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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/31/2009 9:20:58 AM |
That's quite detailed information. But it is NOT mentioned in every discussion of Santa Claus.
Scorps your methodology of contesting a claim via a “gentle push” of the contender in the right direction so as to uncover evidence to the contrary, is indeed a good strategy. It appears beyond doubt, that there is no basis for claiming what the colours of the robes worn by the Wise Men were, nor is it written that there were even “three” of them. I can only say that my understanding was a residual left over from early childhood Anglican Sunday School classes. Such is the folly of religious indoctrination of the developing human brain in not yet fully cognisant children. Surely a crime on par with paedophilia but nonetheless supported by parents and still continues unchecked to this day.
Accordingly, I stand duly rebuked regarding the colours of Santa’s suit. Touché.
However the assertion that the colours were originated by Coca-Cola has also been soundly refuted by Snopes.com;
Illustrations of lavishly bearded Santas (and his predecessors), showing figures clothed in red suits (and hats), with white fur trimming, held together with broad black belts, were also common long before Coca-Cola’s advertisement first appeared, as evidenced by these examples from, 1906, 1908 and 1925, respectively; http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/santa/cocacola.asp
That’s not saying that Coca-Cola didn’t play a part in Santa Claus’s successful coup d’état of Saint Nicholas, as Coke played a major part in the world-wide popularisation of the secular Santa Claus.
As to Father Christmas; yes Father Christmas originally wore green but that was associated with his original persona of “Old Winter” in the original Pagan Druidism religious beliefs of the UK that went back hundreds of years before the adoption of Christianity. With the ever pervasive US culture, Old Winter popularly morphed into Father Christmas in red devoid of his green coat in full unison with the secular US style commercialism that birthed Santa Claus as opposed to the original Saint Nicholas of Christianity.
I do wonder though Scorp, if your “scoff” of Bishop Nicholas had anything to do with his participation in Council of Nicene that had declared the Christian doctrine of Jesus as the Trinity of father, son and holy ghost and so Christian sects which had maintained a Jewish outlook towards the Jewish laws and customs were now declared heretical.
By defining Jesus as God and making Jews killers of God, faithful Christians could now be justified in mounting massive persecutions and pogroms against the God-killing Jews, from around 3rd century AD onward?
Perhaps I digress too far? | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/31/2009 4:12:22 PM | Actually, the most pervasive colour associated with the "original" Santa Claus was blue and this stems not from the Celtic beliefs but from the indigenous beliefs of the Germanic peoples.
In fact, the basic image of the Old World "Father Christimas" was of a tall, lean old man dressed in blue. This corresponds to the Germanic deity Woden (Old Norse - Odhinn), who was in fact also known as the YuleFather of old. Like most of the Germanic deities, Woden was believed to live in the "North". He was also known to lead a procession of spirits "and" elves through the heavens over the winter months, riding an eight-legged horse (obviously) capable of travelling through the sky, and reciprocal gift-giving was at the core of all his relationships. Amongst the Anglo-Saxons another one of his by-names was Wusc-frea or the Lord of Wishes.
Many of our modern day Yuletide customs do in fact stem from Germanic heathenism; which was a powerful force in Western Europe from the 5th century forward and who's conversion was muchly facilitated by a papal "Policy of Accomodation", as made glaringly evident in letters written by the Popes (to various missionaries, eg. Mellitus, Boniface) in the 7th and 8th centuries CE. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/1/2009 5:06:44 AM | That is it! I am Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Cash Cow, the maid, the cook, the referee, the Law, and the Provider in my house. The big mystery of life has been solved.
There are some people that worship Oprah and cry when you make comments about her. WAAAAHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!! | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/1/2009 3:32:39 PM | //Bright Spark://Sadly though, alot of unfortunate people skipping about today 'actually' believe that the historical Jesus was 'actually' the son of God and not just a man like the rest of us.
