| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/4/2009 8:34:28 PM | Government is the shadow cast on the people by big business....or something along those lines.
I forget who said that.
Everyone is always mad at the government...its a perfect smoke screen for those who are actually in power | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/5/2009 11:20:51 AM | R90sboxer says:
"Jeez...if you did alter this and insert "the left" it would mean the same thing....
We[the accused I guess]distrust government and it is partly our own fault......the age old idea of term limits is something that SHOULD and NEEDS to be addressed......again.As long as there is change....and the THREAT of change.......I believe that our politicians may view their jobs more seriously.......and more in line with the public as well.
And yes...I am a "my country,right or wrong" type.....and proud of it.And I have been around long enough to see the glaring errors we have made in some foreign policy issus.....and some of the glaring errors we "had" to make because the whining left wants to help "everybody" in the world.Well....those poor Tibetans.....too bad,not our problem...the suffering African countries,not our problem........The Chinese issues with "our" perception of human rights,toobad,NOT OUR PROBLEM........... and on and on and on....."
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Well I wish Tm Delay, Trent Lott, etc. had felt the same way when NATO decided to step in against REAL genocide in REAL time in Kosovo. And despite propogated partisan myths I wish they had felt the same way when President Clinton REALLY wanted to after Osama Bin-Laden. Dissent is an inalienable right, to however practice it so incredibly self servingly and partisanly as the "Right" has in recent years is not only counterproductive it is with all due respect and IMHO un-American. there was nothing conservative about the folks who fancied themselves "Neocons." Clinton was a real Neocon. Let the truth set you free. If you're willing to forgive the nearly 1,000 DOCUMETNED FALSE STATEMENTS the Administration issued in the lead up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq that's your right. What is not your right is to expect the same of me or anyone else that believes we need true accoutnability to really learn from the experience and grow as a nation.
And as to the poster that said there was no difference between Bush's foray in Iraq and Obama's refocusing on Pashtunistan with all due respect that is IMHO irrational to put it kindly. Nobody of consequence in Iraq EVER threatened our security, in fact their WMDs were acquired and used with the tacit approval of two US Presidents, Reagen and Bush I. In 2003 women were going to school in Iraq and assuming the highest levels of government under Saddam Hussein. The foreign minister, Tariq Aziz, was a CHRISTIAN. Every mass grave unearthed in 2003 was a t a minimum a dozen years old when the first President Bush encouraged the southern Shia to rise up and then left them high and dry. Iraq was indeed the only quasi-secular nation in a region we were subsequently told we were instilling Democracy into. Yeah, bombing it and invading it was brilliant. LMFAO.
Afghanistan is home to misogynist hypocrites that were behind the attack that ended up being the greatest intelligence failure by a sitting President in our Nations history 8 years ago this coming week.
When we say Tibet isn't our problem, that Darfur isn't our problem, our true colors reveal that despite the noble declarations of heroes through more than 2 centuries today's "Americans" are more than happy to "free" foreign people on a selective basis. Yet the same people have deluded themselves into thinking we are a "Christian" Nation when there's bountiful clarity in the ACTUAL historical record that our founders went to great pains to NOT endorse any one God over another.
"Think! It's very patriotic!" | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/5/2009 11:24:04 AM | | Edit: I meant to say in Kosovo when talking about Delay and Lott. I need to add to get this posted, so a question: How much of a kitchen pass did Bush II get after 911? From everyone on both sides of the aisle? Unbelieveable how selective a partisan memory can be. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/5/2009 11:47:57 AM | And yes...I am a "my country,right or wrong" type.....and proud of it.And I have been around long enough to see the glaring errors we have made in some foreign policy issus.....and some of the glaring errors we "had" to make because the whining left wants to help "everybody" in the world.Well....those poor Tibetans.....too bad,not our problem...the suffering African countries,not our problem........The Chinese issues with "our" perception of human rights,toobad,NOT OUR PROBLEM........... and on and on and on....."
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As long as you can admit when the right is wrong too.
