| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/3/2009 11:46:38 AM | I'd just like to offer the following to anyone that is still under the impression that Michael Moore is somehow an honest and objective truth seeker rather than a very intelligent and manipulative man who uses his gift to coerce people into sharing his personal beliefs.
I'm sure this scene will be familiar to any of you that saw Bowling For Columbine.
Moore addresses the topic of the NRA rally that took place shortly after the shootings. He narrates, "Just ten days after the Columbine killings, despite the pleas of a community in mourning, Charlton Heston came to Denver and held a large pro-gun rally for the National Rifle Association." This is followed by a "quote" from Charlton Heston that says, "I have a message from the Mayor, Mr. Wellington Webb, the Mayor of Denver. He sent me this. It says 'don't come here. We don't want you here.' I said to the Mayor, this is our country, as Americans we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land. Don't come here? We're already here."
Mr. Heston certainly does sound like a cold hearted, insensitive prick who is more concerned with his 2nd ammendment right than the grieving families affected by the tragedy. It's too bad the actual speech went like this:
"I said to the Mayor, well, my reply to the mayor is, ' I volunteered for the war they wanted me to attend when I was 18 years old. Since then, I've run small errands for my country, from Nigeria to Vietnam. I know many of you here in this room could say the same thing.'"
Then at the end of the following paragraph:
"As Americans we're free to travel wherever we want in our broad land."
And then a full 5 paragraphs later:
"NRA members are in City Hall, Fort Carson, NORAD, the Air Force Academy and the Olympic Training Center. And yes, NRA members are surely among the police and fire and SWAT team heroes who risked their lives to rescue the students at Columbine.
Don't come here? We're already here. This community is our home. Every community in America is our home. We are a 128-year-old fixture of mainstream America. The Second Amendment ethic of lawful, responsible firearm ownership spans the broadest cross section of American life imaginable.
So, we have the same right as all other citizens to be here. To help shoulder the grief and share our sorrow and to offer our respectful, reassured voice to the national discourse that has erupted around this tragedy.
NRA members are, above all, Americans. That means that whatever our differences, we are respectful of one another and we stand united, especially in adversity."
Decide for yourself. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/3/2009 4:11:22 PM | Doesn't change the facts.
Two groups took the brunt of the blame for Columbine: The NRA and Marilyn Manson and even Marilyn Manson (a.k.a the Anti-christ) had a concert scheduled after Columbine and EVEN HE had the decency to cancel the concert out of respect for the families of Columbine. The NRA & Charlton Heston didn't care at all. They had a rally scheduled and went anyways over the protests of the families of Columbine.
So one can talk about semantics and language or you can judge people by there actions. I chose the latter. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/4/2009 1:15:06 PM | Read the speech that was given at the NRA rally after Columbine. You might change your mind or you might not.
It seems to me that most on the net feel that Moore distorts. I'm not too sure about the rest of America.
To echo what a previous poster said, What good is the awareness that Moore raises if it is distorted?
The drum that I have been beating endlessly on the blogs is that you all should look up the people that predicted this economic collapse YEARS before it happened. I cant think of any better info that this. But you gotta see it for yourself. When I keyword searched it a few names came up. Robert Schiller, Peter Schiff, Dean Baker, Nouriel Roubini. Watch them on YouTube. Maybe you all know or others.
If Michael Moore wanted to do this he could. He's not stupid. After watching these people I know that Moore is a big time liar. He only gives part of the truth, just like Rush or Hannity. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/4/2009 1:51:43 PM | Yes, the very smart guys you mentioned knew talked about the bubble/crash long before.
But so did the idiot "maestro" himself, calling housing a bit "frothy." He didn't pull the plug because he didn't wanna spoil the party, and he KNEW that hell would have to be paid.
I don't see what this has to do with Moore. Of course Moore distorts, like any showman.
Think about the logic of your post....the brilliant economic minds sounded the alarm long before...and nobody listened....so you want Moore to do the same thing....and be ignored as well. Makes no sense at all.
Moore's outrage sells tickets. Thinking people know that he's one sided and he always has an agenda.
I don't much like Michael Moore, but in this instance I am ecstatic that he pointed his camera at Wall St., because NOBODY is more deserving of our outrage than Wall St.
Those greedy a**holes have actually done so much damage that it's a risk to national security! People should be rioting on Wall St., as well as in Washington.
Most people have no idea just how much damage has been done. The thievery is beyond anything that the world has ever seen. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/4/2009 2:03:14 PM | | Well the weekend box office results are coming in. After taking up 940-something screens nationwide, this so-called documentary (ha!) was "packing them" in at something like 50-65 people per screen. If you consider that an average movie theatre has about a 250-person capacity, that's a LOT of empty seats. A number of movie complexes had devoted two screens to this thing, when half a screen would have been more than plenty. His diehard fans are still claiming this is a blockbuster that will catch on. I'm helping Moore's latest cause, by pledging not to spend a dime on it. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/4/2009 3:07:22 PM |
Doesn't change the facts.