Jesus was without doubt one of the greatest philosphers of history. He understood the age old ideal of the ONE. Was he the son of God? Of course, just as me and you are. If God is ONE, then there is nothing that is seperate from Him, and there is noone that is seperate from anyone else. "I am in him and you are in me"(Jesus). This understanding has been around way before Jesus' time, and is even found in eastern philosophy. However, we can use REASON and other facts of information to see how Jesus is unique. He was prophosized about before He came, with immaculate accuracy. He preformed miracles that thousands of eyewitness testify to. And most important, He reserected Himself. Not just to his friends, hundreds of people saw Jesus after His death. Including His very enemies who wished Him dead and then fought to the death for His word after the resurection. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/1/2009 6:15:43 PM |
"I am in him and you are in me"(Jesus). This understanding has been around way before Jesus' time, and is even found in eastern philosophy.
And is even found in Eastern philosophy..........huh?
Where do you think Jesus Christ is from? | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/1/2009 6:34:07 PM | The topic of this thread reminds me of the cartoon Invader Zim.
"Raise the shields kids! Santa is returning from outer space!" | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/11/2009 9:05:43 PM | Santa Claus and Zeus.
People are prepared to discuss these obvious myths nowadays and we all look very foolish.
However no one dares challenge the fact that something very sinister goes on underneath a ladder.
How many of you non believers walks under a ladder.
You know there is "something" malevolent there lurking, waiting for you.
You know it is irrational yet I guarantee you never walk under a ladder because you know that something sinister is there.
Waiting for irrational and rational alike.
Sve me from the ladderman! | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/12/2009 7:23:23 AM | Thankyou for addressing my message in a thoughtful way 'airbornemedik'.
You love Jesus.
you say that Jesus is the son of God as we all are.
I take it that you love all of Gods children.
Jesus walked about the earth as we all do.
Tell me, do you love the prophet Mohammed as much as you love Jesus?... He is one of Gods children aswell is he not? | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/12/2009 7:37:15 AM | RE Msg: 26 by Chiny®™©:
That's quite detailed information. But it is NOT mentioned in every discussion of Santa Claus. Scorps your methodology of contesting a claim via a “gentle push” of the contender in the right direction so as to uncover evidence to the contrary, is indeed a good strategy.
In this case, the suit of Santa Claus might be red due to the Wise Men. But it would not matter. When we consider ALL the evidence, such as what knowledge future generations might have access to, it is reasonable to see that just as we only have a tiny amount of the knowledge of Jesus' time that was held in the Library of Alexandria, future generations would likely have only a tiny amount of the knowledge of OUR time. The knowldge they would be most probable to find, would be the knowledge found in most documents of our time, the most common ideas, even if they were entirely erroneous. Given how so many documents of our time are found in media-driven hype, they're probably far more likely to base their ideas on that. Without quite a large amount of documents, they might not even be aware that most of the documents in our time, like Heat magazine, are media-driven hype, and might even think our civilisation is based on that.
It appears beyond doubt, that there is no basis for claiming what the colours of the robes worn by the Wise Men were, nor is it written that there were even “three” of them. I can only say that my understanding was a residual left over from early childhood Anglican Sunday School classes.
...
Accordingly, I stand duly rebuked regarding the colours of Santa’s suit. Touché.
However the assertion that the colours were originated by Coca-Cola has also been soundly refuted by Snopes.com;
I never heard where the red suit came from as a youth. I only heard recently that it was because Santa was used by Coca-Cola adverts a lot, and that they used a red suit because Coca-Cola is sold in red cans, to associate the good feelings that most have about Santa with drinking Coca-Cola. I am happy to accept that it did not come from there. But Snopes is not a site that most people ever seem to mention, and not in any media like TV, or newspapers, that I've seen. But Wikipedia, and Google, are. So, Snopes could be entirely correct. But in the future, probably no-one will have HEARD of Snopes. So it really won't stop anyone in the future from thinking that Santa's red suit DOES come from Coca-Cola. Such is the power of only having SOME of the facts, something that WE know is hugely true about us.
Such is the folly of religious indoctrination of the developing human brain in not yet fully cognisant children. Surely a crime on par with paedophilia but nonetheless supported by parents and still continues unchecked to this day. If we are to describe education in the young as "the folly of religious indoctrination of the developing human brain in not yet fully cognisant children", and as a crime on a par with paedophilia, I believe we MUST testify to "the WHOLE truth", and not just cherry-pick the evidence we wish, to present our own arguments. In the concept of education in the young, there is no reason to separate religious education from any other form. So, if we are to be accurate, our hypothesis would be that ALL education in the young is indoctrination, and is on a crime with paedophilia. The ONLY things that we can definitely say are not indoctrination on a par with paedophilia, would be those things that are 100% true, and that are NOT presented in a way that suggests erroneous and hugely damaging conclusions.
