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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 2:36:03 PM | It is not immoral to do things which are in your nature to do. Humans eat meat in order to survive. That is not immoral.
Eating meat is not necessary to survive. It has been linked to heart disease, colon cancer, diabetes, etc. In fact the only reason to eat meat is because we enjoy it. For pleasure.
Where I live some kids broke in to a house and put the cat in the microwave and microwaved it alive. Everyone was up in arms about it, however the action served a purpose. It provided pleasure to those that did it. Much the same as eating meat provides pleasure.
Eating meat from factory farms causes a life of torture to the animal. Microwaving a cat provides a minute or so of torture. Which is worse? Both are done only to provide pleasure. In fact, vegetarians experience the same pleasure from eating other products, so even the pleasure argument is lame. Therefore microwaving a cat provides more benefit than eating meat, and is therefore more moral.
This may not be a good example, however I am just trying to point out some moral inconsistencies which dukky was talking about | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 53 | |
| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 2:36:47 PM | Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
I don't think so, but some of them are definitely more "-insert clever epithets here-", when it comes to pressing their agenda on others who don't buy their arguments, which is not very ethical or moral.
Case in point - fallacious analogies:
Where I live some kids broke in to a house and put the cat in the microwave and microwaved it alive. Everyone was up in arms about it, however the action served a purpose. It provided pleasure to those that did it. Much the same as eating meat provides pleasure
Here's an interesting take on this. On YouTube, there was a user making videos using such fallacious analogies, another user rallyed his fellow omnivores to buy extra meat (and give it away or throw it away), every time the guy posted an anti-meat video, making him the indirect cause of what he was calling immoral and unethical.
He didn't stop making videos.
Immoral or unethical?
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 2:46:27 PM |
Eating meat from factory farms causes a life of torture to the animal. Microwaving a cat provides a minute or so of torture. Which is worse? Both are done only to provide pleasure. In fact, vegetarians experience the same pleasure from eating other products, so even the pleasure argument is lame. Therefore microwaving a cat provides more benefit than eating meat, and is therefore more moral.
You are kidding me here...right?
One is pleasure derived from consumption...I will leave that one alone...the other is derived from the pleasure of torture. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 2:52:35 PM |
Case in point - fallacious analogies:
Where I live some kids broke in to a house and put the cat in the microwave and microwaved it alive. Everyone was up in arms about it, however the action served a purpose. It provided pleasure to those that did it. Much the same as eating meat provides pleasure
I don't see how. Please elaborate?
One act, involving the cat is perceived as abhorrent, the other, factory farms, is seen as acceptable torture.
Why is this? Both involve the unnecessary torturing of animals. One is done strictly for the pleasure of seeing an animal being tortured, while the other is being done to provide stimulus to our pleasure centers of taste. Are you saying the people who microwaved the cat did not get benefit? Then why did they do it?
Please let me know how this is fallacious analogies? | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 2:55:37 PM | One is pleasure derived from consumption...I will leave that one alone...the other is derived from the pleasure of torture.
Ahhh
I get it now.
"It is ok to torture animals as long as we do not derive pleasure from it".
Maybe this statement should be pinned up on the boards of factory farms.
What then of eating meat? Does this mean that we can not derive pleasure from that? I don't think MacDonalds would approve. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 3:00:56 PM |
It is ok to torture animals as long as we do not derive pleasure from it. Maybe this statement should be pinned up on the boards of factory farms.
I feel like I already made my position clear, when I cited the torture of animals in the factory farms.
I am not quite sure what your agenda is here.
Could you be more clear? | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 3:01:18 PM | Where I live some kids broke in to a house and put the cactusin the microwave and microwaved it alive. Everyone was up in arms about it, however the action served a purpose. It provided pleasure to those that did it. Much the same as eating plants provides pleasure. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 59 | |
| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 3:08:22 PM |
Please let me know how this is fallacious analogies?
There are many fallacies in play here:
Try this on for size
The inductive fallacy, false analogy:
Definition:
In an analogy, two objects (or events), A and B are shown to be similar. Then it is argued that since A has property P, so also B must have property P. An analogy fails when the two objects, A and B, are different in a way which affects whether they both have property P.
It would be the same as trying to pass off -
Sex leads to pleasure
Torturing leads to pleasure
Since torture is immoral and unethical
All sex must then be immoral and unethical
...as a valid argument.
Other fallacies apply, but this is the most glaring. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 3:23:56 PM | Ok I admit my analogy was not the best.
My purpose is simply to pursue the discrepancies in morality which the OP alluded to. One being the fact that humans almost unanimously claim that the torture done in factory farms is not immoral, but that done to pets is.
