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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/4/2009 7:15:02 AM |
but I am more aware of the traps (theirs and mine)
This I find to be very true. Experience has taught me that relationships always evolve, spreading tentacles deeper and deeper into ones life with time. Sleeping with a woman grants her tremendous power over your life, so it deserves very careful consideration. I would say that my criteria, related to the emotional dimensions of a prospective person, have indeed become more extensive and precise. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/4/2009 7:26:47 AM | OMG now we're squids and octopusseys with tentacles! 
aphrodita
1. In zoology, a genus of the order of Molluscas; also known as, "sea-mouse".
The body is oval, with many small protuberances or tentacles on each side, which serve as feet. The mouth is cylindrical, at one end of the body, with two bristly tentacles, which are capable of being retracted.
2. From Aphrodite, so called from Greek, froth, from which the goddess was supposed to have been produced.
Aphrodite
The goddess of love and beauty, daughter of Zeus in ancient mythology; identified with the Roman goddess Venus.
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/4/2009 7:32:47 AM |
OMG now we're squids and octopusseys with tentacles!
Not to mention the TREMENDOUS POWER OVER MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am going to my room and put on my tin foil hat so they can't read my mind. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/4/2009 9:26:20 AM | Yes I agree with you Dennis someones personality is the hook for me now. As before it was about immediate attraction, back in my 20's anyway.
I need a comrade in crime someone who gets me and shares some of my views but yet is different enought to make life interesting.
I know that I can be attracted to someone in a gigantic way and the minute they open their mouth it can all fall away within seconds.
As with if I am so so attracted to someone I can end up loving and adoring them to the point of no return by their deeds and words.
So that has changed for me. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/4/2009 10:30:12 AM | Well, if you don't think that sleeping with a woman gives her tremendous power over you, then you slept with her under conditions of an empty meaningless physical encounter. We all know that that is a No-No in today's world. Otherwise, you grant her the right to expect a future with you, and that is something that is quite life changing.
If you don't believe that the "tentacle" allusion is valid, just think of how the emotional entanglements and social involvements grow with time within a relationship. Personally, I think the metaphor is entirely appropriate. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/4/2009 10:35:38 AM | If you don't believe that the "tentacle" allusion is valid, just think of how the emotional entanglements and social involvements grow with time within a relationship. Personally, I think the metaphor is entirely appropriate.
There I was making a joke again, or speaking light-heartedly about your tentacle comment, without addressing either way it's validity, so sorry about that.
I think it depends on the man and his emotions really, as we know not all men think and feel alike. Not all men feel that sleeping with a woman gives her tremendous power of them. Maybe some do and therefore the reason they put up walls, out of self-protection. The wording itself "tentacles" sounds like something evil on the woman's part to me, like a snake that can't be trusted, worming it's way into your life only to strangle you when you least expect it.
So preferably would like to think of it that a man, once intimate, would feel entwined emotionally to some degree with his lover, in a positive way. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/4/2009 11:07:22 AM |
So preferably would like to think of it that a man, once intimate, would feel entwined emotionally to some degree with his lover, in a positive way.
Well, something does the entwining, and one would think that its a positive experience for both partners. In any event, there is a big difference in the power relationship between a pair before and after the coupling, I find. Once I let a woman into my intimate space, she inherits to right to expectations, access, and a whole range of dimensions of a relationship that just do not exist beforehand.
Is not negative, but its real, and is certainly cause for serious reflection before embarking on such an adventure. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/4/2009 5:08:12 PM | "... she inherits to right to expectations, access, and a whole range of dimensions of a relationship that just do not exist beforehand. "
Rearguard... I know what you say is commonly true, but it doesn't have to be so... and for me, now, it is only so if i want it to be so. The "inheritance of rights" represent ties that have changed the future of the relationship. Freedom has gone. It may seem good at the time (early) because one feels desirably connected, but that easily translates into obligation, and that is never desirable for me. It is not that I don't want to give, but I always want that giving to be free... always. As relationships evolve into that sense of obligation and responsibility the joy of life dissipates. (For me) Every moment, every meeting (even with this woman), needs to be freely chosen. .... The woman who feels she can win, buy or earn special power in prospective intimacy puts herself in a precarious position. The hurt or disappointment she will feel does not derive from my irresponsibility but from her own lack of detachment (i.e., from her attachment to these assumptions i.e., that her sex obliges the other). When the man assumes he is now, after sex, obliged, he is shackled by his own assumptions, and doubly shackled by hers. This is not love. Nor is it freedom. And both dry up in time, unless they free each other. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/4/2009 5:40:29 PM |
I find. Once I let a woman into my intimate space, she inherits to right to expectations, access, and a whole range of dimensions of a relationship that just do not exist beforehand.