Take capitalism. There is no 100% proof that capitalism is better than communism. Even the fall of the U.S.S.R. does not suggest this, because Marx wrote that communism will only work once the WHOLE world adopts communism. So we have no definite proof that communism DOES work. However, capitalism IS pointed out to many young developing minds, as being the ONLY reasonable economic system that we should adopt. Further, communism is tied into commercialism and consumerism, to the extent that many people seem to me, to believe that one cannot have one without the other two. However, no mention is made in school of learning how to budget and how to be responsible with one's spending habits, and to use consumerism sparingly, as too much spending drives people into crippling debts, as we've seen today in the recent Credit Crunch. So we see that capitalism is also used to promote erroneous and hugely damaging conclusions. This is not the fault of an abstract concept like capitalism. This is what WE do with it, how WE teach it to the developing minds of the young.
As you can see, this idea of extremely harmful indoctrination of the young occurs in other things than religion.
However, once we accept this conclusion, we must then ask ourselves: how much else is harmful indoctrination of the young? Actually, quite a lot. I'd say that most of the secular things we are taught as children are false, or at least taught in a way that represents additional values that are extremely harmful to people in the long-term.
Also, consider that 90% of the lives of religious people, are work, eating, sleeping, watching TV, reading newspapers, reading and posting on forums, and other activities that secular people do, and so pretty much the same ways that religious people do. So in reality, the things that we do that are religious in nature, and so are influenced to do due to religious education, is actually quite small indeed, and the things that we do that are secular in nature, and so are influenced to do by secular education, is actually very large. When we do that, we might indeed call much of education to be indoctrination. But we realise that 90% of that harm comes from secular education, not religious, and so, it only makes sense that 90% of our calls for the removal of such indoctrination would be against secular education, and only the minority would be against religious education.
I'm all for that. The only problem that I see, is that most such claims are made against religious education and NOT secular education, and that gives those who want to indoctrinate our children the knowledge that as long as they use secular education to push their beliefs, they can commit the most atrocious and desctructive indoctrinations, with our blessing. That is something I've had to learn to accept. I used to ask why people kept claiming religion was the problem, and kept letting secular "pushers" abuse kids. But then I realised that it was "pushers" who pushed the idea that it was religion that was the problem in the first place, because they saw the main power of authority in our society is science, which is secular, not religious, and so they decided to go with the most powerful way of getting kids to accept their messages, by using the most powerful power of authority in our time, and to promote the knocking of religion, so everyone would not suspect secular sources. I find it sickening to use knowledge in such a way. But I have to admire their crafty use of propaganda to make themselves even more successful at indoctrination and abuse than they were using religious sources. These indoctrinators are incredibly clever.
It is up to you what you choose. Don't believe me. Analyse what you were taught. Ask yourself how much of your secular education could you find a way to disprove. If you can disprove it, then it's not definitely true. If it's been presented as definitely true, when it can be disproved, then it's indoctrination. Once you see just how much of your secular education is indoctrination, you'll decide if what you wrote, and what you think, needs an overhaul, or a tune-up. From everyone I've spoken to, they either react with anger, and call me a heretic, or they say secular indoctrination is far bigger than even I claim. I leave it to you to decide what your opinion is.
I do wonder though Scorp, if your “scoff” of Bishop Nicholas had anything to do with his participation in Council of Nicene that had declared the Christian doctrine of Jesus as the Trinity of father, son and holy ghost and so Christian sects which had maintained a Jewish outlook towards the Jewish laws and customs were now declared heretical. I didn't know that Bishop Nicholas had anything to do with it.
