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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/1/2009 8:03:05 AM | I was wondering this myself recently. Especially since one American referred to Canada as a "socialist state" in another thread and I've noticed a decided attitude from many Americans that socialism is somehow "evil". Got me wondering, what's wrong with socialism? Canada is NOT a socialist country, though it is more socialist inclined than the USA. I have American friends and distant relatives, so I'm not anti-American.
Canada is not Communist, which looks good in theory, but didn't work out so well. There is plenty of opportunity in Canada for those of an entrepeurnial spirit, though the taxes tend to discourage small businesses (the funding for all those social services has to come from somewhere, and the gov't gets the money from taxpayers and businesses).
Canada didn't have public health care until the early 1960's. Funny that our health-care is becoming more "Americanized" as the US considers "Canadianizing" their health-care. Sure, there will always be those who "abuse" the system. For those who work hard, there are monetary rewards in Canada, just as in the USA. I see nothing wrong when a nation has social safety-nets to help those in less favourable situations, frequently through no fault of their own. I don't mind paying taxes that help those programs, even though it means my "take-home" pay is less. Yes, I'm unemployed now, but I wasn't always and won't remain unemployed (for those about to criticize and make accusations . ).
Personally, I think a socialist nation is a more humane nation that cares more for the most important resource -- people -- the ordinary citizen. Socialism is nothing to be afraid of and does not harm an individuals' independence. We are not islands -- nations depend on other nations just as people depend on other people. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/1/2009 8:47:28 AM | I'm not sure why people say "Communism looks good on paper/in theory", it must have sounded catchy at one point or another. Fact is, a theory can be either very simple or very complicated - if you consider communism more carefully, in theory, you will find that no, it's not good at all. Marx's understanding of economics was outdated even for his time, nevermind now. Communism is a relic of an antiquainted understanding of a field that's understood much, much better.
Socialism is an appeal to emotions. People can try to play emotional cards all they like with buzz-words such as "humane", "fair", "just", but those are all subjective terms. It should be a clue that a system won't work when people depend entirely on subjective attributes. Somebody could simply look at socialism with a different opinion and suddenly it would have no real positive attributes to that person. Does socialism effectly address economic questions of resource allocation? Does it have a mode of effective distribution? Does it have a number of mechanisms that push economic agents into production?
Economically and to me, morally, capitalism is simply superior to socialism. Let me explain why I think capitalism is better, from a moral perspective. I have a number of personal values - smoking is bad, cheating is bad, et cetera. These are all things I will go through my life without doing and I would prefer if other people didn't either. Do I think there should be laws against this? Unless there is direct damage done or contractual violations, no, I don't think there should be. Unless a third party is unduly harmed, it is my belief that a person should exercise his/her set of morals and preferences and do whatever he/she likes with his/her resources and self.
Whenever a government introduces social spending, it targets a specific cause or demographic. This is favoritism and a subjective, moral value being placed on all of society. Take for example free drug clinics - there are drug clinics that take public funding (that means tax on dollars earned) and provide free, clean needles for heroin addicts. This is a cause I personally do not support and yet I am contributing finances toward it against my will. At the same time, there are programs, such as the Make a Wish Foundation, that I do support. I regularly donate money to such things because it fits within my moral code. Providing heroin to addicts does not. What social spending does is take one moral code and apply it to a society of individuals with varying moral codes.
As a contrast, a less social system allows individuals to retain more resources such that they have more they can donate to charities that fit within their moral codes. During my time as an undergraduate student of economics, I assisted a professor and we did research on the social effects of tax rates and found that most of the time when individuals are taxed less, those individuals with expendible income will donate to charity more than their reduction in taxes. The explanation we agreed to was basically that people will want to help their #1 charity more than a charity arbitrarily assigned to them. I don't believe the research is published yet, but if it is I'll post a way to read more on it.
