| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/18/2009 6:46:38 PM | There's plenty of evidence that the Syrian's did it. Used it as a way of appeasing their hard-liners. Unfortunately, they were the only country that was willing to deal with the US at the time, so they couldn't be targeted for it.
Libya just happened to be the convenient target at the time. | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/19/2009 2:25:06 AM | \\Quite. It's quite amazing what people believe when they haven't read or looked for any evidence to the contrary. We get drip fed crap from right wing newspapers and too few people actually look beyond the headlines and into the politics of it all.\\
Yes it is quite amazing!
\\The flight was bombed in retaliation for an Air Bus being shot down by the US Navy\\
How do you know?
Was Gadaffi without a motive of retaliation for the US air strike on his camp where he barely escaped with his life and number of his children killed.
\US Military court said the captain did nothing wrong even though the flight path records show the air bus was on it normal fight path. \\
By your comment, you obviously have not researched the circumstances of that tragic incident. | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/19/2009 2:35:34 AM | Really?
ran Air Flight 655, also known as IR655, was a civilian airliner shot down by US missiles on Sunday July 3, 1988, over the Strait of Hormuz, toward the end of the Iran–Iraq War.
The aircraft, an Airbus A300B2 operated by Iran Air as IR655, was flying from Bandar Abbas, Iran, to Dubai, UAE, when it was destroyed by the U.S. Navy's guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes, killing all 290 passengers and crew aboard, including 66 children,[1] ranking it the seventh among the deadliest airliner fatalities.[2] It was the highest death toll of any aviation incident in the Indian Ocean and the highest death toll of any incident involving an Airbus A300 anywhere in the world. The Vincennes was traversing the Straits of Hormuz inside Iranian territorial waters and at the time of the attack, IR655 was within Iranian airspace.
According to the US government, the crew mistakenly identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14 Tomcat fighter. The Iranian government maintained that the Vincennes knowingly shot down the civilian aircraft. The event generated a great deal of controversy and criticism of the US. Some analysts have blamed US military commanders and the captain of the Vincennes for reckless and aggressive behavior in a tense and dangerous environment.[3][4]
A passenger jet mistaken for a fighter jet? Given that the sizes of the planes are different you might think that an experienced US Navy crew might be able to tell the difference?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/3/newsid_4678000/4678707.stm | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/19/2009 6:44:19 AM | 1) If this latest release is politically engineered, should politics be allowed to govern prisoner's sentences?
2) Is there any just reason why prisoners convicted of murder should be released on compassionate grounds?
I have my doubts also if this person was really responsible for this terrible mass murder.
I don't think the real culprits will ever be brought to justice though and are probably in Libya.
In a case where there is no doubt on the prisoners guilt and an equally horrendous crime
has been committed I don't think they should ever be released on compassionate grounds.
They would have showed no compassion to their victims whilst carrying out their murder.
I don't care either if by not setting free such a person makes them out to be a martyr either. | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/19/2009 1:27:41 PM | Yes really..
Well done you demostrated your powers of cut and paste.
\\A passenger jet mistaken for a fighter jet? Given that the sizes of the planes are different you might think that an experienced US Navy crew might be able to tell the difference.\\
Keep digging, If you had any knowledge of radar operation, you would know the blip on screen does not indicate size or type of aircraft!
\\We get drip fed crap from right wing newspapers and too few people actually look beyond the headlines and into the politics of it all.\\
What makes me laff, is your statement show you're driven by politcal dogma
and therefore your responses lack objectivity, and then you criticise others for lack of obejctivity. | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/19/2009 2:26:36 PM | | one plus point is that we wont being paying for his treatment, so going back to his place of origin he may not get the same unless he pays so his life will be shorter, also it releases 1 more cell, | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/19/2009 3:46:48 PM | What makes me laff, is your statement show you're driven by politcal dogma
and therefore your responses lack objectivity, and then you criticise others for lack of obejctivity.
Because I don't read the Daily Mail? Or because I disagreed with you? Strange isn't it that when people ask how someone comes to a conclusion about what they have posted and get given links, they then have a pop at it. Neither obviously am I an expert in avionics. I gave my opinion on the right wing press. Do I need to have knowledge of radar operation?
Do you research absolutely everything on a topic before you post on the forums?
If you read the link I put I actually quoted from that, maybe you want to pick up the people who wrote that and not me.
The address the post and not the poster one springs to mind.
If I were you, I'd have a think about that before you criticise me personally. | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/19/2009 4:08:27 PM | Before anyone decides to give me a broadside, I admit that I know little of the evidence against al-Megrahi. I am led to understand that he was an employee of the Libyan state who regularly travelled outside his own country, illicitly purchasing bomb making materials. On this point alone he has no sympathy from me.
However, there are aspects of 'real politic'. He is no longer a danger to the west. His release on compassionate grounds is not without value in the rest of the world outside the west. | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/20/2009 5:05:59 AM | He's being freed, it's just been announced. He is apparently being flown back to Tripoli this afternoon.
well what is to stop him now from becoming a suicide bomber he knows he is going to die so why not take a few hundred more with him ??
