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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 3:08:15 AM | Well..you broke the rules in disciplining the child, and you were fired for that. I can agree with her action as far as firing you as a camp counseler. But I don't think she should have fired you from the fitness center just for talking to a camper. Was that the only reason she gave? Is there a rule that say fitness center workers cannot talk to campers? If not you may have a case there, sounds like a pretty bullshyt reason to fire u from that job.
But like I said, I can agree with firing u from the first job. You broke the rules, and while most bosses would have given u a warning and not fired you, this one chose not to. Unless there's a policy in place that says she has to give u X amount of warnings before firing you, you don't really have a case. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 3:14:14 AM |
But I don't think she should have fired you from the fitness center just for talking to a camper. What he doesn't explain is the topic of conversation... or whether or not he was disregarding his job by his lack of attention to it...
I'm apt to side with the employer again on this one as it is reasonable that the incident was being discussed between and employee and clients. Huge no-no in the service world... | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 4:31:44 AM | This is a tragedy. When I was a child, discipline was swift and generally delivered with a riding crop, a wooden paddle, or a yardstick. Since I am something of a natural smartass and rebel, this forced me to become much more discriminating as to the nature of my infractions and very much more clever in their execution. Even my teachers had to laugh at some of my pranks before the inevitable >WHACK<.
These unruly kids are being shortchanged by not being motivated to improve their MOs. Their lives will be less compelling and they won't be nearly as interesting as adults than they might have been had they been encouraged to develop a bit of chutzpah.
Mediocrity triumphs once again. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 4:42:02 AM | | So being a counselor and working at the fitness center are two separate jobs with separate paychecks? It sucks that you got fired from being a counselor, but they did have an excuse to do so, maybe not a good one, but still. Being fired from the fitness jobs sounds like a lawsuit though. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 5:01:54 AM | Being fired from the fitness jobs sounds like a lawsuit though. Not necessarily. If he was speaking in a disparaging manner regarding the incident or anyone involved in the incident, then there is justification for dismissal.
Quite often when dealing with the public, it's not only the act of impropriety, it's also the appearance of impropriety that's important and dismissable. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 5:20:29 AM | The bottom line is that neither of these terminations appear to be for "just cause." As far as we know, he didn't speak disparagingly of either employer and he didn't abuse the kids. While it may not have been discipline that fell directly in line with procedure, it was not abuse. If the kid couldn't hold his push up for a full 15 seconds, what was the OP going to do, beat the crap out of him? Seems very unlikely, since he had held the position for 3 years.
Juvenile attitudes towards any authority figure are often severely lacking, and are often fueled by introjected parents. Personally, I could never go into teaching, because I wouldn't be able to tolerate the parents. Your employer took the path of least resistance by firing you after being faced with the prospect of dealing with whining parents who revolt against the demands of authority.
it's also the appearance of impropriety that's important and dismissable.
It is not only NOT dismissable, but the appearance of impropriety requires investigation, does it not? If employers are firing employees because they "believe" in their heart of hearts that there is impropriety, without actually attempting to make a determination, they will find themselves on the receiving end of a lawsuit sooner or later.
Best of Luck to you...... | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 5:40:43 AM | I don't see how the OP has any case.While the employer did not act with any consideration for the OP, there are no laws requiring employers to be nice people.
While some are focusing on the sense of self-entitlement the parents must have had, I can't help but notice the sense of entitlement (to a job) that many here are expressing.
The OP has no right or claim on that job. It is the employers' job to give, and the employers' job to take away. As long as it's not for any reason that has been prohibited by law (ex for reasons of race, gender, etc) then an employer can fire someone for ANY reason at all, good or bad, reasonable or not.
As another poster pointed out, the OP put his employer in a potentially dangerous position. Using force against a child is not a smart move for a business that's meant to make a profit. Also, as an adult working in the field of child care, you should know how to outsmart a 10yo child and get the child to listen to you without using force. It's not that hard to do.
I suggest you look for a union job. A union is the only thing that can protect an employee against an inreasonable boss. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 5:55:24 AM | OP, since you asked, this is what I think:
I think you are in a very difficult position right now.
I think it is hard to lose a job that you have had for a while.
