| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/23/2009 9:23:11 AM |
And in the majority of cases it HAS been paid from "our coffers" or those of our ancestors...think about it!
How do you work that out?? - I would say that in the majority of cases it has been earned by enterprising people (be it ancestors or not) who elected not to sit on their ass
Wealthy people pay high taxes so they contribute just by the being in the position they are in, they are not a drain on coffers | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/23/2009 9:38:54 AM | I would say that in the majority of cases it has been earned by enterprising people
I would say that in the majority of cases it hasn't.
enterprising people (be it ancestors or not)
When we're talking "ancestors", in many cases they robbed our ancestors of land...very enterprising! And do you think the current "nouveau riche" got there through being enterprising? Some have, yes. Many more (bankers are just one example) should really be in prisons, not mansions!
And besides, I don't really think it's possible to "earn" millions. Do you think Richard Branson (for example) has "earnt" his billions, do you think that footballers "earn" £100k+ per week?
Many wealthy people don't pay hardly ANY tax, let alone high taxes. And yes, they are a "drain on coffers"...everybody elses!! | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/23/2009 9:43:36 AM |
Wealthy people pay high taxes so they contribute just by the being in the position they are in, they are not a drain on coffers
MP's claiming their toilet seats on expenses are a drain on coffers. Perhaps if some better decisions had been made by people in power we wouldn't be in the middle of a recession and have unemployment figures rising week on week.
When you go to sign on and the adviser says to you, there are hardly any jobs on the job points, that says it all. | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:41:39 AM | I'm not going to defend MP's they are a shambles.
And yes you do pay higher tax rate if you are higher paid(40%), and you are not entitled to tax credits etc. that the lower paid can claim.
I'm talking about entrepreneurs like Branson, he made his fortune by enterprise, initiative, drive, hard work and guts.
Everyone who is able minded\bodied in this country has the opportunity, whether they take it or not is down to personal choice.
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:54:01 AM |
I'm a so-called capitalist (pig if you like). I believe effort = results. You wont change my mind
I wouldn't dream of trying to change anyone's mind. I can only speak for my own circumstances and being out of work right now is not easy because every single job you go for, there are hundreds of other people chasing it.
So you can make all the effort you like, whether you get hired is at the moment pot luck. So unless anyone out there has a magic wand, I'd be grateful if people can appreciate that there are lots of people out there trying to get work and failing not for the want of trying.
A relative of mine has just got a part time job. He's been unemployed a year, he's a graduate with work experience and has been applying for every basic admin job out there. He got one with the civil service but there was no job there at the end, he was put on a waiting list for 12 months. He now has a part time job in a gym.
I wouldn't like to estimate how many vacancies he's applied for and been rejected for over the last year. | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/23/2009 11:38:50 AM | I'm not a job snob but the bottom line is I couldn't take a job for minimum wage to keep me busy as it wouldn't cover the rent. I've always worked, even doing paper and milk rounds as a kid to get money for booze and cigarettes. 
The other issue would be working for someone like McDonalds for a pittance knowing that they're raking the profits in on the back of poor wages. I wouldn't aid them in their quest out of principle.
Edit: The rich didn't get there by 'hard work'. You can only reach unimaginable wealth by being extraordinarily talented or by exploiting labour. | |
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JTFN
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Joined: 12/30/2008
Msg: 83 | |
| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/23/2009 6:34:08 PM | Yes there is a lot of competition for any employment right now.
I noticed a BBC advert this evening by Alan Sugar. He was critical of the general public thinking that the country owed them a living / a job. I couldn’t help thinking how wrong he was to say that. He now also works in a government position as Enterprise Tsar for Labour..
I’ve got news for him, the government of the day (any government) are in power to look after the society it rules over. His job and the governments is to assist the public / country to do well.
I am going to find it very interesting to see just what he thinks his style of working can do for this country..
Mind you the election is coming soon- he may get let off | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 12:45:14 AM |
Mind you the election is coming soon- he may get let off
Yes, come the revolution this country is going to be very different for a few years.
