granz
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Joined: 6/22/2009
Msg: 101 | |
| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/19/2009 9:46:07 PM | | Why are Americans anti-anything? Because propaganda arms intravenously feed them opinions through their dependence on media. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/19/2009 10:55:44 PM |
Keep up the good work on criticizing Americans' intelligence You mean, like, yours?
a Opposition. Pass fifth grade grammar much?
"Due Diligence"? You know, the concept that people would bother to get enough facts to form an intelligent opinion, rather than just having whatever hysterical, knee-jerk reaction they're encouraged to have, by whichever pundit is making the loudest and scariest noises?
People have read the Healthcare Bill What does the Healthcare Bill have to do with the subject of this thread? It's about why Americans perceive "Socialism" to automatically be bad, and my comment is in response to that; my reference to "death panels" is to provide an example.
Scare mongers?: who's using Global Warming tactics thus we need to be "green" or we're doomed? And if anyone accepts this -or the opposite position, as well- without first looking up the facts, they'll get my criticism -for whatever that's worth. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 10:17:48 AM | First of all, the idea of socializm is against the US constitution. Everything that has been socialized in the US is unconstitutional and a theft of our liberties. Socialism is an ant-american philosophy.
Second there are many socialized nations in the world.
third no one is being held in America against thier will. If the grass is greener in a socialist state, knock your self out and move there.
Our founders gifted us with a free nation. we need to keep it free. We need to undo the amounts of socialism that has already been afflicted on the populace. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 10:41:02 AM |
First of all, the idea of socializm is against the US constitution. Everything that has been socialized in the US is unconstitutional and a theft of our liberties. Socialism is an ant-american philosophy.
Second there are many socialized nations in the world.
third no one is being held in America against thier will. If the grass is greener in a socialist state, knock your self out and move there.
Our founders gifted us with a free nation. we need to keep it free. We need to undo the amounts of socialism that has already been afflicted on the populace.
People throw the word "unconstitutional" around a lot, most often when their claim has no constitutional bearing. If you are going to make an assertion that socialized programs are unconstitutional, please provide your evidence.
Second, are you claiming that you will give up law enforcement, medical programs for the elderly, retirement and disabled assistance, refuse and sewage services, transit maintanence and road repair, and educational programs because they are socialist? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 12:23:37 PM | I thought the only true socialist countries left were Cuba, North Korea and one or 2 ex soviet repuplics, Turkmenistan and the like.
Every western country is a mixed market economy.
And they work well for the most part.
The scare mongering is getting a bit much.
Cheers.
F.P. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 1:26:13 PM | Cuba, North Korea, and one or 2 ex Soviet Republics, aren't actually socialist at all IMO. Or they're socialist 'in name only'. They just claim it, that's all. They're actually totalitarian police states in varying degrees (with North Korea coming in at about first place out of all of them easily, as far as oppression and all-around weirdness). North Korea's a dynastic succession, something which was never part of true Marxist socialism. They operate under something called "juche". It's the North Korean version of Stalinist 'communism', basically; it indicates autarky and nationalism (non-Marxist notions), combined with the oppressive centralized one-party (well there are 2 but one's a fake) system where the ruling leader is looked upon as something halfway between a mortal and a living god who is divinely ordained to rule the country (also not a very Marxist socialist concept). 'Songun' indicates militarism, the power of the military, and constant (evidently paranoid) preparation for war.
China and Vietnam are communist in name only by now also, really, using something more like a mixed-market type system with certain privatized sectors , etc. They only retain certain aspects of their communism. Privatization and mixed-market simply works better, it's been proven time and again. The 'ideal' (IMO) may be something like what they have in Scandinavia; social-democracy basically....slightly to the left of where most of today's mainstream American Democrats are at.
But what ended up passing as communism (I say passing as because true communism / true socialism has never existed) always ended up with the police state and dictatorial control by either one man or one small group of elites....just like 'Animal Farm',, or '1984'...
http://www.songunpoliticsstudygroup.org/ <---------John Paul Cupp....leader of the pro-North Korean 'American Songun' group....  | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 1:31:14 PM | If you would actually read the Constitution you would find that the central government was given limited powers. manufactering social programs (no matter how well intentioned) is beyond the scope of the powers given to the central government. The Constitution outlines a union of soverign states that are equal with the central government. Only certain powers were delegated to the central government, all other powers were kept with the states. This was to keep a central government from becoming overbearing.