Wars for natural resources, toppling democraticaly elected governments. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/5/2009 12:32:23 PM |
And yes...I am a "my country,right or wrong" type.....and proud of it.And I have been around long enough to see the glaring errors we have made in some foreign policy issus.....and some of the glaring errors we "had" to make because the whining left wants to help "everybody" in the world.Well....those poor Tibetans.....too bad,not our problem...the suffering African countries,not our problem........The Chinese issues with "our" perception of human rights,toobad,NOT OUR PROBLEM........... and on and on and on....."
Out of curiousity, what foreign policy errors were made to help the people of Tibet? For that matter, what foreign policy whatsoever was made with Tibet in mind?
Or Sudan? Or Zimbabwe? I'm old enough to remember when the left was "whining" that arming Saddam Hussein was a bad idea. And that it would be a good idea to help the people of Afghanistan once the Soviets had pulled out. And that funding terrorism in Central America would legitimize it and would bite the US in the ass one day. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/5/2009 1:25:38 PM | Can someone please explain this to me?
I think people thrive on Conspiracy Theories and doom and gloom to justify their existence for being losers. It is much easier and convenient to blame institutions opposed to taking personal responsibility. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/5/2009 8:03:16 PM |
From everyone on both sides of the aisle? Unbelieveable how selective a partisan memory can be.
I think it's good that there are those to the right and those to the left of the aisle, though. Well, I mean that's not the good part...The actual good part is that there IS an aisle - and it's getting wider and fuller every day, while the two parties and their Republicrat/Democan cronies standing on the sides of it are looking thinner and thinner. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/5/2009 9:02:33 PM |
Government is the shadow cast on the people by big business
—John Dewey
As we minions bicker amongst ourselves we fail to see that big business, including the MIC, merrily exert their power over the government and it matters not a wit who the face of the government is.
It all started with the 1886 Supreme Court Case, Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad.
Corporations were granted personhood, essentially the same rights as any individual.
It's no wonder there is only 2 political parties in the U.S. It's much easier to control 2 sides of the same coin than several coins.
You can vote...but does it actually matter? | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/5/2009 9:10:26 PM | | Using the 14th amendment to do it, it also absolved the individual shareholders from responsibility for abuses by the corps. allowing all manner of abuses of employees and the environment. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/5/2009 10:15:59 PM | If an honest candidate ran for office, in good conscience I'd have to vote against him/her just to keep h/h honest.
IMO the greater distrust is not the govt itself, rather the corporations, PACs, and special-interest lobbies that control our politicians ... from their first campaign announcement to their last day in office.
Think back to the last few elections (prez and whatever elections may have occurred in your state &/or municipality). How much emphasis was placed on who has how much in their campaign coffers? And where does one suppose the majority of that money came from?
Let's drop this down to the state level ... a little closer to home for many of us to appreciate the impact (although the same concept applies to all levels). How much was spent on gubernatorial elections? And what shape are your schools in? Or your roads? Or how tall is the grass now in your city parks? It's hard to trust anyone who spends millions of dollars on an election campaign when the jurisdictions over which they preside or represent are awash in red ink. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/6/2009 3:11:27 PM |
Can someone please explain this to me? If the same people that you believe are competent enough to justify wars, the deaths of thousands of American soldiers and innocent civillians, and spending trillions of dollars on wars, why is it that they are not capable of dealing with anything else? No, Grizz, I can't explain it to you, because it is illogical. I guess you just have to take those people with grains of salt. Just shake your head and walk away, all the while being grateful that they were willing to wear such large red flags. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/6/2009 3:15:48 PM | Well what's illogical is a matter of interpretation. There's every reason to mistrust a Government when one ascertains they are suggesting policies beyond the scope of the Constitution.
On several occasions I've asked left-leaning demogogues, and those who subject themselves to nothing but hyperbole, to express their political philosophy, or what they believe in.
I don't believe they're intellectually handicapped to provide some ideas of their own that would induce better conditions for our Country. But continued vetriol, innuendo's and more silly assumptions maybe evidence against them.
