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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 10:04:16 PM | If you understand this, you will understand why we hate the slippery slope of socialism. I didn't like Bush either, Obama is a nightmare. The fundamental changes tho our country started in the early 1900s by the progressive movement, seems they are raising their head again.
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 10:11:02 PM |
If you understand this, you will understand why we hate the slippery slope of socialism. I didn't like Bush either, Obama is a nightmare. The fundamental changes tho our country started in the early 1900s by the progressive movement, seems they are raising their head again.
Same question I asked another poster: Do you drive on public roads? Have you ever contacted the police for anything? Do you have a fire department? Any bridges where you live? Know anyone on Medicare? Know anyone on Medicaid?
If the answer is yes to any of those questions, then you don't really hate socialism, do you.
What you hate is Orwell's 1984.
...deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...
The 'governed' includes those of us who believe that every citizen of the United States should have decent health care--not just those who oppose it. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 10:26:52 PM |
If you weren't so caught up in blind patriotism, you'd realize that the U.S hasn't accomplished anything even close to what those other countries have.
I never knew ancient Rome was part of Canada, Western Europe, or Australia, which were the places mentioned in the post I was responding to. But you seem to know a great deal that I, blinded by patriotism, can't see. Must be your superior schools in Canada. I'd return your gratuitous insult of my country, but some things speak for themselves.
And you also seem to know all about me, though I can't imagine how. Could it be that you just resent the U.S. and Americans in general? It sure sounds like it. You haven't one scintilla of evidence that I'm "caught up in fear of the unknown," or that I "have an odd propensity to automatically be fearful of ANYTHING that challenges" my "narrow, egocentric view of the world." People who know me know better. As for resorting to name-calling when someone dared express a view you don't like, it's you who chose to do that.
If the rest of the world hates my country--as you evidently do--because it regards us as stupid and arrogant, I couldn't care less. Get over it. You weren't attacked by Islamist Nazis--we were. Did you imagine we Americans were so stupid we'd just sit there apologizing for making the G--d----- swine angry? That sounds more like something people like you might do.
Maybe you can find the video where Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the chief planner of 9/11, hacks off poor Daniel Perl's head while he screams--for the crime of being a Jew. I called them Nazis, and I meant it. I can't say here what I think of people who willingly serve as apologists for them. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 10:50:07 PM | will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes;
This is about the federal government, no there should be no medicaid, medicare, or any other federal program that is not explicitly spelled out by the Constitution. Imagine if all the wasted federal tax money was kept local, since all these services are provided at a the county level anyway. Then it would be the local populaces choices as to what services to provide to who, as long they do not violate the Constitution.
We get back 33cents out of every dollar we send to Washington, how about Washington get the 33 cents and we keep the rest at the local level.
Do we really trust the same government that has bankrupted Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid to get his one right?
Do we need all these agencies.
http://www.usa.gov/Agencies/Federal/All_Agencies/index.shtml | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 10:54:46 PM |
I'm sure we all know at least one arrogant, stupid person who always believes that they're right no matter what evidence there is against their views. That person who is constantly causing arguments over every little thing and will always resort to insults and violence against some poor sap who had the nerve to correct him.
Well, to the rest of the world, Americans are that guy. The sensible ones have my sympathy for having to put up with them.
^^^ Well said. I fully concur.
You do?
Well, I believe the World has a lot to be thankful for, due to the hard choices that America has had to make. NO, we are not perfect... But I believe it is an insult to try and make America out to be the bad guy.
Personally, I'm proud to be an American.
And in no way do I believe we should change from the Free.... and enslave ourselves into Socialism. Sure, we have social programs and we try and help each other... This is what makes us great. But we are the Land of the People... We control our leaders.... Not the other way around.... at least this is how it is suppose to be. The more we lose this.... The more we lose our freedoms. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 11:07:52 PM | The 'governed' includes those of us who believe that every citizen of the United States should have decent health care--not just those who oppose it.
That doesn't give anyone the right to ignore the Constitution. I'd like to know where it authorizes anything of this kind. It does not, except for people who think it's just a set of guidelines--a sort of list of suggestions about what government should, or may, do. That's a contradiction in terms, though--constitutions of any kind are meant to be more or less permanent, and therefore hard to change. And the rule of law's on firmer ground when they're kept that way.
But most statists don't want to bother with amending the Constitution, which is the only way it authorizes to change it. They'd rather just make it mean whatever they want it to, to have a "liberal" Supreme Court interpret it in ways that authorize a truly national government to run most of our lives. But all the facts indicate that's the very opposite of the kind of federal government the Constitution was intended to create. So what?
