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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/9/2009 8:42:25 PM | | The more money you make the higher your tax bracket is and the more money you lose. What I make isn't a lot, but at least I'm in a comfortable tax bracket to get by. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/9/2009 8:47:32 PM |
But once again, you are equating happiness with ownership of goods.
No. You told me you know single mom's with houses and cars who did it all on 40k a year. I just said that's bullsh't 'cause it is. I didn't say anything about happiness at all.
Who says people, especially people in a major centre like Edmonton, that has good public transit, have to own a car to be happy?
It's not a happiness issue. Do you want to rush your kid to the hospital in the middle of the night on the bus? In a cab? Call an ambulance for your kid when he has the sniffles? Jog ten blocks to the store to buy milk at 10pm when you run out of formula? I never said people need cars to be happy so bug off.
Who says people have to own a house to be happy?
No one. Not me at all in any way. But guess what. Even if you don't own a house you still have to pay rent. You still have to pay utilities. You still have to maintain the property. 40k a year is enough to do all of that, but it's going to take 2000 of your hours every year, year after year.
Are most people happier when they're working at their $20/hr job, or when they're doing other stuff? Most people would be happy as clams if they got 40k a year and didn't have to work. It's giving up all those hours a week that make some people unhappy, not the lack of cars, lack of houses.
OK I will use one of your phrases to reply to this comment...
"I hope you know better than that"
Man, you say in one post that people working at 7/11 would be happier making more money, but then the same logic doesn't hold true for people making 20 bucks an hour at Safeway. I don't get it. Are you suggesting that the magic number where people become happy is 20 bucks? It's obviously not material items that make or break your happiness. That doesn't change the fact that you need a certain amount of cash to survive and the way you get that cash is largely responsible for your happiness. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/9/2009 9:00:18 PM | re: living without a car
I lived in Calgary for 1 year without a car (by choice I must add) . I lived in Marda Loop..which for those that don't know is sort of a "mini downtown" or little village about 2 kms from the core. Overall, life wasn't that difficult as pretty much all that I needed was in Marda Loop. The real pain in the ass was going to work. My office was in the Foothills, so it meant a 90 minute trip to work on 2 buses and 1 C train.
Now, living in an urban centre without a car is one thing but it's another to be living in the suburbs (where you find cheaper rent). If you're a single woman are you going to push your baby stroller down to the store at 9 PM to buy something ? Or how about groceries? You want to save money so you'll go to Superstore. I lived in Marda Loop and it was a 30 minute bus ride to Superstore AND then 1 hour shopping, 30 minutes for the cab, and 15 minutes home. Half your day gone. And 15 bucks in cab fare.
And that's Calgary. Now I spent a winter in Edmonton. I remember going out on Whyte Ave in -35C and just walking was tough. I tried to imagine what taking the bus was like..waiting in that for 20 minutes. And imagine towing a kid along?
So unless you live in an urban area (and they are expensive) you need a car in Calgary or Edmonton. This is not Toronto or NYC man. You can do it slick, but it ain't living. Try living in Douglasdale without a car for 2 months. It's like a prison sentence. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/9/2009 9:59:45 PM | | It all depends on where you live. If you live close to work then who needs a car? If you are close to shopping and most places you need to go, then a car is not really a necessary expense. The way I look at it, $20,000, plus insurance premiums, outrageous gas prices, maintenance and upkeep. For something you will need to trade in or sell in 10-15 years time? Not worth it in my books. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 5:28:49 AM | Having children makes everything much more expensive. School start-up costs this year for my grade 7er: Fees, supplies, gym strip and NOT including clothes (which is ongoing) = almost $500.00. Choosing to not have a car is not an option. It doesn't matter where you work. There are many places you drive your children to.
<div class='quote'> Just as I chose not to buy a car until I could afford it, perhaps people should CHOOSE not to have kids until they can comfortably afford them. It really is a choice - if you can't afford kids, take the pill, wear condoms, etc - and don't have kids. Don't choose to have a child (or 2, or 3) and then complain that your wages aren't high enough to support them. And yes I know that accidents happen - but I would be willing to bet the number of TRULY "accidental" children (those in which birth control is used properly and safe sex is practiced but a pregnancy still occurs) is quite low. Before I get flamed too badly I'll say the exception to this would be women who are in long term relationships with men, a mutual decision to have children is reached, and then the guy takes off after the kid is born and doesn't pay child support - this sucks. (and by long term relationships I'm thinking in terms of years, not months. If you choose to deliberately have a child with a man or woman you've known less than a year, my sympathy level drops considerably.)
