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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/2/2009 6:40:16 PM |
Dr. Mercola may be out there on the edge of medicine, but he is a licensed practicing doctor, and most of what I have read on his website is sound nutritional advice I have been hearing for years from many reliable sources. I have only just heard of Dr. Mercola in the last few months, but I find his information, although strident, very helpful. The reason I chose his article is because he sums up so much information in about two pages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola
Idioform,
You seem to be a very well-educated and intellingent person but I can't believe anyone who has studies psychology can't spot narcissistic hucksters like Mercola. He's an osteopath, not an MD. That should be your first hint that this guy is not up to speed on modern science. He's also been warned twice by the FDA for dangerous practices. (BTW, the FDA has lots and lots and lots of MDs and Ph.D.'s working there so why do you trust one person so easily?)
Also, even peer-reviewed articles don't have "facts" as you call them. They have findings which don't become accepted until they are confirmed by other independent researchers. It does not good to cite article after article unless such articles have been confirmed in that fashion.
Please don't be so naive. Especially about health. Modern medicine has amassed a heck of a lot of information. It may appear monolithic and untrustworthy but they know what they're doing. Here's a fact, the average lifespan of the US population has been increasing at an accelerating rate over the past forty years. Why do you think that is? | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/2/2009 7:02:01 PM | Greg:
"Your background can't be considered a credential unless you are an aspartame researcher. I also was in pre-med, and med school, and residency....and i dont claim to be an aspartame expert....but i DO know which people to trust. "
I'm not claiming to be an aspartame expert.
And if you aren't claiming to be one either, then why are we continuing to discuss aspartame as if this is a peer-reviewed article being prepared for publication?
This is a discussion of ethics on a dating site forum. I made a small reference in a post that aspartame acts as a neurotransmitter. Which it does.
I only posted more because it was requested. Anybody can do their own Google searches and come to their own conclusions and then post them. But I really suggest that you take this argument "outside" and put it into a separate thread in, perhaps say the Health and Wellness Forum.
You can research the subject all you want and then publish a study to help to defend the Mansanto corporation from my scruitiny because they need so much help with that, it seems. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/2/2009 8:50:24 PM |
He's an osteopath, not an MD. That should be your first hint that this guy is not up to speed on modern science.
Uhhh, I'm going to argue with you on this point. I know a bunch of D.O.s, and they are doing the same jobs in the same hospitals as their M.D. brethren. It's a parallel educational system with very comparable educators and graduates. The three D.O.s to whom I am most closely, personally related are practicing; 1: Internal Medicine; 2: Neurosurgery; and 3: Toxicology and Emergency Medicine.
My Tox friend is, in fact, considered a regional authority/"pro" and speaks all around the world at least twice a year. (She's going to Spain in a few weeks, and just got back from Vietnam.)
The belief that Osteopathic Physicians are less educated than M.D.s is outdated, as demonstrated by the certification of D.O.s in all specialties in all medical licensing divisions of the USA.
That said, there are idiots and quacks in any field, as Sign can attest to over in the Evolution thread. (Voss, for example) | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/2/2009 9:06:21 PM |
The belief that Osteopathic Physicians are less educated than M.D.s is outdated, as demonstrated by the certification of D.O.s in all specialties in all medical licensing divisions of the USA.
true. I work with many D.O.'s who are more than capable. But there is still an issue here that is not yet outdated. Osteopathic schools are much easier to get into than M.D. schools. Typically, if a student is rejected by an M.D. school, one alternative is to apply to D.O, where the requirements are not as rigorous. As a consequences, i have witnessed SOME problems with the clinical skills of a FEW D.O.'s. But this seems to be the exception, not the rule.
I think if D.O. school revamped its entrence requirements, and made them comparable to M.D. school (allopathic), then they would truly be parallel.
greg | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/3/2009 6:43:12 PM | I'm going to argue with you on this point.
That's why we're here.
I know a bunch of D.O.s, and they are doing the same jobs in the same hospitals as their M.D. brethren
Except surgery. But, hey, what's that?
I may be unfair but my perception of DO is based on personal experience. Poor man's MD. Maybe I haven't met the same ones you know. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/7/2009 9:09:30 AM |
Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Absolutely freaking NO!
I for one have had it with the "Holier than Thou's" telling the meat eaters how wrong, stupid, ingnorant and fat we are because we do not see it THEIR way. Apparently, we are better humans and can think more clearly. And that is so kind compared to what you people throw at the rest of us. Maybe we will start revolting. You wouldn't like that, would you?
SS | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/7/2009 9:26:02 AM |
I know a bunch of D.O.s, and they are doing the same jobs in the same hospitals as their M.D. brethren Except surgery. But, hey, what's that? I may be unfair but my perception of DO is based on personal experience. Poor man's MD. Maybe I haven't met the same ones you know.
