| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 4:56:59 PM | Pure Socialism is wonderful! But it's idealistic. Therefore, not practical.
So, socialism get "interpreted" and converted and becomes something altogether different.
Maybe the current health care reform plan isn't the best to be had. But to a U.S. citizen that doesn't have health insurance because they're denied due to a recurring condition.......
Something is better than nothing. And it's also a good start.
I don't se the government stepping in as a negative sign that they're taking over.
Rather, I see it as an opportunity to show that there's a profitable market out there being untapped that could be good for BOTH business and the people!
In other words, I think it'll provoke the insurance industry to open up affordable health coverage plans for people that don't currently have it.
I can't help but think that health coverage would be cheaper AND profitable if EVERYONE had it!
And by EVERYONE, I mean those whom have a legal right to be here...........like U.S. Citizens. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 5:46:21 PM | Most people are not even aware that they are not required to have a Social Security Number.
Interesting... I did not know that...
Still, I'm not bothered by that revelation as much as this one:
Most people are not even aware that they are not required to file a Form 1040... | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 6:55:49 PM | sorry but i just don't get it.
what is so bad about paying slightly higher taxes in exchange for "free" healthcare?
whouldn't you feel better knowing that you wouldn't have to sell your house or declare bankrupcy just because you had a heart attack or cancer?
wouldn't you feel better knowing that if you broke your leg you wouldn't have to sell your oldest child?
I'm not a fan of Michel "Bin Laden" Moore but his movie Sicko makes you think and brings up some good points.
I believe that there should be an option for private healthcare but i believe that there should be a government healthcare program available to everyone too. Can the two co exist?
Seriously people I live in Canada i like knowing that i can go to the hospital or doctor without having to worry about the cost. And even in Canada the rich do get served first ... are you going to make a pro athelete wait for an MRI? no. Will someone with the money for a procedure wait in line? no they will opt for private healthcare ... sure they might go somewhere else and pay for it but isn't that the same as private healthcare?
Though i am disgusted by Obama in general i do think that the majority of the population would benefit from a "free" healthcare system. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 7:20:28 PM | | the problem with free healthcare is in jax fla there is shands hospital, wait 3 hours just to be checked in, wait 4 to get stitches after being shot by some lunatic for comin into his turf...then there are the got a cold/stubbed toe/bored or mad at your grown kids people going to the ER just to get attention tying up real emergencies because the gov will pay for it. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 9:06:27 PM | hmm, you may not be required by law to have an SSN
but you will find many doors closed to you ~
places that can't employ you or won't employ you.
there will be some business you just can't conduct ~
You are left out out in the cold ~ with a cash & carry format.
which I personally like ~ but your opportunities substantially limited.
Dance | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 9:44:31 PM |
the problem with free healthcare is in jax fla there is shands hospital, wait 3 hours just to be checked in, wait 4 to get stitches after being shot by some lunatic for comin into his turf...then there are the got a cold/stubbed toe/bored or mad at your grown kids people going to the ER just to get attention tying up real emergencies because the gov will pay for it
I went to St Vincents (not for profit, but isn't as bad as Shands) once to get stitches on my chin.Its wasn't all that busy and it was probably 7 hours just to get into a room and another couple to actually be seen. Another time I was in a car accident and I went to Baptist (for profit)to get Xrayed. Due to it being a simple procedure, they "fasttracked" me. I was in and out in under 2hrs. Granted my Xrays came back fine, but that still beats the times just to be seen elsewhere. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 9:44:49 PM | I don't think it's any surprise that the majority of voters aren't politically qualified. The majority of those they give voting preferences to aren't really politically qualified.
Their voting sentiments are a trend of propaganda and superficial perceptions with no attempt at independent research.
This would follow the tendency of unqualified individuals to tap their feet and demand authority as a sense of personal empowerment, which is supposed to be attained by actual legwork.
In other words most people with an aversion to socialist overtones and inferrences often need to be told what one is, and have no idea what it means. Dress child labour into more middle class freedoms and they'll fight for it tooth and nail.
By the way collectivisation is the definition of communism, not socialism. Socialism is merely a centralised national economic administration, primarily for the purposes of subsidised goods and services. Then what you do is attach a bend of social policy to it. Authoritarian assembly for Commonwealth, collectivisation for Communism, senatorial representation for the French system or militaristic dictatorship for Fascism. Actual governing and social policy could be as creative as the many flavours of democracy which exist. French and Commonwealth systems are democratic for example, whilst communism considers itself extreme democratic.