Two groups took the brunt of the blame for Columbine: The NRA and Marilyn Manson
And as I'm sure you've learned through your own research, neither Harris nor Klebold even listened to Marilyn Manson. Indeed it doesn't change facts. People got blamed that had nothing to do with it.
If we're judging actions, perhaps we should look at the actions of those that rushed to find a scapegoat (i.e. Marilyn Manson and the NRA) rather than looking for what actually caused the tragedy. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/4/2009 3:26:28 PM | | If the film didn't do well over the weekend, it's actually ironically sort of a victim of the bad economy. A lot of people don't want to spend 9 or 10 dollars per seat right now, plus those ridiculous amounts they charge for the concessions, when they could rent or Netflix one or just watch one on cable instead. It's gotten so that taking a date to the movies, and buying some food and drinks in the lobby to take inside with you, comes close to around 40 dollars (that's around here at least, near Chicago). If you take the whole family with, add on accordingly (granted kids under a certain age cost less, but still...). I like Mike Moore, but I will say this: if he were TRULY dedicated to the anti-capitalism cause, why not mandate somehow that all screenings across the country be free , at least for the first couple weeks. I know he did do some free screenings early on. But still.... You want to get an anti-capitalist type of message out? There it is, IMO. Like Abbie Hoffman calling his first book "STEAL THIS BOOK". ;-) | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/5/2009 3:14:55 AM | To Former...
The point is that it's not just Wall Street as you know. And yes that is very important if accountability is important to you. Moore is ( in my bet) putting the blame squarely on Wall Street when they are in bed with the Gubment. And many of the sheeple participated too a la the home equity ATM.
So lets look on while capitalism is solely blamed while we run into the arms of a government that helped get us here to begin with. That's what Moore would have us do.
Come to think of it..Moore isn't stupid..I think...now I'm starting to think he is just out to destroy us. It's enough to make me sarcastically think that. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/5/2009 6:50:18 AM | The bulk of the damage was caused by the Fed in collusion with Wall St.
The dummies who got the loans couldn't even balance a checkbook, let alone understand what an option arm is. You can't blame the populace. Wall St. came up with the shi**y loan products that caused the mess, so Wall St. is to blame.
If we're destroyed, it's because of the greed on Wall St., not because Michael Moore is telling people about it. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/5/2009 3:16:26 PM | The Moore film is doing good. It's not a 'blockbuster type movie' so it's not going to gross that kind of money - nor does it need to.
Sicko was made with a budget of $9million and grossed $4.4mil it's opening weekend; it's total gross was around $24mil.
Capitalism grossed $4.5mil. this weekend so it is on par, if not doing better, than Sicko. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/5/2009 5:11:31 PM | Moore did not use union workers for all of the jobs in his newest film--Capitalism: A Love Story
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Business/michael-moore-snubs-union-workers-making-capitalism-love/Story?id=8715559&page=2 | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/5/2009 5:47:16 PM |
If Michael Moore wanted to do this he could. He's not stupid. After watching these people I know that Moore is a big time liar. He only gives part of the truth, just like Rush or Hannity.
I guess it's a matter of what part of the truth you find the most relevant .
That he annoys people that needs to be annoyed I truly enjoy. That people want to hate him so ~ just tells us how close to correct he is. ~ Who enjoys being exposed?
That he brings forward hypocrisy and disparity with such clearity and fine focus and making it laughable.
I enjoy Bob Newheart humor. ~ To keep a straight face and allow you to think I'm dumb is not an easy thing to pull off.
If they hate Moore ~ what might I feel for Rush and Beck?
Dance | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/5/2009 7:42:50 PM | A little off topic and kind of on this topic about censorship and ignorance...
Dino someone shut down Jimmy's thread on the proxy war. This has been happening too much lately. Some people just want to read PC tripe. If they don't like the thread don't read or post on it. Sheesh! Freedom of speech my *ss!!! Sick of this BS!!! | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/5/2009 9:37:59 PM | That is so wrong. No doubt there were some very upsetting things there for some people.
There was nothing in that thread that lots of folks haven't been thinking anyway. It's in the air. People are asking questions now, and that's a good thing.
Allowing the bankers to control the money supply would be like having the convicts run the prisons. Obviously a very bad idea, but that's what we have. That's what the Federal Reserve is; a banking cartel. Moore misses this in his film.
Moore also misses in his criticism of capitalism. We don't have capitalism. We have socialism for the rich. The banks privatize profits, then socialize losses. The Fed takes us away from the free market and into a planned economy, a gangster economy, a big fu**ing mess.