We become selfless .Then we want to controle them this way .I will take responsibility for me . | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/4/2009 6:20:54 PM | | I don't think my criteria have changed, but my ability to recognize the truthfulness of those who claim to be 'just right' for me has definitiely become more finely-tuned. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/5/2009 3:59:51 PM | While yes I do agree that people can make assumptions and yes I do agree that sometimes people can only see what they want to see.
The question you have to ask yourself is how clear are you really making it???
It has been my experience that certain things can be left out of conversation as they may actually make a stand and create conflict.
Heres my deal relationships, friendships, and co-worker relationships all take work!!!!!
If you want to be free from the maintenance part of that relationship than you can expect that you will not get the same rewards that come with a well maintained relationship.
I have freinds granted that I call sometimes once a month and that we both know we are busy and we both really care about each other but life happens.
I do not have close intimate relationships with my freinds!!!!! If you want to be in freind status than I will treat you as my dear freind .
If you want me to love you like there is no tommorrow intimately than I expect that you will treat me like the same period. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/7/2009 11:52:36 PM | How much has your criteria changed? Probably about 100 percent. Physically, about the same. I have never needed a man to be perfect physically or to be typically handsome. But what I look for in character is very different. I won't go into details because I feel it is personal, and I've written in my profile what I think would be a good fit for me in a partner. What I will say is that I was someone who chose wrong. Why didn't my serious relationships last a lifetime? Because I chose the wrong man, not the type of man I really needed or who would be right for me, but based on some idealistic, romantic criteria. I think now I am being more realistic and honest with myself. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/8/2009 8:03:27 AM | Well, scorpiodate, it is true that one participates in granting the other power over oneself, and in a loving relationship, that power is freely and eagerly given, and to my mind is not negative in any way. One can feel the freedom to do whatever one wants, but the desire to respect the relationship and conduct oneself in a manner conducive to deepening it and growing it.
The whole issue of expectations, however, is to me a source of conflict should both parties not be on the same page. I do think that if you sleep with a woman, she has the right to acquire expectations, much as I would expect that if she sleeps with me I expect her to discard her other sexual interests in my favour. Surely, if either of us fails to live up the expectations, and the relationship continues, the loss of joy to which you refer is the inevitable result.
Yes, mutual support of our expectations, when freely given, leaves one with the feeling of freedom, and at the limit, by the dissolution of the relationship, freedom is always available, I can't see how the feeling of freedom is anything but an illusion if the expectations are there. Of course, there are those people who are happy with completely open relationships, but I am certainly not of that ilk. That latter is, however, just my personal preference. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/9/2009 4:53:11 AM | Very little...
But my patience has increased Immeasurably..!!!
Elsewise, I wouldn't have kept looking here...so Bloody Long...!!!
Near Perfect...??
^^^'blueyes...'^^^
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/9/2009 5:47:02 AM | not sure I had a "criteria", I can only mesh with someone who meshes with me!
isn't it really all about connection and the level of that connection?
the more two mesh and compliment each other, the deeper and more meaningful the relationship.
I could list qualities or "criteria", but I haven't found any "men! custom-made!" catalogs yet, I don't think they exist. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/9/2009 6:21:06 AM | -For me its just about having a clearer picture about who I am in the world at this age. In my first marriage we were too dern young, I was 18, he was 21 and just back from Vietnam...we sure as heck had no idea who we were or what relationship might require from us. That's what life is for....learning all that good stuff. Today he & I are good friends and laugh at how mis-matched we really were. ...the starry-eyed ideas just didn't pan out. We ended the marriage 2 kids and 7 years later and have gone on to live very different lives.