No amount of sophistry and cunning rhetorical device can replace ideas that are both reasonable and practical to the average reader. I'm one to believe that people know the distinction between ideal and practice, and therefore desire ideas that better their world and their Nation.
Any dunce can troll around belittling another's post. How about for once explaining the merits of your position, instead of following legitimate arguments like a flea on a dog's back? | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/6/2009 3:20:46 PM | Well what's illogical is a matter of interpretation. There's every reason to mistrust a Government when one ascertains they are suggesting policies beyond the scope of the Constitution. I didn't say that it was illogical not to trust a government. Perhaps you were so excited to be condescending that you forgot to pay attention to what you were responding to. Who knows. Either way... I was stating an opinion. I think what the OP described is illogical. We ALL know that an opinion is, in a way, an interpretation. So ... thanks for stating the obvious, friend! I'm excited to hear your opinion, too! :-)
On several occasions I've asked left-leaning demogogues, and those who subject themselves to nothing but hyperbole, to express their political philosophy, or what they believe in. Yes, I've seen that, and I've seen extreme ugliness from you when your demands are not met.
I don't believe they're intellectually handicapped to provide some ideas of their own that would induce better conditions for our Country. But continued vetriol, innuendo's and more silly assumptions maybe evidence against them. I'm not entirely sure how this addresses the topic of the thread.
Any dunce can troll around belittling another's post. How about for once explaining the merits of your position, instead of following legitimate arguments like a flea on a dog's back? Pot, meet Kettle. In any event, I'm not entirely sure why you must stoop to name-calling. I'm not at all sure why you think I was belittling anyone's post. Agreeing with the original post is anything but trolling. Flea? C'mon... you're above that nonsense, aren't you? | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/6/2009 3:30:46 PM | Have just a few minutes before the"go to work"train hits the station.....
<div class="quote"> What is not your right is to expect the same of me or anyone else that believes we need true accoutnability to really learn from the experience and grow as a nation.
Which could come from having term limits and not letting people stay in office long enough to "cover" their tracks or better yet,to not get into something stupid to begin with...........
<div class="quote">Wars for natural resources, toppling democraticaly elected governments
And which "democratically elected" governments may you be referring to?
And I'm all for a bit of isolationism......Sorry Hawaii...too far off to bother with...Bye!Alaska....even though Canada is in between, I believe it should stay part of the big party.Easier to get to by land than sea.....and actually has resources of value to the States.Down south....the Obama wants some shovel ready jobs....I think a 1400 mile long wall could be the ticket he needs......Besides....the "minority" owned construction companies in MO are crying this week that "women" owned companies get bigger and better jobs than they do...the wall could give a lot of folks some work.....
IMO the greater distrust is not the govt itself, rather the corporations, PACs, and special-interest lobbies that control our politicians ... from their first campaign announcement to their last day in office.
Don't let them stay too long........ | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/8/2009 7:42:52 AM | I think the original question was about the selectivity of trusting the government for some things but not for others.
Thank You! My opinion on the war in Irag or UHC has no bearing on this. Nice attempt at avoiding the question though. I only used the war as an example because of the enormity and massive price to be paid by such a decision. You would think that the American public would be less inclined to support a major invasion of a sovereign country but the opposite happened. But the idea of looking at the current healthcare program is drawing way more attention, questioning and almost border line hysteria in some cases than the decision to go into Iraq and the major reasoning behind the push back is "trust". I think that these 2 issues highlight the oxymoron that many of the reasons people give when it comes to why they oppose an issue. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/8/2009 11:46:33 AM | First of all a government governs best when it governs least. i would rather see my government invade terrorist holding nations that are out to destroy us. Then see them enslave us with taxes, and more taxes and still more taxes. The unhindered free market would fix all of our economic problems. Read the information that is available from the Ludwig Van Mises Institute. It would give you another point of view other than Karl Marx. It is government interference that breeds coruption, greed and the other ills that plague us.
I just need the Federal government to pass laws protecting me and my property. Fight the wars and man our borders.
