|
|
|
|
|
- don
|
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 26 | |
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/13/2009 2:52:33 PM |
The rep said that if you run Leopard alongside Windows, that the system will be slower. At this point in time I don't see a reason for really running both at the same time for what I will be doing. I realize that the re-boot will take time ...... but my systems logic seems to lean me towards feeling that the system will run cleaner when booted separately.
He also recommended not to update Windows with any updates, when I inquired about the automatic updates. I shouldn't need the updates since I will be accessing the Internet most of the time through my MAC boot.
... yet I still have my hesitations in believing that Windows will run without a hitch on the MAC .......
I will follow up on the links you have all posted .......
... what I really want to hear as well is the real live experience of any of you who have run Windows on the MAC. Theory is one thing ..... but practical use is another!
I've had a lot of real live experience with both scenarios on Linux/Windows (very similar Mac) and I've owned a Mac (iBook G4) and I can tell you that you should get another opinion from a 'Mac Genius' who has actually done it both ways. (don't mistake their ego for experience...they have a bad reputation for acting like they know it all when they don't.
Sounds like you will be spending a lot of time reinstalling Windows (not installing updates for Windows is asking for trouble) and sounds like he's never used VMware.
To me, it sounds like he shouldn't be giving any advice about anything other than Mac....He doesn't know what he's talking about.
I think you should ask another 'Genius' what they think....one who has done it....If there aren't any at the Mac Store, I think they should call another store for you to find out because that's a big purchase.
Just my opinion | |
|
- don
|
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 27 | |
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/13/2009 3:55:02 PM | If you use Windows on the Internet at all (even just being connected to the Internet), you need updates and antivirus....malware finds you, you don't need to go searching for it.
If you use VMware, Windows will run flawlessly (well...as flawless as Windows can & you still need antivirus & updates) and it will only slow you down when you're running both OSes at the same time.
VMware specializes in enterprise virtualization and have been doing it with Mac for over 10 years...It is extremely stable.
Don't take my word for it, check it out:
http://www.vmware.com/products/fusion/
Video:
http://download3.vmware.com/demos/fusion/ | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/13/2009 7:27:52 PM | Bladerunnner,
I'll be using the Windows side (It'll be Vista btw) to support my work at school. Our school board and my school uses Windows.
I'll be using the MAC for all else ..... I don't play games other than poker .... not for the gambling! ... but for the strategy ... but, the site I use supports the MAC .... since a MAC user got me started on that site! 
I decided to get a MAC now to get experience with it to see if it is all it is made out to be, since it sounds like more software is available for the MAC now, and you can run Windoes on it ..... I just want to ensure it runs without hitches!
But, I wanted to ensure I can still do my work for school.
I hope to get more involved with pictures and videos and just see how the user interface works, etc.
My feeling is that the MAC is gaining more market share. It will be interesting to see how the iPhone competes with the Blackberry, etc.
Don,
I have never installed updates to my existing Windows operating system and have never had to reinstall it. I am a very careful user, so don't have to reinstall ever ....... so far, that is ............so, I don't know why you say what you say .........
btw ... I am purchasing from a store that sells mostly PCs ............. it is not a MAC store ......... this guy knows both operating systems, from what I can see ...... I am computere literate, so I don't get smoozed that easily .............. I do have an IT degree ....... from many years ago! | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/13/2009 7:55:56 PM | Energy - you never mentioned what software you would be running on the Windows side - despite a few hints. Is it special-purpose - written for the school? Otherwise, much of the standard software is available in versions for both Mac and PC. I have to integrate both systems and don't find major problems with most applications (other than having to buy both Mac and PC versions, but the educational discounts make that relatively easy). In other words, you my be able to get away with just OS 10 software.
