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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/16/2009 6:29:22 PM | Okey-Dokey TrueSamurai..., I understand...
and I agree with you.. .
---SoldierByte---
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/16/2009 6:53:33 PM |
My sister-in-law's family was worse than mine because growing up her dad was an active alcoholic. She told me once that it dawned on her one day that it didn't matter what her family did or didn't do, Jesus loved her so the rest didn't matter. We had that conversation about 20 years ago and at the time I thought, well that is a copout that allows people to treat you like dog doo without redress but if it works for somebody? When you have no control over other people you need to figure out a way for yourself to be okay with what they do or don't do.
I've got more sad stories about my experiences of people than I can actually deal with emotionally. Some of them would be in much worse shape, or died rather painfully if they hadn't taken up religion and they've a really healthy attitude towards it.
Relatively few are full on fundamentalists, and it's because they're still lost and know it, are a bit desperate about that, don't really believe in what they claim and so need others to do it for them and are prepared to bully to achieve that.
To me a sincere religious belief is perfectly rational. Sincere being the operative word, and it is not about the words used by the claimant but what they themselves, put to action.
I actually get along very well with people who practise religion genuinely. And very, very badly with people who run around doing nothing more than talking about it like a used car salesman. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/16/2009 7:17:56 PM | You can unlearn it once you know the source and the cause.
But the process is slow. I am going through a similar phase where I am slowly deconstructing the lies I was taught as a child. It's hard and yeah, you have to be your own teacher and read lots of books and articles. Just keep a positive attitude that you are rebuilding yourself and I think you will eventually succeed.
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/16/2009 7:55:32 PM | Conceptually, the best way to unlearn is to have guidance from someone else you trust. When we have to unlearn something, it's as unnatural as brushing your teeth with your left (or 'other') hand, and doesn't seem right. That's why someone we trust is important for them to guide you.
And you do it by understanding, followed by action. I think you're in a situation of not just "unlearning", but changing how you instinctively feel -- a much more uphill battle. What that takes is a new situation... and NOT a stubborn viewpoint to back up your unhealthy emotions as being true/okay/the-right-way. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/16/2009 8:27:34 PM |
Do you think it is wrong to be hurt by other people's behaviour? Do you see it as some kind of failing?
Absolutely not, but when you are 45 and can still be totally infuriated or deeply hurt when you actually pretty much expect the negative behavior, it is frustrating I think more than anything else. I thought I had put some of this behind me. But when I nearly died two years ago and I found that that didn't even make a difference with her behavior it was a bit like going back to square one. She rescinded her assistance because when I was still so whacked out from the physical ordeal and the medication that I didn't recognize my own son I was apparently supposed to remember to thank her for coming to my deathbed.
When my father died ten years ago I realized that we had spent not an inordinate amount of time arguing about stupid crap but enough that I didn't want that for the rest of the time I had left with my mother. So, many of the things that had upset me in the past, her little digs, etc., I let slide and it was like she went mental and renewed her efforts. We wonder at this point if she doesn't think people love her unless they are fighting but she is also the queen of the putdowns, etc. And she knows how to push buttons because she treats my kids like crap, having transferred the way she treated me as opposed to my middle brother onto my/his kids.
I guess what I would prefer is a momentary pang and truly being able to let it go within like an hour instead of a couple of days. I am a work in progress. The last incident I had managed to pretty much lay to rest within 4-5 hours! My best friend growing up is going through the same process and it has been helpful to talk to each other and give suggestions, etc. for managing our parents.
Arabian, given the last repost, I think you were not uncomfortable with unavailable guy because you didn't have to open up with him whereas available man challenged you and caused you to leave yourself open to emotional pain so to a significant degree it was uncharted territory. You also didn't have to work to get him to be available so again, something you were unfamiliar with. A gift that didn't have to be earned is a tremendously humbling and discombobulating thing for those unfamiliar with it.
I think it is pretty huge that you were able to see things clearly enough to let go of unavailable man so quickly. I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt and chances but as the years pass, I much more quickly recognize when someone has a problem I don't want to deal with because they are fooling themselves about its existence.