And are we out of recession or not?? | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 2:07:05 AM | I noticed a BBC advert this evening by Alan Sugar. He was critical of the general public thinking that the country owed them a living / a job.
Typical Tory. No compassion for the negative effects that the system he supports and enriches him has on ordinary people when the markets stumble. All the excess wealth continues to get filtered into the pockets of the owners of the means of production and their City counterparts and it's the people who actually do the work who suffer and are left going cap in hand to the state for a pittance as increased demand for jobs drives down the wages through 'pay freezes'. First up against the wall. | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 2:14:11 AM | | Pfftf I would have no choice. Due to my financial commitments, I would have no other option but to find several poorly paid jobs to match the wages I am on now and no it wouldnt bother me what I did. Unemployment is not an option for me...£45 pound a week as if... | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 3:18:21 AM | it's the people who actually do the work who suffer and are left going cap in hand to the state for a pittance as increased demand for jobs drives down the wages through 'pay freezes'. First up against the wall.
What a commie, down-trodden, inverted snobbery statement. Do you really believe that bosses don't work, that they get paid to sit on asses and do nothing!
If this was the case then anybody could do it so how come you are not one of these so called fat-cats? - A matter of choice maybe or capability! or are you just one of these people who wants no responsibility and expects others to feed you!
Alan Sugar is not talking about unfortunate people who find themselves out of a job through the recession - he's talking about people with your attitude, and the underachievers, the lazy, and peeps who think the world owes them a living.
Well I got news for you- it doesn't, no mater how much  you do about the people who have worked and toiled to consolidate and secure their own position.
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 3:26:51 AM | What a commie, down-trodden, inverted snobbery statement. Do you really believe that bosses don't work, that they get paid to sit on asses and do nothing!
Do you believe that the aristocracy acrued their wealth by working their fingers to the bone out in the fields? Oh dear!
If this was the case then anybody could do it so how come you are not one of these so called fat-cats? - A matter of choice maybe or capability! or are you just one of these people who wants no responsibility and expects others to feed you!
I don't know why you're suddenly making this about me but I have a job thanks and I don't rely on exploiting labour markets in order to give me a leg up in life unlike the very people you seem so desperate to defend.
Alan Sugar is not talking about unfortunate people who find themselves out of a job through the recession - he's talking about people with your attitude, and the underachievers, the lazy, and peeps who think the world owes them a living.
His statement of "The country doesn't owe you a job" can only be construed as being directed at those struggling to find work due to the recession. It couldn't be aimed at the intentionally unemployed as their position of willful unemployment disqualifies them from the feeling of being "owed a job" by the very nature of them not wanting to work.
Well I got news for you- it doesn't, no mater how much you are about the people who have worked and toiled to consolidate and secure their own position.
The whole point of becoming a boss is to get paid more for doing less work. Everybody knows this it's junior-school stuff. | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 3:29:16 AM | The whole point of becoming a boss is to get paid more for doing less work. Everybody knows this it's junior-school stuff.
Ok say you're right - then why dont we all just become Bosses, problem solved!!
I made corrections to my reference to you
Pity we cant continue this convo - the forum wont allow more posts by me on this thread yet | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 3:32:02 AM | Well Im lucky enough to work and I love my job. However a friend of mine was made redundant a few months ago - she is a secretary. She lives with her b/f but has her own house rented out - she could barely pay the mortgage on that when she was working! So recently M&S advertised for jobs for the Xmas period and we suggested to her that she should go and apply as she worked in retail before she became a secretary.. Her response 'Oh I would rather hang on for a clerical job'.
Now if that was me I would have been first in the queue at M&S. No one is hiring clerical staff at the moment and the job would have done her over the Xmas period! Now her b/f has just been made redundant so they are struggling even more now! Some people just amaze me. | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 4:21:33 AM | Ok say you're right - then why dont we all just become Bosses, problem solved!!