It's been 3 years since I ran a virtual Windows machine on my Mac. Can't even remember what the system was now, but I never encountered any problems with software not working. I'd agree with don that the virtual Windows machine is very stable. | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/13/2009 8:59:58 PM | | My experience with Mac was not to great. After all of the hype ended up using the mac system down in DC. My impression was it was no better than windows, both suck in my opinion. They crashed just as much as any of my windows pc's or laptops. Wasnt impressed at all. | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/13/2009 10:03:07 PM | Quietjohn2,
We run the Office Suite of applications mostly ..... I also need to access the ABEL site (Broadband Enabled Learning) that I am starting to use with my teaching.
I will contact them to ensure that I can access the site through my MAC.
I'll also start to use other applications to create videos, photo story boards, etc using Comic Life, PStory, etc.... I'll also access SMART software (Notebook 10), Smart Ideas, etc.
This poses a question, that you all may be able to answer.
I believe I know the answer, but I want to be sure.
If I create a WORD document for example in Windows, I should be able to copy it through my MAC to this ABEL account, is that right? It will be simply copying a file, is that correct?
I want to ensure I create documents through Windows to reduce any problems with the documents I bring back and forth from school. | |
|
- don
|
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 32 | |
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/13/2009 10:51:04 PM |
Don,
I have never installed updates to my existing Windows operating system and have never had to reinstall it. I am a very careful user, so don't have to reinstall ever ....... so far, that is ............so, I don't know why you say what you say .........
I said what I said because not installing security updates and not patching security flaws is a serious issue and will lead to malware infections on your PC....and I don't mean maybe.
Many users don't know their PC is infected until it slows to a grinding halt.
Unless you are only connecting through a very secure LAN, I would be very surprised to find out that your un-patched Windows installation is malware-free and I would consider switching my major to something other than Network Security.
This website has a lot of great info on security:
http://www.securityfocus.com/
http://www.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities
Vista:
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/13223/
Here are a couple specifics:
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/13223/?task=advisories_2009
Microsoft Windows HTTP Services Multiple Vulnerabilities
Vendor Patch. Secunia Advisory 15 of 18 in 2009. 7,219 views.
Release Date:
2009-04-14
Where:From remote
Short Description:
Some vulnerabilities have been reported in Microsoft Windows, which can be exploited by malicious people to conduct spoofing attacks or compromise a user's system.
__________________________________
Windows Embedded OpenType Font Engine Two Vulnerabilities
Vendor Patch. Secunia Advisory 11 of 18 in 2009. 6,298 views.
Release Date:
2009-07-14 Secunia Advisory ID:
SA35773 Solution Status:
Where:From remote
Short Description:
Two vulnerabilities have been reported in Microsoft Windows, which can be exploited by malicious people to compromise a user's system.
XP:
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/22/
===============================================
btw ... I am purchasing from a store that sells mostly PCs ............. it is not a MAC store ......... this guy knows both operating systems, from what I can see ...... I am computere literate, so I don't get smoozed that easily .............. I do have an IT degree ....... from many years ago!
Ok...I guess they know what they are talking about then since they sell PCs and Macs, so I'll keep my opinions/suggestions to myself.
I just hope it's not Best Buy or Fry's Electronics. 
Take Care,
Don | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/14/2009 12:01:43 AM |
We run the Office Suite of applications mostly ..... I also need to access the ABEL site (Broadband Enabled Learning) that I am starting to use with my teaching. Office Suite runs fine on the Mac - and produces files that are compatible with Windows. I regularly exchange Word, PowerPoint and Excel files between Mac and Windows machines. QuarkExpress used to have slight layout differences but I've not used it recently.
Apple have their own internet browser and there are also Mac versions of most common browsers including Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Internet access (and file generation) should be the same for Macs and Windows.
I'll also start to use other applications to create videos, photo story boards, etc using Comic Life, PStory, etc.... I'll also access SMART software (Notebook 10), Smart Ideas, etc.
Comic life is available - http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/imaging_3d/comiclife.html
SMART software too - http://www2.smarttech.com/st/en-US/Support/Downloads/SBS/NBSv10MacEval.htm
PStory seems to be Windows - only. I'm not sure how close IPhoto is on the Mac, or how you need to use it. I think the PStory output is .wmv files. That would need an extra step from IPhoto.