Hopefully Moore's film will at least get the conversation going. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/6/2009 2:49:18 PM | Former
"I don't see what this has to do with Moore. Of course Moore distorts, like any showman.
Think about the logic of your post....the brilliant economic minds sounded the alarm long before...and nobody listened....so you want Moore to do the same thing....and be ignored as well. Makes no sense at all."
My point here is to call BS where I see it. And Moore's BS is not giving the whole picture. That is just as damaging as an outright lie.
Seriously, it is the most obvious bit of common sense to see an huge economic calamity and afterwards ask "Gee. Was there anyone that foresaw this?" How many of could have known before? Not many, but we have no excuse not to know now. There has never been an easier time to find the economic truth sayers. If you don't see the logic in that then I don't know what to tell you.
It's amazing how many people don't think like this and it kills me. For those who want the easy finger of blame to point then there are people like Moore, Rush, Hannity ect... I guess Kool Aid just tastes too good. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/6/2009 3:59:01 PM | Oh MAN! The blogs were FILLED with people who knew what was happening! LONG BEFORE!
Greenspan knew, but didn't have the fortitude to act. And Wall St. was making soooooooooo much money.
Schiff knew, Roubini knew, Schiller knew, the list is very long.
The housing blogs were talking about the runup in prices starting in the early part of this century. There have to be at least 30 housing blogs and many of them are still up and running. Housing Panic, Housing Doom, Dr. Housing Bubble, etc.etc.etc.
Anybody with a lick of sense could clearly SEE that houses are not supposed to appreciate 25% yearly the way they were skyrocketing here in California.
It was obviously unsustainable and everybody in finance knew that it would end badly.
Hell, Goldman was SHORTING the same toxic crap that they were SELLING to pension funds!
The mortgage brokers only cared that the "homeowner" would not default within the first three months so they could get their commission, and after that they didn't care what happened, since the note got passed on, and the bankers knew that they had the taxpayers for a backstop.
There were people screaming about this shit long before the bottom fell out of the market. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/6/2009 7:35:20 PM |
The Moore film is doing good. It's not a 'blockbuster type movie' so it's not going to gross that kind of money - nor does it need to.
Sicko was made with a budget of $9million and grossed $4.4mil it's opening weekend; it's total gross was around $24mil.
Capitalism grossed $4.5mil. this weekend so it is on par, if not doing better, than Sicko.
How many screens did Sicko open with?
Oh MAN! The blogs were FILLED with people who knew what was happening! LONG BEFORE!
Greenspan knew, but didn't have the fortitude to act. And Wall St. was making soooooooooo much money.
Schiff knew, Roubini knew, Schiller knew, the list is very long.
Heck, I knew too and not from reading or listening to blogs or pundits, etc. It was quite obvious since at least 2005 that something fundamentally bad was in the process of happening. I knew simply from the performance of my business and the sentiments of customers, many of whom were moving to get out of Dodge - only to move to a worse Dodge. Some of them are actually even moving back in now that they're highly-touted new jobs have evaporated.
The thing is - if Greenspan had pulled the plug a couple of years earlier, we'd just be two years further along in this recession than we are now. There was no safety net built when the economy was hot. The thing that irks me is that no one in any position of power - be it government or business - did a thing to mitigate what was surely coming. They continued to wade right into it full-speed ahead. Didn't we have liberals in the Congress during this time? What were they all doing?
Counting their money like everyone else.
My beef with Moore - what has he exposed that wasn't already widespread knowledge? I mean in any of his works of art? He just takes a subject and runs with it, seeming to be the guy revealing the truth to the ignorant. What has he uncovered in any of his films that was actually 1) new AND 2) informative? He's just repackaging the evening news, re-selling it and making millions while pretending to be just a regular guy. "Preaching to the converted" is how I read it in one story. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/6/2009 9:18:28 PM | I think alot of educated people knew another crash was coming it was only a matter of when. I gotta go out and see this thing. But I'll probably end up seeing it on DVD.
What get's me about these crashes is how some economists decide "okay it's crash time now." Then everyone gets all scared and stops buying stuff and then the economy crashes. Now in Canada they're saying we're coming out of the recession. When does this magically happen? Seems artificial and man-made. How much money did the rich make during this thing? It would have been the best time to buy companies. And how many competitors went under in a few months or the couple of years its been occurring now?
I'm sure Moore like all his previous movies goes through who and whats going on. Again this may not be news for some and some obviously still many don't like Moore. He's no Rush though for sure come on! Do we always need Harvard scholars with the personality of turtles explain to us what's going on? Again, I like him for the fact that he's putting this stuff on the big screen and he has got alot of people talking which is good. I think your average Joe didn't know about the real goings on in the Bush administration. What was worse IMO is how people were criticized for being anti-war. The Dixie Chicks got it (don't really care for them) and Bill Maher as well. Maher's timing wasn't very tactful however I know. America's response to WMD's and Iraq was scarier however. How much money and lives did that cost which added to this problem we're having now?
