nasty hard core violent inmates who have contacts on the outside who would put a bullet in your head for a couple thousand dollars? A middle class person sent to prison has money and resources those lowlife inmates desperatly want and would do anything to get.
If someone sends an ex to jail for not paying child support they are really looking for trouble. Now your pissed off ex will be spending all thier time with hardened criminals and they will be b*tching about you to them constantly. I bet you anything one of them would gladly direct your ex to some of thier low life friends on the outside who would do any nasty diabolical thing your ex wanted them to do to you for some $$$$."
First off, Cp's don't "send" their ex's to jail. The ex chooses that road by being irresponsible. And the courts and prosecutor decide whether or not to send them there. Stop blaming the RESPONSIBLE parent for the IRRESPONSIBLE parents actions. All non paying NCP's do is validate that the judge and FOC made the right choice in deciding who got custody.
P.S. Hardened criminals are generally in prison- not jail. And the jail/prison records and monitors communications between inmates and people who are not inmates, so having a hit out on a CP is very highly unlikely. Wow, you sure have an active imagination though. My question is : How many people do you know that have been in jail or prison? Maybe you shouldn't be hanging around that kind of people....I mean, after all, your a high school coach aren't you? Not only that, but to put in your profile that you are looking for a man with a big di*k?????? Talk about people not being selective when it comes to their partner!!!
I'm sure the school would find your profile inappropriate. | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/21/2009 1:01:05 PM | | Ok, so i'm glad there are other people who can see what this person is writing,she is a coach in a high school ! so she is going to influence the kids of N.Y. , what the hell!?I guess you really dont get a background check inN.Y. when you work for the school system there. KINDA SCARY !!!!! | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/21/2009 1:33:02 PM | I say toss all these deadbeat parents on a desert island (after neutering them) Then toss all the juvinile delinquents they and their like have bred there with them, let them duke it out!
Survival of the fitess! | |
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| Mom Jailed over child support
Posted: 8/22/2009 10:40:16 AM |
But you can legislate to help the only innocent person who shouldn't be impacted by that lack of goodness or responsibility of the others.
No, I'm afraid you can't. In my experience in life, some of the worst things I've ever seen happen were followed by the words, "But I was only trying to help." Children are going to be impacted no matter what legislation exists. Child support is not the answer in every situation, yet we make every effort to apply it to all. Some children are (or would be) better off if we kept our noses out of their business.
Please dumb this down for me.
Why would a father who:
Was all for having children before they were conceived
Was in love with the woman with whom he had the children at the time of their conception
Planned the children in question
Loves the children
Why would this person object to paying child support?
For the same reason a mother in the same position suddenly chooses to take the children away from their father to get child support. A marriage dissolution is tough enough to deal with as it is. Compound that with the adversial conditions created by family law (particularly the manipulation tactics of lawyers taking advantage of people in ways a psychologist would be thrown in jail for were they to conduct themselves in a similar manner). It not only challenges the best of us, but breaks the weakest and utterly destroys them. | |
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