If you can collect all of your possible applications together, your store may be able to demo them for you and provide more detailed info. | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/14/2009 1:06:22 AM | 1. virus protection for macs haven't caught on yet. their primary defense is their market share is around 10% and so they aren't a huge target. the latest hacker con shows that macs are indeed vulnerable to virus attacks. it's not a huge issue yet, but could be in the future.
2. there are several ways to run windows on mac hardware; either as a dual boot situation (using boot camp) or through a virtual machine (such as parallels). in both cases you'd just update it like you normally would--run windows updates while windows is running.
3. any software that is designed for windows will run while windows is running (even parallels--parallels recently added hardware video acceleration though so i don't know how fast and bug-free it is--and only up to directx9; so no vista directx 10 games :-) ).
4. if it is, not very noticeable.
5. Macs can run windows, it shouldn't make a difference. as i said, either use boot camp or some virtual machine solution such as vmware or parallels. there will be a little bit of a speed hit when running windows in a virtual machine, but that is true in any OS.
6. well you get to run MacOS... and with some vm solutions such as fusion; you can run windows applications while running MacOS at the same time. other than price tag and some initial pain with set up--there is no real downside. | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/14/2009 10:45:04 AM |
I'll be using the Windows side (It'll be Vista btw) to support my work at school. Our school board and my school uses Windows.
I'll be using the MAC for all else ..... I don't play games other than poker .... not for the gambling! ... but for the strategy ... but, the site I use supports the MAC .... since a MAC user got me started on that site!
I decided to get a MAC now to get experience with it to see if it is all it is made out to be, since it sounds like more software is available for the MAC now, and you can run Windoes on it ..... I just want to ensure it runs without hitches!
But, I wanted to ensure I can still do my work for school.
I hope to get more involved with pictures and videos and just see how the user interface works, etc.
My feeling is that the MAC is gaining more market share. It will be interesting to see how the iPhone competes with the Blackberry, etc.
Don,
I have never installed updates to my existing Windows operating system and have never had to reinstall it. I am a very careful user, so don't have to reinstall ever ....... so far, that is ............so, I don't know why you say what you say .........
btw ... I am purchasing from a store that sells mostly PCs ............. it is not a MAC store ......... this guy knows both operating systems, from what I can see ...... I am computere literate, so I don't get smoozed that easily .............. I do have an IT degree ....... from many years ago!
Good call, I doubt you will be disapointed, the learning curve can be steep but might turn out to be worth it in your case.
About Windows though, I would keep pace with updates, even if you dont use it to surf the net an stuff some of them are needed anyway, the system simply having access to the internet is enough for some worms to get you, worms that can be rendered usless simply by updating windows.
I used to run a cluster of 4 servers running Windows 2000 Advanced Server, I never updated them but because they were never internet facing I never needed to worry [uninterupted uptime on them was over two years straight for all four servers], your Vista will be internet facing.
I understand your point of view about updates, if I had updated my servers i would have struggled to get to a year [which is being very optermistic], but these days things have changed. | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/14/2009 12:00:44 PM |
virus protection for macs haven't caught on yet Funny- I used Mac virus protection for years and didn't know this. McAfee and Norton had Mac anti-virus software in the 90s, Symantec and Sophos have been in the Mac anti-virus software business for years too. And that doesn't include the freebies and other organizations watching out for viruss going back to the hypercard stack virus in the 80s | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/14/2009 12:08:38 PM |
If you use Windows on the Internet at all (even just being connected to the Internet), you need updates and antivirus....malware finds you, you don't need to go searching for it.
If you use VMware, Windows will run flawlessly (well...as flawless as Windows can & you still need antivirus & updates) and it will only slow you down when you're running both OSes at the same time.
VMware specializes in enterprise virtualization and have been doing it with Mac for over 10 years...It is extremely stable.