I don't need a hand out. Just need the government to get out of the market completely. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/8/2009 11:58:28 AM | | The market without any government would be a lawless thing. Your money would not have any value. Your property would not be protected except as you could form an alliance of mutual protection, prevailing by force of arms. That happens to be how things were a long time ago and how government came into being. It's impossible to have the position you stated without being entirely mistaken about what a market is, what government is, and what property is. Yet, it's a common enough position. This is a good example of how people will adopt political views that serve their interest as they see it, regardless of reason and information. That explains perfectly how trust is assigned selectively. Why do people who don't know what they are doing seem to do things that defy reasonable criteria? It's because the criteria do not apply, for being outside the person's inventory of what they know. Forgive them for they know not what they do, or, condemn them for their ignorance. Either way, there is a bumper sticker for it. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/8/2009 12:33:26 PM | "the major reasoning behind the push back is "trust". I think that these 2 issues highlight the oxymoron that many of the reasons people give when it comes to why they oppose an issue. "
?????????? Seriously the oxymoron? So people supported the War because they thought that Sadaam helped fund terrorists, had WMD's, that he slaughtered people, oppressed the population...People don't support the Govenrment take over of Health Care, why? to much Government intrusion, leads to more Socialism,no way to pay for it(especially now since the Wars are ongoing), don't want taxes to go up, ambiguous wording in the text of the Bill, realize that Rationing is a possibility, and that there is a possibility that quality will suffer, Government might have a say in treatment based on cost versus expectancy
Don't think trust has anything to do with it....I think it has to do with access to information.
We had to rely on the President and his administration to provide info about Iraq and the situation with terrorist the info was not readily available at the time. With the Health Care takeover we have access to the text we have other systems that we can refer to in regards to effectiveness and the amount those countries pay in taxes...etc.... | |
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wudger
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Joined: 12/20/2007
Msg: 44 | |
| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/8/2009 1:41:48 PM |
With the Health Care takeover we have access to the text we have other systems that we can refer to in regards to effectiveness and the amount those countries pay in taxes...etc....
to bad we don't read those texts. other countries have good health care and for a lot less than we pay. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/8/2009 3:49:47 PM |
The sheeple simply aren't outraged enough yet. Close, but not quite.
The upcoming midterm elections will be a very telling measure of the "sheeples" degree of outrage. Watch the Democrats lose some of their precious majority and then watch the reaction.
People on both sides of the spectrum are getting fed up with our "Me First" politicians. Maybe now voters will recognize that the best way to be heard is through their votes. If members of the Senate and Congress start getting voted out for not representing the needs of those they were elected to represent the others will soon learn a valuable lesson.
Politicians answer to the voters. it is time for the voters to hold them responsible for their actions and for their voting records.
My God someone finally gets the truth out. I think you will see a massive change and maybe this country will get back on track. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/8/2009 4:48:38 PM |
BUT when the Government tells the American people that invading a sovereign country needs to happen, and that people need to be interrogated and held in secret prisons without the benefit of a trial, constantly refer to the threat of terrorists to the level that is frankly almost absurd and other associated actions, the same people that question the government will not question those actions. In fact they almost rabidly support these actions by the same people that last week were apparently way too stupid and incompetent to run a lemonade stand.
I think you're a little off when saying "the same people." Many are openly against the war and the way the government has handled foreign policy. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/12/2009 6:52:08 AM |
You know, I could go on. But frankly I could be at this all day and still not scratch the surface. .
you sure could half time ~ as is ~ you hit the high spots that made me gag!
You can trust if you wish ~ but it needs to be verified . ~ That's the only thing keeping people honest and above board.
I was a young man of 21 before I realized you can't trust the government or what you read.
I was flown into Bien Hoa airport with some 300 other soldiers back in 68'. We met up with other's that was coming into country. It was a big operation, ~ It take a week to get processes and assigned to an outfit. ~ Morning formation and Reveille continues "everyday" in the military. Each day we are assign duties as we fallout. ~ One of mine was shipping the dead for the return trip home. The amount shipped and stated body counts never matched up. I found that unsettling .
and the soldiers hand book stated we were there to secure the peace for a "free" election. While I'd admit dead people don't cause a lots of problem except for the smell, I not so sure it was all that peaceful.