Several posters noted that you sometimes have to do things that are hard, until the feelings start to match the behavior. It's kind of like when you break up, and you know the person is bad for you in your head but you still care about them on some level so you do what you have to do, what your intellect tells you until your heart catches up. I think you need to embrace the discomfort while your heart catches up. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/16/2009 10:02:45 PM | so we return to the start; and again with simplicity:
1) self awareness
2) self discipline | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/16/2009 10:47:38 PM | First you get rid of all the conditioning. ( Become a tabula rasa........Emptyness is that). How? Through AWARENESS _ EFFORT SELF_DISCIPLINE ( like suggested above).
Then: you choose what you want to become ( through DISCRIMINATION you put new content into the mind; through FEELING you experience the heart). Whether you succeed or fail, you have grown and you have transformed yourself.
That's all......it's just a process of transformation, which can be long and painful but it's never really near completion.
The reality is: some people are happier alone. They find Peace in their aloneness, they are at peace with that transformation......
Romantic love is not the only form of love available to humanity and not necessarily the best.
If you look for love that is conditioned, you will always find that it changes, it transforms..... if one was totally conditioned by past behavior, one would not be able to transform.....You have proven instead, that you can. Just BE PATIENT! One day you will wake up and find yourself to be just a gorgeous butterfly that everybody would want to see free. Which kind of love you want? The kind that makes you a slave, or the kind that makes you free?
Change perspective. Focus on the transformation, not on what you want to UNLEARN. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 12:49:58 AM |
I guess I finally got clarity by dating two extreme opposites at the same time, perhaps I finally had it all in front of me to compare my reactions to both of these guys...I'm glad I did, because both helped me realize that I need to be alone in this journey...I need to be comfortable revisiting my own issues, I understand why they’re there..But making peace with them is another thing all together.
While i understand the popular idea of these forums is to fix yourself before you get involved with someone I disagree. Behaviours do not happen in isolation. What you felt when you were with the fella that was emotionally available will not surface sufficiently enough for you to reflect deeply enough to over come or become aware of it's true meaning. You don't know if it was just something he was hiding from you that made you feel that way or if it was truly something from within.
I know i talk about Carl Rogers a lot and perhaps some are sick of it. But it really makes a lot of sense in such situations. An intimate relationship is more then just being intimate or (emotional with each other) We are always changing and growing so it stands to reason that intimacy is a process as much as a shared experience in such moments we all can relate to. It is the relationships that don't allow for such growth and change that tend to become dysfunctional and fail. So you are where you are and anyone you meet will be where they are. It is compassion and understanding for each other that opens the door for intimacy to grow and if you have had issues of not accepting men who were not emotionally available before it stands to reason that you may be reluctant to get involved knowing that you also have such an issue. But you sound willing to grow and change so it is safe to assume that men are also willing to do the same.
If you try to heal yourself you are doing it in isolation which will lead to other issues to surface once you decide to poke your head out of your little healing cave. It is impossible to avoid such things. But if you choose to relate to someone with the premise that you will relate to your romantic prospects in a way that gives them the opportunity to grow and change and he does the same for you, you both grow and change, together. You may go through several partners on this journey or you may find one that can grow and change with you till the end who knows, but i know that any change in my life has been in the confines of relating to someone else. Whether through work or through intimate relationships. The change that i worked on in my cave rarely translated into being able to relate to others better, if anything it made it worse as i was learning all sorts of things that in the real world of relationships were to lofty and put more distance between potential partners.
It wasn't until meeting rune3 that a part of me was unlocked to actually be able to be truly intimate with her. Within four months of talking and interacting with her outweighed 12 years of self prescribed growth in isolation. Just food for thought | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 1:12:19 AM | You don't know if it was just something he was hiding from you that made you feel that way or if it was truly something from within.
You know I was thinking exactly the same thing today..How will I know? I've always been one to trust my intiution, it's never let me down. But now I'm a little confused as to where the discomfort is coming from. Can the discomfort be caused by his availability? or is he in fact hiding something that's causing the discomfort? And do I challenge myself regardless of the discomfort and see where it leads me? Sorry Crazylilting I'm really just thinking out loud.