Although Lincoln's illegal war expanded the federal governments powers, it was done by violating the Constitution. The new deal and the great society also unconstitutionally expanded the federal government, interfering with our liberties and ability to progress ever since. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 1:53:21 PM |
Why does Obama get over 30 death threats a day, while our Prime Minister gets one every few months?
We're a much more interesting country. More stuff happens here.
I keed! I keed! ......well, sort of.
I'm just curious, though. Why is it that you seem to think that capitalism is all about greed? Perhaps some people in this country prefer to work for what they have rather than have Big Brother take care of everything for them. Perhaps we have this pesky thing called sense of accomplishment that we like to enjoy. I understand wanting to help and take care of people with nothing, but I don't quite understand how you can really justify taking money out of somebody's pocket who has busted their tail (often over a long period of time) to acquire it only to distribute it among people who didn't work as hard under the guise of, "hey, it's better for everybody." It's not better for the person who got the rewards for all their hard work taken away. To accuse someone in that position of being greedy for wanting to enjoy what they've worked for rather than giving it away to people who didn't put in the same blood, sweat, and tears is the ultimate act of greed. So in that sense, socialism is a lot greedier than capitalism. Kind of ironic, huh? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 1:54:37 PM | You became the most powerful country in the world.
If thats not progressing what is?
Seccesion time I think.
Let the 2 coasts join Canada.
The rest can be Jesus Land like in that pic.
Cheers
F.P. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 3:00:59 PM | Due to rampant greed, selfishness and individualism.
Right wing nuts describe taxation as "theft".
That will be the same theft conducted by the European Empires and the Europeans who stole America from the Native Americans then ? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 6:11:28 PM |
If you would actually read the Constitution you would find that the central government was given limited powers. manufactering social programs (no matter how well intentioned) is beyond the scope of the powers given to the central government. The Constitution outlines a union of soverign states that are equal with the central government. Only certain powers were delegated to the central government, all other powers were kept with the states. This was to keep a central government from becoming overbearing.
Although Lincoln's illegal war expanded the federal governments powers, it was done by violating the Constitution. The new deal and the great society also unconstitutionally expanded the federal government, interfering with our liberties and ability to progress ever since.
Oh lordy...rebel pride. If you cracked open a history book you would realize that "illegal war" was spurred on after it was determined that states did not have the right to secede, and that the southern states were therefore in a state of rebellion. It is only natural for a government to put down a rebellion. Further more the Federal government was well within their power to raise an army under those terms as said power is granted via the Insurrection Act of 1807.
As for "limited central powers", if you studied constitutional history, or actually read the constitution, you would understand that a socialist program such as Healthcare is well within the enumerated powers granted to the Federal government laid out in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 of the United States Constitution; the Taxing and Spending Clause.
Its precise text reads as follows, "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States" | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 6:38:56 PM | If you're going to be ill and homeless, would you rather be in America or Africa or even Asia?
Did Europe and Canada just disappear from the world map???
If I had to be sick and homeless, I would prefer to be in Canada or in some countries in Europe.
You became the most powerful country in the world.
If thats not progressing what is? . Is this some kind of joke???? Progressive, yeah, right, maybe now that you have a decent person on board of the sinking ship........It's never too late. He will do great. You may be saved. There is still hope!
To accuse someone in that position of being greedy for wanting to enjoy what they've worked for rather than giving it away to people who didn't put in the same blood, sweat, and tears is the ultimate act of greed. Ok, not greedy, just selfish, how's that?
Sure your theory would make sense if we were all born equal, which is not reality, my dear......... | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 9:25:41 PM | I'm with you peacethx from canada. i think the americans are just greedy and greed works for them.
sorry guys, its just that ...well ...as a culture you sure seem that way. I must confess as individuals you guys seem decent. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/20/2009 11:34:57 PM | Social Security was a great idea when first adopted and instituted. The Social Security fund grew nice and fat because everyone was paying into it.
It wasn't until later, greedy government used the Social Security Fund to finance other social "welfare" programs and general funds, that it began to go downhill.
Governments misuse of government "social" programs is what causes our distrust.
Sure, plenty of people don't know what "socialism" is really. And most people are basically sheep, following what appears to be a good shepherd.
I think that some equate socialism as something similar to communism. And we don't want to be like Russia, Cuba, or China.
Some may equate socialism as something similar to the French model. But the French are the first to get overrun by tyrants in times of war. And I think we may view them as whiny, snivelling pansies that give in too easily.