By defining Jesus as God and making Jews killers of God, faithful Christians could now be justified in mounting massive persecutions and pogroms against the God-killing Jews, from around 3rd century AD onward? Not my view, because prior to the Council of Nicene in 325, Jews had been persecuted by the non-Christian Romans, being crucified in their thousands, and being burned alive, and many other ways, for hundreds of years. Once the Romans embraced Christianity, those persecutions continued, by the same peoples. The only difference was that before, they called themselves Romans, and after they embraced Christianity, they called themselves Christians. But the persecution continued regardless. So in my view, the persecution of Jews was just a part of Roman culture, that felt threatened by anyone who didn't embrace Romantica, as that would challenge their notion that the values of Roman Society were superior to any other, and that anyone who wasn't part of Roman Society was an ignorant and primitive savage, scrabbling around in the dirt, and that when they felt threatened, they went to war, and wiped out or imprisoned all of the "enemy". The only thing that changed was the gods they worshipped. But their values were the same. From what I see of our society, who are the descendants of the Roman Empire, that value has continued and thrived to this day. The only difference is that now, Jews are embracing American values, and so aren't the enemy, it's people in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Russia, Cuba, and China, that aren't, and so are the enemy. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/13/2009 7:29:38 PM | Yep,****ns had him dressed in green in A Christmas Carol. Or at least the Ghost of Christmans present was.
Clark Clement Moore...who great granddaughter is an aquaintance of mine...had him dressed all in fur.
You'd better not pout,
You'd better not cry.
You'd better watch out, I' m a'tellin' you why.
Santa Claus is dead. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/13/2009 8:05:37 PM | | The notion of human history being around in 5000 years makes me laugh. The hardest thing to imagine is human history going on for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of more years. That's impossible. We see around us the processes that make history a self-limiting game. History is some kind of a phase transition. It only lasts about 25,000 years. It's a snap. One moment you're hunting ungulates on the plains of Africa, and the next moment you're hurdling a golden terbium super conducting extra stellar device toward Alpha Centura with all of mankind aboard in virtual space being run as a simulation in circuitry. It's just first one thing, then the other thing." | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/18/2009 11:35:10 AM | Are they going to know that Santa Claus was nothing more than a fairy tale, or could they confuse him as a shared belief held by all. Could they actually consider him a god to us and create an elabborate story about how we neanderthals believed in this magical man and that he was a god with powers.
I think a much more interesting question is if the human race suffers a major hit, only relatively few people are left, and in 2000 years from now they uncover pictures of humans flying thru the air (airplanes), visiting the moon (space travel), talking great distances (radio,tv), etc, etc, if they will think we we were gods.
Maybe it happened before. Maybe that's where the narratives of the "Ancient Gods" had their origin.
Food for thought.
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/19/2009 11:38:28 AM | OP
Let it be recorded that on this day, September 19, 2009, AD, at precisely 11:31, Mountain Standard Time, the individual known as Krebby2001 said nothing bad about Santa Claus.
And if ol Santa is reading this, don't forget the Blackberry that I want for Christmas. My daughter has a more extensive list, far too long to record on these pages.
On thread, several posters have stated that "recorded history" will put Ol Santa and Zeus in their proper contexts. But I wonder what recorded history will survive, say, a nuclear holocaust, will survive eons of deterioration if mankind is destroyed and then it's "rediscovered" by new inhabitants from a far planet, or inhabitants who survived but do not have adequate means to "decipher" all forms of "recorded history."
Certainly the Mayans, the Aztecs, Eqyptians, etc., recording their history on the most endurable devices of their day (stone), must have felt assured that their "true story" would survive to eternity. After much anthropological struggle, only a "subset" of the meaning of those messages are "understood." And this is a relatively short span of time.
I would not assume that there will be a "continuity" of recorded history if, for some reason, our known "civilizations" were somehow discontinued. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/27/2009 9:46:44 PM |
First is his eternal perspective. The Bible says unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. The son is not born, the child is born. The son is given because the son eternally existed. He prays in his high priestly prayer “restore to me the glory Father that I had in your presence before this world was made.”
In "the gospel of Scotland's greatest gift" I am lauded as well.
Jesus is the only creature in existence as part of the God head whose reason for existence is in him-self. Jesus fuses every moment of history with meaning. If he is transcending over time, if he is the eternal “I Am” and is always ever present then he fuses all time with meaning.
I am part of the god-head too. Wait 5000 years. I will have filled all that time with meaning too.
Second is his internal imperative. He did not come to set up a political power that would rule and constrain from without. He came to touch the hearts of men and women that would bring the imperative from within.
Setting it up right here (obviously).
Napoleon said “Alexander’s kingdom and my kingdom will ultimately come to not, but Jesus’ kingdom is indestructible because ours was dominated by power and force. He has dominated the life of people with the power of love.