He predicted correctly on the flaming. He makes some really good points that can't be argued with so then why are they?
<div class='quote'>As with anything in life, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
I'm sorry, this is a very strange statement. Sad reflection on life when such a serious thing (single parenthood, which affects more people than the 2 people in control of things) can be summed up so easily as a crapshoot. It actually gives Someone11's post more credence, IMO.
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 5:54:06 AM |
Fort Mac would have a population of 25 people and a few natives.
I personally find that statement quite offensive, even if it was made in jest.
OT:
I have no sympathy for this or any other union.
Earn a salary you can live on, act like an adult and deal with your own issues.
If you don't like the salary or the conditions where you work, then look for an alternative. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 7:04:32 AM | I also was a staunch "union man" for nearly 20 years prior to my accident and witnessed a notable amount of it's evolution over the years. (mainly just construction/building trades, and large site unions like Syncrude, Dow, Genesee, pulp-mills, etc.)
The unions were necessary for hiccups in the economy (as we're about to witness once again I suspect) to prevent business from rampant exploitation of the workforce when times get a bit tough. The problem being that they're (most unions) no longer "by the people, for the people" as was lauded forever, but rather they've grown into big parasitic entities in and of themselves with far less regard for members and their rights anymore, let alone relations with business (their members' job market). All bottom line nowadays. 
I predict another spat like occurred in the early 90s before too long. That was when the building trade unions were busted (rocky time for many unions) and had to put their feet back on the ground soon or fade away completely. I even feel that to some degree such is justified again considering present atmospheres. This Safeway workers story and circumstances are a bit of an example, though the union's recommendation was for workers to accept the deal on the table in this case, and the workers kiboshed it. Not gonna be pretty I'd wager. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 7:32:35 AM | I don't agree with the need for unions in this day and age, but I don't think the workers being locked out is the unions fault. The WORKERS decided to reject the offer that was presented. I don't have a lot of sympathy because a 14% pay raise seems pretty sweet to me, but again, I don't know all the details, so who knows. If the raise in hours was going to cause some to lose their jobs, those individuals would vote against the contract, wouldn't they?
As far as being able to make it in Calgary on $20/hr... well, it depends. As a single person, maybe. You don't need a large apartment, house or condo, you won't need a vehicle, and can eat pretty cheaply. It all changes when you have kids. There is no way you can survive without a vehicle when you have kids, you can't live in a one bedroom apartment, so everything is more... utilities, rent/mortgage... which is a moot point, because you won't get a mortgage making that kind of money. It is different in smaller towns, or Edmonton... Edmonton is way cheaper than Calgary, you just can't compare the two. Plus, if you are a parent, forget taking a second job, you need to spend TIME with your kids...
To the poster (way) above... who said she didn't have sympathy for women who ended up single mom's... Most single moms don't plan on being single moms, you think they plan that their marriages or relationships will fail so they can be alone to raise kids, on $20 an hour? Geez... | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 8:03:08 AM | ^^^^ I currently live in both Edmonton and Calgary due to the structure of what I'm working at right now. About 50-50. Edmonton is cheaper than Calgary but not by that much. You'll save a bit on rent, groceries and eating out. I attribute the cheaper food to the fact there is Save On Foods and more smaller, independent food stores in low rent areas of town. But, while you could survive in Calgary without a car (if you worked downtown) this is not the case in Edmonton. There are few jobs downtown so much of the business/industry is decentralized. It's a big, spread out city and the bus service is somewhat lacking. The only place I can see you surviving without a car would be in Oliver (west side of downtown) or Old Strathcona..and there goes your rent. Try living in Millwoods without a car. It would be tough. Also, wages are lower in Edmonton.
Castaline: My comment on Fort Mac isn't meant to be derogatory. It's exactly the opposite. I was making the point that there are some Albertan's that do not like the migration of others to Alberta and often blame these people for all the problems. I know more than a few old skool Calgarians that often complained about the "imports" causing all the problems. I go to Fort Mac all the time and I find a good majority of those people up there are Newf's or those from the Maritimes. Without them and their hard work there wouldn't be much of a Fort Mac.. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 8:50:26 AM |
As with anything in life, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
I'm sorry, this is a very strange statement. Sad reflection on life when such a serious thing (single parenthood, which affects more people than the 2 people in control of things) can be summed up so easily as a crapshoot. It actually gives Someone11's post more credence, IMO.