It wasn't until meeting rune3 that a part of me was unlocked to actually be able to be truly intimate with her. Within four months of talking and interacting with her outweighed 12 years of self prescribed growth in isolation. Just food for thought
I had no idea that you and Rune3 were together...it explains a lot actually lol...you both seem to have a way to get to the bottom of things, with so much clarity!.
One day you will wake up and find yourself to be just a gorgeous butterfly that everybody would want to see free. Which kind of love you want? The kind that makes you a slave, or the kind that makes you free?
LOL.....I think you're on to something there Nina......which makes me wonder. Are we really slaves when in love?
I think it is pretty huge that you were able to see things clearly enough to let go of unavailable man so quickly. I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt and chances but as the years pass, I much more quickly recognize when someone has a problem I don't want to deal with because they are fooling themselves about its existence.
I think when you've dated enough unavailable ones you spot the red flags straight away... :) I've become an expert...in fact I dare say that I can even spot them on the forum by their posts lol...
so we return to the start; and again with simplicity:
1) self awareness
2) self discipline
Thanks common..note made to self, I'll stick it on the fridge :).
I just had a thought...I keep speaking about the unavailable man, but doesn't like attract like? Wouldn't I on some level also be unavailable emotionally too? And if this is so, then does it make those that seem to be available that are attracted to me, doesn't it make them unavailable too...that is, if we go with the law of like attracts like..or am i missing something here...ohhhh my mind is spinning...
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 4:26:22 AM | Are we really slaves when in love? In my opinion, yes. When you learn To love, no. But when you are IN love...? Yes. See? You worry about all this mundane stuff......is he emotionally available, am I emotionally available, does he have to be similar to me, does he have to be opposite to me........If it was good love, you wouldn't even ask the questions. Next time, when you have no questions, you know you have found the one. We will simply adapt to each other and learn from that. It is when love ultimately becomes compassion, that you know you are there.
If there is 'resistance', it's because one of the two has not evolved to the level of compassionate love, is not ready.....so to speak.
It's always me that leaves relationships, because I am the one that resists. I am never ready and I doubt I will ever be....Right now I prefer to be alone. The only love I would want is the one I had this my husband: it failed because I kept resisting.
Now, the problem is............will I UNLEARN to resist? Not, unless I gain total clarity and acceptance within myself, not till I get that compassion is needed first for one's own well-being. If you don't have love in yourself, whom do you want to give it to? Can you get an orange juice from a dry orange?
When we see a problem in the other, it's usually our problem that we see. But since we can't accept it, it becomes a problem of the relationship. ( of course this is subject to Exceptions.........addictions, self-inflicting pain.....). so it's always......I can't accept this, I can't take that and bla bla bla, which translates into......he is the wrong one, this is bad timing, he is this and I am that.
Please ask Rune and Crazylilting if they had Resistance to each other. Had you, guys? What did you have that needed unlearning? | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 7:52:14 AM |
An intimate relationship is more then just being intimate or (emotional with each other) We are always changing and growing so it stands to reason that intimacy is a process as much as a shared experience in such moments we all can relate to. It is the relationships that don't allow for such growth and change that tend to become dysfunctional and fail. So you are where you are and anyone you meet will be where they are. It is compassion and understanding for each other that opens the door for intimacy to grow and if you have had issues of not accepting men who were not emotionally available before it stands to reason that you may be reluctant to get involved knowing that you also have such an issue. But you sound willing to grow and change so it is safe to assume that men are also willing to do the same.
I agree very much with this - as valuable as it is, and it is valuable, there is only so much growth one can do in isolation. Especially when where one needs to grow is in the area of relationship: how one relates to another. I discussed a problem I was having with a wise man in my life and he suggested I could work on it with the fellow I was in a relationship with now, or wait and handle it with the next fellow... because the problem was mine/my perspective and would keep coming up when I was in relationship. As a matter of fact, he suggested I date rather than get into a relationship so I could notice when my "stuff" popped up without having a lot at stake. He thought that would give me greater awareness of what and how I was doing/being and practice at shifting it.
He also suggested that I not work at relationships. I've spoken of this before in other threads, but I had relationship lined up as something you worked really hard at. His observation was I would always find a relationship that needed work and his invitation was to hold open the possibility that relationships require no work at all.