Ummm... I'm guessing you haven't met any D.O. surgeons, so perhaps that's where you get the completely mistaken impression that D.O.s aren't practicing surgery, including (pointing up) neurosurgery.
That said, I've met some idiots who were M.D.s, and some who were D.O.s. I've met a bunch of idiots with PhDs, too. So what? | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/7/2009 12:25:45 PM |
I'm guessing you haven't met any D.O. surgeons, so perhaps that's where you get the completely mistaken impression that D.O.s aren't practicing surgery, including (pointing up) neurosurgery.
That's very true. I don't konw of any DO that do surgery, unless they had an M.D. as well. I've lived in a state (PA) where they are not permitted to do surgery, or so I was told..by the DOs themselves. In any case, I would in no way allow a DO to do surgery on me or mine. I could be wrong.
That said, I've met some idiots who were M.D.s, and some who were D.O.s. I've met a bunch of idiots with PhDs, too. So what?
So have I. Then again, your original rebuttal to what I said used extensive travel as a testament for competence. That was shocking. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/7/2009 12:53:52 PM | | It's like this. The two year old will someday develop into a hopefully intelligent moral human that is able to pursue it's happiness and security without blowing up others. The cow, the asparagus, and PETA will not. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/7/2009 2:39:09 PM | So have I. Then again, your original rebuttal to what I said used extensive travel as a testament for competence. That was shocking.
"Asked to speak at conferences in the field all around the world" is a little more than "extensive travel."
Also, your assertion that D.O.s cannot perform surgery in PA is, as I stated, outdated. There are three right here, and this is just the first page I came up with searching for D.O. surgeons in PA: http://www.cssurgicalspecialists.com/subpages/providers.html
Is there some reason you're so dead-set on maintaining your prejudice? | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/7/2009 4:26:12 PM |
"Asked to speak at conferences in the field all around the world" is a little more than "extensive travel."
Not really. I could manage to be asked to speak in my field all around the world. I know my boss would't approve expenses, though. That's not an indication of competence, merely ingenuity.
Also, your assertion that D.O.s cannot perform surgery in PA is, as I stated, outdated.
No surprise there. It's been a long time since I had to choose a DO over and MD. I used to live in the styx, near Philly, where DOs were plentiful but MDs were not. The DOs I met there did much toward forming my view of them.
I find it farcical that a DO is given so much credibility when rebuking every other branch of medical practice, pharmacology and pharmacy. It's very entry level and such a person doesn't have the credentials to make the statements he's making. Do you disagree with that?
Is there some reason you're so dead-set on maintaining your prejudice?
I don't need to until I need surger andy only a DO is available and they're qualified. In the meantime, I'm pretty much as you and assess each person as I come across them. Obviously, the DOs I've met were not as practiced or trained as the MDs I've met.
I'll try to keep an open mind, though, and not be as reticent to submit to a DO's care as I would have been before this conversation. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/8/2009 6:26:27 AM |
Apparently, we are better humans and can think more clearly. And that is so kind compared to what you people throw at the rest of us.
"Better humans" in what sense? What specifically do you mean when you claim that these "better humans" "can think more clearly"?
Maybe we will start revolting.
What makes you think you aren't revolting already? What would you do, eat vegetarians? 
You wouldn't like that, would you?
Frankly Scarlet, I wouldn't give a damn. I'm a carnivore myself; I just have the decency to feel bad for the animals I eat, and to appreciate the unwilling sacrifice of their lives for the sake of my decadent, gluttonous palate that doesn't even need the meat to survive. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/8/2009 8:31:15 PM |
In fact PETA is practically considered a terrorist organization because it stands in opposition to our society's position on animal rights.
As far as I'm concerned, PETA *is* a terrorist organisation - not "practically" about it.
But that is not because of their beliefs - it is because of their tactics and their behaviour.
As I said in another thread ..... I have no problem with you risking your life for your beliefs. I do, however, have a very BIG problem with you risking somebody else's life for your beliefs. And that is exactly what PETA does with a lot of their bullshit.
Personally, I find it much easier to admit to my immorality and lack of authenticity, than to lie to myself. I will never proclaim that decent, ethical people, fighting a just cause for animal rights, are "terrorists" out to destroy our way of life; I know better; do you?
We're omnivores. We're *designed* to eat meat. Morality has nothing to do with it.
As far as people in PETA being "decent, ethical people" is concerned .... what is so ethical - or moral - about endangering the lives of the animals they claim they're trying to save when they pull one of their release stunts? How do they gain moral superiority when they put people's lives at risk? Are you trying to claim moral superiority because they risk people's lives, instead of animal's lives?