How is it a strange statement? Nobody ever said it was a crapshoot, but shit happens. You can either dwell on it, or move on, which is what I chose to do... Single parenthood, which has 'affected' me, is tough yes, but you do what you have to do.
I'm sorry if you think my life is a sad reflection because of my thoughts on this, but we're actually doing really well, and dare I say, probably better then if we'd stayed with my son's father.
Oh, btw, a single parent CAN be in control of things... it's not exclusive to just couples.
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 9:20:50 AM | By saying "the 2 people in control of things" I was referring to the making of children.
This is off-topic to the subject so I don't want say anymore on this. You saw someone11's post as judgemental, I saw your's as defensive. I don't know if I would feel defensive as well, if I were not one of the few that he refers to where my single mom status was completely unplanned and accidental (I knew her father far less than a year - 2 months at the time and protection was used. Sometimes what's meant to be, will be and I wouldn't change what was, for anything in the world)
There's nothing wrong with being judgemental OR defensive. It's all about opinion. All I was saying was that he has some valid points. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 9:47:47 AM | | I think that there is something being missed here. If everyones wages went up say %20, then the cost of all goods would increse by a very propotional amount. That is inflation 101. So if Safeway gives everyone a %14 wage increse expect your milk to cost abour %5 more next year. You know that they (Safeway) will not just absorbe the extra expence. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 1:03:57 PM | Why wouldn't I be defensive?
That post was implying that single parents are lesser people, which is not true at all. I was in a long term relationship that blew apart due to many issues, but somehow that's my fault right?
I agree he had some valid points, and some that were, IMO, stereotypical garbage.
But like you said, we're going OT, so lets carry on with the topic at hand. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 3:45:04 PM | off topic, but:
That post was implying that single parents are lesser people, which is not true at all. I was in a long term relationship that blew apart due to many issues, but somehow that's my fault right?
Please quote exactly where I say this. I never said single parents are lesser people... I'm saying that if you can't afford to have kids, you probably should be doing everything in your power NOT to have kids. Take the pill, get a shot, wear a condom. If someone is poor because they couldn't afford to have kids yet still CHOSE to have kids, then I don't know what else to say...
Oh, and with the quote please include the part where I said "the exception to this would be women who are in long term relationships with men, a mutual decision to have children is reached, and then the guy takes off after the kid is born and doesn't pay child support - this sucks." (ie where I said clearly it's NOT your fault in that case).
Thanks! | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 4:28:00 PM | Was surfing around and read this article about some people at Bruce Nuclear in Ontario that were fired for inappropriate use of the internet. These people were "contractors" and were promptly dismissed by management. Here is what the Union had to say....
Both the Power Workers' Union and the Society of Energy Professionals said none of their members were affected. A spokesman for the Canadian wing of the Building and Construction Trades Department, a group of 15 affiliate unions representing everyone from bricklayers to metals workers, declined comment.
"We're not going to get involved with this one," he said.
Interesting. Unions often espouse on how they support the "working man" and stand up for his rights against "powerful corporations". I guess that support is conditional on whether or not you're paying your Union dues. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 5:39:29 PM | Unions like any other group of people who have formed a legal organization are dependant on their leadership for the most part. Good leadership is as rare in unions as it is in management. Some Unions are good and some need their collective heads examined. To pass judgment on a labour action without knowing all the facts is sheer folly. As some of the original early posters found out by calling it a strike, then later finding out the company locked them out. Even today Unions have their place, but not every work place needs a Union. Unions get formed because management mistreats workers, so they band together in a Union because there is power in numbers. To say the workers should only get a slice of the profits if they invest money is narrow minded. Every day workers unionized or not invest in their employers with their labour, time and skills required. Without committed employees doing the “grunt” work none of these companies would exist. To call all unionized workers slackers or any other derogatory name shows your lack of intelligence and understanding. Everything that has been said disrespecting union members can be said about management and skilled/educated worked as well. It takes all kinds of people to make up a work force no matter what position they hold in the company. These workers have invested time and labour in their chosen work, some may even love doing the job they do, to walk away and find another job as has been suggested is again showing a lack of understanding. We all know the grass isn’t always greener on the other side of the fence and it’s just as hard to mow.