Don't take my word for it, check it out:
http://www.vmware.com/products/fusion/
Video:
http://download3.vmware.com/demos/fusion If you decide to go the virtualization route, there are a couple of alternatives I'd recommend checking out:
Parallels, which is a virtualization program developed and optimized for the Macintosh:
http://www.parallels.com/products/desktop/
And VirtualBox, which -like VMware- runs on Windows, Linux and Macintosh; but it's freely available (and, unlike it's competitors, is Open Source; which means there will likely always be a free version available).
Depending on what you're doing, all three products have their strenths and weaknesses; my personal choice is VirtualBox -it's free and the interface works "well enough". If you're just running windows, I think probably all three are going to do what you need them to do. | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/14/2009 12:12:16 PM |
And VirtualBox, which -like VMware- runs on Windows, Linux and Macintosh; but it's freely available (and, unlike it's competitors, is Open Source; which means there will likely always be a free version available). Still on my first cup of coffee -here's the URL:
http://www.virtualbox.org
Also, if you're interested in an excrutiating breakdown, (involving several programs not mentioned) check out this link for a comparision of features:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_platform_virtual_machines | |
|
- don
|
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 39 | |
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/14/2009 1:59:32 PM |
Still on my first cup of coffee
Is that the fresh brewed Ubuntu with the Micro blend from Sun
Here are some neat security toys to virtualize with if you haven't tried them:
BackTrack:
http://www.remote-exploit.org/backtrack.html
Untangle:
http://www.untangle.com/
GroundWork Monitor (Community Edition-free):
http://www.groundworkopensource.com/
EnGarde:
http://www.engardelinux.org/
_____________________________
Another nice thing about VMware are all of the Virtual Appliances:
http://www.vmware.com/appliances/ | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/14/2009 4:50:52 PM | Thank you all for all this great information.
.... yes, I have never updated my Windows ... and my system has never come to a crashing halt! .... so far at least! ... I may be tempting fate with this statement!
I spent time tonight discussing with a colleague of mine who is an avid MAC user ...... he would have spent all night on this topic!
I also plan to use the strengths of the MAC for photos, video, music, etc .......
I have decided to call Apple direct and purchase that way .........
I'll keep you posted with my decided purchase ...... so you can critique! | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/14/2009 5:46:22 PM | What!
I also plan to use the strengths of the MAC for photos, video, music, etc .......
You do know that thats not the case anymore dont you.
Since Mac went to intel x86 and x64 architecture the Windows OS has taken the crown from Apple.
Thats what I do for a living, thats what keeps me wearing designer labels rather than bargin basement, and im telling you a Windows PC beats a mac at video, music and photo editing.
Ive been there and tried it, and Im telling you Windows is better now, because of the intergration levels Windows has attained with hardware manufacturers.
The problem I had was my Quadro drivers in OS X couldnt use the advanced feature set of the cards hardware.
A GPU is better at rendering than a CPU is, OS X doesnt allow it, or not on the better faster cards anyway, Windows does, which even when a computer is fitted with the exact same hardware a Windows PC can squeeze more performace out of the hardware because the hardware manufacturer is in bed with Microsoft.
Sometimes bed partener manufacturers is good for consumers and bad for rival manufacturers... | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/14/2009 10:47:33 PM | ^^^^
BladeRunner,
That is the first time I have heard that.
My guess is that avid MAC users will not agree.
I did not know about GPUs .... I just looked it up!
I am surprised that MACs do not use them.
Mr. Gates shows again what type of competitor he is!
... not the sleeping with the enemy .... oh sorry .... sleeping with the manufacturer! ..... but with trying to keep ahead of Apple.
If GPUs are better, then I expect that Apple will begin using them .. or allowing the use of them.
So, I guess my original thought that the video, resolution, etc of the MAC being of superior quality is not necessarily true anymore.
So, it seems that you feel the only advantage of the MAC now is the "look" which I interpret that to mean the user friendliness of its GUI?