-This past weekend we attended the marriage of our oldest son and a family member brought some informal pictures of our wedding day....so fun to look back & appreciate the times for what they were. The time between has been all about the life lessons and understanding who we are, what works and what doesn't....and a lingering hope for what we can still get to. Yes, its all very different. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/9/2009 6:45:39 AM | If anything I've become more aware of the red flags and have learned to trust my instincts in a relationship or someone I'm just getting to know. Back in the day I saw the signs but did nothing, hoping that things would improve over time, staying with them for the possibilities, not for what was the reality in the here and now. No more of that.
The beauty/personality thing is probably the reverse of many. While others were going for the cutest babe they could find in their teens and twenties I was dating those in the middle of the spectrum. Now as I get older I find myself wanting that pretty face to be with, along with a sense of kindness and caring nature. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/9/2009 8:38:19 AM | While yes I do agree that people can make assumptions and yes I do agree that sometimes people can only see what they want to see. The question you have to ask yourself is how clear are you really making it???
Ms. karma....I think you're onto something! Up until about a year ago, I was willing to put up with a lot of things........... to find a relationship. I think I was "afraid" to ask really important questions, even before I even met a fella. And, it wasn't a good place to be.
Basically, I was allowing myself to be strung along. I was too damn trusting for my own good. I use to hesitate asking really important questions of him because I was afraid that he wouldn't like me or he'd walk. How dumb is that? (that's a rhetorical question)
When I realized what I was doing, I changed. I changed my strategy, so to speak. And, I changed my criteria. Now, I ask important questions during the initial conversations and especially, before even agreeing to meeting him or go on a date with him.
I start by making the man be really clear and up front about what he wants out of his life and his relationship with me. I ask about what values this guy has and it helps me determine whether he's just a bull chitter and into it for the "sport" or whether he's sincerely looking for a relationship. If his "core beliefs" don't match up with mine, I find out sooner, rather than later, now. I'll always thank Michigan for that lesson.
Basically, I've empowered myself. I have important questions and I have a right to answers and getting the respect I deserve. So, I basically put my requirements on the table. Yes, this means I risk that he'll walk away. But, it's a risk I'm willing to take to avoid the time-wasters and guys who "play" women and string them along. If he's turned off by my questions or he can't stick around to answer them, well then I know "outta the gate" he's not the one for me. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/9/2009 9:27:28 AM |
Now, I ask important questions during the initial conversations and especially, before even agreeing to meeting him or go on a date with him. Yes, I agree. I am always amazed that people end up going to meets or dating people with whom they have virtually nothing in common.
I find out sooner, rather than later Absolutely. Take the time to get to know someone and ask questions. A nice man will say, "Ask me anything." I do. 
(And he can ask me anything too.) | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/9/2009 9:35:59 AM | | I hold my little cosmetic mirror in front of his face and if it fogs that means he's still breathing and I can date him. Needless to say my standards are somewhat lower than they used to be since I mostly get contacted by elderly men and I need to make sure they're still alive before we go out. There have been times I've wondered.... | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/9/2009 10:28:16 AM | | I get contacted by guys of all ages. Now I like intelligent conversation and an ability to laugh at themselves....also how much they are attracted to me. It used to be more about how they looked. Of course, they've still got to have a nice smile and great eyes...in MY eyes. It's a relative thing...attractive to one is not so much to another. In the 5 years that I have been divorced there have been 2 guys who were memorable...one was 18 years younger than me, the other one 7 years older. And I think what made them alike was the attraction and heat in the relationship. ;-) | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/11/2009 6:17:38 AM | | Rearguard, whilst I don't necessarily agree with your assessment on age, I was so touched by your post to Scorpiodate on 9/9 that I read it to a g/f this evening - to give her hope that men of the ilk we seek still exist. She fell in love with a man and was moving half way across Australia to set up house with him. Mid point in her journey, she learned he'd returned to his former love interest and had decided not to tell my friend until she arrived! Needless to say, she is wounded emotionally and considerably out of pocket. She said she's angry because she seems to be making the same mistakes - too trusting, so perhaps she needs to rethink her criteria. But then sometimes, in spite of best planning and forethought, you still can't see it coming. He seemed to tick all the right boxes - even flew back from Antarctic to fight bush fires on friends' property - but then behaves in such an irreverent manner towards their relationship. Can't figure it. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/11/2009 1:47:57 PM | The maintenance of personal freedom is essential for the maintenance of whole hearted service to the other and to others. The belief that personal freedom is somehow incompatible with "a loving relationship" is unfortunate. All the evidence of our broken relationships should have taught us that by limiting each other's personal (individual) freedoms we actually harm our relationships. Our romantic notions about near ideal unions are undone by the confining of each others souls, minds, time and actions through possessiveness, fear of inadequacy and jealousy. Our reasons for restricting each other are more often about fear, jealousy and personal need than about confidence and completeness in one's self; and our reasons for claiming the right to personal freedom are no less soiled e.g., an excuse for mere erotic gratification (with the stress on "mere" not on "erotic gratification"). In romantic relationships, two halves do not make a whole because none of us are halves. The uniting of my own better half with her better half does not somehow magically and romantically neutralize my worst half, nor hers.