Personally, I'm torn. I want to maximize the fruits of my labor and don't relish "giving it away" for taxes or what have you. But I also recognize the need for healthcare within my family. And at the current state, healthcare is just too exorbitantly and unrealistically expensive.
I'm self-employed and I was under the illusion that THAT was the American Dream.
Anyway, I find it hard to believe that a company pawn or corporate sheep are more "deserving" of healthcare or healthcare discounts than I am. Yet they seem to get treated that way because they belong to a "pool" of fish. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/21/2009 7:17:51 AM |
Social Security was a great idea when first adopted and instituted. The Social Security fund grew nice and fat because everyone was paying into it.
It wasn't until later, greedy government used the Social Security Fund to finance other social "welfare" programs and general funds, that it began to go downhill.
Governments misuse of government "social" programs is what causes our distrust.
exactly ! Thank you.
Any system is subject to abuse of power ~ any of them.
and that's what we have here abuses of power, and bad ideas.
A government is only a "good" as it's leadership.
We have suffered greatly under poor leadership for many years here in the USA.
and it shows!
It's clear to many if not most of us Americans things must change for the road we travel fails to place us where we want to be.
We have all kinds of people here in the USA, ~ all kinds ~ a Zoo of people really from all corners of the earth, all religions, all faiths. It is a place where everything can be believed or disbelieved and you can still fit in.
So if it takes us a little time to find a new direction ~ be patient with us as we attempt to allow everyone to wake up and smell the coffee. Some sleep quit soundly and are hard to wake up. ~ I'd guess maybe 30% of American see little need for change from presnt conditions affect them very little. ~ They only fear of maybe "losing" something that 70% of us has already lost several years ago. ~
It will come their turn to lose at some point, the darkness will show up at their door. But like global warming, they see no great need to react but rather worry about it "tomorrow"
Part of government job is to steer, create conditions that "make " people do the right thing for everyone concerned. ~ This is what's been missing, we' d had government that's had a "hands off" approach to big interest yet mico-managed "Joe Citizen"
Joe Citizen has been expose to government making him "do the right thing" and comply as Big Business does as it pretty well pleases.
Exxon -Mobil has yet to fully confiscate the people that lost their liveyhood over the Valdez incident ~ case in point. ~ They are tied up in court ~ waiting for the victims to die and people to forget about it. ~
Our tax dollars build the infrastructure that big business "must have" ~ We afford big business tax credit to entice them to locate and build in a n area. ~
My thoughts are ~ we need big business and big business needs us.
It needs to be "equitable" ~ for all! ~ We have under went a great transfer of wealth in the last decade ~ and 70% of us hurt from the disparity.
and that is just a broad over view of the problems we face today as we attempt to address them and 30% fight us so hard.
Dance | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/21/2009 7:56:07 AM | .
It wasn't until later, greedy government used the Social Security Fund to finance other social "welfare" programs and general funds, that it began to go downhill.
social "welfare"?
............Star Wars.... Midget man ... B-1 .... PeaceKeeper..... 30 years....Iraq? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/21/2009 11:02:29 AM | Down with Socialism !!!
Stop manufacturing paper money and coins. Use the barter system , raise livestock to pay your bills.
Down with the F.B.I, C.I.A. , and all government run prisons. When there is no more space in the privately run prisons..let the criminals run free!!!
Abolish the military....no enemies would dare attack a "free enterprise" nation!!!
P.S. I could make this a much longer list but I think most of you get the picture. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/21/2009 1:27:53 PM | Oh lordy...rebel pride
I have never lived in the South. I am from South Dakota. I just read alot. When you search beyond the propoganda there are plenty of resources out there to open a person up to the truth. Seccession is in no way unconstitutional. Any state that feels that the central government is oppressing it can leave the union. What was unconstitutional was Lincoln's scorched earth policy. His invading the south and destroying the south's whole way of life. Lincoln was literally an American tyrant.
As for "limited central powers", if you studied constitutional history, or actually read the constitution, you would understand that a socialist program such as Healthcare is well within the enumerated powers granted to the Federal government laid out in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 of the United States Constitution; the Taxing and Spending Clause.