I'm a person very committed to my morals. I don't like anybody taking my resources from the programs I support to support the programs they want. That's what social spending is. If a program depends on government assistance because there's not enough individuals that particularly want to see it exist, is its existance justified? I don't think so. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/1/2009 8:48:36 AM | | i dont think alot of americans are " anti socialist" per say, i think its just the fact they dont trust our goverment to run anything correctly. atleast thats my outlook. i just think socialist is the term that people identify with the goverment running programs, the goverment has not ran anything right as of late. i just find it funny that the biggest crooks we have ( our poiliticans) are the ones passing judgement on the other crooks ( corp. america that have taken bailout money), my god if thats not the blind leading the blind. i love this country and wouldnt want to b anywhere else, but i think the best part of this country is its people and not the goverment. if not wanting the goverment running healthcare makes me anti socialist, then so be it. but if the people that label me that trust people like pelosy and reid, well then they have bigger problems then me. i dont care what they do in canada or other countries, if it works for them thats great, but me i dont trust any ( and i mean any) of them fools that we have in washington dc. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/1/2009 1:33:39 PM | Most all countries... well... all countries have a balance of social policy and free market policy.... There are many social policies here in America... The question is that balance between Socialism (Government run)... and Capitalism (Free Market run) programs.... The thing that a lot of Americans are saying when they say they don't want to turn into a socialistic country, is that they want to keep the balance leaning more towards a free market rather than towards an over controlling government.
With the re-election of Merkel in Germany, this shows that even in Europe... They are trying to be more like us... More freedom and free market... and less socialism. While for some reason.... A lot of us here... think we want to be more like them. This is crazy.... It is the freedoms... the Free Market... that has made this country great... It is the over reaching of our government as of late (since Clinton.... worse under Bush... and has gone out of control with Obama) Of over regulating, and forcing the political agendas onto the masses.... I mean all political agendas. Cap & Trade? Come on.... Global Warming is no more man-made CO2 than Universal Health Care will fix our Health Care Insurance problems. We need reform... not ideology. Socialism Ideology.
Yes we need social policy... we need to help those who are struggling... the homeless, poor, uninsured, but we need to give them a hand up.... not a hand out.
You know the saying..... something about giving a fish, and he can eat for that day..... teach him to fish.... well you get the picture.
BERLIN - German voters gave conservative Chancellor Angela Merkel a second term on Sunday and allowed her to dump her centre-left coalition partners in favour of the pro-business Free Democrats (FDP), projections showed.
Her challenger in the vote, Social Democrat (SPD) Frank-Walter Steinmeier, appeared on television shortly after the first projections came out and conceded that his party had suffered a "bitter defeat."
Merkel has ruled for the past four years in a "grand coalition" with the SPD but can now end that awkward partnership and work with the FDP, a grouping she has said is better placed to help nurture Europe's largest economy back to health.
Together with the FDP, Merkel would be expected to push for tax relief and extend the lifespan of German nuclear plants that are scheduled to be phased out over the next decade.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2039771 | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/1/2009 1:39:12 PM | Angela Merkel is so much farther left than any Democrat that you wouldn't even be able to recognize her positions.
Conservative in the rest of the world means one thing. Only in America and Iran does it mean what you think it means. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/1/2009 1:39:28 PM | Different set of circumstances.
Eu has big immigration problems, and a lot of countries are moving to the right.
Euro style right, not loony right like the republicans.
Cheers
F.P. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/1/2009 5:27:30 PM | We're not Europeans, nor are we Canadians so I could care less what they think of the American Political spectrum.
We are a unique people and I would love to see us get back our isolationist and freedom loving ways.
Europe's been able to keep its top, heavy socialist governments because the United States has been subsidizing their military and protecting them since the end of WW II.
But guess what?
That time is coming to an end. The United States can't afford big government anymore, nor can we continue to afford to police the world while they piss on us and demean us. The bill is coming due for us and I'm sure alot of people think that's a good thing.
Perhaps.
I guess Europe can look to China and Russia because we know they have great
humanitarian records. It will be funny watching Europe grovel to Russia over energy without any US support.
Socialist love Europe. The rest of the world looks at Europe as weak and decadent. The United States isn't far behind as we have lost our way as well.
Socialism will never fully be accepted in this country. While our Kenyan in Thief might hide in socialism's closet, the rest of the country isn't goose steeping to his rhythm. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/1/2009 9:02:05 PM | I saved this just for a thread like this one:
"Europe’s Socialists Suffering Even in Downturn "
By STEVEN ERLANGER
PARIS — A specter is haunting Europe — the specter of Socialism’s slow collapse.
Even in the midst of one of the greatest challenges to capitalism in 75 years, involving a breakdown of the financial system due to “irrational exuberance,” greed and the weakness of regulatory systems, European Socialist parties and their left-wing cousins have not found a compelling response, let alone taken advantage of the right’s failures.
German voters clobbered the Social Democratic Party on Sunday, giving it only 23 percent of the vote, its worst performance since World War II.
Voters also punished left-leaning candidates in the summer’s European Parliament elections and trounced French Socialists in 2007. Where the left holds power, as in Spain and Britain, it is under attack. Where it is out, as in France, Italy and now Germany, it is divided and listless...