Socialism is really kind of different from Marxism, which is more political than economic, as it seeks intentionally to manipulate political representation via economics.
The US aversions to socialism are really geared towards the problems of Marxism, which are indeed valid. But socialism need not go anywhere near it. The eventuation of Marxism in practise are anarchy followed by totalitarianism, certainly, but this is not the course of socialist economic themes where government is maintained independent.
The social welfare and wealth distribution value of socialist policies cannot be overlooked.
Generally the biggest argument against is greedily accepted promises of extreme income potential which are virtually impossible to see realised anyway. But the fact many have been conditioned to believe by US mass media marketing that even though you earn 25K pa painting houses, if you came up with a really good poem you're going to get hit on the head by a billion dollars falling from the sky and latest Hollywood hotty will want to marry you, keeps thousands of homeless people dying frozen and lonely every day and any attempt to rectify the situation inaccurately branded reds under the bed. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 11:55:36 PM | Obama's Health Reform Plan is a proposal , it is not a final bill, it is not written in stone.
There will be further tweaking in Congress before a final bill is submitted. Ideally, I hope to see a bi-partisan bill submitted to the President for signature. This going to take some concessions from "both sides of the aisle".
The signed bill( if it gets that far) will then take until 2013 for full implementation.
Therefore everyone, do not panic, Health Care Reform does not mean that changes are going to take place tomorrow!!!
There are many false statements and misconceptions about Obama's plan.
I would advise you to check with FactCheck.com . This website researches FACTS AND MYTHS on OBAMA'S HEALTH CARE PLAN.
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/seven-falsehoods-about-health-care/
Future falsehoods and myths surely will happen. That is why we all should regularly check the website to keep ourselves current on this. Isn't better to base our opinions on fact rather than falsehoods? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 12:34:00 AM | It souunds like quite a few folks here would like a better way of running things.........
Maybe this would suit them best....
For every decision in the country, vote and include a monetary donation for that vote, to be used by whatever minimum bureaucracy exists or to fund the outcome of the decision being voted on. The value of the donation becomes the number of votes you are entitled to make for that decision. If insufficient funds were donated to cover the cost of any decision, then there would be another vote to garner more funds. Wouldn't that be a wonderful application of the capitalist ideal?
How many votes would YOU get? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 1:02:59 AM | that is what taxes are for...you pay them and its supposed to go to infrastructure but it somehow gets inot politicans pockets instead...we need government reform before healthcare reform. 1776 was only 233 years ago and ole thomas jefferson had good points that ring ever so true, however with greedy crooked politicians it wont happen without a revolt...ALL of them dem and rep need to go | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 2:30:03 AM | ]
that is what taxes are for But taxes are a nasty, socialist thing. Paying for votes means putting your money where your mouth is and you wouldn't have to pay taxes. And if you really wanted to get something done, you'd have to stump up for it - take some responsibility for your votes.
ALL of them dem and rep need to go And leave things as they are right now - or should they be replaced with something different? Who's gonna run things?
The internet gives us a great opportunity for electronic anarchy. Log in to check on the votes for the day, vote and send a PayPal payment - what could be easier? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 4:35:28 AM | | Before the fear and hate campaign against Muslims, Arabs and Persians there was a fear and hate campaign against socialists and communists. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 4:40:13 AM | I understand where you are wanting to go with this unqualified voter thing ~ but I sure don't like the sound of it.
Dance | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 5:23:07 AM | Lets debate the merits of socialism over capitalism with respect to US health care...
false dichotomy. there are a whole lot of other issues going on with regard to US healthcare than just an economic model that says how it's going to get paid for. meanwhile, i've got this ingrown toenail thingy so can you please send me $350 so i can get that taken care of? because i guess you believe in socialism, right? at least when it comes to my ingrown toenail, riiightt??? what's yours is mine! i'll be waiting by the mailbox! don't like that? oh, okay, i'll send you the bill and you can spit it up between you and 10 of your best socialist buddies. because in essence that's exactly what you're asking for.
i remember when HMOs were invented. then we had all the spin-offs... PPOs being the main variation. these were supposed to be the holy fvcking grail of health care.... NOT. yes i understand the typical american model of catastrophic illness which is you go broke paying for your problem, lose your job and your insurance, and then go to straight medicaid.