On dating emotionally unavailable men: I can't speak to how it is for you AA, but in my case, it did mean I was also emotionally unavailable. From my skewed perspective, it meant an emotionally available man looked needy, and it was pretty much guaranteed to be "one date and done" and I'd go blissfully on my way, secure in the knowledge that I had just successfully avoided a man who would be problematic for me. In contrast, an emotionally unavailable man didn't cause me to reveal or expose my emotions (which I had repressed and locked down) so it felt safe for me to get in close to him and start a relationship. Problem was of course, once I got comfortable and began to reveal my emotions a bit more, or things got any depth to it, he wasn't available for that. So I'd get to work on that! It was pretty much guaranteed we could not have the type of intimate relationship I longed for. The other "perfectly designed" aspect of this was my focus was always on him. Trying to get him to open up. Huh, as long as I was focused on him, I didn't need to look at me and my own issues.
Awareness, for me, was in realizing how perfectly designed my relationships were. They were designed by me so my well developed coping strategies would be needed and I would be so occupied that I didn't have the time/space to look at the issues on my own plate. OOPs, I almost forgot that I always looked together and wise, lol. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:03:27 AM | Self Awareness. The famous point A
Large term, n’est ce pas? What else can we read into this:
1) knowing what your true needs are
2) knowing what are you willing to offer or your boundaries.
3) Found out where you want to go or achieve.
4) Etc.
Self awareness can only be achieved by genuine logical introspection (and sometimes with the help of a neutral unbiased third party)
Looking into your past actions and reactions toward a situation or a need, by seen the results you obtained, and then by asking you the questions why of such action, reaction and thus results.
If you obtain a emotion variable in the responses, then you found out that you acted or reacted on an emotional impulse. Remove that variable and see if that was a primary factor into the result. The sub result will tell you where to focus attention and the final result the mistake.
Then by analyzing the need. do you really need it? What will having it or not, will change in your life or in you as a person? Is it an ouput?, an input? a complement? a dependency? Or a supplement?
As you start to have an image of where you are (Point A) you start to know what you require, need or want and why. You can then move on to the next point: Self Discipline.
Self Discipline.
1) Learn to say NO to yourself
2) Learn to say NO to others
3) Keep you eyes on your goal
4) Do the work.
Learning to say no to yourself or resisting indulgences, especially after or during a long period of “craving”, “purging” or “dieting” is especially hard; but also give you more confidence, will power and self esteem.
Many people fall into the trap of replacing one thing by the other; which in the case of replacing a cigarette by a carrot for the mechanic reaction might work; but not in emotional realms.
The “void” or emptiness can only be filled by yourself with yourself. When you accept your life and yourself as such and do the process of self improvement, you start a process of self fulfilling and self reinforcement; turning a relationship for example, from a complement and a dependency in some cases, into a supplement: an enrichment of an already complete and fulfilled individual. (from Point A to B)
As you are now aware of yourself and all of your current variables, you have a better focus on where you want to go and what you want. That goal can be at short or term and be of any aspect, form or function.
In the example you provided: unavailable men. The questions you have to ask yourself are: are those the unavailable ones or the emotionally unavailable ones? Is it the challenge? Or simply a projection of my own fears or dependency? etc.
A lot of women are attracted to emotionally unavailable men because it force them to come out of their own auto protective shell in order to reach someone else and know unconsciously that they can return to that shell at will, for any reasons and do not realize that the problem wasn’t really the men, but the fact that the woman where carrying a shell and believed that they could not be asked themselves something from someone that do not give it in the first place, for a reason or another.
Now, the trick is to figure out why a shell in the first place! (so step back a little into Point A methodology again).
Is it a fear to lose something? A fear of commitment, obligation and /or responsibility? Fear of exposure? A result of a previous event in your life? A lack of self confidence or esteem? A small combination of them all?
This is the same thing with wanting completely unavailable men: you do see externally qualities and desire but also know that you cannot be hurt as the person cannot be present. It is like watching a somewhat interactive movie within your shell; a placebo effect that permits you to fulfill part of a need without risking anything. “better little then none” crap philosophy.
