| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 8/25/2009 11:57:10 AM | And justDukky, it would be completely irrelevant your personal views and behaviour about anything at all as a descriptor of human intelligence and civilisation. When ascertaining such a measure we'd be using the sum of the archaeological record, and clearly such finds as I've indicated would be prevalent.
It may very well be a reasonable assertion that your ability to hold these differences is accorded by their presence among others. That were you cast alone and forlorn in a harsh environment, you would then find a reverence for death because of your intelligence, and atheism would be the furthest thing from your mind, not because of any religious argument I assure you, but without the presence of religion what would define atheism? It would be normality, but your activities regarding ritualistic burial may very well change regardless, we are somewhat situational and intellectually adaptive after all. | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 8/25/2009 3:36:25 PM |
without the presence of religion what would define atheism?
Is it not possible that ritualistic burial implies some form of primordial religion, whereas a society with no reverence for their dead could be considered as more advanced? I'm thinking here about animals. Could it not be that they have a healthier attitude towards death than most people? If we can entertain that possibility at all, then Greg would have to concede that not mourning the dead in any way is no indication of a lack of intelligence in animals and indeed could even be construed as more intelligent than human attitudes in that regard.
The thrust of my argument is not that some or even any animals are more intelligent than Man, but that human-like intelligence may not be an appropriate criterion by which we assign what rights an organism may or may not have (i.e. what makes a psychopathic human with no love in his heart a more "valuable" animal than a loving dog, say). I've argued with people who would contend that an organism incapable of morality ought to have no human rights, but note that even these people make irrational exceptions for people with minds so disordered as to not know right from wrong simply by virtue of the fact that they are members of our species. Why can we (as humans) not be ethically consistent on the subject of rights and moral agency?
I freely admit my own hypocrisy regarding animal rights and my sweet tooth for meat; why does everyone else have so much trouble with their lack of authenticity that they have to somehow rationalize things like that into not being wrong, when they clearly are? | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 8/25/2009 3:44:32 PM | With regard to animals. Well, if we knew everything that they knew, I'm sure that we'd be suprised. Of course they know of things that relate to them as animals. For example, I'm sure that your dog knows who wears the pants in the house (if you know what I mean).
Our veneer of civility is the product of our aquired knowledge. Animals, lacking the capacity to transmit complex information, coupled oftentimes with short lifespans prohibits the aquiring of culture and the amassing of knowledge.
Take a human newborn and cast them to the wild, never to see another human being again. (of course a newborn wouldn't last long but for the sake of the arguement) That feral child would be more Ape than Tarzan if you know what I mean. All of the cultural bagage, refinements, knowledge, language, gone in a flash. I'm not sure how much our feral human would understand. Would he learn to make fire? Unlikely. Would she learn to use tools? Maybe. How do you think their dating skills would be?  | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 8/25/2009 4:29:51 PM | 'xzanthius'..//Our veneer of civility is the product of our aquired knowledge. Animals lacking the capacity to transmit complex information, coupled oftentimes with short lifespans prohibits the acquiring of culture and the amassing of knowledge.//
Although animals lack the ability to share 'complex' information amongst themselves, I think I am correct in saying that in many instances they do pass on learned traditions and habits... In the case of some apes, the act of de-leafing sticks that are poked into the earth to retrieve yummy ants is observed over time and perfected by the young.
What this means is that a long time ago, one of their ancestors worked out this tool using method of catching ants...... He was copied by others... This could be seen as a habit/tradition that is being passed down through generations...... Both habit and tradition describe culture.
I think it's possible to say that apes have culture. | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 8/25/2009 5:48:03 PM | | I have read a similiar phenomena regarding Dolphins, where a certain group practice a peculiar game with shells, apparently they 'teach' this game to their young and newcomers to the pod. The game involves carrying around the shell while they swill. | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 8/25/2009 5:51:26 PM | | Apes have a social structure. I think their intelligence should be defined within the structure, their society. Environment is an important factor in the evolution of any species and can, overtime, determine the species itself. The smart monkey doesn't need math or grammar to survive in its environment. Why should nature allow it when there is no need? I think the rights of an any animal should be relative to their observed society. | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 8/25/2009 6:42:28 PM |
I think the rights of an any animal should be relative to their observed society.