look i don't know what the solution is because we aren't there yet. it starts with a 100% tax deduction for all healthcare related expenses. guess what, food, clothing and shelter are healthcare related because without them you're a naked bum starving in a box. and hey i'm feeling pretty generous so i'd make it 200%. [don't even get me started on taxes.] it involves a framework that gives people more choice, not less, and also makes them responsible for their own health. it involves a REAL healthcare paradigm, not a disease paradigm, that teaches people how to care for their health proactively instead of throwing pharmaceutical cocktails at them when they inevitably become broken down after a lifetime of eating cheese curls and drinking coke and then making the rest of the nation chip in out of their own pockets to pay for your stupidity. and it also involves some level of deregulation (i.e., the same level of coverage for seeing a nurse practitioner instead of a full-blown MD for minor ailments). but i can tell you what the solution is NOT... it's not a bunch of centrist politicians with NO business experience and NO knowledge of medicine running around "reinventing" shit and controlling what amounts to something like 15% of the economy. there is no "one size fits all" solution because everyone's health care needs are different. and i am not responsible for your chemotherapy.
< end of rant > | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 6:39:15 AM | Canadian hospitals aren't that bad.
I broke my foot in 4 places - 3 hours in the hospital from the time i went in the door till the time i was headed home after x-rays and casting.
cut the top of my finger off by accident - 4 hours before i was on my way home with my finger reattached.
suspected appendicitis - 1 hour in one hospital then i was transferred to a larger hospital - 6 hours in the larger hospital before i was on my way home with meds for kidney stones.
17 stitches and 6 staples to the head - 2 hours before i went home.
this was all in a government run hospital. i think those wait times are reasonable. Now finding a family doctor that's the hard one. I'm a generally healthy 20 something and i was wait listed for a family doctor for almost 2 years after my old doctor retired. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 6:59:09 AM | Lets debate the merits of socialism over capitalism with respect to US health care...
false dichotomy. there are a whole lot of other issues going on with regard to US healthcare than just an economic model that says how it's going to get paid for. meanwhile, i've got this ingrown toe nail thingy so can you please send me $350 so i can get that taken care of? because i guess you believe in socialism, right? at least when it comes to my ingrown toe nail, right??? what's yours is mine! i'll be waiting by the mailbox! don't like that? oh, okay, i'll send you the bill and you can spit it up between you and 10 of your best socialist buddies. because in essence that's exactly what you're asking for.
LOL! ~ and what you suggest is just about the same thing as Group Insurance rates, you have only cut out the middleman.
The Commie scare runs deep ~ Still ! here is America, land of the Free and home of the Brave.
It seems, we have a lot of mislabeling going on in this nation today, it's "Law" , the contents shall be on the label! ~ So whatever the label says , we believe. Makes perfect sense to me!
Medicare, Medicad has seemed to sneaked up on us I suppose. ~ It's widely accepted for the most part. Senior's ( they tell me that I'm one ) would find life very difficult without it. ~ You want to start a fight? Start talking about downsizing these programs.
This national health care proposal is very problematic for many reasons.
How is it going to fit in with what people have already accepted ~these other national socialist programs? ~ That's been required to be propping up every 10 years or so, as both cost and demands change? ~
And who! really does qualify? And is this really the job of government? What really is government responsibility? If you say it government job to secure the peace and create a climate that permits free enterprise. I'd ask. "Has it done that job well? " Or has is favored some and burden others in our pursuits of "happiness" ?
That you can go get yourself 3 jobs today and still not be able to take care of the basic needs of a family of four , I find discerning. How did that happen? ~
That discretionary spending isn't discretionary anymore and savings all but non-existance, I too find this discerning. I've lived that way the last 30 years, on my march to 60. ~ They say, I can get senior coffee for 15 cent at Mc Donalds now.
I say, I want to pay what everyone else pays. I guess my mind refuses to be old, I will not accept this.
I am a contractor, on occassion a customer will say to me , "Hey remember! I'm on a fixed income " as I write up the bill. ~ Now , what does that mean? ~ I'm on no income, zero , nothing unless I work for it. And then I have to work to keep both people and a system for screwing me out of a fair days work. ~ The city is on my ass, the state is only my ass, the insurance company is on my ass, the Fed is on my ass, ~ the customer is on my ass. And I'm suppose to give you a break because your "old"?
I have aging parents, they were not always so. Dad is dieing, little by little ,day by day, just wilting away before my eyes, like a snowman on a Sunny January day in north Texas.
But like dad has said on ocassions , getting old is what happens if you are lucky. He's been lucky. I fixed him breaskfast this morning, mother no longer up it it. I wish I could do more and I do when I see a need.
Life is full of reality checks, no matter your age.