I think it's hard to be fired.
I think it's hard to be unemployed.
I think the camp likely has protocols about consequences/discipline/punishment that you probably violated.
I think your level of education is irrelevant.
I think you are not presenting all of the information that is relevant.
I think it is extremely unlikely that you asked a camper to do one single push-up.
I think if you did ask for one single push-up then the request doesn't make sense without there being more to the story.
I think it is very likely you were in a difficult situation with misbehaving campers and you reacted with at least one poor choice.
I think the camp made a business decision to prioritize their reputation over your employment.
I think it is in your best interest to try to put it behind you instead of stewing over it and polling strangers for opinions.
Best of luck.
Add: I see now that in a subsequent post you gave conflicting information. First you said "a push-up." Then you said "two push-ups, holding for 15 seconds." I find this concerning. As I said above, one push-up wouldn't make sense without more to the story. Now you've given a bit more to the story; rather, you've changed the story. Why are you asking for opinions based on misinformation? That is similar to cheating at solitaire.
You might have a case for wrongful dismissal.
Being fired from the fitness jobs sounds like a lawsuit though. Oh my goodness. Does anyone actually think this was not at-will employment? The company chose not to employ this man anymore based on his behavior. Encouraging a lawsuit does not help this man, and it might make it more difficult for him to accept the consequence of his choices and move on.
He had a right to discipline the child.
It is parents like you that are the problem.
He did not have a right to discipline the child. Perhaps you or I believe that the camp should allow such discipline. That is a different issue. Clearly the camp does not allow it. Thus he did not have a "right" to do it within the scope of his employment. Attacking a parent with an opinion on the thread doesn't change that. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 7:59:34 AM | | Apart from some of the other good points people have made, I wonder if also, since you mentioned this had been a summer job for you before and it is now September, maybe your boss was hoping or expecting you to be off her payroll by now anyway, as in previous years when you'd have been returning to school? Did they have to hire someone to replace you or was the position just terminated when you were? | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 8:05:46 AM |
When I was 10 years old, I was doing 250 pushups at a time and holding 5 seconds for the last 100. I was also swimming laps for 60-90 minutes nonstop. MANY kids these days are soft as pudding and if someone doesn't shape them up, they'll be dropping dead before they're 40. But that's Darwinism for you.
Two pushups? 30 seconds total? Cakewalk Um... When I was a kid I had to walk 10 miles to and from school every day, UPHILL BOTH WAYS in the SNOW! Oh, BTW.. I grew up in Texas!
That's very funny. Not. Just because you aren't able to do something, certainly doesn't mean anyone else can't. Why don't you come out and say what you're trying to say rather than leaving a jerky reply? The point is that this spoiled kid couldn't even do two pushups and make them last 30 seconds. I suppose you probably couldn't either, from the nature of your response here. What was this kid made of? Chicken fat? | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 8:16:39 AM |
The point is that this spoiled kid couldn't even do two pushups and make them last 30 seconds. Actually, the point is that the man had no business requiring push-ups. Whether or not the child was able to do so is irrelevant. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 8:26:47 AM | Hey there Lint Spotter,
you are completely right on your part. Like I mentioned earlier, and I hope people did read one of the statements I made is that, the parent has every right to get mad that I discipline her kid that. If I was a parent, I would be mad as well. I will admit that I made bad judgment by letting a kid do a pushup. And because of that, I understand that I got fired. What I also mentioned is that I had a second job in the fitness center as a fitness attendant. I have campers that would come into the center just to say Hi to me or give me a big hug..saying that they miss me. And as I was talking to some of my old campers (due to being fired) I was just seeing how everything is, and that same parent was walking in to pick up her kid from camp. When she saw me just talking to some of my campers, she didn't like that and decided to go back and talked to my old boss again, even after I was already fired. That is when my old boss told me that she had to terminate my membership and my other job as a fitness attendant. That part, I felt was not fair, because I was no longer as a camp counselor and I lose my other job, because of a parent.
Like I said, I lost my job as a camp counselor and I was reprimanded and its all good. But, to lose my second job for just interacting with my former campers and a parent to complain again, now I felt that it was unfair and I was not allowed to explain my side. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 9:33:23 AM |
But, to lose my second job for just interacting with my former campers and a parent to complain again, now I felt that it was unfair and I was not allowed to explain my side.