Do you think people would be so willing to bend the Constitution to authorize any centralized national programs they favor, if some day a law were to take away their right to speak freely, or to have a jury trial; or authorized police to search their houses without either good cause or a warrant? If that ever happened, I'm certain everyone who wants a "living Constitution"--one that can be twisted to authorize any government social program they'd like--would be loudly demanding to have a court interpret the threatened individual right *very* literally, and uphold it to the letter. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/27/2009 11:58:54 PM | I am not ignoring the Constitution, and neither am I ignoring the fact that we have millions of people who are either under-insured, or not insured at all.
I am not talking about changing the Constitution--where that came from, I have no clue.
And, actually, the Constitution is often referred to as a 'living' document. I'm sure that giving every citizen of the United States health insurance would be 'twisting' the Constitution, to some. To me, it supports the idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness--more easily attainable when one doesn't have to worry about paying for health care at the expense of that life. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 12:28:15 AM |
To me, it supports the idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness--more easily attainable when one doesn't have to worry about paying for health care at the expense of that life.
Huh? You are mistaking the Declaration of Independence with the U.S. Constitution.
Excuse me, but I'd rather purchase my own insurance than PAY the govt thru taxes to make that decision for me. That is called FREEDOM.
Now to answer the OP. We don't like socialism, because as a free people, we don't need the government running our lives. We are capable people that don't need the nanny state making decisions for us. Socialism is for individuals who feel comfortable turning their lives over to mindless bureaucrats.
And now for some wisdom from the past:
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Ben Franklin
“Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself” - Mark Twain
What is the difference between a taxidermist and a tax collector? The taxidermist takes only your skin. -- Mark Twain | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 12:28:46 AM |
But we are the Land of the People... We control our leaders.... Not the other way around.... at least this is how it is suppose to be
The problem is is isn't the way it is. Nor is it "the other way around". It's the large corporations that control the leaders. The politicians are there to do their bidding.
Lazzie-faire was pushed heavily by Reagan...touted by some as "Reaganomics"...but in reality he copied Friedman and the Chicago School of Economics theory's....which were used by (forced on, really) Chile and Indonesia (just 2 examples...several others too)...and who did they end up with? Pinochet and Suharto.
Unfettered free market capitalism is as much a pipe dream as is total control socialism....greedy people get in the way and the vast majority loose.
If the health insurance industry can afford to spend $1.4 million a day fighting against change, what does that say to their priorities? Where did that money come from?
YOU....they rake in the premiums when you're healthy, but when 65 hits...oops...sorry...the gov will take care of you now.
10 to 1 says they'll be asking for a bailout in the not to distant future.
Privatize the profits...socialize the losses... | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 12:40:24 AM |
We are capable people that don't need the nanny state making decisions for us.
Other than roads, bridges, traffic signs, school curriculum, police, firefighters, etc, what other "nanny state" rules would you like to do away with? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 2:11:05 AM | | You do realize that even if the healthcare bill was passed, statistics state we would still have 17million americans uncovered. So i ask what is the point? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 3:05:41 AM | If you weren't so caught up in blind patriotism, you'd realize that the U.S hasn't accomplished anything even close to what those other countries have.
I never knew ancient Rome was part of Canada.
If the rest of the world hates my country--as you evidently do--because it regards us as stupid and arrogant, I couldn't care less. Get over it. You weren't attacked by Islamist Nazis--we were. Did you imagine we Americans were so stupid we'd just sit there apologizing for making the G--d----- swine angry? That sounds more like something people like you might do.
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Ancient Rome hasnt had an influence on the modern world?
Aus is one of the worlds most stable democracies, historically.
islamist nazis? funny when you just had a quasi fascist government.
After all the stuff America has done around the world, some of it is gonna come back at you, just karma. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 5:56:56 AM |
I never knew ancient Rome was part of Canada, Western Europe, or Australia, which were the places mentioned in the post I was responding to. But you seem to know a great deal that I, blinded by patriotism, can't see. Must be your superior schools in Canada. I'd return your gratuitous insult of my country, but some things speak for themselves.
Ummm... dude.... Rome ( Italy) is in Western Europe, and the Holy Roman Empire took up the vast majority of it.
But you seem to know a great deal that I, blinded by patriotism, can't see.
Of course you can't. If you could, you'd realize that you made a VERY stupid statement when you claimed that the US had greater accomplishments than countries old enough to put the U.S over their proverbial knees and spank the sh*t out of it.
And you also seem to know all about me, though I can't imagine how. Could it be that you just resent the U.S. and Americans in general? It sure sounds like it. You haven't one scintilla of evidence that I'm "caught up in fear of the unknown," or that I "have an odd propensity to automatically be fearful of ANYTHING that challenges" my "narrow, egocentric view of the world." People who know me know better. As for resorting to name-calling when someone dared express a view you don't like, it's you who chose to do that.
Or.... wait for it.... the second paragraph of my post wasn't directed at you specifically but at a segment of your population... in general. Are you sure the egocentric part doesn't apply to you?