(September 29, 2009)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/world/europe/29socialism.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print
Europe is steadily and increasingly losing it's love affair with its Socialist parties. So much for a "European way" to ascend to. While Europe is turning centrist, the U.S. is still detouring widely to the left...and off an economic cliff. I guess maybe they can' tjust print up trillions more Euros to cover shortfalls.
They found they have to actually address real-life problems in realistic ways. A good lesson to learn there. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/1/2009 9:29:13 PM | Socialism is somewhat automatic as soon as you build and name something a "country".
A country is nothing more than a glob of dirt / land until you name it. Once named it becomes a thing. That thing usually being some huge giant national "family" where "we" all live together as one.
This is why I don't believe in countries and I don't sing any national anthems or wave any flags. (except the black flag [the flag of no-flags], and the crossbones flag).
As a side note did you know the American Pledge of Allegience was created by a socialist for the purpose of furthering socialism in America? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/2/2009 3:01:17 AM | Maybe thats because many countries in the EU have real centrist parties.
Well parties that cover the whole political spectrum.
Not far right and not so far right like the US has.
As for defence, they are becoming more self sufficient.
also, I have a question? why are so many americans so individualistic? Why is it all about ME? humans are social creatures - living in a decent society requires sacrifices to the individual to benefit the whole. If that's a bad idea, why live together? live in the wilderness by yourself. sharing/helping others is what living in a community is about. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/2/2009 3:32:49 AM | .
Europe is steadily and increasingly losing it's love affair with its Socialist parties. So much for a "European way" to ascend to. While Europe is turning centrist, the U.S. is still detouring widely to the left...and off an economic cliff. I guess maybe they can' tjust print up trillions more Euros to cover shortfalls.
They found they have to actually address real-life problems in realistic ways. A good lesson to learn there.
Your article has some interesting points.......
"center-right parties have embraced many ideas of the left: generous welfare benefits, nationalized health care, sharp restrictions on carbon emissions, the ceding of some sovereignty to the European Union. "....................
Sounds like the GOP...............????
Europe’s center-right parties have embraced many ideas of the left: generous welfare benefits, nationalized health care, sharp restrictions on carbon emissions, the ceding of some sovereignty to the European Union. But they have won votes by promising to deliver more efficiently than the left, while working to lower taxes, improve financial regulation, and grapple with aging populations.
Europe’s conservatives, says Michel Winock, a historian at the Paris Institut d’Études Politiques, “have adapted themselves to modernity.” When Nicolas Sarkozy of France and Germany’s Angela Merkel condemn the excesses of the “Anglo-Saxon model” of capitalism while praising the protective power of the state, they are using Socialist ideas that have become mainstream, he said.
(September 29, 2009)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/29/world/europe/29socialism.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print
"They found they have to actually address real-life problems in realistic ways. A good lesson to learn there."...............
I wish the LIBERAL Dem's were Europe’s conservatives............
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/2/2009 9:58:18 AM | | universal health care did not come automatically nor was it easy here in canada,read about the struggle ,the doctors went on strike when it was first made law in the prairy province, men women and children died, british doctors had to be brought in. know your history | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/2/2009 10:00:33 AM | | americans are a funny lot, they call canada a 'socialist state',did americans know that canada is the only g8 country not to have bailed out the banks | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/2/2009 12:42:14 PM |
also, I have a question? why are so many americans so individualistic? Why is it all about ME? humans are social creatures - living in a decent society requires sacrifices to the individual to benefit the whole. If that's a bad idea, why live together? live in the wilderness by yourself. sharing/helping others is what living in a community is about.
I think often overlooked is the viability of the family, not the individual or the society, being the pivitol unit. In many areas of Europe or Asia or what have you, the populations are old and mostly all related. They are their own kinsmen. When you get to more international areas with more foreign (and thus less familial) populations, there's more focus on the individual.
Now, consider the age of the population in the new world. It's far more mixed than most countries in the old world. People in America do not have the level of familial relations as they do in other places. From the perspective of the family being the main unit, it would be surprising if America was the same or less individualistic as Europe.
I feel a special bond to my kinsmen, if only because of familiality. In my heart, I do feel that blood is thicker than water. That being said, when I consider the people of the country where I live, I don't see them as family - just strangers. Simply statistics. With all the lying, cheating, raping, murdering people out there, why would I ever care for that mass of strangers? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/2/2009 1:36:19 PM | Economically and to me, morally, capitalism is simply superior to socialism. Let me explain why I think capitalism is better, from a moral perspective. I have a number of personal values - smoking is bad, cheating is bad, et cetera. These are all things I will go through my life without doing and I would prefer if other people didn't either. Do I think there should be laws against this? Unless there is direct damage done or contractual violations, no, I don't think there should be. Unless a third party is unduly harmed, it is my belief that a person should exercise his/her set of morals and preferences and do whatever he/she likes with his/her resources and self.