My analogy was an attempt to pursue this and show that torture done strictly for pleasure is immoral, hence the analogy.
I think it can be shown that eating meat is not necessary, it is unhealthy, and hard on the environment, so the only reason left is that it is done for pleasure. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 3:24:19 PM | I'm wondering at the morality of those who take vain pleasure purely from the pain that is inflicted upon a living thing.
I don't know about you, but while I've hurt animals when I was a kid out of curiosity (ants and a frog once) I can't say that I obtained pleasure from it (well the ants was a little fun...sad in the end, but...fun). Furthermore I believe that such behavior is indicative of a serious lack of empathy or a desire for attention, especially if perpetrated by an adult who's higher faculties should have already developed.
To not even a require a defence mechanism (it tastes good, I need the meat to be healthy, everyone was doing it, etc) when faced with such a brutal and pointless death... so much so that it was fun, pleasurable... is scary. I don't want to know the farmer who's favorite part of his work is killing his lifestock in unusual and painful fashions.
Where I live some kids broke in to a house and put the cactusin the microwave and microwaved it alive. Everyone was up in arms about it, however the action served a purpose. It provided pleasure to those that did it. Much the same as eating plants provides pleasure.
I would feel bad for the cactus too. I believe that alot can be said for intentions. It's what seperates manslaughter from murder afterall. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 3:31:46 PM | Hiya Dukky,
Well Veganism is interesting to me, because the orginal Hindu practitioners eventually straved to death. Namely for the same reason you stated, that it is wrong to kill any living thing for conusmpiton.
It is a very hard lifestyle to follow in its modern form. Many people that are vegans have nutrition deficenties, because they are balancing out there diet correctly. Can it be done? Yes. By someone well researched, with suppliments, and highly displined. Otherwise I would recommend a an Octo-veggiarian lifestyle. Which I did while I was a Collegate Westler. I will say that it wasn't for me.
On the nature of life, I think that there is an order to living things, which has to be taken into the moral equation. I would say that Elephants are higher then cats, and cats are higher then plants, and plants are higher then mirco-organizims. My reasoning has a lot to do with higher mental funtion of the create, and its genetic complexity. Though I think PETA's methods are wrong, and terroristic in nature, there view is not completely wrong. A terrorist is someone that wishes to affect change through the use of terror or intimataion, which PETA, and GreenPeace does.
I am working on raising my own food. I am starting with chickens. But, for those that don't wish to follow eat Koshier, at least it is done in a human way with blessings. See Deturotmy on how food must, be killed, and foods to be avoided. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 3:36:22 PM |
One being the fact that humans almost unanimously claim that the torture done in factory farms is not immoral.
I think it can be shown that eating meat is not necessary, it is unhealthy, and hard on the environment, so the only reason left is that it is done for pleasure.
Humans do not almost unanimously claim that any torture is not immoral. Maybe they just don't agree with your definition of torture. Your second point is arguable as well. Eating meat is not unhealthy. Meat and meat products can be very healthy. I would not be anywhere near as healthy as I am if I didn't eat them. Kinda hard to motivate yourself to eat beans every day to get your protein. Your roommates might complain too.  | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 4:23:28 PM | hi... I am sad when I hear that children are abused or starving, I am sad when I hear the same about animals.... it hurts me to kill even a spider and I could never throw paint on another human being.... being the change is better than forcing the change imho... God gave us free choice and we will all answer for our choices, this I have no doubt of ~or~ fear of because God sees intent and has Mercy, man sees only the surface ... many blessings for balance
"Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
Albert Einstein | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 4:45:52 PM | | Einstein might have been great at physics but stinks at nutrion. See above post. As far as, killing spiders; I have no problem in doing so. Spiders can harm me if they are the wrong kind, so why take a chance and kill em all. Spiders that come to mind are the brown recluse, and the camel spider. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 4:50:51 PM | A big, fat, juicy steak.... bbq'd to perfection (still pink and dripping in juices) with a side of roasted herb potatoes and sour cream whilst sipping on a dark malt lager..... encompassed by the rays of glorious sunshine and summer breeze, listening to the music of nature all around you.....
It just doesn't get any better than that.
If that makes me immoral, then so be it.
Guess this gal is going straight to hell in a hand basket.
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 5:57:55 PM | Ancientmuse......mmmm, sounds lovely... Gluttony... I do so hope your not a christian lol.;)
Not in this lifetime.
I'm just another run-of-the-mill meat devouring godless heathen.
.... but that's a whole other thread
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 6:40:00 PM |
A big, fat, juicy steak.... bbq'd to perfection (still pink and dripping in juices) with a side of roasted herb potatoes and sour cream whilst sipping on a dark malt lager..... encompassed by the rays of glorious sunshine and summer breeze, listening to the music of nature all around you.....