Here again...I don't know if you fitness job has "rules" pertaining to what level of "interaction" you should have with children...but this may or may not have anything to do with the loss of that job.
I'm sure you were harboring ill feelings towards both the parent and possibly the child that, in your opinion, caused you to lose your first job. Possibly, they felt uncomfortable. I'm not saying they should have or that you should have lost your second job for that.
BUT...the people that hired you and keep busy during their work day with the management of this camp and fitness center or whatever are now having to deal with a parent AGAIN as a result of your behavior. Whether the parent was justified, it was right or wrong doesn't matter. Your behavior caused the whole "snowball" to begin rolling down hill and growing in size.
Again...your employer made a choice to do damage control and wash their hands of the WHOLE situation. They could have asked the child to no longer receive services which, I'm sure, would have brought down a wrath they would be dealing with in perpetuity. Or simply let you go and bring peace and harmoy back to camp.
What did you expect them to do?
Your former boss probably offered the other job possibilities as she felf bad for your losses and didn't know of any other open positions. Their are guys my age...where I live...delivering pizza with their BS degree. Our economy has forced us to get passed pride to keep the wheels turning. Don't be offended by this gesture...it wasn't demeaning or racial.
Edit: You can sue anyone for anything...but with "at will" employment...the employer doesn't need a reason. In this case...we know of "reasons" and don't get to hear the employers side of the story.
FACT...The boss is NOT always right.........but, the boss is ALWAYS the boss. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 1:10:45 PM |
I made him do 2 push ups and had him hold for 15 seconds
I would say that you lost your job over it because this was not a discipline issue but, an abuse issue.
In the majority of jurisdictions, forcing a child to perfom repetetive physical tasks (meaning push-ups, stride jumps, and such) or forcing them to maintain an uncomfortable physical posture (meaning holding in a push-up position, support a weight with out-stretched arms, and such) are considered to be child abuse (because they are).
I would say you were fired because you crossed a major boundry and are lucky you weren't charged over it. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 1:56:38 PM | When I was 10 yrs old I could do 100 push ups , 100 sit ups , 100 pull ups and 100 chin ups.
I also water skied and worked on yachts as well as owning a lawn care business.
Be glad you are no-longer working for such ***holes..
Sue the pants off them.
Go talk to a good lawyer..
Good luck.. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 2:14:00 PM | I just wanted to say thanks for all the comments from everyone. You all made good points. I have moved on about it, I just decided to put it in the forum because it hurt me, but Im all good now. I cant dwell in the past, and I need to focus on the future. Several people on here mentioned that I should sue. I dont have any plans on suing anybody because I dont want to go through the process of litigation and pay a lawyer by the hour for a job that was paying me $9 an hour. I know I am better than that, and I will get something better. What I did was bad judgment in my part. I shouldnt had made the kid do those pushups and because of that I lost my job. It was fair.
I know many of you wouldve done different things, but I decided to let it go and move on, because their are better people out there that I want to associate myself with. I will be a bigger man in this situation and keep my chin up as well. You all gave me great advice, it was just in my head and I felt like I needed to tell a group of people whether its online or offline. I am focusing on pursuing other ventures out their and closing this chapter and learning from this experience.
Thanks!! | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 3:50:02 PM | OP, never let your ego or pride get in the way of getting food on the table at this time...
I can't say if you did the right thing or not. Yes, it is true that you had deviated from the norm, and perhaps 15 secs is to much...
The problem you have is what is called "hired at will", which also means fired at will... There can be a lot of things that are not known about your employment history, so there isn't much you can do...
Remember this is only temporary, and you will be able to move along during the rough times...
I have to remind my new husband of the same thing, because he gets beaten over the head with racism from time to time... He's a hard worker, so the younger men let him do all the work while they sit around on smoke breaks.... He gets so frustrated, and doesn't know what to do, or say...
I know that you were just trying to take care of a problem child, and YOU paid the price, which it seems that in the work world it is a written warning, or verbal, and then the next offense is dealt with through dismissal... However I don't know your work rules, nor do I know how much PULL clients have in who works where...