I think some of you anti union posters should look into the history of the Labour movement in Canada. They have done far more good for society than most other organizations. Who honestly believes that all the benefits that we take for granted today, would exist without the efforts made by the Labour movement of yesterday. They organized then lobbied and pressured governments to change laws and are still doing so. Things like paid overtime, safety standards, paid holidays, sick pay, compassionate leave, a 5 day work week, regulations regarding the hours of work in a day/week, pension plans, all of these things are the result of the Labour movement’s efforts. More recent changes include flexible work schedules , maternity leave and now you are seeing similar type of leave for the Dad’s creeping into the work place, and.
How soon we forget the sacrifices of those who have gone before us to make our lives a bit better. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 6:17:07 PM |
Things like paid overtime, safety standards, paid holidays, sick pay, compassionate leave, a 5 day work week, regulations regarding the hours of work in a day/week, pension plans, all of these things are the result of the Labour movement’s efforts.
IB, you're absolutely correct, organized labour WAS responsible for that. BUT..it's all about "what have you done for me lately". 1920 is not 2009.
The union's of today have almost zero business acumen and use their members as puppets for their own benefit. Unions ARE "big business" and they use their members as pawns to further their economic aspirations. Try this, join a union and take real issue with a union ideal..and watch what happens. Suddenly, it's no longer "solidarity" dude..you're a black sheep and any of your grievances have no weight or meaning. Basically, the Union mantra is "if you're not with us, you're against us". And they call that "supporting the common worker?".
And I agree with your point on calling unionized workers slackers or lazy. Just as many, if not more office types put in the minimal amount of effort at their desk to keep their jobs. People are out the door at 5 PM..pronto. Yet, they're the first in line expecting a raise. Well it's a free market system..and the cream rises to the top..you get paid what you're worth. And that's how it should be. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 6:39:33 PM | {quote]Try this, join a union and take real issue with a union ideal..and watch what happens. Suddenly, it's no longer "solidarity" dude..you're a black sheep and any of your grievances have no weight or meaning. Basically, the Union mantra is "if you're not with us, you're against us". And they call that "supporting the common worker?".
I can not speak for all unions but I can tell you a piece of my past. I was a union man , active in the union and a shop stewart. We had the national leadership come to our local, informing us they wanted all the plants across Canada to strike at the same time. Our members spoke out loudly and forceably angainst such action considering we didn't even know what the company was offering. Being on the excutive I heard their logic of wanting a nation wide strike. Our excecutive stood solidly behind our local members. We weren't punished in any fashion. I would guess too that the other cement plants across Canada gave them the same treatment, since there were no strikes that year.
Another little story for you. I was shop stewart, working the 4-12. We were in an emergancy situation and needed a extra set of hands. We asked a machanic(ex president of the local) to give us a hand. Got the not in my job description reply. Looked at the foreman and he gave us the extra hands. The next day I'm informed the mechanic wants to file a grievence. I explained what happen to the president and told him there was no way I would file that grievence. I tracked down the mechanic, gave him 20 mintues worth of dressing down and ripped his grievence up in front of him and all the other mechanics. That's a big no on within a union. I never heard a peep from him or any other mechanic about my actions. They knew I was right. There are bad apples every where and action needs to be taken to lessen their influence.
It's about leadership and treating fellow workers fairly. It's also about the realization that the bottom line is both sides want & need the same thing. To keep the company going. The workers have jobs and the company makes a profit.
So I don't buy you're arguement AE. I do have a question though, What are the union leadership's "economic aspirations" ? Not sure where you are coming from on that or what point you are trying to make. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 7:12:44 PM | So I don't buy you're arguement AE. I do have a question though, What are the union leadership's "economic aspirations" ? Not sure where you are coming from on that or what point you are trying to make.
1. Unions are businesses man, they have aspirations to make money, gain power, influence etc. They something like the 9th most powerful cluster of businesses in the world, right after the Catholic Church. Make no mistake, first and foremost, they are concerned about revenue.
2. I've been in two unions in my life. I was "required" to join both of them, pay dues, etc. It was common knowledge amongst the membership to not "rock the boat". Here are two examples
a. I worked in a warehouse and loaded trucks. My job was to put stickers on boxers while contract workers loaded up trucks. One of those contractors dropped a bottle of orange juice on the floor. The mistake I made was picking up a broom and going to clean it. I was shouted at by my shop steward who said I should call "maintenance" to do that. It wasn't my job. I called them and we sat there for 20 minutes waiting for a guy to come and sweep up a bottle. I wasn't that old but I remember thinking how stupid is this. At the time I was making 36K a year for putting stickers on a box.. I later spoke out against the union because we went on strike. I said it was stupid to strike over pennies and lose dollars. Things went downhill from there...i later left.
b. I worked PART TIME for a company. I paid a good chunk of union dues and never saw the union rep. Being the "free market idealist" I am and a greedy pig, I would often volunteer to do other people's shifts, duties, etc...to make a few bucks. After some time, my "enthusiasm" cause the attention of the union who sent me a strongly worded letter advising me the "protocol" of how things were done and to follow the "procedure". Wow...imagine..actually being motivated to go out and work at something and being reprimanded for it.