Go ahead, ask. I am very well loved on Plenty of Fish.
Third is his personal directive. As vast as this world is, as vast is this world was, Christ had time for the individual. His message is personal in the cosmic scheme of things how marvelous it is that he has time for you and me.
I have time for you. Post and see if I don't respond.
Forth is his inspirational incentive. How his existence has influenced and inspired people throughout time, from then to today.
I bet I'm influencing you right now, as, and because you read this.
Fifth is his incarnational distinctive. As the word became flesh and dwelt among us full of grace and truth.
"Vichycycl." That's a word. I am flesh. I have not lied to you ever, and I would share some gorgeous Beethoven with you by playing my trumpet. It's pretty graceful.
I still don't think you've clarified how your guy is more memorable. Could you point me to a reason to contrast me and your guy in the sense the OP intended? | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/28/2009 3:05:51 AM | About the ladder .... I am of a feisty nature and i was in a theatre helping rigging lights and the roadies had set up a long tall ladder between the seats . Sapristi , I said ....Watch me ...... and I walked under the ladder seconds before , miliseconds before a klieg light fell . I heard the whoosh and felt the wind as it passed . You will not get me to walk under a ladder again . My answer to it all is I flew in the face of some force which operates to control hubris . [Love that word , borrowed it from a friend .] | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 9/28/2009 1:44:25 PM |
I respect your opinion, however its important to remember that an opinion should be the result of thought and not a substitute for it. People may arguably suggest that Jesus wasn't the Son of God, but Historians and Theologians would most certainly acknowledge that Jesus existed.
it appears you have not through your opinion either, as there is no evidence of this god - or the supernatural - or indeed your favorite hippy love brat - real man or otherwise - unless you have found some evidence everyone else has missed. opinion is not required to be informed i suppose but mine is. Anyway, historians certainly havn't found any for the hippy mythras clone, and they definitely don't all agree one existed or needed to. It could be argued ONLY uncritical apologist historians agree he existed, and that most objective historians are either uncertain, doubtful, or consider jesus an obvious mythic religious figure not worthy of serious enquiry.
in 5000 years the arbitrary popular god of the jews will be in the garbage bin of failed deities, (that were only ever really distinguishable by name anyway) and jesus will be seen as the close cousin of mythras and the other 'man gods'. People (if they are still 'people') will no doubt have some other way of pretending to themselves they are something special rather than the genetically enhanced freaks they have become. i expect whatever it is will be equally as ridiculous as christianity to anyone outside their little bubble of delusion. or maybe people wont die, in which case the concept of god will be redundant and forgotten. We only wanted her for one thing really !  | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 10/1/2009 6:15:05 AM | I dont beleive in Santa Claus or Zeus or Jaweh. Even the Jews didnt beleive in Jaweh because they kept going back to child sacrifice to MOLECH. The Bible is full of it.
So why dont we hear more about MOLECH or is there MOLECH DENIAL about.
PS I dont beleive in the supernatural but who or wha?t lives under a ladder? Why is he/she/it such a **stard. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 10/1/2009 6:26:06 AM | Woden was believed to live in the "North". He was also known to lead a procession of spirits "and" elves through the heavens over the winter months, riding an eight-legged horse (obviously) capable of travelling through the sky,
Contrast Woden in the sky to Osiris in his boat in the sky and his journey everynight on a boat through the river in the underworld pulled by 12 women.
Then the 12 tribes of Israel
Then the 12 Disciples
The 12 months of the year
12 Eggs in a box
12 hours on a watch
so why was there only 10 commandments
what were the other two?
Does the Ladderman know?
Does MOLECH know? | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 10/1/2009 6:34:53 AM | On the colour of the wise mens clothes
The wise emn were from the East . They did not mention were so we can virtually rule out what is now Arabia, Jordan, Iraq and Iran is North
Therfore the wise men were from India.
What Jesus taught he was taight in Egypt and it is clearly Buddhist Samaritan fusion which he used to challenge Judism.
Clearly the clothes of the wise emn would be saffron or bright orange coloured just as you see today in India, Burma, Thailand, Cambodia etc
ORANGE
However The Higher level monks in TIBET wear RED. | |
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