If the rest of the world hates my country--as you evidently do--because it regards us as stupid and arrogant, I couldn't care less. Get over it. You weren't attacked by Islamist Nazis--we were. Did you imagine we Americans were so stupid we'd just sit there apologizing for making the G--d----- swine angry? That sounds more like something people like you might do.
Of course not, if you cared you wouldn't be considered as stupid and arrogant. Duh!
I'm sure you were way more terrified than I was, holed up somewhere an entire continent away while I was gathering supplies for stranded passengers, wondering if one or more of the dozens of airplanes landing here was in on the plot... and might decide to take out any target rather than none at all?
Nobody expected you to just sit there... but would it have killed you to take a step back and make sure you had the right targets instead of coming out guns blazing? It would have saved you a ton of money, and most likely would have prevented the mess your economy is in. It amazes me that in this day and age countries would base their foreign policy on spaghetti westerns....
Maybe you can find the video where Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the chief planner of 9/11, hacks off poor Daniel Perl's head while he screams--for the crime of being a Jew. I called them Nazis, and I meant it. I can't say here what I think of people who willingly serve as apologists for them.
I had to read that twice, because I'm sure I heard the music from a tiny violin as I read it the first time. I guess I left out the American (general, not specific, in case you get your panties in a wad) propensity to act emotionally rather than rationally. And to use words that don't fit (like Nazi)but insist they do because, gosh darn it, it makes what you have to say seem oh so much more serious.
Nobody is apologizing for the terrorists, and I find it extremely odd when people make that claim against people who point out that it's a specific, tiny group of Muslims that did it and that it shouldn't be held against the rest of them. This is what I was talking about. Americans who hear a few buzz words that "sound right" then go all righteous indignation on everyone's asses.
"Terrorist.... [bold] socialism [/bold].... communism.... red.... Nazi.... death panels....." and so on.
You've given me an idea though. From now on I'm going to go around calling every Christian I meet Koresh or Jones! JJ for short! | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 7:54:22 AM |
Why isnt a collective of people governing better than giving all the power to corporations and to individual enterprise (ie. market domination)? Why is that word, socialism, so profane to Americans?
To begin, I'm not a collective, I AM an individual. I was born with NO silver spoon in my mouth. In fact, I've worked since I was 14 yrs of age. I have never looked at something that someone else has and thought.....how lucky they are. I think...how hard they must have WORKED.
Having always EARNED a paycheck, as opposed to being "granted" a government stipend, I VALUE the toil and sacrifice that I make for each dollar that I EARN. I also accept the responsibility for what businesses I support with MY money. I have "boycotted" stores, restaurants, and other businesses for issues ranging from discriminatory hiring, to inefficient service, corrupt management, etc.
Most people make the mistake of assuming that because a rich "socialist" is a socialist that he/she really cares about the disadvantaged. WRONG! They don't. It's just the drum they bang on to get richer. You mention Bill Gates, but neglect to mention the Kennedy's???? The fact is, that NEITHER is responsible for the 85 yr old woman having cancer, and also fail to realize that the space program has been the catalyst for numerous "discoveries" that made life better for everyone...including 85 yr old women with cancer.
But those are mostly doctors who want to make more money then the provincial health care plan entitles them too. THIS IS THE PROBLEM! It's NOT any provincial health care plan which SHOULD dictate what someone is "ENTITLED" to make. People should not be "entitled" to make.....or to NOT make. "Entitlement" shouldn't even come into play. You speak of a "collective of people" deciding what other people "should" be entitled to earn.....but yet...it WAS A COLLECTIVE OF PEOPLE who decided to support the Bernie Madoffs, Hank Paulsons....OMG....the list is endless.
People believe that programs like HUD actually help the "poor"...when they do NOTHING of the sort. What they do, is create MORE poor....while they're creating hundreds of thousands of rich "slum lords".
I'm not ashamed to admit that until a few months ago.....I'd been a registered Republican....for 38 years. It is no small decision I've made that I am going to vote for every socialist program that comes down the pike for the rest of my life. This is NOT an endorsement for "socialism", as indeed....TRUE SOCIALISM does NOT exist. Just as it has become perfectly clear that TRUE CAPITALISM does NOT exist....at least not any longer...not in the good ole U.S. of A. I simply don't believe that 25 years of socialism can hurt this country any worse than the "fake capitalism" we've been operating under for the last 25 years has. And I STILL hate "socialism".
"Social justice" has to start and end with the INDIVIDUAL. Having a "collective of people" does nothing more than give us an endless supply of "OTHERS" to blame. Banks need to fail, companies need to tumble, and insurance companies need to hold mass suicide parties in their corporate offices. Prices and standards of services and goods need to be set by INDIVIDUALS who EARN every dollar they have....not every dollar they they learned to extort from a corrupt system....whether it's outrageous executive bonuses, or outrageous transfer payments (welfare). NEITHER is "earned"....meaning that executives who have been responsible for the bankruptcy of companies didn't "earn" their $25million bonuses....it was "bestowed" on them....just like welfare.