Or why don't we all just become workers? As it stands, a worker has to be MORE productive in order to pay the bosses wages - or 'shareholders' as they like to call themselves nowadays. I'm not talking specifically about middle managers here at this juncture or even directors, but the people who own the means of production and profit handsomely off the back of other people's labour, INCLUDING directors and middle managers who are primarily used to police the workforce and administrate the company to the benefit of the wealthy. Of course what I am proposing is a form of Communism and we'll run through all the various arguments of how it doesn't work from a wealthy man's point of view and how I'll argue back that it is more beneficial to the many which is a much more humane system... I suppose the differnce between the two is Capitalism makes wealth and less work for the few while with Communism the opposite is true. Either way, it cannot be argued that the present system 'works' with so many unintentionally unemployed and people unable to get a footing on the housing ladder to merely have somewhere to live due to unnaturally inflated property prices.
Pity we cant continue this convo - the forum wont allow more posts by me on this thread yet
You overcome that rule by making a substantial post, it is in place, i believe, to stop relentless spamming of posts containing less than a sentence. | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 4:28:17 AM | | Any job? it would depend how desperate I was. I don't think I'd make a very good bin man for instance but I've been known to do cleaning work and bar work to top up my meagre salary. | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 4:42:51 AM |
Alan Sugar is not talking about unfortunate people who find themselves out of a job through the recession - he's talking about people with your attitude, and the underachievers, the lazy, and peeps who think the world owes them a living.
People who think the world owes them a living? It's funny how when people become unemployed the generalisation is that they are lazy and don't want to work.
I wonder, would I rather be sitting on £64 quid a week or having a better income that left me with enough money to pay my bills and some left over?
As for people being able to sit on JSA for a long period of time, well every time I sign on I have to show that I am actively seeking work. If I refuse a job without good reason, my money will be stopped. If I fail to attend a back to work session, I'll be sanctioned and my benefit stopped for a week, there are other sanctions that can be applied to people who miss meetings, fail to sign on on time, people can get their benefits stopped for up to 26 weeks if they fail to meet certain criteria.
It's easier to sit on your backside and do nothing if you are on one of the benefits that involves getting a line from a GP to say that you aren't fit for work and even then, there's now a push with the new ESA to get people who are on the sick back into work.
But I know people with absolutely nothing wrong with them who are on income support/DLA/pension credit and are making a comparative fortune from the DSS.
I know people who could work and who don't want to work and at the moment don't need to work because they have been signed off as unfit to do so. I was on the bus about 6 months ago and heard someone say that he had been pulled in for a medical to see if he was still entitled to Incapacity Benefit.
His exact words were, if I get a job, I'll fake an epileptic fit and walk off on the first day.
So yes, there are people who think the world owes them a living, I'm not one of them.
Neither am I lazy or underachieving.
This was the only recent article I could find on Alan Sugar and unemployment.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6055555/Alan-Sugar-Governments-record-on-apprentices-is-scandalous.html#
Here's some criticism of the apprentice scheme fronted by Sir Alan
http://www.cnplus.co.uk/hot-topics/skills/hugh-grants-plumber-blasts-alan-sugars-apprenticeship-scheme/5206898.article#
Here's one about the recession, the unemployment queues are tipped to hit 3 million or more next year, from the current 2.47 million
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20091023/tuk-britain-in-grip-of-record-recession-dba1618.html
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 5:37:58 AM | Either way, it cannot be argued that the present system 'works' with so many unintentionally unemployed and people unable to get a footing on the housing ladder to merely have somewhere to live due to unnaturally inflated property prices.
Capitalism is not the problem here, nor are the owners of institutions - the problem was the personal greed of a few individuals (aptly named "B"ankers) and that of the regulatory boards for allowing them to peruse their activities. When people have the power to spend other peoples money they should be tightly regulated. You will find a lot of business owners suffered and even lost their businesses through the current situation.
I condemn anyone who abuses their position at the cost of others for personal gain.
At the same time people deserve what they are paid, after all they settled for it.
It's a competitive market out there, if you want to earn more then make yourself outstand from everyone else by improving skills\education.