Business people like politicians should be more accountable. Many of them were responsible for actively or not being active to what went on. North American can't continue the way it was going and crashed. These people have to be controlled or they'll do it again. This plunder and parachute mentality has to end in corporate America. And Moore for addressing this, made many see who was responsible and what they did.
I personally think this continent is on it's last breaths anyhow. We're in too much debt and over populated etc. I think some of the rich have and will totally relocate (again) to China and India etc and create middle classes to buy their crap and it'll be done here. Buy making people aware of who ripped them off and how they stole and ran, people can see what's really going on and maybe stop them. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/6/2009 9:22:04 PM | You're absolutely correct that he isn't exposing anything NEW.
However, he does have the ability to simplify complex matters so that the ignorant populace can understand. And by ignorant I don't mean to sound superior, I mean ignorant in that they simply don't understand what has happened.
Moore has the ability to influence and change people's minds. His past successes give him a pretty tall soapbox.
I'm not a big fan, but I do think that economic matters are so vitally important that I am thrilled about this new work.
If he gets people to ask some basic questions then he has done his job. I don't care how much he makes doing it. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/14/2009 10:34:13 PM | | One of the few instances in which I will be elitist is when it comes to ignorance. Smart or dumb, I can always attempt to inform myself. I excuse the dumb but not the ignorant. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/15/2009 5:35:46 AM | Michael Moore interview on Sean Hannity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgO4ptNHboc | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/15/2009 8:44:34 PM | GWU student gets Michael Moore to admit that we do not have true capitalism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwQ41Yo60og
Even Michael Moore realizes that we haven't had anything close to capitalism for over 100 years. This student gets him to admit it is actually "corporatism". | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/15/2009 9:47:44 PM |
Yes capitalism is bad. It freed the slaves,
It was exactly because of capitalism that there were slaves!
it freed Europe from Fascism
In partnership with Communist Russia.
Capitalism, tempered by social responsibility is a very good thing, rampant capitalism of the like practiced by Wall Street in the past 20 years is psychotic. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/15/2009 10:57:10 PM |
LOL..I suppose we can still appreciate his creative ability to amass a following. Mr. Moore has been able to tap into an unending source of revenue because he advocates an opinion that many of his compatriots believe in.
Maybe his next film will examine how he's personally benefited from the fruits of capitalism.
I don't know where you stand, politically, but I had to comment here.
I love this tired rationalization -- usually from right-wing, pro-corporation, anti-Moore bloviators -- that tries to suggest that because has made a bit of coin from his work, he's somehow a hypocrite. ... That's excellent.
If the man didn't turn a profit for his effort, he'd never be able to make advocacy films in the first place. He's probably given more to charity than everyone on this site, combined. 60% of the profits from Fahrenheit went to charity. I'll bet you didn't know that. | |
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| Capitalism: A Love Story
Posted: 10/16/2009 7:30:45 AM | If the man didn't turn a profit for his effort, he'd never be able to make advocacy films in the first place. He's probably given more to charity than everyone on this site, combined. 60% of the profits from Fahrenheit went to charity. I'll bet you didn't know that.
They are just attacking the messenger ~ and I didn't know that!
GWU student gets Michael Moore to admit that we do not have true capitalism: Was that a hard thing to do?
You're absolutely correct that he isn't exposing anything NEW.
However, he does have the ability to simplify complex matters so that the ignorant populace can understand. And by ignorant I don't mean to sound superior, I mean ignorant in that they simply don't understand what has happened.
Moore has the ability to influence and change people's minds. His past successes give him a pretty tall soapbox.
And it's this ability that angers some so! ~ He plants seeds that make people ask much harder question. ~ They don't like "hard" questions!
It's amazing how many people don't think like this and it kills me. For those who want the easy finger of blame to point then there are people like Moore, Rush, Hannity ect.
You compare apples with oranges and lost your argument.
.the brilliant economic minds sounded the alarm long before...and nobody listened....so you want Moore to do the same thing....and be ignored as well. Makes no sense at all." Well, I did ! as you said, as early as 82 ~ but who bothers listening to a plumber?
We don't have capitalism. We have socialism for the rich. The banks privatize profits, then socialize losses. The Fed takes us away from the free market and into a planned economy, a gangster economy, a big fu**ing mess. That what it's looking like from where I stand as well. ~ Today , we're still in the tank yet Wall Street is handing out bonus! ????? Now, ~ how does that work? I wonder?
Things need to change ! ~ It won't be quick or easy ~ but things have gotta change.
Dance | |
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