What about the robustness and reliability of the operating system? MAC users still stand by that. | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/15/2009 8:57:26 PM |
The problem I had was my Quadro drivers in OS X couldnt use the advanced feature set of the cards hardware.
A GPU is better at rendering than a CPU is, OS X doesnt allow it, or not on the better faster cards anyway, Windows does, which even when a computer is fitted with the exact same hardware a Windows PC can squeeze more performace out of the hardware because the hardware manufacturer is in bed with Microsoft.
I researched this and there are many references to and OS X supporting GPUs, so what do you mean? | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/15/2009 10:43:56 PM | I have decided to purchase my MAC straight from Apple ... possibly this coming weekend when I can take more time to decide which one to get and with what additional features and support. I feel more comfortable with getting support straight from Apple rather than a general electronic retail store.
In talking to an Apple rep, he thought you meant that some of the gaming software only runs on the Windows platform with their video cards using GPUs ... MACs have not been concentrating on the gaming market.
Apparently MACs have been using GPUs for a very long time now ..........
I look forward to hear what you meant about your comment on GPUs. | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/16/2009 6:19:10 AM |
Apparently MACs have been using GPUs for a very long time now .........
Yes . . but I wouldn't be getting too sidetracked with the GPU stuff. It's really a non issue for the vast majority of people.
All this GPU talk is a reflection of a general trend across all manufacturers to take advantage of the very powerful GPU's already installed in pretty much any recent/decent PC/Mac.
This type of technology will supposedly make the likes of webcam-based lip reading a reality for any PC / Mac . . and apparently that's a good thing. 
You could start reading up on the technology as it relates to OS X from here if your interested.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/09/opencl_1_released/
If you're wanting to do more research or ask questions regarding Mac's in general, then the Apple Forums provide lot of information:
http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa
The problem I had was my Quadro drivers in OS X couldnt use the advanced feature set of the cards hardware.
I'm guessing this might be older information from an older system?
In any event, it seems to be supported in the latest version of OS X - Snow Leopard. I'm not aware of the support level prior to that.
Nvidia's integration of the CUDA architecture across its brands and segments enables it to offer Apple users a broad selection of 10 GPU models officially supported by Snow Leopard," an Nvidia spokesperson explained. "The 10 GPU models include: GeForce 9400M, GeForce 9600M GT, GeForce 8600M GT, GeForce GT 120, GeForce GT 130, GeForce GTX 285, GeForce 8800 GT, GeForce 8800 GS, Quadro FX 4800, and Quadro FX 5600.
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/43881/135/ | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/16/2009 7:09:34 AM |
I know apple dont support it.
If OS X is as good as you say apple wont need to support it will they?
After all its the prefect OS, so your point is rather pointless ;)
Thats because they are trying to run a Hackintosh. Apple sells computer systems, not just separate software or hardware. Thats why they work so well. An operating system that was programmed to work with specific hardware. Windows, obviously is designed to work with as many systems as possible.
Trying to get MacOSX to run on hardware it was not designed for, of course there will be more problems & subsequently no support for.
Even if one does get it to run on a regular pc, in the long run, it won't be as stable. After a few updates often breaks it. One would be better off running Linux on it.
GPU's have been available for mac's for quite some time now. Even mac mini's come with one now. Just not maybe the GPU's you are wanting perhaps.
I have been running Linux for 15 years now & for the last 5 years I have been windows free. I've never had a virus, or malware yet. Not to say it will never happen though. I would think macs would have similar results.
Just had a my sons windows vista machine over come by virus/malware already. | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/16/2009 7:34:06 AM |
I look forward to hear what you meant about your comment on GPUs
nVidia have not long released the FX 4800 driver for adobe products.
http://www.nvidia.com/object/builtforadobepros.html
If you take a look at that link you will see that the only card supported in this way is the FX4800, it falls in the mid range of cards.