And quite clearly we have another person who is "agin'" socialism" with absolutely NO concept of what it is.
I'll offer a little clue:
Capitalism IS NOT THE SAME THING as democracy and socialism IS NOT THE SAME THING as totalitarianism.
All those "moral" reasons given for being for capitalism and "agin'" socialism have nothing to do with either.
Your "moral" objection is properly directed at totalitarianism vs. democracy... NOT socialism vs. capitalism. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/2/2009 2:01:06 PM |
And quite clearly we have another person who is "agin'" socialism" with absolutely NO concept of what it is.
I'll offer a little clue:
Capitalism IS NOT THE SAME THING as democracy and socialism IS NOT THE SAME THING as totalitarianism.
All those "moral" reasons given for being for capitalism and "agin'" socialism have nothing to do with either.
Your "moral" objection is properly directed at totalitarianism vs. democracy... NOT socialism vs. capitalism.
No - my explanation should have made it clear I'm not talking about social policies, but economic ones. When you tax a person's money away from them, you are taking away their economic liberty.
Socialism is state ownership of the means of production - that is, industry and business. That means it is the state, not the free market of individuals, that ultimately decides various allocations. Robbing people of their decision of how to allocate is taking away their economic liberties.
Does that make it a little more clear? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/2/2009 2:15:43 PM | ^where do you see this happening? you make it sound black and white.
Most western countries are mixed market economies, and they work well.
Cowboy capitalism does not work - like in Argentina, with its devaluations and badly run economy.
Pure socialism does not either. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/2/2009 2:47:44 PM |
^where do you see this happening? you make it sound black and white.
Most western countries are mixed market economies, and they work well.
Cowboy capitalism does not work - like in Argentina, with its devaluations and badly run economy.
Pure socialism does not either.
Let me summarise some things from my posts in this thread, because it seems there is a lot of confusion with what I'm saying and I feel I could end up going in circles.
I originally was talking about the addition of social programs/spending. I did this because I don't like talking about pure capitalism or pure socialism because they are theorhetical systems. Instead, I was talking about policies that would move in general directions in such a dichotomy between the two.
Because I was talking about policies that would push in a certain direction and not a pure ideology itself, I was accused of not knowing what the ideology is. As a response, I demonstrate that I know very well what the ideology is and give examples of a pure ideological system.
Now you seem to be accusing me of thinking in terms of black-and-white. Normally I would respond by talking about policies pushing in a general direction, but it seems like it wouldn't be understood.
Do you see my concern about what I'm saying becoming circular? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/5/2009 7:03:11 AM | | Dennyden, You do vote don't you? You have a say in how your government is run through your vote. Sure sometimes the choices aren't all that great but if you choose to NOT exercise your vote, then you really don't have a right to complain about the government (in whatever country you're a citizen of). | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/5/2009 7:17:11 AM | Magikarp,
Communism DOES look good in theory. I've read books by Karl Marx. Unfortunately, putting Communism into practice didn't work well by the ideals of many people (including myself). But you do have to wonder why athletes in professional sport teams and entertainers receive so much money while people who do really useful things (like grow the food we need or take away the trash or make sure your water is safe to drink) don't receive as much. Who is performing a more useful role to society? I am aware of other arguments, without incentive of rewards (i.e. more money), there is no desire to do better.
Governments spend money on all sorts of things -- education, roads, streetlights, recreation centres, hospitals (in those more socially inclined nations) in addition to "social programs" (like welfare, unemployment etc. etc. -- different names in many countries).
I cannot think of any country that is purely "capitalist" and few are purely "socialist". Some nations may be more capitalist than others. but even the USA has social programs.
Even supporting your favourite charity is no guarantee that the money will mostly go for what you believe you are supporting. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/5/2009 1:54:27 PM |
I see nothing wrong when a nation has social safety-nets to help those in less favourable situations, frequently through no fault of their own. I don't mind paying taxes that help those programs, even though it means my "take-home" pay is less.