There is not much point about figuring out why another person is emotionally unavailable as there are unavailable to you. To a stretch you might want to try and analyze the reasons but it will be pointless as this sort of change must come from within.
this is just a superficial overview of A and B and there is far more others points, but by doing those already, you obtain a good foundation and can proceed. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:20:25 AM | Great question, and great answers! It seems that the starting point of any effort to change is wherever you fully understand what the problem is. And while knowing what to do, and doing it are two very different things, just possessing the self-awareness to correctly diagnose the problem, is IMO perhaps the most essential part of the process. How many people never change anything, simply because they haven't looked at themselves honestly and realistically?
I think it's great that you have such a clear view of behaviors that might be holding you back, AA. Even if you don't entirely succeed in unlearning them, just being aware of them might be enough to bring about some pretty significant changes in your outcomes! | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:39:15 AM | We can only unlearn behavior if we WANT to. If something is working, why change it?
If this hypothetical girl likes to WORK for attention and affection, then I guess she's stuck/doomed with always going for men like her father-! Since she's been with guys who are instantly loving, and she found that unsatisfying, obviously she LIKES to work for love, and that's OK! | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:57:43 AM | It seems the behavior you are speaking about, and the patterns, all stem from one place; (at least in my very humble opinion)
and that is her needing her validation from her father to make herself happy and fulfilled.
As long as that is her goal and her behavior and interaction the manipulation of that goal; she will always try to be "winning" people; and she will never be anything but a mirror that other people show herself to be.
So even though she is trying to change her behavior, the core problem within her remains; so she will be even that much more uncomfortable.
Behavior is only our way of interacting within our world and the people within it... for behavior to "work" we have to be trying to become centered and at peace within ourselves.
Once she quits trying to behave any way and actually lets herself love herself outside of how her father views and itneracts with her; she will quit "trying" to win his love and approval and if she gets it, it will be gravy; and not a life's endeavor
and then anyone else she acts with, however she chooses to behave, will again not be for the sake of her validating herself, but her connecting iwth another human being solely for the sake of interaction for its own sake. Getting to know them, getting to understand them, sharing and being shared with.
With nothing needed "from" them or vice versa; a mutual sharing.
At least in a perfect world, and again, only in my very, very humble opinion. Because behavior is still a bandaid; if you don't fix the core reason why something else is comfortable to begin with; changing behavior won't fix it; it will make it worse.
again, imvvho | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 10:31:03 AM |
Please ask Rune and Crazylilting if they had Resistance to each other. Had you, guys? What did you have that needed unlearning? First, I want to be quite clear that what worked for us wouldn't necessarily be right for anyone else, let alone everyone else: we meet few people who are on a remotely similar wavelength to ourselves and it stands to reason that different things will work for those who have different ways of thinking. Perhaps there are some general ideas though.
There was a lot to unlearn but it was never an effort, it happened gradually. Being in a relationship that is wrong is nothing like being in one that is right. If you had a secure childhood you may remember what it was like to follow impulses without restraint, to say exactly what was on your mind without constant care and censor, fear of triggering a bad reaction, anxiety about walking on eggshells. Relating to my partner was natural from the first email. I likened it to having 2 brains to think with as we discussed ideas because his way of thinking was so in tune with mine. At this point we had no thought we would get involved, we just connected intellectually and that was amazing. He 'got' what I was talking about and more than that, he had opinions of his own that shed further light or raised further questions and we looked at the world together, trying to make sense of it.
He had plenty of barriers. He warned me off in his first email, saying "no possibility of relationship" -- which I thought was entirely unnecessary, as I wasn't even considering it -- and the fact there was an ocean between us seemed to put that comfortably out of the question. We were talking just yesterday, he was asking me questions about two friends and I didn't know many of the answers. He pointed out that I don't ask many (personal) questions. I don't: I like to leave people free to tell me what they want. I hate the thought of putting anyone under pressure.
He was extremely cautious. It took at least a month of daily multi-page emails before he suggested talking on msn. Every day, I had this uncertainty over whether there would be a reply to my message or whether he would sign in. I didn't realise until he told me later that he had a long history of running away/falling off the planet. I can't recall there being particular effort on my part... I simply enjoyed talking with him, getting to know him. He seemed to me to be very wise and I had a lot of questions about his way of looking at the world. It was also wonderful to talk to someone who understood me, rather than responding "that's deep" and backing off. Relating was easy, from the first moment. I have very rarely found it difficult to accept anything about him: the way he is just makes perfect sense to me.