What about animals taken out of their society? What rights (if any) should a dog living in human society have? Is it right to kill them because there is no more room at the animal shelter? Is it right to use them in experiments? | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 8/25/2009 7:10:16 PM |
What about animals taken out of their society? What rights (if any) should a dog living in human society have?
"I think" that an animal taken out of its society is one of two things:
1. A member of no society or social order.
2. Is adopted into an alien society or social order.
A dog is unconsciously given "rights" because it is adopted into our society. It is our pet. We apply human emotions to it. We love it. It is a member of a family and so a member of the human social structure. It is adopted into our society and with it the dog becomes a citizen of that society. With citizenship comes rights.
Is it right to kill them because there is no more room at the animal shelter? Is it right to use them in experiments?
"I think" that "right" only exists within the network of a society or social order/structure. I personally observe this to be the dynamics of nature. Since the majority of animals are not part of the social structure or society of humans then it is either considered a resource or something else but not part of the set within the social structure that get the luck of having "rights". An example is a lion and its pride:
The Lion doesn't think a Gazelle is a lion or a cub. The lion has no reason to give it rights. It is therefore considered a resource and used as a resource the same way we use animals as a resource.
Within the social structure of a pride it is observed that sometimes the lion kill cubs. Do the lion think this is wrong? I would think they do not because it is just how they are social within their group.
"I think" that the answer to the thread is definitely no, but I think the point is a little misunderstood. Even if animals had emotions or thought like us it would mean nothing because humans would still have to accept them into human society. | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 8/25/2009 11:39:45 PM | I think consciousness can inhabit animals as well as humans. My consciousness resides in the body of an average man with an average intelligence. My consciousness could also reside in an exceptional man with a very articulate brain, but alas it does not.
It could also reside in an ape, and perhaps it once did. An ape struggling: to keep up with its tribe, to find food, to wrestle with other male apes over females. I would not be able to communicate with humans as another human, I would not be able to comprehend calculus; but you can bet I'd feel fear and pain if you beat me or used me in your experiments. | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 8/26/2009 6:30:34 AM | 'Exo'..//even if animals had emotion or thought like us it would mean nothing because humans would still have to accept them into human society//
Exo, Some humans do accept them.. In some parts of india it is shown that humans can live very peacefully alongside 'smaller' monkeys...the monkeys are not pets within the human society...the monkeys have their 'own' society that seemlessly blends with and enriches the human one.. In some ways they look like they even complement each other.
With dexterous fingers, a 'need' for hugs and acceptance amongst their friends and family, their human faces show readable expression... This concerns me. To stand them closer to other animals and not hold them closer to us, somehow seems unfair to me.
If I look at a human child who is smiling, laughing and playing in the snow, I would have issues if someone turned to me and said-"don't treat that child as if it has rights, it might be behaving like us, but it isnt one of us". | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 8/26/2009 7:49:17 AM |
If I look at a human child who is smiling, laughing and playing in the snow, I would have issues if someone turned to me and said-"don't treat that child as if it has rights, it might be behaving like us, but it isnt one of us".
I would too, but looking at history this has been exactly the case at times. I imagine that the Nazis entertained a similar line of thought. | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 8/26/2009 9:52:43 PM | So many fascinating behaviors in so many species of animals I barely know where to start - and I'm amazed at how little this thread has discovered on the topic.
Here is anteresting and informative introduction from National Geographic http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/animal-minds/virginia-morell-text.
One of the points made in the article was that Darwin felt that even earthworms showed signs of intelligence. As I asked in another post - What makes anyone think that emotions and thoughts should spontaneously appear in human rather than evolve throughout the animal kingdom?
The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has informative entries for animal cognition at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cognition-animal/
and for animal consciousness at http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-animal/. The articles have many references and googling the topics of the articles will turn up much more. The Wikipedia entries are reasonable too. Ultimately, the topic generates about as much heated debate as religion and evolution.