The forcing of sex upon another is horrid, but the imposition of assumptions about the meaning of consensual sex is also pretty nasty in its consequences. I agree that it can be helpful, in the circumstances, to be up front about such things... i.e., be clear, e.g., "Having sex with you means I expect a future." OR "Having sex with you does not mean I will be here tomorrow!" But both statements are based on an enhanced need to achieve or avoid consequences, not on pure-in-the-moment intimate (erotic) expression. It is obviously quite silly to make or expect a future investment (or to avoid the possibility of a contract) based on an erotic moment that is wholesomely free of business-like negotiations. The sex act should not be the basis for writing or not writing a contract.
What we want and the way we want it is a self defeating process. The prescriptions we follow for success are, like cannon law, counterproductive to their own aims. Making acquaintances with basic motivation to achieve or avoid is already the end of the relationship. "I will love, I will give, I will serve, I will fully welcome if ... if ... if ... " At the very least, there is no pure spontaneity (and spontaneity can only be pure) ... therefore there is no (pure) joy. There is wariness, a facade, entrapment. Many movie/soapy writers and novelists see this as the normal structure of relationships, the game human males and females play. We are following their script and are locked into a cheap soapy with all its inevitable morbidity.
We have turned everything into a tradable commodity, including our own personal biology. My body is not currency; it is the place we meet.
The responsibility of freedom is too much for us. It frightens us. So we cannot love. We can obsess, desire, be desperately attached... but we cannot love. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/11/2009 6:57:06 PM | Well, I don't agree with your analysis and its conclusions. At the limit, the only form of absolute freedom is non-existence. The minute that existence occurs, it is in relationship to an environment, and all environments involve constraints, starting at the trivially obvious one that is related to location.
In a similar vein, a person can only be free in the interpersonal sense if they have no relationship invested. They can act freely because there is no interdependency to be involved with. The instant you have a relationship with another human being, you are perforce constrained by whatever requirements that are imposed by the other person for the continuation of that relationship.
We are social animals, and it is part of our biological survival strategy. By and large, for instance, human females require assistance when giving birth, and that imposes the need for relationships which are stable and enduring. Similarly with the raising of the young. It is a natural need for the human to form relationships for many reasons, and to maintain those relationships we all negotiate an exchange of obligations which impinge on absolute freedom. These negotiations do not make the exchange one of currency, but they can and do result in emotional patterns that we call love. The reason we can love is that we can negotiate the exchange of commitments, expectations and the bases of relationship.
To me, if we could not behave this way, we could not exist as a species. If we did not exist, there would not be freedom in any sense that is useful. As we are, we are free to survive, to love and to prosper in our relationships. It is, to me, an illusion that we are individuals. We are all part of a living system and what freedom we have is based on relationships and love. | |
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| How much has your criteria changed?
Posted: 9/11/2009 7:28:28 PM | wow, guys, there's a lot to agree with in both of your very persuasive arguments.
Scorpiodate: Fear stopping us from loving - yes, of course, but this comes with age and history, don't you think? And how many have been ever able to love another unconditionally and be loved the same way back? Your kind of love is the ideal, yes, the dream (and I have to say unbelievably Scorpion) but..
The reason we can love is that we can negotiate the exchange of commitments, expectations and the bases of relationships
This love, scorpiodate, might not tick all those Scorpion needs for deep passion and mystery, but it is achievable and much more sustainable. No falling off pedestals this way... | |
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