I do know it was really important that I instinctively respected his boundaries and walls. I hate to make other people feel uncomfortable and he last thing I wanted to do was to try to tell him what he needed. If he felt he needed walls, I was all in favour of him keeping them. If you care about a person and respect their mind, what other attitude would even be possible? When he no-longer felt a need for the walls, they came down. But it wasn't something I was waiting for: I just accepted him as he was and wasn't bothered by the walls. The day the walls came down was huge for him, but not so much for me: I loved him as a friend and the walls were not even a blip on my radar. He was just who he was and I was not trying to make him be anything. Equally, he made it clear that he was not going to try to influence my opinions of him. He showed me who he was, bit by bit and didn't try to make himself look shiny or good. I didn't distrust him but I know he'd have made space for that, because he knows the importance of feeling safe and he would not want to take that from anyone.
Things that needed unlearning were the things learned in previous relationships. We come across these every so often: trigger points, where an ex has taught us that certain words/behaviour means X and we react to that, leaving the other one going "huh? no way did I mean that!". I think this type of thing is inevitable but through getting to know each other better, a lot of this gets gradually dropped. I semi-joke that one day we will be able to throw plates at each other and it won't matter because we see past it. To be honest I think we are already there.
Experience of a person, of the way they are towards you, increasingly colours your interpretations of their behaviours and I think the colours represent the person beyond the behaviour, if you base it truly on your experience of them and not on unfounded hopes and fears based on your own past.
I think that it's a shame that people try to get involved so fast. It took 3 months of huge daily emails + talking online every waking non-work minute to develop friendship to the point where we simply had to meet. We did not assume that what we shared online would carry over into real life and we protected each other from assuming it. Maintaining logical boundaries is really important. I think it's very foolish to behave as though you are more intimate with the person than you actually are and I think that far too many relationships are power struggles that result from the fear people feel at letting others cross logical boundaries. It doesn't make sense to talk to someone of loving them when they don't know you well enough to know what that means to you and you don't know them well enough to know what that means to them. I know they do it in films, but they also make a million other shortcuts that we understand perfectly well to be a representation rather than reality.
There is nothing wrong with you or anyone else maintaining walls or boundaries whilst it is felt by that individual that they are needed. Relating to a person is a journey: you can't skip to the end and say "Hey you seem like a cool person, lets have a relationship!". Some people relate primarily to their hopes, others to their fears and ultimately it takes more or less time to get these out of the way so that what you are seeing is based on your experience of the other person, not fantasies and demons. Many fantasies and demons don't rise up and cause trouble when you're alone, so I think that one of the aspects of relating involves supporting the other person as their vision blurs and clears. Perception is not only the responsibility of the one seeing, but also the one seen. I think it is easy to think that we are hiding nothing and fail to realise how unclear we actually appear to others, looking through eyes that have decades of different experiences to refer to and interpret things through.
The short version? Respect the journey -- there is no destination. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 10:33:43 AM |
The short version? Respect the journey -- there is no destination. [/]
Rune..I really like that. Alot. And couldn't agree more. Things happen as they will.
Happy for you two. Peace out. k | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 11:04:44 AM | In the presence of so much good advice and heartfelt stories, I am humbled to offer my opinions. Indeed, they are just my opinions.
While many have explained what has worked for them, AA, there is one thing that must be understood first. We all have our own ways of working through difficult times. What might work for SoldierByte and TrueSamarai might not work for, say, vannaheim or packagedeal3x or Silken Fire. Some people are motivated by a challenge (for instance, I was challenged once by these simple words: "Only 10% of people ever overcome this.") I believed I was or could be in the top 10%, and so I prevailed and overcame. Some are motivated by the dare: You CAN'T do so-and-so. And they go about steadfastly proving someone wrong. Some find solace in religion; some in counseling. These are merely examples of many tools that can be used. Whether they are successful or not depends entirely upon the individual.