I do intend to vote for whatever health care program Obama comes up with...I don't care what it says in the fine print. It can't be any worse than what we have now.
YOU complain that our "poor little specialists" who save lives makes $200K a year....and yet seem to think NOTHING of the Insurance Co. CEO who makes $22 MILLION a year!!!! And that doesn't even include his perks and bonuses! So, how exactly can you justify a 4 yr MBA earning 100 TIMES more than a cardiologist or even the guy who fixes broken legs?
You THINK that we're going to eliminate those $22 million a year crooks with socialized medicine...but we're NOT....we're simply going to exchange one for another. Let's take the "socialist" program of Fannie Mae for example: CEO was paid (notice I did not say that he EARNED) 1 million in salary, 2.2 million in "incentive pay", 1o million in stocks, and another 153,000K in "miscellaneous expenses". That's 14 Million in pay....FOR LOSING 2.1 BILLION dollars. You THINK there's a difference in todays "socialism vs. capitalism"...but there is NOT. They BOTH stink....they BOTH need to be rammed down the throats of the greedy **stards running the show. But that is NOT going to happen as long as we THINK we have "power" in a "collection of people". It's going to take a bunch of INDIVIDUALS....who INDIVIDUALLY stand up and REFUSE to participate in or support both of these corrupt systems. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 8:51:12 AM |
Other than roads, bridges, traffic signs, school curriculum, police, firefighters, etc, what other "nanny state" rules would you like to do away with?
Roads, bridges, police and fire are actually covered by the Constitution so they are OK.
I would get rid of public schools in a New York minute. I would not hesitate getting rid of any entity or law that was not constitutional. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 9:37:48 AM | You would be happy if there was an uneducated underclass?
just to prove a point?
Rather odd thinking i would say.
But nothing suprises me much anymore over there lol lol.
Cheers
F.P. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 9:43:07 AM |
The 'governed' includes those of us who believe that every citizen of the United States should have decent health care--not just those who oppose it.
Find me a single poll (with more than a few hundred responders) that shows a majority being in favor of the new health-care bill Obama has proposed then. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 9:49:29 AM | To me, it supports the idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness--more easily attainable when one doesn't have to worry about paying for health care
So who does pay for it? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 10:18:26 AM | You would be happy if there was an uneducated underclass?
just to prove a point?
Rather odd thinking i would say.
But nothing suprises me much anymore over there lol lol.
Believe it or not there are good private schools. I think education should be privatized.
An interesting point is that home schooled kids taught by amateurs do better on standardized tests than those great public schools. As I pointed out public schools are doing a poor job at great expense.
The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money. --
Margaret Thatcher
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 10:57:06 AM |
What do propose to do with people who can't afford private or home schooling?
Property owners pay for public education whether or not they send their children to public schools.
The simplest solution is to institute a school voucher program to give parents the option on whether or not to send them to public or private schools. CA is paying over $9,000 per student, many private schools charge far less than that. An excellent private school in my town charges $4,400 a year. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 10:57:47 AM | Ah socialism. I just can't go for something that is so emphatically geared towards hurting those who have succeeded to help those who have not. I just can't do it. Not that I am not for helping others as stated before, but really. Those who like socialist programs I would wager would not take kindly to evening things out. Again I use my busted A/C as an example. I have gotten no PM's from anyone on the forum asking where to send money so as to re-integrate me into the AC equipped society driving around. So I crawled under my car, slashed the A/C belt, and free'ed up a few horsepower and proceeded to go make the owner of a new Camaro SS wonder why his 426hp engine wasn't pulling him ahead of me.
But wait. None of this might have taken place if everyone in society were equal, which is the ultimate goal of socialist ideas. Build up the low, beat down the high. Right now it starts with basics, education, health-care, etc.
Soon it will extend into a little more than basics, such as housing (kinda already there), automobiles (cash for clunkers), and other things.
Then it will go further. Meh. I just don't like. Also, as a rule of thumb, the government can't do anything for you cheaper than you can do it yourself. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 11:02:51 AM | you Americans take it to the extreme lol
Talking anout a mixed amrket system, like every western nation.
Not out and out communism.
is it that hard to get? unwrap yourselves form your flags ffs. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/28/2009 11:13:29 AM |
you Americans take it to the extreme lol
Talking anout a mixed amrket system, like every western nation.
Not out and out communism.
is it that hard to get? unwrap yourselves form your flags ffs.
I think our country was better off before all these programs came into being, personally. We have already given up so much to them, why give up more? | |
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