He has a very aggressive form of prostate cancer, now I'm no expert but I saw my Gran just a few weeks before she died of bowel cancer and she couldn't even get out of bed so I don't think he'll be going shopping for the stuff he needs do you? | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/20/2009 5:34:02 AM | | The main thing I don't like about Megrahi's situation is that once he dies, those in power will likely use it as an excuse to not continue the investigation into the facts behind the bombing. The full truth about the bombing hasn't come out and once Megrahi dies, a lot of people will use that as a convenient reason to try and put the whole matter to rest. | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/20/2009 6:26:02 AM | IMHO his guilt or innocence is of no consequence in regards to the actual story being debated here, the question is, should a convicted murderer be released on compassionate grounds when their own life is coming to an inevitable end..?
I don't think so... I believe the compassion should lie in the treatment of the convict within the limitations of their incarceration.. As long as they receive good medical care and are given appropriate pain relief and are treated humanely, then there is no good reason for anyone to be released early from their sentence..
Will we release Peter Sutcliffe? Dennis Nilson? Ian Brady? Colin Ireland? Etcetera ...
If al-Megrahi is innocent of the crime he was convicted of, that is a totally separate issue to releasing someone who is guilty, just because they happen to be dying... | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/20/2009 6:59:46 AM | Grave illness has often been used as a reason for evading justice and too often it has turned out to be not as grave as it first looked. Think back to Ernest Saunders the former chief executive of Guinesss sentenced to five years for fraud but released after ten because of pre-senile dementia the symptoms of which vanished after his release, the former leader of East Germany, Erich Honecker, convicted for murdering 192 people, was halted due to terminal liver cancer and he was allowed to go home to Chile to live with his daughter although he lived for another 16 months after he was released.
Ronnie Biggs hardly compares with this case but even so it seems that at least Jack Straw understood that judicial decisions should not be lightly overruled.
I think as there has been a lot of doubt expressed about this man's guilt in the first place he should be allowed home to die, especially as it will be seen that we are opposing Hillary Clinton's wishes which can only be a good thing in my book, but I'm sure the Scottish justice minister, Mr MacAskill, will be praying he dies not long after he gets there! If he dies before he gets there that might be an equally worse outcome.
I can understand why political intervention can sometimes serve a country's best interests but it's a double edged sword because how can justice be seen to be served for the victims? | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/20/2009 2:22:58 PM |
I don't think so... I believe the compassion should lie in the treatment of the convict within the limitations of their incarceration.. As long as they receive good medical care and are given appropriate pain relief and are treated humanely, then there is no good reason for anyone to be released early from their sentence.
If releasing a prisoner meant this country would be able to maintain a good relationship with the country of origin of the prisoner which might be integral to our country's well being, would that make any difference to your thinking? | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/21/2009 1:01:10 AM |
If releasing a prisoner meant this country would be able to maintain a good relationship with the country of origin of the prisoner which might be integral to our country's well being, would that make any difference to your thinking?
Personal opinion? No it wouldn't change my views.. But I can understand that sometimes the Political implications are far wider reaching than just the emotions and views of the victims' families and that sometimes unpopular decisions have to be made...
In this particular case, yes we have a large amount invested in Libyan oil but will this decision to keep Libya happy, have an adverse effect on our socio economic relations with the US? Who would you prefer to have good relations with? I suppose it's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't but the images of the heroes welcome al-Megrahi received were not well met by the US... Will that have far reaching implications? Say perhaps a significant drop in tourism to Scotland by the US? Little things at first... But who knows where the ripple effect will end? | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/21/2009 2:00:09 AM | Mr Obama said the US Government had been in contact with the Scottish authorities to express opposition to the move, which he said was "a mistake".
I expressed my concerns about closing Gitmo and said it was a 'mistake', did he listen..
Touche  | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/21/2009 5:38:05 AM | When I watched Sky News yesterday and it was announced Al Megrahi would not be released under the Prisoner Transfer appeal but on Compasionate grounds I was astounded. But shall we look at this more in depth, me and my father talked about this at length and both agree that he was made a scapegoat. I don't personally believe he was the bomber. Libya was forced into handing over somebody responsible brought about from US threat and pressure. Libya needing all help from outside its borders decided to offer up Mr Megrahi. In all likelyhood they promised to look after his family while he served this prison sentence. Now being released under compasionate grounds makes me believe that the Scottish Justice department also do not believe he was responsible for the deaths of the 270 aboard Pan Am flight 103.
This release also sets a precident in my opinion as lags who may have an illness will now apply for compasionate release. As this country is a soft touch they will probably get it citing Mr Megrahi's release and how they match same criteria as he did.
I feel for the families of those who died, justice has never been carried out and their grief never properly respected. | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/21/2009 6:02:50 AM |
This release also sets a precident in my opinion as lags who may have an illness will now apply for compasionate release.