Some people are natural "self-healers." Like you and I, we had that "moment" when we realized it must be something WE were doing. We then seek to find out WHY. While some have said that you cannot heal in a bubble, I have found that being still and listening to yourself as Silken Fire described is a good way for me. Understanding, or at least attempting to understand, another's motivations does help. We are all flawed. To admit that our parents are/were flawed can be easier than understanding why. If this works for you or helps you, then use it. I also believe that, at some point, we must try out our new wings, so to speak, and see if we can actually fly, or if we can only flap our wings and get from branch to branch. Some day, we hope to be able to soar with the eagles.
My sincere desire is that we will all meet someday in that clear, blue sky and know the joy that is self-realization..............being the best that we can be.
Sequoyah | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 1:29:25 PM | | If you want to change, you place yourself in uncomfortable situations. The more uncomfortable you are initially, the more quickly your perspective will change. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 1:49:08 PM |
Please ask Rune and Crazylilting if they had Resistance to each other. Had you, guys? What did you have that needed unlearning?
As rune3 has already answered this question so eloquently i can only add what was going on within me during the process of getting to know her.
Resistance, what a word. Something i had done my whole life till i met rune3. This is one of the most important parts to the whole thing i think. Most people tend to want so desperately to connect to someone else that they push the boundaries of the other person. I hear all sorts of justifications to this end, one of the most common is that you cannot grow unless you go out of your comfort zone. I am living proof of the contrary to this and others may or may not agree or identify but i can testify to an inner transformation that came about through the peaceful and thoughtful interactions i had with rune3 as we were getting to know each other.
A bit of background. I had studied human nature for years educated in addictions counseling, life skills coaching and taken a host of personal growth courses as well as expanded my spiritual self through the study of Reiki becoming a master and a teacher. But one thing alluded me, to feel another human being. To connect deeply with another living being. The whole journey was because i felt so broken, a legacy left from a rather unbelievable childhood experience that left a physical pain in my heart that often felt like a rock and sometimes had the pain of an ice pick. I met rune three days before my last time i was to poke my head out of my cave and had made the choice to never get in a relationship ever again because the people i met during this month long test period clearly showed me that i was to flawed to ever recover and didn't want to get involved with anyone else as i knew it would only lead to hurting yet another person.
So right from the beginning i made it clear that i would never meet her nor would we ever be in any relationship other then being pen pals but i was intrigued at the possibility of being able to share what i knew and felt compelled to know what she knew as i had been a fan of her posts here on POF. I had always felt as though no one had or could understand what i had to say on the subject but seen that she was open enough to possibly get it. The idea made me feel less alone in the world.
It seemed she had the missing pieces to the puzzle of my life. She taught me about secular humanism and introduced me to Carl Rogers. She never pushed or demanded anything of me we just talked effortlessly on one of our shared passions for people and relationships and what makes people do the things they do. During this time I began to disclose just how broken i felt and how flawed i really was and how much i felt like a fraud teaching the things i taught and helping the people i helped. One by one she showed me the lies about myself i had accepted as truth. Not in some grasping kind of way that it was a plan to fix me to be together but because she cared. I taught her about Reiki and we would send each other this when ever we thought about it.
In our writings back and forth we shared so much of ourselves yet there was no end goal or purpose to this sharing just the joy of sharing, learning about ourselves each other and that of those around us. Till one day she sent me a note that changed me forever. I don't remember the words but i remember the intent and the love that was behind the words. That hard rock in my heart and stabbing feeling became very intense and i broke down and when i did i could feel it dissipate and leave me. I had finally known what it feels like to be connected to another human being. This feeling was beyond any spiritual experience i had ever encountered, stronger then any energy i had ever had running through my body and the joy was unspeakable.
So it was time to give her my msn address! lol...
What did i have to unlearn? Everything i had ever known to be true about myself. It was what i thought i knew about myself that was holding me back. Not what i knew about how to be in a relationship and was unable to achieve with another human being.
From that day on we began to get to know each other even more deeply. The forums were invaluable. Every issue that could come up comes up in the forum and we used this as creative energy to explore all the possibilities of how we see things how we would react etc... We knew each other very well and this is when we started having feelings that were inappropriate for the medium we knew each other in. We were very protective of each others hearts. We both new what it was like to be hurt and we didn't want to hurt each other so we made a plan to meet but in the mean time we reminded each other that what we shared online may not translate to real life, which was difficult for me as i already felt attached (connected). But I didn't want her to feel that she had to feel a certain way when she met me, i wanted it to be real no matter how she felt, and so did she.