Good luck... | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 4:29:40 PM | | I think you're a good man btown. Thanks for trying to make the world a better place. One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to see the connection between the lack of discipline for little turds and the rate at which they are filling up our prisons when they become bigger turds. I'll pray that you soon find a much better job, where good deeds are not punished. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 4:45:32 PM | This is why people form unions. You probably have no recourse against an employer who dismisses you for what do not seem like very good reasons. That's America. You're on your own.
Union membership is at an all-time low. Less than 20% of the workforce now belongs to a labor union. You have no one to negotiate on your behalf. I have a friend who recently was required to work 80 hours a week and was threatened with being fired because he refused to work 84 hours that week. Everyone is a on contract instead of being an employee. They can be terminated without cause, have no benefits, and are often required to work evenings, weekends, and holidays. It didn't used to be like this.
By the way, I don't see why making a kid do a push-up is abusive. Maybe it was against some sort of written policy and so there's that to contend with, but he didn't hit the kid, didn't yell at him or call him names or belittle him.
I have no idea what to tell you except that you are in a so-called "right to work" state where there is even less regard for employees. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 5:42:59 PM |
This is why people form unions. They form unions to protect their jobs when they've broken not only the rules of the workplace but the law?
Uh huh...
By the way, I don't see why making a kid do a push-up is abusive. Maybe it was against some sort of written policy and so there's that to contend with, but he didn't hit the kid, didn't yell at him or call him names or belittle him. He centered this one child out in front of everyone to make an example of him... that's abusive. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 5:57:27 PM |
Like I said, I lost my job as a camp counselor and I was reprimanded and its all good. But, to lose my second job for just interacting with my former campers and a parent to complain again, now I felt that it was unfair and I was not allowed to explain my side.
You shouldn't have lost the 2nd job over that. You didn't break the rules. For your 1st job you did I guess.
Two pushups and hold for 15 seconds is nothing. I used to teach taekwondo, this is purely nothing compared to what martial arts training goes there. Parents babying their kids aren't going to solve the problem. In the long run the kid will probably have issues later on in life. Maybe making face a corner would have been a better thing to do.
Sounds like the mother has deep issues, no wonder the kid is messed up. Since when is hating a person a good thing? The mother was showing so much hate.
He centered this one child out in front of everyone to make an example of him... that's abusive.
No it's not. You misbehave your have to pay for your actions. There is a thing called life. | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 7:15:58 PM |
You misbehave your have to pay for your actions. There is a thing called life.
Yes...and the OP did.
Further...if send my child out of my sight to be in the care of other adults...and the level of care and/or treatment has been deviated from. How am I to know what other form of deviation from policy might take place in the future?
Even if I were to send them to one of those "boot camp" types of places...I would expect full disclosure of the policy and proceedures that exist and would expect no surprises.
You can always refuse service to these individuals that are not a "fit" for your program/camp.
Being fired from the fitness jobs sounds like a lawsuit though.
Where do you get this from? AT WILL employment. They don't have to give you a reason. They owe you nothing except compensation for the work you do.
The only way you are going to be able to gain from legal action is if they say..."I'm sorry...we have to let you go because you are (a man, a woman, black, white, hispanic, jewish, catholic etc...) and they are not going to state any of those reasons...even if it might be the reason.
Right...go find a lawyer...he'll take your $200 for your hours consult...then tell you that you don't have a case. A bad one might tell you that you do and charge considerably more for you to exhaust his efforts to get you NOWHERE.
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 9:01:43 PM | i agree with of the positive members of the board. there's a problem here. why would this woman or employer let you go after you have worked there before when you didn't have your college degree and now you have your degree she wants to let you go for this trivial stuff? you did not molest, flirt, steal or threaten anyone which is what she should be concerned with?
now, if you went "crazy" burning down the building, keying her car or slashing her tires!! please don't do it. these employers know they can get away with this stuff, since jobs are "at will" and they can abuse their employees. this is what you need to do: go to the eeoc and file complaint, call osha- place not safe or healthy for kids, go file for unemployment and file complaint and contact fair labor board. also, try contacting an employment lawyer through the legal aid.
this woman or jezebel will not give you a good reference, so don't go back over there asking for one or giving her as a reference when looking for jobs because she will bad mouth you. instead , use one of your college professors or a former co-worker or tell prospective employers you are self employed since college days. this way they will not have to call his man eater at the fitness joint.
i have a chance to work at a school but you have me really scared right now because i'm a strict disciplinarian (i don't believe in playing with kids).
yes, this sound like classic racism. for the folks who don't believe , close your eyes and cover your ears.
good luck, | |
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| This is how I lost my job folks, what do you think?