I 'm grateful for any lovers smile or an achievements that I might have made today ~
I'm grateful that there are people in this world that understand things better then I and their eyes not clouded by self-serving interest. It my hope that we have some people like that in high places of government that might guide us through these difficult times we all face today.
Ideology is just a label,a name ~ it being only as good as the people that practice it.
Dance | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 7:43:07 AM | If you say it government job to secure the peace and create a climate that permits free enterprise. I'd ask. "Has it done that job well?
nope, it has only succeeding in making itself bigger & more bloated and draconian and corrupt and wasteful, and creating more and more regulations in the name of all those special interests with the deepest pockets and most well-connected lobbyists, while paying lip service to the fundamentals of what it should really be doing. and yet, people keep asking for more and more federal government, as if that were an actual solution to anything. who's lauging now.
what you suggest is just about the same thing as Group Insurance rates, you have only cut out the middleman.
nothing wrong with cutting out the middleman. it's not the solution but it's a damn good start.
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 10:05:59 AM | I laugh for you attack socialism ~ yet it's all around you yet you fail to see it. ~
It takes a mixture of both ~ a blend ~ the problems occur with the mix is too rich.
We'd not have a road system if it wasn't for collective efforts, NASA would not be.
Big projects require a collective effort. ~
We cannot exist on a completely "No Salt" diet. ~ There's got to be some.
You can cut out middlemen ~ and perhaps you should if they don't earn their cut. But this does no make them go away.
The magic word is "value" ~ it need to be inline with the realities.
If health care value has increased beyond 60% of peoples ability to pay ~ what's insurance to do with it? ~ Banter for concessions for volume? ~ Who sets these "values" ~ the cost to create it should be reflected in final cost. ~ Insurance Companies are high rolling gamblers that we support in some way.
These gambles seem to be dictating value. ~ Is that the way it should be?
Forgive me for laughing ~ but we seem to swallow camels and gag on nats often and throw loose labels around.
Dance | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 10:15:07 AM |
Most people are not even aware that they are not required to file a Form 1040...
I don't think that's right. That's what Wesley Snipes got 3 years for not doing. He didn't get sentenced for not paying his taxes, just not filing tax returns.
Here's my opinion of these "socialist" agendas being put on the table now... the GOP couldn't, wouldn't, and didn't do anything when it was their chance. THEY have given us this chance for so-called Socialistic policies with THEIR FAILURES. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 10:51:15 AM | Because, we Americans are the dumbest bunch of people on the face of the Earth !
We get our asses kicked every day.
We enjoy getting our asses kicked.
We are like the dog, who has had it's ass kicked every day and the one day it doesn't get it's ass kicked it looks around and asks, " Hey, somebody owes me an ass kick'n " !
" Thank you sir, may I have another ".
This country could be a " Garden of Eden " if we wanted it to be.
But NO ! We can't be that smart.
We are vain, stupid, lazy, and we revel in our ignorance.
And, we hate anybody who points that out to us.
We Americans never do anything to improve anything until a disaster happens.
We proved that with Pearl Harbor, with Viet Nam, and with 9/11.
At least Bin Laden wants to kill us and admits to it.
He doesn't care to rip us off forever, like the corporations do, every damn day. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 11:18:01 AM | I understand your anger and your "over the top" statements and we must admit we've done a poor job in 43"s selection. ~ I'd disagree that 9-11 woke us up but more like made us blind with anger. ~
Instead of The President asking ~ CIA , FBI and Pentagon Brass why is this plane sticking out of my Pentagon and a few heads rolling ~ He, with the will of the people appointed more ineffective government "Home Land Security" to do the job other's didn't! Was there a shakeup in Immigration? There should should have been.
So yes ~ American's are indeed to blame ~ So let's open both our eyes and ears and hear all the facts ~ even if you don't like them very much. Accept you own personal role in this debacle and let's move forward.
Next!
dance | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 12:49:56 PM | | All emergency rooms take time, but a great deal of the time they are loaded with minor ailments, because the individuals have no money nor insurance to go to a physican and are forced to go where they can get treated - the emergency room! | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/17/2009 12:54:48 PM | | Americans aren't necessarily "anti-socialist;" they've just been conditioned to accept simple definitions and look for bogeymen, rather than doing their due diligence on any given subject...why else would so many Americans just blindly accept the right-wing spin that there are going to be "death panels?" This is the United States of America, for cryin' out loud! Honestly, if enough scare-mongers told enough of us that "red roses" actually meant a smoking pile of excrement-over and over, loudly and frighteningly- the rest of the world would start wondering why Americans hate pretty, sweet-smelling flowers so much... | |
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