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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist? Posted: 10/7/2009 5:07:42 PM |
No - my explanation should have made it clear I'm not talking about social policies, but economic ones. When you tax a person's money away from them, you are taking away their economic liberty. roflmao
That is not even close to what you posted, you cannot 'spin' it away that easily.
I will requote the statement.
Economically and to me, morally, capitalism is simply superior to socialism. Let me explain why I think capitalism is better, from a moral perspective. I have a number of personal values - smoking is bad, cheating is bad, et cetera. These are all things I will go through my life without doing and I would prefer if other people didn't either. Do I think there should be laws against this? Unless there is direct damage done or contractual violations, no, I don't think there should be. Unless a third party is unduly harmed, it is my belief that a person should exercise his/her set of morals and preferences and do whatever he/she likes with his/her resources and self. This does NOT say EVEN ONE THING about taxing "a person's money away". It says NOTHING about "sin taxes" or any other kind of tax.
What it VERY CLEARLY does say is that a person's non-harmful moral choices and preferences should not be made illegal, that these are personal matters, not public.
Taxing something does not make it illegal and it does not deny one the 'right' to choose to allocate one's resources to it.
Your statement clearly speaks of social policy as it relates to lawful/unlawful behaviour, not taxation, and this has nothing to do with capitalism vs. socialism. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist? Posted: 10/7/2009 10:07:18 PM | | Good question. I have been a socialist most of my adult life. The thing that always bugs me is the people who really give me a hard time, the ones who denounce me and everything I supposedly stand for, never, EVER ask me a question. Not once. Mind you, most of these anti-socialist zealots couldn't write a coherent paragraph about socialism or name three prominant American socialists off the tops of their heads. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist? Posted: 10/7/2009 10:30:27 PM |
This does NOT say EVEN ONE THING about taxing "a person's money away". It says NOTHING about "sin taxes" or any other kind of tax.
What it VERY CLEARLY does say is that a person's non-harmful moral choices and preferences should not be made illegal, that these are personal matters, not public.
Taxing something does not make it illegal and it does not deny one the 'right' to choose to allocate one's resources to it.
Your statement clearly speaks of social policy as it relates to lawful/unlawful behaviour, not taxation, and this has nothing to do with capitalism vs. socialism. It's all a big, black box to you, isn't it?
I pay capital-gains tax and sometimes inheritance and income-tax. That money goes to pay for something. On the other side of the coin, "clean needle injection" sites, welfare for individuals and other sorts of social programs are paid for using public funding. Public funding is tax $.
Do you not understand how this translates to my resources being taken from me to support causes I don't support, leaving me with less resources to support things I want to support? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist? Posted: 10/8/2009 8:04:17 AM |
as a nation, that everything revolves around capitalism and greed.
This sums up the OP's presentation in a nut shell on this entire issue. It is sad but true.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer as time marches on.  | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist? Posted: 10/8/2009 3:39:54 PM | Depends what Americans
The older ones love the socialist medical benefits they get.....but still rail against Obama because they don't know what they have.
The uninformed (usually Fox news people) get there marching orders from the likes of Coulter, Rush, O'reilly, Palin, Bachman and Hannity to name a few and these people have purposely scared the hell out their uneducated base into believing one lie after another...
The financial people love socialism...after all "the people" bailed them out to the tune of close to a trillion dollars.... | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist? Posted: 10/8/2009 4:04:21 PM | This does NOT say EVEN ONE THING about taxing "a person's money away". It says NOTHING about "sin taxes" or any other kind of tax.
What it VERY CLEARLY does say is that a person's non-harmful moral choices and preferences should not be made illegal, that these are personal matters, not public.
Taxing something does not make it illegal and it does not deny one the 'right' to choose to allocate one's resources to it.
Your statement clearly speaks of social policy as it relates to lawful/unlawful behaviour, not taxation, and this has nothing to do with capitalism vs. socialism. It's all a big, black box to you, isn't it? I pay capital-gains tax and sometimes inheritance and income-tax. That money goes to pay for something. On the other side of the coin, "clean needle injection" sites, welfare for individuals and other sorts of social programs are paid for using public funding. Public funding is tax $. Do you not understand how this translates to my resources being taken from me to support causes I don't support, leaving me with less resources to support things I want to support? Keep trying.
Again... That's NOT what you said...
You said this...
Economically and to me, morally, capitalism is simply superior to socialism. Let me explain why I think capitalism is better, from a moral perspective. I have a number of personal values - smoking is bad, cheating is bad, et cetera. These are all things I will go through my life without doing and I would prefer if other people didn't either. Do I think there should be laws against this? Unless there is direct damage done or contractual violations, no, I don't think there should be. Unless a third party is unduly harmed, it is my belief that a person should exercise his/her set of morals and preferences and do whatever he/she likes with his/her resources and self. Again... There is NOT ONE mention of taxes or taxation in this... NOT ONE!
You discuss whether or not such things should be ILLEGAL... and THAT'S IT... Nothing about taxes or taxation.
Since you seem hell-bent on "words meaning just exactly what you choose them to mean" then please SHOW us where that quote speaks of ANYTHING other than legality/illegality.