Cetacean language and group herding/hunting. Chimpanzee use of tools. Dogs herding. Bees and ants communicating locations and quantities. Bird language, toolmaking/ intelligence
Some birds may even rival apes for intelligence. Google New Caledonian Crow.
Today was a good day - I only ate cheese - and provided sustenance for numerous bacteria and quite a few mosquitoes. It makes me realize, we shouldn't feel guilty about eating other critters - we should just recognize they have an equal right to eat us! | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 9/19/2009 9:07:17 AM | Interesting topic....all I can say is "Ask Amy"...the gorilla who can use sign language. She will tell you in her own words IF she has "feelings and emotions".
If you cna't accept that as "proof" one way or another, then you are just closing your eyes to the possibility of actually getting an answer that may well "rock your world!" | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 9/19/2009 3:37:53 PM | | They think ape thoughts and are content . We think our thoughts and are not content by a long shot . Gives one to think ? Or not think as the case may be . There are dumb humans who just don't see the writing on the wall but the apes don't bother with the writing , they just are . Enviable state of existence . We call them ugly but who says we are beautiful ....we do , and our judgement of such things has always been subject to what others think is beautiful . So which species is the most intelligent ? | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 9/20/2009 11:40:18 AM | Well neva...Amy seems to like the idea of make-up...because she saw other females with it. So, I would hazard a guess that she has somewhat more than "ape thoughts". Far closer to "human" than " where is that food tree I saw earlier" or " hope I can grab the next branch!"
But, when confronted with ...ummm...someone like Amy (something or someone? ), who CAN make her thoughts and wishes known to us, in a recognized language....makes us stop and think.
It may not apply to other animals...but to her it does. Someone doesn't think an "animal" has feeling or emotions....try going to "talk" to Amy...see what YOU think yourself. Or even read up on her. It may well change your opinion. It did mine. | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 9/20/2009 2:09:34 PM |
and display understanding of past, present, future, empathy, show deductive thinking, express complex emotions, etc..
Have you not watched
Jim Cronin - Founder Of Monkey World....
and he observed how when one of the pack had died they go into mourning, display pecking order. Also how it has been discovered that they too enjoy sex and do it for fun, not just reproduction
Apparently they have recently discovered this in whales too...
two whales were swimming out the dominance and proved all too much for the elder male. and they caught on camera the others actually circling the whale that died like a hugging. (I have tried to look for the clip, to no avail) it was very heart wrenching. | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 9/20/2009 5:06:50 PM | Message 54:
It is the female chimpanzees that do most fishing for termites, and it does take years for the youngsters to learn it by observing and copying. There are other apes that carry hammerstones some distance to crack nuts with, and it takes a long time to learn. Packs of big cats or dogs on the hunt manage some very finely orchestrated attack plans, which is sharing complex information, and dolphins practice military maneuvers that they use in shark attacks. What they don't do is tell the story afterward, as far as we know.
We have the same brains our ancestors of 30,000 years ago had, yet their material culture was much simpler. We are doing more with the same equipment - clearly some unused potential was there the whole time - why? Great apes learn language easily, our transmission of culture to them is developing a potential that was already there. How is it adaptive for such a capacity to be present but unused? | |
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| Apes... Do they have emotions and thought processes like our own?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:01:22 AM |
The idea that we should free all animals is a poorly thought-out one. If treated properly, captive apes have a better lifestyle than wild ones. In the wild, animals are constantly avoiding predators, competing for food, fighting, dealing with extreme weather.
I am constantly avoiding thieves, rapists and other agents of danger to me. I compete in the job market all the time and I use the money to buy groceries and clothes that allow me to venture out in extreme weather.
News flash: I don't want it any other way.
My cat friends have no vocabulary and no language. I know when they are meowing "hi" and when they are meowing "get off my tail!"
My parrot would not survive 24 hours in the wild.
Did you genetically engineer your parrot? Did your parrot come from parrots that originally lived and obviously successfully bred in the wild?
I could go on, but I will end this post by suggesting watching the film, by the great director Terry Gilliam, 12 Monkeys | |
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