At the time I checked out OS X there was no driver for it, there is now [typical really].
The drivers allow the application to take control of the cards GPU/GPUs.
Normally with device drivers loaded the OS will control them and the application uses them on that basis, with a specially tuned driver the application has access to the GPU in its own right, so it can use the advanced abilities of the card, a GPU is better and faster at rendering than a CPU is, but you need the drivers to take advantage of it.
Im not taking about gaming, the gulf between gaming on a GeForce and working on a Quadro is massive, to the point you cant compare performace of a Quadro to a GeForce even though the Quadro is based on that GeForce card.
Watch the Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 video link, its very small and takes just a few seconds.
It shows the performce difference between a CPU and a GPU for rendering.
That example is on a very small render, imagine if that render takes hours rather than seconds, and then you will see the advantage a tuned driver has. | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/17/2009 11:09:51 AM | If all you're going to do is run windows on a Mac then you loose all advantages of using a MAC-security, stability, performance (eg 2GM RAM on a MAC is equivalent to 4GB on windows), and hardware that 'just works!' The only advantage left then is that the system is beautifully designed and constructed out of metal that fits perfectly and feels solit instead of flimsy plastic like you get on many windows systems. (I hope Apple never gets as cheap as Dell or HP) .
1. The threat of getting malware on your system, even on windows, has drastically been overblown by virus and security software companies to get you to buy their product. Mac historically has been inherently more secure because up you do not have to run as ROOT like you do on windows, but there are the odd exploit here and there, but they are few and far between. As far as the market share argument, if MAC has 5% then they should have 5% of the viruses, but it doesn't...it's more like 0.01%
2. What's the point? Get a windows box if you predominantly need to use windows.
3. yes
4. Mac is gaining .5-1% per year , which doesn't sound like much in relative terms, but in absolute terms that amounts to a few million of system.
5. No.
6. See first paragraph. | |
|
- don
|
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 49 | |
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/17/2009 3:03:40 PM |
If all you're going to do is run windows on a Mac then you loose all advantages of using a MAC-security, stability, performance (eg 2GM RAM on a MAC is equivalent to 4GB on windows), and hardware that 'just works!'
Only true in a dual-boot situation.
1. The threat of getting malware on your system, even on windows, has drastically been overblown by virus and security software companies to get you to buy their product.
Not true, malware is all over the Internet, some sites even do "drive-by malware attacks" that will infect your un-patched/out-of-date machine and more....
Here are a few articles:
http://www.technibble.com/basic-computer-protection-and-defense/print/
http://www.technibble.com/why-do-people-create-computer-viruses/print/
http://www.technibble.com/the-importance-of-patching/print/
2. What's the point? Get a windows box if you predominantly need to use windows.
Agreed....If the only benefit someone will get out of using a Mac is 'A Robust OS' ...how robust does a home user need their OS to be? And spending extra money to go through Mac just to use Windows doesn't make much sense to me, why not just get a Windows box if security isn't a concern ....but I guess everyone has their own way of doing things (myself included) | |
|
| Are more of you purchasing MAC systems over Windows?
Posted: 9/17/2009 5:52:39 PM | All I will do on my MAC is not only to run Windows .... as you see with my previous posts ........
.. but I still need to run Windows in order to use some software that runs on Windows and not on the MAC ..... to be in sync with my school.
I thank everyone for their input here. Much of it has been useful and has added to what I have learned through other colleagues, friends, etc.
I have decided that I will get a MAC ..... then I can experience first hand the advantages of a MAC .... the market share does appear to be increasing .... time will tell what will unfold in the future.
Also, I don't feel that the MAC is that much more expensive when you compare the same configurations ..... or as close as to the same as you can get ......
As far as the market share argument, if MAC has 5% then they should have 5% of the viruses, but it doesn't...it's more like 0.01%
Interesting logic ......... is this like if 5% of Canadians smoke, then these 5% opf Canadians should have 5% of the flu viruses? Where is the relationship? | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