I help bury a friend a few weeks ago, ~ he was 59 ~ he died from the exposure to agent orange ~ his body finally turned against him ~ it's was 14 month of hard slow dieing for him. He was a marked dead man 40 years ago. The VA was good enough to send the widow$2,000. to help with expenses.
Trust government? Is not a good idea. ~ So we must all stay engaged and involved, don't for a moment let them think you are not watching.
Dance | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/12/2009 7:15:22 AM |
would think that the American public would be less inclined to support a major invasion of a sovereign country but the opposite happened. But the idea of looking at the current healthcare program is drawing way more attention, questioning and almost border line hysteria in some cases than the decision to go into Iraq and the major reasoning behind the push back is "trust".
In the US, the left rarely trusts the govt, while right trusts the govt only when there's a republican in office.
That's why Obamas' health care plans are being attacked from both the right and the left, while bushs' Medicare D entitlement was attacked from the left only. That's why when the right attacks the growing national debt, they ignore the $5 trillion of debt bush accumulated and focus on the Obama's $1trillion. That's why they complain about Obamas' spending, but kept silent when bush and the republicans looted the treasury and turned a surplus into a deficit. For them, bush spending is capitalism while Obama spending is socialism. Medicare D was compassionate conservative; health care reform is socialized medicine....
The bottom line, is that they think "It's OK when a republican does it". That's because they have no principles but one....short-term self-interest. | |
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/12/2009 8:00:41 AM | msg 48
That's why Obamas' health care plans are being attacked from both the right and the left, while bushs' Medicare D entitlement was attacked from the left only. That's why when the right attacks the growing national debt, they ignore the $5 trillion of debt bush accumulated and focus on the Obama's $1trillion. That's why they complain about Obamas' spending, but kept silent when bush and the republicans looted the treasury and turned a surplus into a deficit. .
Not sure where some people were during the Bush years, but everyone I knew was furiously screaming about what Bush was doing and did. In the media one could not help but see evidence of the distrust and Bush's rising unpopularity, with even Glenn Beck being very critical.
Once people realized that the rumors of weapons were just that, rumors, Bush went down in the eyes and trust of a huge % of his supporters and Americans. Maybe that is why it wasn't as big a deal that during Bush's 2005 SOTU address boos and calls of liar can be heard, yet with no apologies were given or required as it is with Obama.
Bush was very much disliked for a good percentage of his administration, which can be shown in his exit approval ratings.
Actually our country's distrust with Bush can be seen as early as 2006 when the Democrats did a major shakeup in local state and federal elections all over the country. America's distrust of Bush and his party were one of the primary reasons Obama won in 2008. People were overly sick and tired of what Bush and his administration were doing to our Country. Thus America's distrust in Bush's flowed over to a lot of candidates that were affiliated with the republican party in 2006 and 2008
msg 22
People on both sides of the spectrum are getting fed up with our "Me First" politicians. Maybe now voters will recognize that the best way to be heard is through their votes. If members of the Senate and Congress start getting voted out for not representing the needs of those they were elected to represent the others will soon learn a valuable lesson. Politicians answer to the voters. it is time for the voters to hold them responsible for their actions and for their voting records.
This is statement actually does the best job of describing most Americans right now.
American's are not just fed up with one party or the other, they are Fed Up and Distrustful of all elected officials at all levels; local, state and federal.
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| Goverment trust
Posted: 9/12/2009 9:37:17 AM |
Not sure where some people were during the Bush years, but everyone I knew was furiously screaming about what Bush was doing and did.
Yeah, right!! I remember all those teabagger tantrum rallies when bush was president. And how could I forget all the rightwingers who brought guns to one of bushs' rallies? And then there was all those passionate rightwing health care rallies protesting how bush got the govt involved in our health care with his Medicare D program.
Gee, how could I have forgotten all about those mythical events? | |
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