Then why not propose something that makes paying toward those types of programs optional? That's fine if you personally have no problem supporting that type of system, but expecting everyone else to share your sentiment is a bit unrealistic and somewhat arrogant. The people that work hard for their money and don't think they should be obligated to support those that do not for whatever reason are no less right in their opinion than you are in yours. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/5/2009 3:58:46 PM | | For one thing our U.S. Constitution does not support socialism, govt run health care or hundreds of programs and departments in place. Either something is Constitutional or not, PERIOD end of story. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/5/2009 4:08:04 PM | Americans and the ruddy constitution, does everything have to be argued on the thing?
A health insurance system isnt socialism, no matter how much reds under the bed paranoia there is.
Cheers
F.P. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/5/2009 4:49:54 PM |
Americans and the ruddy constitution, does everything have to be argued on the thing?
At least we have one! Our country was founded on it. There are some great things about socialism as there are capitalism. The Pilgrims tried socialism the first years but it didn't work because of people being lazy compared to the hard workers. They had to or die. Why should I bust my ass and work hard just to have the government give away my hard work to a lazy bumm? Get real. Just to buy votes. I have busted my ass all my life to get what I have. I will be damned if I give it up to some free loader. I contribute to charities all year long. I buy food and give it to the soup kitchens I also give too children hospitals along with numerous other charities. Hopefully one day if I need it I will get some back. It's called compassion. That is what is lost in our lives.
I do not object to some social programs. I think everyone should have affordable health care. But why should it be free? At the same time you should not have to file bankruptcy if you get sick.
If all the liberals want health care free then why don't you give all your money and all of Hollywoods money and leave mine alone. Maybe Michael Moore and Bill Maher should give all their money for it. They make millions off of you and laugh about it.
It sure is funny how socialism is this beautiful thing but are losing in elections all over the world. I even hear how Canada is trying to privatize some health care cause its going broke. I live in Florida and have a RV. When all the Canadians come down here for the winter they have to pay thousands of dollars in insurance if they get sick down here. I have even been told by some of my great Canuck friends that they might even fly you back for treatment there. They are teaching me about how to know Hockey and I teach them about American Football.
I heard today some doctors went to Germany to find out about their health care system which does not sound to socialistic. Sounds like Insurance companies are not for profit. Maybe there is an answer there.
But back to the topic. Why are Americans so fearful of socialism? Easy Its called FREEDOM and LIBERTY. Free to make my own choice and to have what I work hard for. We fought just about every major nation that tried to take it away from us and guess what we are still here. Why do people want to come to our country? FREEDOM and a better way of life. To make their own choices.
From an American Patriot and proud of it. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 10/7/2009 4:34:37 PM | I live in uk have been reading your debate , we pay what is called national insurence which is deduced of our wages ,by employer , its not a fixed amount it is earnings related the more you earn the more you pay , self employed people have to pay their's directly to the goverment department ,we also then have our tax's deducted of our wages ,There are private health schemes eg, bupa and private dentists ,but if you decide to opt for them you still have to pay your national insurence as well ,Thats why people over here do not join the private ones ,
All state schools are free ,but that is paid for out of taxs .
what benfit 's do we get from our national insurence ,a basic pension when one reach,s retirement age ,free dental care till one is 16 or pregnant ,free prescriptions ,free hospital treatment ,and free family doctor ,In actual fact if you need an operation its the same doctor on the national health as would do it in the private sector ,
Free maternity care and delivery and paid maternity leave of 3 months ,£500 pound a child to be put in bank in the childs name .and a maternity grant towards things you need for baby every body gets this regardless if they are rich or poor , for every child up to 16 you get £10 per week child allowence again regardless of income
The down side is people who do not want to work get a minimum Of £135 per week benefits from the state free rent or interest paid on their house loans free rates and water rates ,and gas and electric cheaper ,they also if they are low income and working get family income support ,money for child care if they are going back to university or work .free school uniform and free school dinners ,
most of people who work had feel conned that we are keeping people who do not want to work ,or who are fiddling the system and belive me lots are ,claiming they are to ill to work or they keep on having children so they do not have to go back out to work ,
here is an example in the daily mail today a couple have defraunded the system to the tune £5500,between 2000 and 2007 in housing benefits ,income support and council tax benefits ,by failing to declare they were living together and that he was working as a courier driver ,tey have been ordered to pay it back as £12 a week and a suspended sentance of 12 months as the judge said it would not help by sending them to prison as they have 6 children between them ,this it just one example of the welfare state ,i for one totally agree that the socialist system has ruined the uk ,In fact a new study from the centre for econmic performance has just published a report for the uk that the work ethic that inspired successive generations has ebbed away in the face of the welfare state . | |
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