It was after "B" that I lost all respect for unions. Why should my motivation and desire to work be limited by some goof ball 500 kms up the highway?
In fact man, why should I even have to be paid overtime after 40 hours? If I want to work 60 hours a week at straight time, I should be able too. I can see laws for unskilled workers..but why should i have that? Those laws limit my ability to make money and I am MORE than happy to work the extra hours while you're at home watching TV.
Call me a capitalist dude. And I'm proud of that. And those limiting labour laws and union ideals are why I work for myself. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 7:49:08 PM |
If only we could all do one year in "Alberta Health Care" .. What did that woman make? over a million, and a 275,000 severance pay for nine months work?
Annonymiss....this person is a contractor - feed trough glutton.
AUPE unionized employees work a full 11.25 months per year, don't get raises let alone bonuses and will take the fall in layoffs to cut abudget shortfall created by these gluttons.
Now UNA employees are worse gluttons than contractors. Did you know a part time UNA employee can actually earn more than a full time worker? Yes, did you catch that...part time yet earning overtime hours. They work casual, call in sick and pick up another at different site or unit. They get paid twice for the same hours and they do it just because they can and feel its their right to milk the system.
But its employees who provide clean sheets and food to a sick patient, provide them and other employees with security, take those sick patients to their hospital tests and surgeries who will lose jobs....not the gluttons.
Rant almost done...will fume a little longer...but everyone is safe! | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 8:25:36 PM |
to walk away and find another job as has been suggested is again showing a lack of understanding. We all know the grass isn’t always greener on the other side of the fence and it’s just as hard to mow.
Sssshhhh. You're waking up the capitalists. That's exactly what they want you to think.
And those limiting labour laws and union ideals are why I work for myself.
Well done. Less tax too. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 8:38:17 PM |
The union's of today have almost zero business acumen and use their members as puppets for their own benefit. Unions ARE "big business" and they use their members as pawns to further their economic aspirations.
Unions are businesses man, they have aspirations to make money, gain power, influence etc. They something like the 9th most powerful cluster of businesses in the world, right after the Catholic Church.
For a group of people whom you state have almost zero business acumen, they're doing pretty darn good if they are the 9th most powerful cluster. Imagine where they would be if they had 50% of the business acumen the number 1 group has .... lol
You union experience and mine are the 2 sides of the coin. Like I said above, there are good unions and then there are those who need their collective heads examined. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 8:39:45 PM | Ok what am I missing here .. I gave back my highway tractor because it was not working enough to pay for it, due entirely to the economic downturn right now. So the day I gave it back a month ago I started a new job driving for some one else , only have to work 12 to 14
hours per day 6 days a week , over time after 8 hours and it is more than $ 21.oo per hr.
One, I wish I was at least 20 years younger and two , now I really have no time for a social life ... If it ain't raining it's snowing...
dustin | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/10/2009 9:57:24 PM | For a group of people whom you state have almost zero business acumen, they're doing pretty darn good if they are the 9th most powerful cluster. Imagine where they would be if they had 50% of the business acumen the number 1 group has .... lol
So you're telling me just because they have some business sense that they do the "right thing?". Organized crime..like bike gangs and the mafia has business sense too. They're a powerful "cluster" too. Is your ass going to celebrate them ?
Dude, Union = all about the power. All about the money. If you believe they "care" about you ...you prolly believe that "hookers" are excited to see you. | |
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| Safeway strikers
Posted: 9/11/2009 5:47:45 PM |
So you're telling me just because they have some business sense that they do the "right thing?".
I'm not telling you any such thing. I simply used what you said and asked you to imagine where they would be if they had 50% of the business acumen of the #1 business group. In other words where would they rank in your "business cluster" if they actually had some business acumen instead of "zero" like you said? Read & comprehend, then read again to make sure you understand what was said.
You go right ahead and believe unions are all about money, if that'll help you sleep at night. I would expect nothing less from someone who proudly claims to be a captialist. :) | |
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