It's been a "valid" reason for release for years and has been used in many other cases, Ronnie Biggs being the other obvious recent case.
I don't know whether he is guilty or not, but I do believe in equal treatment for all. If the legal system starts treating different people in different ways then non of us know where we stand.
I personally don't think he should have been released but if we make a rule that terminal illness resulting in less than 3 months to live is a reason to release someone, then it has to be applied across the board, equally and to everyone. If we don't like the results then we should change the rule. | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/21/2009 6:11:31 AM |
I personally don't think he should have been released but if we make a rule that terminal illness resulting in less than 3 months to live is a reason to release someone, then it has to be applied across the board, equally and to everyone. If we don't like the results then we should change the rule.
I respect your opinion ***Col*** and agree with it, your statement that I have quoted I think makes absolute sense. We do need equality across the board but we also need stronger rules and deterrents even for own domestic troubles. You see there is no fear of the law as prison these days has been quoted as like living in a holiday camp. Being arrested in this country is like giving those troublemakers a badge of honor.
But back on point, I do not personally believe a prisoner with a terminal illness serving a sentence in relation to murder should be released. Life should mean life no matter what! | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/21/2009 7:16:02 AM | I suspect the attack or wishes for the attack on PanAm 103 went right to the top.
If Gadaffi or a high ranking offical were to admit their or state sponsorship for the attack, the US could treat it as an act of war and attack Libya as they had done for the Lybian terrorist attacks on the Achilli Lowro and Berlin Disco where US citizens were killed.
If Gadaffi remains silent, and the US investigations lead back to Libya, same outcome.
Or, find a low level suspect, tell him it's a priviledge to be a martyr for the great leader, promise him 72 virgins when he goes to heaven, and we'll take care of your familiy meanwhile.
By providing a suspect, the US were put on the back foot as in the eyes of the international community the Libyans were seen to cooperate.
On the back foot it's now difficult for the US to challenge the legitimacy of the suspect as the international community will side with Libyan cooperation, especially as he would not have been tried to establish his guilt of innocense at that stage.
Gadaffi and or any other high ranking official were never going to admit any involvement by them or the state in the attack.
Yes, it may well have been a dog and pony show, but if they found him innocent it would be back to square one leaving the US with the choice of attacking Libya that would have been condemned by the international community or taking no further action and incurring the wroth of the victims families, and a victory for terrorism.
By finding him guilty, it provided closure for both parties, and the perpetrators found guilty by proxy in their absentia.
International politics is seldomly about justice but more about expediency. | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/21/2009 7:28:41 AM | | The release seems to be in line with standard proceedure for compassionate release under Scottish rules........so yes, it's right. I do not beleive in making up rules, applying them to people and then changing them because it suits you. | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/21/2009 1:30:22 PM | OK, so the woman who was held prisoner abroad and artificially inseminated herself to become pregnant should have remained abroad and in prison there?
Should we never campaign for the return to the UK of people who are convicted of drug-trafficking abroad? Is drug-trafficking more or less lethal than a bomb?
How about those men who were released - without trial - from Guantanamo (sp?) back to the UK? Has their guilt or innocence been tested? But we asked for them to be returned.
If we are prepared as a country to argue for the return of UK prisoners then I see no wrong in releasing on compassionate grounds any prisoner whether guilty or innocent whose life is medically to be curtailed shortly anyway. He has a shorter but whole-of-life sentence than the courts gave him. | |
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| released on compassionate grounds? Lockerbie Bomber
Posted: 8/22/2009 11:12:13 AM | The release seems to be in line with standard proceedure for compassionate release under Scottish rules........so yes, it's right. I do not beleive in making up rules, applying them to people and then changing them because it suits you.
I think the Government are selective about when they choose to apply their rules though, and in this case there was definitely some selective processing going on or do all Scottish prisoners who are dying get released on compassionate grounds? If not, I wonder now if it means that all prisoners will be appealing to be released on compassionate grounds as a consequence? It's possible there was some compassion being shown though, since they may have suspected they had the wrong person locked up for the crime, but this was a politically orchestrated release which had wider implications than compassion.
OK, so the woman who was held prisoner abroad and artificially inseminated herself to become pregnant should have remained abroad and in prison there?
In hindsight, yes. If she was going to be facing the firing squad though, no. The more the Government intervene with sentences the less faith the public will have in the justice system.
Should we never campaign for the return to the UK of people who are convicted of drug-trafficking abroad? Is drug-trafficking more or less lethal than a bomb?
You can't really compare the two crimes, they are totally different. How can we have a fair and just Government when they can be selective about who they choose to have returned either to the UK or other countries, not necessarily on compassionate grounds, but for economic and political gain?
If we are prepared as a country to argue for the return of UK prisoners then I see no wrong in releasing on compassionate grounds any prisoner whether guilty or innocent whose life is medically to be curtailed shortly anyway. He has a shorter but whole-of-life sentence than the courts gave him.
I agree......mainly because if you are going to do that for one then it's only fair you do that for the rest. | |
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