It just doesn't get any better than that.
If that makes me immoral, then so be it.
Guess this gal is going straight to hell in a hand basket.
Ugh! I think I might be the only semi-vegetarian on this this thread (except maybe for willow, whom I am not sure about, but we can't seem to agree amongst ourselves).
So ya'll should have a BBQ, hostessed by Ancientmuse, and make fun of the PETA people.
It is the only thing that makes sense at this point.
I will sit obnoxiously, eating my beans and rice... (tongue in cheek, or maybe even sticking out  ). | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 7:08:19 PM | I just hate a bunch of hot dogs and I have to admit that there was not even a second of it where I was thinking about this...
It is so much part of my habits that this kind of stuff never comes to mind...
Mind you, I couldn't afford being a vegetarian even if I wanted to. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 7:48:32 PM | In answer to the OPs original question...no. Morals and ethics are an artificial medium created by humans in order to get along in large numbers in small areas. The oddballs who are attempting to shove their ideals down our throats do not have answers when confronted with the tough questions...like what are we supoosed to feed everyone with? These same people tried to get milk outlawed. So, we come to the choices of who gets to live...who dies...and "they" sure aren't going to answewr...because they can't! They cannot back up their claims.
The talk about "factory farms"...yet they don't realize that farmers have to produce in order to stay in business...and they have to produce healthy animals.
IF they wish to live that kind of lifestyle...fine! Hope they have fun doing it! I also expect for them to leave ME and MINE alone! Keep their pitiful attempts to take the moral high ground to themselves. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 8:18:08 PM | yna6, you beat me to it! I was gonna post a similar comment!
Let me add that the reason we like meat is that we need it to survive. An animal that hated it's food would surely meet the nasty side of the evolutionary process. Really, liking to eat meat is not an act! | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 8/26/2009 8:24:58 PM |
Only humans are self aware, able to think in an abstract way, reason, feel compassion and empathy, have complex emotional structures. Animals don't have dreams and aspirations, morals or compassion, no more than insects do. For example, when you harvest one of the cows, the rest of the herd doesn't feel incredible sorrow for the lost one. They don't continue to suffer and think about it for years or even the rest of their lives. They don't think at all in the way we do.
From different stories I've heard over the years, as well as my own interactions with animals in my personal life, my belief is that animals certainly are capable of emotions, compassion, etc. I would suggest that it is humans who - for the most part - do not understand the complexities of animal communication, body language and emotions. For instance, in Scotland during the late 1800's there was a dog by the name of Greyfriar's Bobby who mourned his owner's passing for over 14 years, constantly visiting the final resting place where his owner was buried, lying next to the grave. The townspeople took care of him by leaving food out, but the dog remained loyal to his owner for the rest of his life.
In an incident that happened several months ago in Chile and was captured by a surveillance camera, two dogs had wandered onto a busy highway, and one of them was struck by a car. The other dog, rather than fleeing - as instinct would have an animal do in such a stressful situation - circled back when he realized that the first dog had been struck, and not only remained with the mortally injured canine, but was seen on the video footage actually trying to pull the other dog to safety amid the speeding traffic.
I used to own a cat who was quite devoted to me, as many pets are with their owners. Devotion can come from associating an owner with food/shelter, but there is also a bond that forms which can become quite strong as well. Interestingly, one event I recall took place not long after my husband and I separated. Snooch, my cat, had been close with both of us; often he would greet my ex (then husband) at the door when he came home from work, purring and jumping into his lap, and would curl up and sleep in his arms. However, one day not long after our separation my ex showed up at the house unannounced, and as soon as Snooch heard his voice he came running out to the kitchen. My ex saw him and called out to Snooch, who was skidding into the room full speed ahead...yet when Snooch looked at my ex he suddenly stopped in mid-flight, stared at him for several moments, and - despite my ex urging him to go over - Snooch turned tail and left the room. Never again did Snooch let my ex go near him. I do believe my cat was very sensitive to my emotions, as I'd been going through an extremely rough time over the breakup, and he connected my sadness and upset with my ex. And despite my exe's attempts several times after that to approach Snooch, that cat stood his ground, and completely severed all ties with him.
All pets I've had - past and present - have communicated their emotions to me quite well. Sometimes they've had to 'repeat themselves' to get me to understand, but if I pay attention and watch as well as listen, I understand them. This is something that goes beyond the claims of transference of human emotions onto our pets - which some people mistakenly do; but if one studies, experiences and pays attention to animal species they will realize that beyond instinctive actions and reactions, there also are emotions and personalities involved that are as widely distinctive as they are in humans. | |
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