Its precise text reads as follows, "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"
General welfare did not mean social programs. General welfare deals with laws deemed to the protection of citezens. After a fighting a war that dealt with oppressive taxation. You want us to believe the our founders would ok the oppressive taxation of the modern day? Yes, the government has the power to tax. It was never given the power to punish the successful and redistribute the the wealth in the way the statist mindset would lead you to believe. See our founders also gave us the Federalist papers and other documents that work as a commentary on the Constitution.
your reading of the Constitution is a nice distortion of the original intent. Much the way Lincoln's was.
Even Thomas Jefferson believed we should have a revolution about every twenty years. The Constitution also gives us the right to over throw a despotic Central government. Obama is bringing us closer to that everyday.
Long live the Reagan revolution!!! | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/21/2009 1:31:52 PM | Okay, I have a solution. All of you under-achievers and people who are un-able to live without government help, move to Canada. People who can make it on their own or with the support of their familes will stay in the US.
Problem solved. No need for anyone to change their policy.
The truth is this. I did not go to school for half a decade to pay for someone else to sit on their ass.
Tax is necessary for common things like roadways, government pay-roll, etc. However, being taxed to pay for some border-hopping illegal to get medical care is not something I am in favor of. That kind of tax is the kind of tax that sent Rome into the rubble of history. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/21/2009 1:42:43 PM | If you have more than enough to conduct illegal wars, prop up dictators and meddle in everyones business, you can have healthcare for people, among other social services.
Hell every other western nation does.
Many with conservative governments.
cheers
F.P. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/21/2009 2:20:21 PM |
General welfare did not mean social programs. General welfare deals with laws deemed to the protection of citezens. After a fighting a war that dealt with oppressive taxation. You want us to believe the our founders would ok the oppressive taxation of the modern day? Yes, the government has the power to tax. It was never given the power to punish the successful and redistribute the the wealth in the way the statist mindset would lead you to believe. See our founders also gave us the Federalist papers and other documents that work as a commentary on the Constitution.
Not according to Alexander Hamilton, who held that this power allows the Federal Government to spend money for the benefit of the general welfare of the nation, examples such as agriculture and education, provided that they are uniform throughout the nation.
your reading of the Constitution is a nice distortion of the original intent. Much the way Lincoln's was.
Are you implying that the government has exceeded its position of power in establishment of programs like Medicare, OSHA, and Family Medical Leave? Further more there is no "distortion" of the constitution in the powers vested to establish programs such programs. Even if you could form a coherent and viable argument (which you have not), the Federal Government is still empowered to provide for the General Welfare of the nation, and can still assert the power to do so under the Necessary and Proper Clause.
Even Thomas Jefferson believed we should have a revolution about every twenty years. The Constitution also gives us the right to over throw a despotic Central government. Obama is bringing us closer to that everyday.
Long live the Reagan revolution!!!
Who is distorting history again? It looks like you. Thomas Jeffersons twenty year "revolution" is spin doctoring on his original words that stated laws and constitutions only have a shelf life of nineteen years, he never set any time frame for revolutions to take place. So by your logic the constitution you herald as your protector isn't even a legitimate document anyways. Additionally, Jefferson stated in a letter to George Logan that Corporations are an aristocracy and should be crushed in their infancy to protect the nation. It doesn't sound like he was in favor of the privatized insurers you want to defend. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/22/2009 2:19:31 PM |
The truth is this. I did not go to school for half a decade to pay for someone else to sit on their ass.
hmm~should I bother?
No ~ I think I'll let that one pass. The "under-achievers" part really got me.
So simple the view, the less you know. Half a decade ain't spit ! It takes that long to make a good duck dog.
Dance | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/23/2009 5:05:46 AM | Actually, we are a very socialistic country, we just don't like thinking about it that way.
There are the obvious services provided by government such as police, fire departments and public works like roads and bridges.
Medicare and medicaid are obviously socialist programs. How many good Republican seniors would like to get rid of Medicare ?
Any one working for a defence contractor like Boeing or Lockheed is in effect getting paid through government taxpayer dollars. Do they consider themselves socialists ? Would anyone suggest making our national defense completely privately funded to avoid socialism ?
How many millionaires and even billionaires, like Ross Perot have made their fortunes from government contracts ? You don't hear them calling themselves socialist.
The Cash for Clunkers program is obviously socialist. The government is subsidizing people buying cars.
It has been a great success and has been a much needed boost to the automobile industry and it's workers. How many red-blooded Republican US auto workers have had their jobs saved by this program ? Do they think they would be better off without it ?
There is socialism all around us. We are one of the most socialist countries in the world but we just don't want to talk about it that way. | |
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