To sum up lol... sorry for the long post. Take what fits and leave the rest. But come back to it from time to time when things aren't working out for you as you will find something new to glean. Our story is not the end all be all but it is a beautiful beginning. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 3:11:48 PM | Awareness, for me, was in realizing how perfectly designed my relationships were. They were designed by me so my well developed coping strategies would be needed and I would be so occupied that I didn't have the time/space to look at the issues on my own plate. OOPs, I almost forgot that I always looked together and wise, lol. . This was priceless, Margo.....
What did i have to unlearn? Everything i had ever known to be true about myself. It was what i thought i knew about myself that was holding me back. Not what i knew about how to be in a relationship and was unable to achieve with another human being. . Very inspirational, I have to say, Çrazylilting. .............. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 3:19:33 PM | Rune3/Crazy...Thank you so much for sharing your personal experience, there are so many aspects of your experience that i'm convinced others can benefit from.
I felt at ease reading both your posts and could relate to so many things you went through Crazy. I like how you speak of your walls, how they fell down on their own. Perhaps like Rune3 said, if we focus less on the walls and more on the person we are trying to relate with there would be no resistance...I guess it’s true what they say “the more energy we put on something the stronger it becomes”…
While some have said that you cannot heal in a bubble, I have found that being still and listening to yourself as Silken Fire described is a good way for me. Understanding, or at least attempting to understand, another's motivations does help.
Although I do understand what you’re saying SQ, I can’t help but feel that I need to try something else. The isolation you speak of is something I’ve been doing for almost two and half years, if you met me you would think I’m one of the most social butterfly you’ve ever met, as long as no one threatened to take down my walls I was fine, thus dating the emotionally unavailable..it was a safe zone for me. So although isolation can have it’s advantages, in doing so I had no mirrors to reflect who I really am. It almost like a student that knows all the answers but couldn’t put them to practice.
On dating emotionally unavailable men: I can't speak to how it is for you AA, but in my case, it did mean I was also emotionally unavailable. From my skewed perspective, it meant an emotionally available man looked needy, and it was pretty much guaranteed to be "one date and done" and I'd go blissfully on my way, secure in the knowledge that I had just successfully avoided a man who would be problematic for me. In contrast, an emotionally unavailable man didn't cause me to reveal or expose my emotions (which I had repressed and locked down) so it felt safe for me to get in close to him and start a relationship. Problem was of course, once I got comfortable and began to reveal my emotions a bit more, or things got any depth to it, he wasn't available for that. So I'd get to work on that! It was pretty much guaranteed we could not have the type of intimate relationship I longed for. The other "perfectly designed" aspect of this was my focus was always on him. Trying to get him to open up. Huh, as long as I was focused on him, I didn't need to look at me and my own isssues
Pretty much sums me up too Margo. I could swear the Universe is constantly challenging me with the type of men it sends into my life. I’ve always felt they’ve been from one extreme to another, either too emotionally needy or too emotionally distant, but the truth of the matter is, I’m looking at my own reflection in these people. It’s as though the universe is saying “here this is what you are before and after therefore I will give you the before and after type of men in your life too”
It’s like a vicious endless cycle…I’m drawn to the emotionally unavailable man as reasons described by your own experience…I come across ‘aloof’ so I’m essentially a safe haven for these type of men..only to start feeling ‘needy’ when I try opening up to these men, the ‘needy’ part is not welcomed by these men, for obvious reasons…so I become aloof all over again. All along I’m subconsciously labeling each behavior as good or bad depending on how it was greeted…’opening up’ translates as ‘needy’, with a painful outcome…and ‘aloof’ becomes ‘safe’ and successful…therefore I start judging others by this very same standard as well..so all along what I like and dislike in others is essentially what I like and dislike in myself. | |
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| How do we Unlearn behavior?
Posted: 8/17/2009 4:24:15 PM | I am more in the frame of mind that people can choose to re-educate/evaluate themselves. Everything in life is a choice. "Get busy living or busy dying."-Red of S.R. by S.K. | |
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