I think your moral compass has been sitting a wee bit too close to a loadstone, because it seems to be spinning in circles, without pointing in any predictable direction. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 216 | |
| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/8/2009 8:44:02 PM |
As far as I'm concerned, PETA *is* a terrorist organisation - not "practically" about it.
But that is not because of their beliefs - it is because of their tactics and their behaviour.
This makes the answer to the thread title a resounding "no".
decent, ethical people, fighting a just cause for animal rights
An interesting irony to PETA objecting to any form of medical trials using animals is the fact that PETA Senior Vice President MaryBeth Sweetland must use insulin to stay alive, a diabetes therapy arrived at via animal trials. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/8/2009 8:45:29 PM | PETA is not only a terrorist organization but an incedibly incompetent one at that.
PETA once liberated a bevy of minks from a farm. (http://lists.envirolink.org/pipermail/ar-news/Week-of-Mon-20030908/006104.html). That doesn't trouble me because the fur looks better on minks than on the back of a human. However, minks are amazing predators. The minks they released literally ate the countryside for miles around...then starved to death.
Way to go, PETA! Helluva way to make a point! | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/9/2009 12:55:14 PM | Please do start a new thread then. I don't have the courage to because it seems to be such a controversial subject. You are braver than I am in posing any question with regard to PETA, because controversy is what they trade in, and they are good at it!
Animal rights is a concept not original to PETA. It was proposed by a professional philosopher and ethicist. PETA then took the concept and made an activist organization around it. As far as natural law, you would have to define specifically what you mean by that, or be prepared for that definition to be part of the debate.
Nobody wants morals to be rated on a scale of one to ten, or on any kind of a comparison basis, as you do in this thread. This in itself is the basis of much of the conflict in the world.
I would think that most people develop morality as they mature both physically and mentally, and also as a culture. Comparing morality among different groups then, is like comparing people at various levels of physical development. You don't ask children the same questions you ask adults, and you can't discuss morality in the same way with people who have very different basic premises about the nature of reality, the nature of humanity, and the nature and purpose of life itself.
Also, some people have studied the usual ideas about morality and ethics, and this also changes the way people think about morality. So people who deal with moral/ethical issues in their jobs or have education about it often are used to debating this topic within certain guidelines that the "lay" person doesn't hold to (and doesn't have to hold to, either.)
I am in no way saying that certain types of moral ideas are more "childlike" than others. And if I did say that, it might even be a compliment, because children approach things with an innocence and wisdom we often loose in adulthood. Some adults might learn from children, (and do learn much from children.)
I just re-read "The Little Prince" by Antoine De Saint-Exupery. It is about what really matters. I love that little book. It tamed me. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 220 | |
| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/9/2009 1:05:43 PM | Please do start a new thread then.
This thread is already inclusive of both Vegan and PETA concerns, there IS overlap here, and often the agendas parallel. It would just be redundant.
There's nothing at all wrong with being vegan, it's a personal choice based on one's own ethics and morality, when one is an "activist for veganism", much of the same critique of PETA applies, in regards to trying to force one's personal ethics/morality on others. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/9/2009 1:29:02 PM |
I just re-read "The Little Prince" by Antoine De Saint-Exupery. It is about what really matters. I love that little book. It tamed me.
Omg! That is one of my favorite books!!! It is deceptively simplistic...
There's nothing at all wrong with being vegan, it's a personal choice based on one's own ethics and morality, when one is an "activist for veganism", much of the same critique of PETA applies, in regards to trying to force one's personal ethics/morality on others.
I kinda feel like it has been some of the meat-eating posters, who have been the most vociferous in "forcing" their beliefs on others... | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 222 | |
| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/9/2009 1:31:26 PM |
I kinda feel like it has been some of the meat-eating posters, who have been the most vociferous in "forcing" their beliefs on others...
Interesting, who has argued that not eating meat is unethical and immoral? | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/9/2009 1:56:33 PM |
Interesting, who has argued that not eating meat is unethical and immoral?
Okay...you got me there. I guess I was responding to the "I am eating meat right now, and I feel good about it" references, in which I was equally responsive in "I am eating beans and rice, and the meat you are eating was probably tortured, how is that meat tasting now?". It was a general tone that I was picking up on, but might be the result of projection.
I freely admit that I can be hypocritical at times.
However I don't judge people on their choices...my children are voracious carnivores, and while I choose a different diet, I still support their decision. | |
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| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/9/2009 8:05:09 PM |
"This thread is already inclusive of both Vegan and PETA concerns, there IS overlap here, and often the agendas parallel. It would just be redundant."
So are you saying that you are going to report any new thread as redundant if it is framed in such a way as to avoid the contentious PETA discussion, and instead focus on animal rights and natural law?