Please... Show us... because I'm just 'dieing' to find out how any of that means something other than what the words actually say. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist? Posted: 10/8/2009 4:52:24 PM | Again... There is NOT ONE mention of taxes or taxation in this... NOT ONE!
You discuss whether or not such things should be ILLEGAL... and THAT'S IT... Nothing about taxes or taxation.
Since you seem hell-bent on "words meaning just exactly what you choose them to mean" then please SHOW us where that quote speaks of ANYTHING other than legality/illegality.
Please... Show us... because I'm just 'dieing' to find out how any of that means something other than what the words actually say.
I say it right here:
"it is my belief that a person should exercise his/her set of morals and preferences and do whatever he/she likes with his/her resources and self."
I don't make the distinction between legal and economic liberty. I didn't think I had to - so while it may not be immediately obvious, it's there. I really don't know what you thought I meant by resources if you didn't think I meant wealth/assets. It goes without saying that the most common way this happens is taxation. What else could I have meant contextually? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist? Posted: 10/8/2009 5:31:47 PM | I don't make the distinction between legal and economic liberty. I didn't think I had to - so while it may not be immediately obvious, it's there. I really don't know what you thought I meant by resources if you didn't think I meant wealth/assets. It goes without saying that the most common way this happens is taxation. What else could I have meant contextually? Contextually? Do you mean THIS "contextually"?
Let me explain why I think capitalism is better, from a moral perspective. I have a number of personal values - smoking is bad, cheating is bad, et cetera. These are all things I will go through my life without doing and I would prefer if other people didn't either. Do I think there should be laws against this? Unless there is direct damage done or contractual violations, no, I don't think there should be. Unless a third party is unduly harmed, it is my belief that a person should exercise his/her set of morals and preferences and do whatever he/she likes with his/her resources and self.. THAT is the context in which you made the statement (which is only a PART of the FINAL sentence, not even the full sentence)...
"it is my belief that a person should exercise his/her set of morals and preferences and do whatever he/she likes with his/her resources and self." Contextually (that is within the context of the ORIGINAL statement, not simply the fragment you chose to restate) that sentence, by ALL applicable rules of English grammer and construction, means it should not be ILLEGAL to "do whatever he/she likes with his/her resources and self". It DOES NOT say squat about being taxed or having those taxes disbursed in a manner you don't approve of.
Try as you might, words will not mean "just exactly what you choose them to mean, nothing more, nothing less", they mean what they mean and within the context you stated them they DO NOT mean what you are asserting they mean. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist? Posted: 10/8/2009 6:02:49 PM | And Norway was just voted the best country in the world in which to live. Canada has won this many times but finished 4th this time around. The USA was 13th I believe.
Socialism does not equal "bad."
Yes, if you get a comprehensive healthcare program you will pay more taxes but welcome to the civilized world USA! | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist? Posted: 10/8/2009 10:01:10 PM | Contextually (that is within the context of the ORIGINAL statement, not simply the fragment you chose to restate) that sentence, by ALL applicable rules of English grammer and construction, means it should not be ILLEGAL to "do whatever he/she likes with his/her resources and self". It DOES NOT say squat about being taxed or having those taxes disbursed in a manner you don't approve of.
Try as you might, words will not mean "just exactly what you choose them to mean, nothing more, nothing less", they mean what they mean and within the context you stated them they DO NOT mean what you are asserting they mean. Spending policies and social programs (or the creation of an autonomous body to handle such things) are passed through (or rejected) as laws.
Even ignoring that, what do you think I meant by a person having control over his/her resources?
EDIT: The forum won't let me respond, but what do you take "a person's resources" to mean? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist? Posted: 10/8/2009 10:09:57 PM | Spending policies and social programs (or the creation of an autonomous body to handle such things) are passed through (or rejected) as laws. That still does not make doing "whatever he/she likes with his/her resources and self" illegal. The word games still will not work, it takes a certain 'knack', which is absent in this.
Even ignoring that, what do you think I meant by a person having control over his/her resources? Exactly what you said...
Economically and to me, morally, capitalism is simply superior to socialism. Let me explain why I think capitalism is better, from a moral perspective. I have a number of personal values - smoking is bad, cheating is bad, et cetera. These are all things I will go through my life without doing and I would prefer if other people didn't either. Do I think there should be laws against this? Unless there is direct damage done or contractual violations, no, I don't think there should be. Unless a third party is unduly harmed, it is my belief that a person should exercise his/her set of morals and preferences and do whatever he/she likes with his/her resources and self. The meaning of the statement, and the context, is what it is, spinning it won't change that. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist? Posted: 10/9/2009 10:50:51 AM | "Competition breed poverty. Cooperation builds Nations. Trust fools and evil men to tell you otherwise." - RSC
Sums it all up pretty well.
Politicians know it is easier to sell someone to hate then someone to love. So they give the masses an enemy, and milk it. People become blind with the hatred, and thus can be told to believe pretty much anything. It has worked in the USA for the past sixty years so why would they stop using that forumula now?
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