Posted: 9/14/2009 9:32:59 PM |
So, I decided to go back to one of my old summer jobs for the time being which is a camp counselor. In that same area, I was also a fitness attendant for members in the building. Well, as a camp counselor you are supposed to care of the kids,
1.. He has worked there before..... over .....3 years....
They took him back....... re employed him.... (dosen't sound like racism to me)
2.. supposed to care for the kids... ie there is a manadate there..in rules in how to care for the kids.... (I mean no offence here op.. cause you obviously have admitted.. (which I respect you greatly for admitting .. your part..) He.. knew the procedure and deviated from it.. ie instigated his own punishment.. beyond what the job rules were)..
We write them up, tell their parents, and a lot of times their parents dont care, and the kid comes back to camp causing more trouble.
One day, as a camp counselor I tried a different discipline
Op admits..this was outside.. what his instructions were...
The next day, I received a warning from my boss due to the kid's mom complaning and I though everything was ok, bc I got warning.
sounds like the op.... and boss talked...... both knew it was out of the protocol.. op..admits.. it.. but thinks it's a warning...
so far.. op.. knows ..... it was out of order..
no racism..
However, a couple hours later I get fired because the parent complained again without letting me defend myself. At the same time, I was working at fitness and the same parent saw me talking with some of my old campers and my old boss decided to terminate my membership and I lost two jobs
The parent... let's assume... had asked for the guy to be fired......from the first incident... ...then see's he is still employed.. so let's assume.. then goes and say's he is still working here?
so boss appeases the disgruntled parent... and terminates his employment...
Is it racism?... I can't see it from the little here in regards to the boss rehiring ... etc..
or is it dealing with a parent... who... is pissed off they're little darling.. was signalled out.... to be punsished.. by unagreed upon rules..
such as protocol.. if my kid acts up.. they get sent a letter..etc...
so.. as some have said on here... dealing with disgruntled parents ...really isn't worth the effort.. and if little johnny.. whinged to mum.. about having to do pushups....
maybe the parent threatened the camp boss.... and it was easier after parent's 2nd revenge complaint.. to let the employer go...
anyhoo.. The reason I suggested the op.. ask for a refference was 2 fold..
1... He would know in writing ... how his boss valued his work.. (and if left the incident of dismissal out).. or added it..... (dosen't hurt to ask in life.. )
2..He would know whether 3 years of his time/work... could be refferred too..
in seeking other employment..
If he got a good refference.... then surely he could ask why he was fired?
then go forward re any racism claim.. after eliminating all reasons..
but truly..
We are also supposed to disciplined them by writing them up if they misbehaved and contact their parents about what their child did. Well, there are several kids that I have worked with that are troublesome, they dont listen, and they are disrepectful. We write them up, tell their parents, and a lot of times their parents dont care, and the kid comes back to camp causing more trouble.
it sounds like more of a pissed off parent.. with a camp full of.. undisciplined kids...
I'm not sure he could prove whether the parent complaining was pissed off or racist..
but it seems the boss isn't//wasn't.......not after rehiring... and 3 year employment..
but... there is always more to things in life than a snippet to.. work out why humans do what they do..
personally.. I'm very proud of the op... and respect him.. for owning.. breaking protocol... and not being angry..revengeful..attitude..
I'd employ you.. hypothetically.. ...cause you admit mistakes and don't go blaming... etc..
if only the parent... could .... own.. their reasons.. on why.. they wanted him sacked..as opposed to being warned..etc..
not sure how one would prove the parent demand he be sacked,.... because of racism..
sorry about the post highlights op.. i don't know how i screwed it up to fix it...
peace | |
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