As a former vegan, I can say that I had never even considered anything about the PETA organization when I made the change, and I never identified with them as a group during the time I remained vegan (about a year.) And yes, we probably have a lot of similar ideas in common, but we differ widely in how to express those ideas and act on them.
So sure, you might be able to make a statement like, "All PETA members are vegans." but if you could verify that, you would probably be wrong. And you might say, "All vegans have similar agendas as the PETA organization." but you would probably be wrong on that, too. If you were to poll every member of PETA and every vegan separately, and were able to verify what they said about themselves, you would probably find that you can't make the blanket statement about either group's "shared agenda."
In some ways, I think it is the bias of people who eat meat who see it that way, because for one thing, they simply don't care enough about the issue to really read up on what PETA is all about or to read up on what vegans are about. They only know what they see that ends up in the news. They kind of lump the two together because they sound a lot the same, but from the angle of being in one of those groups, it seems like there are many differences. And if you point out those differences, they get minimised and dismissed. (Because, probably, they make a minimal difference to non-vegetarians.)
Or people may know one Very Vocal Vegan, (VVV) and judge them all by what that person is like, when there are many others who are not speaking publicly about it at all.
When I was vegan I didn't tell anybody at all. I just did it. I was not looking for anyone's comments, or checking with anyone to see if I would offend them. I didn't think of it as a religion, or morally superior, or try to convert anyone else. I felt that what I ate or not was my business, and I granted the same to everyone else. I was not ashamed by it, or worried about it's ultimate affect on my life, either. I didn't feel the need for "support" from other vegans, either. It isn't, after all, a disease.
On the other hand, when people in this country start eating meat, nobody says anything. Nobody checks to see how you are doing with this meat-eating thing. It isn't labeled a fad, or weird, or deemed too expensive, and nobody seems to care in what way it will affect your health. It is assumed that all children, and I mean all, will start life out eating meat as soon as humanly possible. Nobody asks the child for his or her opinion about the matter. The individual's opinion when begining to eat meat isn't considered relevant at all.
If the child refuses to eat meat, then the pediatrician is called, maybe a nutritionist. It is considered very bad to refuse meat as a child. The parents are questioned. Parenting issues are discussed, the parents are blamed, shamed, and go to ridiculous lengths to make their child "eat normally."
If we go on in this thread, does it really matter who is more moral? Maybe we can rephrase the question a few different ways on this thread. I suggest simply asking whether or not animals have rights. Or should have rights.
I will answer my own question right now, and say that...
We are animals and we have rights. So maybe by determining the part of us that we share with animals we can determine what rights animals might be given (by humans to animals.)
But animals might have value to the universe, or to the spiritual aspect of the universe (some people call God,) in addition to those granted to our animal side, and regardless of what we as humans decide.
Now all the VVV's can speak up if there are any out there....
I know there are some pretty Vociferous Non-Vegetarians (VNV's) out there already.
Maybe the VVVs and the VNVs can continue on here and let the PETAs sit out for a while. Particularly since no one has admitted to being one or even really representing one on this thread anyway.
"... in regards to trying to force one's personal ethics/morality on others."
Besides, no one can force anyone to do anything. This is a big topic on almost any thread here. So we can all do our own promoting of our own views but without the "forcing" of the issue that an activist organization tries to do. For one thing, anything like that is forbidden by the Forum rules anyway. | |
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late™
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Joined: 1/9/2005
Msg: 225 | |
| Are vegans and PETA more moral and ethical than society?
Posted: 9/9/2009 9:57:01 PM |
So are you saying that you are going to report any new thread as redundant if it is framed in such a way as to avoid the contentious PETA discussion, and instead focus on animal rights and natural law?
Absolutely, as an "Animal Rights" thread already exists.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts8949275.aspx
This forum is archival in nature (hence the redundancy rule), it's also a discourtesy to negate user's existing contributions to this topic, which isn't very ethical or moral if you think about it.
If the child refuses to eat meat, then the pediatrician is called, maybe a nutritionist. It is considered very bad to refuse meat as a child. The parents are questioned. Parenting issues are discussed, the parents are blamed, shamed, and go to ridiculous lengths to make their child "eat normally."
Oh really? I refused to eat meat as a child, and didn't eat it until post adolescence, nothing like the consequences you outlined above happened.
"... in regards to trying to force one's personal ethics/morality on others."
Besides, no one can force anyone to do anything.
That's not what I said, nice straw man, but no sale.
I said:
"There's nothing at all wrong with being vegan, it's a personal choice based on one's own ethics and morality, when one is an "activist for veganism", much of the same critique of PETA applies, in regards to trying to force one's personal ethics/morality on others."
Notice that the above has nothing to do with forcing anybody to do anything, think "templates". | |
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