Continue to do this and you will become a boss\owner eventually
Alan Sugar is not talking about unfortunate people who find themselves out of a job through the recession
Msg: 94: I reiterate my former statement. It is pointed at the other people you mentioned
MORE productive in order to pay the bosses wages
And who motivates these workers to be productive? | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 6:03:28 AM | Yep I sure would.
I trained as a Travel consultant for years, after my marriage breakdown I took a year out of work til my youngest child started full time Education. When she started it was evident that I wouldn't get back into travel with most employers requiring you work til 5.30 and must work Saturdays every weekend. Jobs in that profession were also scarse in this area.
So every week in the paper I saw the same company advertising homecare, flexible choose your own hours. I went for it, was offered a position on the spot and have now been there over a year. I was offered assistant managers position only a couple of weeks ago for the whole rural area I cover, unfortunatly its not my time, it requires an early morning start which I cant do as a single parent.. nevermind, its was only twice the wage plus a company car
This is my career path now and I love it, so yes, take what you can get, you never know it may be your dream job! | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 6:31:24 AM |
And who motivates these workers to be productive?
Pride in their skills and recompense for their crafts motivates people to work.
Capitalism is not the problem here, nor are the owners of institutions - the problem was the personal greed of a few individuals (aptly named "B"ankers) and that of the regulatory boards for allowing them to peruse their activities.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that it was bankers and banks who hoarde capital in the form of money and gold reserves which is precisely what Capitalism is.
And it can't be shrugged off so easily. We have recessions coming around in approximately 15 year cycles which proves that the system is not working. Of course the recent one could have been the 'biggie' that is predicted will occur in approximately 70 year cycles.
At the same time people deserve what they are paid, after all they settled for it.
Not everyone shares this view. People are at the mercy of the markets. They have to accept what is being offered and risk being undercut when work is scare. This delights and benefits the corporations greatly whilst punishing people who's primary concern is survival.
It's a competitive market out there, if you want to earn more then make yourself outstand from everyone else by improving skills\education.
Continue to do this and you will become a boss\owner eventually
No ta. It's just survival of the fittest b0ll0cks which is how animals behave. Humans have the intelligence and the capacity to rise above darwinism. It'll not be long before they wake up and they see through this big sham where the majority are subservient to the few and I wouldn't trade places with the architects and the power-brokers like your Alan Sugars when that day finally arrives. | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 7:14:12 AM | So what are you saying - wealth and power should be shared equally!!
What happens when it's Kerry Katona's turn to run the economy, we crash n burn?
Will Arthur Mullard negotiate huge multi-million contracts that bring in jobs?
Will Frank Bruno do the costings for these contracts?
And if wealth was shared equally what would motivate people to become educated, to put so many hours into research and develop the country when they could get the same sitting on their ass.
As for worker motivating themselves, this is a fantasy. Many workers would show up late, go home early, take days off when they liked, and do the minimum if there was no control.
Without a view of the bigger picture why do anything else | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 9:51:43 AM | So what are you saying - wealth and power should be shared equally!!
What happens when it's Kerry Katona's turn to run the economy, we crash n burn?
Will Arthur Mullard negotiate huge multi-million contracts that bring in jobs?
Will Frank Bruno do the costings for these contracts?
And if wealth was shared equally what would motivate people to become educated, to put so many hours into research and develop the country when they could get the same sitting on their ass.
As for worker motivating themselves, this is a fantasy. Many workers would show up late, go home early, take days off when they liked, and do the minimum if there was no control.
Without a view of the bigger picture why do anything else
There would no longer be an 'economy'. It's too difficult now to address these points without veering even further away from the main topic and also our posting tennis will get the thread deleted before long. I can only re-iterate that Capitalism isn't working and it's the working class who suffer the most at the instability of the system. If you want to learn more about the basics then read At The Cafe by Errico Malatesta and try to keep an open mind as your arguments get demolished.
Alternatively you can browse the Anarchist FAQ online for free:
http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html | |
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| Would you do any job rather than be unemployed?
Posted: 10/24/2009 9:58:03 AM |
Would you do any job rather than be unemployed
Short answer is - no way.
But then I am convinced I could find something that I was happy to do, not necessary in my field - I am multitalented  | |
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